up next on american history tv, trail of tears association president jack baker talks about the forced relocation of native americans in the early 19th century. mr. baker, a member of the cherokee nation, also discusses his own family's voluntary move to oklahoma. this talk is part of an all day conference, part of the university of oklahoma center for the study of american indian law and policy and preservation of virginia. >> it now gives me great pleasure to introduce jack baker. he is a former member of the tribal council of the cherokee nation where he served for 11 years representing those cherokee citizens residing outside of the cherokee nation. he is the national president of the trail of tears association. he is also the current president of the oklahoma historical

society and serves on a number of other boards. he has done extensive cherokee research for more than 50 years and has authored various articles and edited various books on cherokee history. i can say that he continued his research even yesterday at the library of virginia. it gives me great pleasure to invite jack baker. [ applause ] >> thanks, elizabeth. it is an honor to be part of this symposium but i come before you as a citizen of the united states and also a citizen of the cherokee nation. and i'm an eighth generation

oklahoman because of the trail of tears. at the time of our forced removal, the cherokees owned farms and even large plantations. as lindsey pointed out, almost our constitution was adopted in 1827, patterned after the united states and with se yoi ya's invention as lindsey also stated, almost every family of the cherokee nation had at least one member and it compares to the high illiteracy rates surrounding the cherokee nation. skm so with the publication in 1828 of our newspaper, the cherokee

phoenix, the cherokees became well informed on the issues of removal. by 1819 our people had seated 19% of our original lands. lindsey pointed this out also. by the time of removal, the little dark area at the bottom, was all that was left. so these remaining lands we sought to keep while our white neighbors sought to have them removed. the u.s. supreme court in its 1832 decision, wooster versus georgia, recognized the sovereignty of the cherokee nation, yet even this did not save us from the treaty signed by a handful of cherokees. with major ridge as one of the

leaders. congress ratified this treaty by only a single vote. it was signed by president andrew jackson on may 23rd. and the cherokees were given two years from that date to remove. our principal chief and tribal council continue in their efforts to oppose removal but to no avail. in late 1838 general winfield scott and his troops began to round up our people. removal force had been constructed throughout the cherokee nation as places to temporarily contain the cherokees as they were gathered up for removal. several of these forces were constructed a couple years before during the creek removal. several hundred creeks had fled into the cherokee nation to

avoid removal and soldiers went throughout the cherokee nation in an attempt to find them. so it is sometimes questioned as to why the cherokees didn't go ahead and remove as they were aware of the force being constructed. reverend steven foreman, who was a half-blood cherokee, who had been educated in the mission schools in the cherokee nation and later at princeton, wrote the following letter to the american mission board in boss -- boston. it was may 31st of 1838. candy's creek mission. reverend david green. it says, very dear sir, from the date of my letter, you're perceived that i am still in the cherokee nation east and still of the neighborhood of the candy creek mission. how much longer we should be permitted to remain here in our own lands and enjoy our rights

and privileges i do not know. from the present aspect of affairs, we shall very soon be without house and home. indeed, ever since the 23rd of may we've been looking almost daily for the soldiers to come and turn us out of our houses. they have already warned us to make arrangements and come into the camps before we were forced to do so, but i have stated distinctly to the officers at headquarters what i thought of this so-called treaty and what course i intend to pursue in the event that no new treaty was made and i see no reasons yet why i should change my mind. my determination and the determination of a large majority of the cherokee nation is never to recognize this fraudulent instrument as a

treaty, nor remove under it until we are forced to do so at the point of the bayonet. it may seem unwise and hazardous to the framers and friends of this instrument that we should pursue such a course, but i am fully satisfied it is the only one we can pursue with a clear conscience. reverend daniel butrick who had been with the cherokees almost 20 years wrote in his journal on saturday, may 26th, in georgia we're supposed to be about 8,000 cherokees. these in general were taken just as they were found by the soldiers without permission to stop either for friends or property. as the soldiers advanced towards the house, two little children fled in fright to the woods. the women pleaded for permission to seek them or wait until they came in, giving positive assurances she would then follow

on and join the company but all treaties remain. and it was not until a day or two after she would get permission from one of her friends to go back after her lost children. a man deaf and dumb, being surprised at the approach of armed men, attempted to make his escape and because he did not hear and obey the command of his pursuers was shot dead on the spot. women, absent from their families from visits were seized and men far from their wives and children were not allowed to children. also children being forced from home were dragged off among strangers. cattle, horses, hogs, household furniture, clothing, and money, not with them when taken were left. and it's said that the white inhabits around stood with open arms to seize whatever property they could put their hands on.

some few who had friends to speak for them, insisted afterwards in getting some part of their lost goods. thus, in two or three days about 8,000 people, many of whom were in good circumstances, and some rich, were rendered homeless, houseless and penniless and exposed to all of the ills of captivity. and a few months later, the wife of dr. iliza butler, wrote to a childhood friend in massachusetts . butler was a missionary and was in prison and was happy to see lindsey mentioned him as part of this. because -- i assume it's because the case is wooster versus georgia, because unfortunately his sacrifice for the most part has been overlooked. but part of lucy's letter

written from tennessee, states, i grieve the intermissionry laborers in 1927 and lived among the cherokees and began teaching and remained there until 1830 and we moved to a mission station just west of that city in georgia. here i had not lived a year before my husband was shut up in prison by the authorities of georgia. for refusing to take an oath to support their measures against the cherokee. or to leave his situation or his station which was in the charter limits of that state. after laboring nearly a year and a half in the penitentiary, he returned to the missionary labors among the cherokees but in a little more than a year, this same law which had sent him

to prison found means to break up our mission station. we then had an invitation from the cherokees to commence a station at this place that is red clay, tennessee, and the method of taking the cherokees as prisoners were various. she goes on to state it was common for a party of soldiers with a wagon attached to the train to be sent to a certain neighborhood. on arriving at a house, the inmates were ordered to march, sometimes they were allowed to take some light articles to be conveyed in the wagon, but many times they were not suffered long enough to take as much as a change of clothes with them. if their horses were at hand, they were often permitted to ride them. but as often as not, they were driven at point at the point of

the bayonet. if parents couldn't carry their children on horses or their own backs, they were ordered to get into the wagon. if any reluctance was shown by them, they were thrown in by the soldiers. and then driven over the rough road with such speed that in some instances they had been severely injured. perhaps the prisoners were driven from -- with more hayes from their dwellings on account of the frequent rumor of indian hostilities. the fear of this and the suspicion that cherokees would secret themselves had led soldiers to gather neighborhoods in the night. to accomplish this they would enter a cherokee dwell and the family in the midst of their slumbers would be aroused for their march. they would be grouped together the aged, inferm, middle-aged, youth and children of all sizes.

they would gather the people in such hayes, whether by night or day, has been the occasion of much distress and loss of property. husbands and wives, parents and children, have been separated and carried off to different camps where they know nothing of each other for weeks or months. they were first taken to the 31 stock aids constructed throughout the cherokee nation and the conditions were deplorable. people had no shelter. only a few blankets that the people were able to grab as they were being forced from their homes and inadequate food. these stockaids were referred to as concentration camps. from the holding stockades they were taken to 11 internment camps, ten were in tennessee and the remaining one was in

alabama. on may 31st, reverend butrick of michigan, tells of one group being taken to the internment camps. he states, astoundingly, a little before sunset, a company of about 200 cherokees were driven into our lane. the day had been rainy, and, of course, all men, women and children were dripping wet with no change of clothing and scarcely a blanket fit to cover them. as some of the women when taken from their houses had on their poorest dress. this of course was the amount of their clothing for a journey of about 800 miles. as soon as permission was obtained from the officers we opened every door to these poor sufferers. mothers brought their dear little babes to our fire and stripped off their only covering

to dry. oh, how heart rendering was the sight of those little sufferers, their little lips blue and trembling with cold, be seemed yet to form a smile of gratitude for this kind reception. i would like to tell you how the removal affected my fourth great-grandfather james hair. the family tradition states that his mother-in-law lindsey ratley, gave birth to a baby girl right after removal or after the roundup started and while being driven to one of the internment camps she became too weak to go any further and refused to cross a stream. she was stabbed by one of the soldiers and died soon after. and reverend butler reported in his journal almost identical

story, he states, we also learned when the last company were taken over the river at ross's landing, a woman in the pangs of childbirth stood and walked as long as possible and then fell on the bank of the river. a soldier coming up stabbed her with his bayonet which together with other pains soon caused her death. james had married her daughter only a few months before and lindsey's other five children accompanied james and his wife on the forced removal and was reared by them. so in mid-june, three groups of about 800 each started west from ross's landing in chattanooga, tennessee. two went by water and the other crossed the upper part of moccasin bend on the old fedder road. of that group only 635 arrived in the west with 146 deaths and

two births being recorded. there's a severe drought at the time with extreme heat and james harris mother katey north along with her father was in this group. her father, william north, was a white man who married a cherokee woman about 60 years before. a couple months before he had been described as being upwards of 100 years and completely blind for the last 25 years. there's no record of his arriving in the west. however, in a series of interviews conducted in the chattanooga area around 1900, mr. a.g. carter tells this story. a white man named north married an indian and later became blind. he, says mr. carter, heard they threw him in the river on the way west because he was so much trouble. but because of the high

casualties of these first groups, permission was given to the later removal of the other groups until fall when it would be cooler. also the cherokee leaders petitioned general scott that they be allowed to conduct their own removal. permission was granted. james harris' father, harold conrad, was the leader of the first detachment to lead that fall. however, he soon became too ill to continue as a leader and had to relinquish the position. james harris' sister, betty, the wife of ashhopper, traveled in richard taylor's detachment and reverend butrick also accompanied this attachment, wrote in his journal saturday, december 1, 1838, on a thursday, two children, one a daughter of our dear sister ashhopper were called into eternity.

so james harris now lost his grandfather, his wife's mother and his niece. and by this time the extreme heat of summer had given way to an unseasonably cold winter, and the reverend further wrote on december 26th, it is said the detachment south of the mississippi are stopped by floating ice and mr. hillbrand's attachment stopped by the same means at the ohio river. december 27th, we proceeded with the detachment, about six miles where we camped for the week. here the snow increased to three or four inches and the weather was excessively cold. lucy butler, in the same letter that i mentioned earlier, written on december 20th states, my husband has preached among the cherokees and attended on them as physician since they were first taken.

last summer by their request he was appointed a physician by general scott in a camp about eight miles from our station. and after arrangements were made for the cherokee to remove themselves, he was appointed by mr. ross to serve as physician and accompany them on the way west. the last letter i have was from jonesburg, illinois, on the 19th of november, about 20 miles this side of the mississippi, did not accomplish quite half their journey at that time. did have considerable sickness. about 27 of their number lay buried between that place and the one where they commenced their journey. during this time, george hicks, one of the conductors of the removal detachment sent the following letter to headquarters

in asay -- in salem, north carolina, 13th of january, 1839. my dear friend and brother, we left the cherokee nation east, the land of our nativity on the first day of last november, took up the line of our march to the far west and through the mercies of a providence who is ever ready to assist the oppressed and ears ever open to their cries, have arrived thus far on our journey to the west. the fall and winter has been very cold and we have unnecessarily suffered a great deal from exposure from cold and fatigue. our people, a great many of them were very poor and very destitute of clothing, and of the means of rendering themselves comfortable. we done all in our power to remedy their destitute situation and contributed very much to their comfort by supplying them

so far as we could with clothing, blankets and shoes. but still, we have suffered a great deal with sickness and have lost since the 21st of october about 35, a great proportion of them were aged and children. our numbers were probably over 1100, so a larger amount to attend to, to their want and watch over, caused a great deal of care and causes a great anxiety of mind and so much responsibility added to the fatigue of traveling brought up a spell of sickness from which i thought i should not recover. but through the all-white providence, i have recovered my health. we are now lying about 20 miles of the mississippi river which

we could not cross on account of the ice. we have been lying about for two weeks and not traveling on account of there being ahead of us two deach tachmentes of cherokees that must cross before we can cross. mississippi full of large quantities of floating ice which at times it's impassable. but still they keep crossing and i'm in hopes we'll get over in one or two weeks. we will start in the morning again on our journey west. the roads are all in very bad order as the ground was frozen very deep and there has been, for the last ten days, a general thaw, not even any frost, together with a good deal of wet which will probably make the roads almost impassable. but we must necessarily calculate on suffering a great deal from hardship and exposure before we yet reach our homes in the far west.

we look to the almighty for strength and protection to enable us to reach the place of destination. as yet we are hardly halfway. and to look forward on the determination of our journey and our toils, we cannot yet but hope for the best. respectfully george hicks. our principal chief, john ross, left last after he had seen all the other cherokees on their way west. he traveled by steamboat with a small group of cherokees in order to take those who had been too ill to leave with the regular detachments. and while the various detachments were waiting to cross the mississippi river, he visited the camps, and he wrote the following account. on my arrival with the water detachment at paducah, i received letters from various persons connected with some of

the first houses in nashville informed me that it was understood the land detachments had been stopped at the mississippi river by ice. and for various reasons it would be most advisable to transport the immigrants at that point by water. therefore, they sent me proposals for furnishing the steamboats for that purpose. from the mouth of the ohio i also received letters from mr. clark jr., one of my principal agents on the route and other persons, all urging me in the most pressing terms to visit the detachments that were still detained at or near willards ferry on the mississippi river. as my presence among the people was indispensebly necessary to remove any embarrassments out of certain tales calculated to deter them from pursuing their journey in missouri on roads that were said

to be very bad and would be impossible to procure supplies for themselves and their horses. these reports were expected to be put in circulation with the view of creating alarms among the people that they might insist on taking water at that point. and note that these rumors were started by the first families of nashville which, i'm sure most of you remember, is the home of andrew jackson. so these were his cronies, many of whom made a great deal of money on the earlier removals of the other tribes and they were seeking to profit more from the cherokee removal. so it was also suggested it might be deemed advisable to transfer some of the sick to the water detachment. i therefore deemed it my duty to repair to them without hesitation. at first i determined the

propriety of running the boat up to the williams ferry to retrieve most of the sick. but the captain of the boat advised against it for reasons that neither himself nor the pilot knew anything of the navigation of that part of the mississippi river. so passage on a boat of ascending the river and leaving he underlined my sick family with the other immigrants to wait my return which should be as speedily as possible. about 12:00 that night, i was landed at willards ferry, where i met with mr. clark and my brother lewis and others in the immigration and who i yasser stated that the detachment had crossed the river and were then in camp a short distance off. george hicks, peter hildebrand and richard taylor's detachment had not yet crossed for that purpose.

i directed it to be distinctly made known that no change could or would be made from completing the journey by land, and that was evident these alarming tales about the roads to missouri were in great measure magnified for effect. but however true the scarcity and high prices for supplies immediately on the road might prove to be, that supplies should be procured, cost what they would. if they were to be had at all within reach of their travel. they took up the march the next morning which was done accordingly. i might added that while the cherokees were in charge of their own removal, there was never any complaint of lack of food on the way. and ross goes on to say, the boats generally laden, it could not be prevailed upon to stop

and take me on board. after thus being detained two or three days, i determined not to wait any longer for passage by water, and i procured the loan of a horse and rode three days by boat accompanied by my brother. and the next morning after my return, we slipped cable. within a week from that time -- the underlining was by ross -- my children became motherless and the remains of mrs. ross were left in a strange land. his wife died near little rock, arkansas, and she was buried in little rock. three of the 12 detachments arrived in the cherokee nation in january, did cross the mississippi before the ice stopped the other detachments. the others arrived in february and march. it's often been estimated that as many as 4,000 of the 16,000

cherokees died as a result of the forced removal. there appears to have been only about 1200 deaths due to the actual removal, however, there are many additional deaths immediately following the removal that reduced the population of the cherokee nation by at least an additional 1600 people. so there were at least close to 3,000 deaths caused by the removal. in may of 1825, the cherokees had passed an act imposing a death penalty on anyone who should propose a sale for the exchange of their lands. after their arrival in the present cherokee nation, a group of cherokees met secretly and sent its various members of the treaty party to death based on that law. major ridge, along with his son john ridge, and his nephew elias boudinot were all executed at

various places on june 22nd of 1839 and one of the executioners of major ridge was james hair. so the trail of tears is an example of what can happen when prejudice combines with greed. it was a direct result of the supreme court decision in wooster versus georgia being ignored. while we as cherokees faced a great adversity of the forced removal, we survived. we immediately began to reestablish our nation. we were able to adapt to our new lands and prosper in them, and chief hoskin after lunch will talk about the rebuilding of our nation and who we are today. so this ability of our people to survive and adapt is a true

story of the trail of tears and how we wish it to be remembered. thank you. [ applause ] >> are there any questions? >> i'd like to thank you for sharing with us that very tragic story, and my name is steven atkins. i'm chief of the chickahawnee tribe. it really just illuminates the blood-thirsty gamers who landed in 1867. less than three years later lord delaware ordered the annihilation of the tried and by 1699, nine out of ten of the virginia woodland indians had perished. so this, the story that you told, really resonates with me because forced removal for the

chickahawnee indians started in 1646 and the department of education across the states, have skillfully, artfully, left out that history, so we're surrounded by dominant culture that's largely ignorant of the tragedies that occurred among the indigenous people beginning may 14th, 1607. >> thank you. [ applause ] >> we've had the same problem in our oklahoma textbooks at least when i was growing up, virtually nothing about the indian tribes. for oklahoma history, adversity started with the land runs in our lands in 1889. they've improved somewhat but not to the degree they should. >> what is the status of those cherokees that did not do -- were not -- because of various

reasons, either they married a white person and did not do the trail of tears. my understanding is they are not on the cherokee register and there's no way they can be on the cherokee register because they did not do the trail of tears for a multitude of reasons? >> right. it was mentioned earlier by lindsey in the one question about taking citizenship, lindsey mentioned the 1835 treaty provided that if a person was able that he could apply and then become a citizen of the state and remain in the nation. excuse me, remain in georgia or some of the other states. i think there were about 150 in georgia that elected to do this. but he also mentioned they gave up their citizenship in the tribe to become citizens of the u.s.

so while they are of cherokee descent, they're not eligible for citizenship in the cherokee nation because of that, because our role is based on residency and our citizens in 1902. and i liken it to the fact that i have german ancestors, and so i have german descent, but i certainly am not going back to germany and declare that i'm a german citizen. >> thank you. i have a question regarding the native americans having plantations you mentioned, and also, were there united states laws regarding native americans

owning or having enslaved africans or african-americans? also, were there enslaved african-americans who moved along with you during the migration to the north and to the west? >> yes. there were a few cherokees who did own african-american slaves during this period. the ones with the larger plantations for the most part shipped or made sure that their slaves which, unfortunately, they considered valuable property, they made sure they made it to the cherokee west without any problems. but there were a few cherokees who owned maybe one or two african-americans, and they accompanied them on the trail. in butrick's journal, when he was accompanied on the richard taylor detachment, he even describes at one point where he

hired an african-american lady from the owner to do some washing for him and his wife. so we don't -- we recognize that there were many african-americans on the removal of the five tribes, but unfortunately there is not a lot of documentation or stories with them. we would like to include more of those stories as we find them. thank you. [ applause ] weeknights this month, we're featuring american history tv programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on c-span3. tonight the space shuttle's 40th anniversary. on april 12, 1981, space shuttle columbia lift off from florida's kennedy space center with two crew members aboard. in celebration of this feat we

start with the 1979 nasa film "where dreams come true." the film highlights the contributions of women and minorities' contributions to nasa. watch tonight beginning at 8:00 eastern and enjoy american history tv every weekend on c-span3. american history tv on c-span3.éñ every weekend documenting america's story. funding for american history tv comes from these companies who support c-span3 as a public service. up next, stony brook history professor paul kelton talked about how cholera spread from southeast asia to europe to the americas in 1830s, affecting millions of