were driven into our lane. the day had been rainy and of course all men, women, and children were dripping wet.

with no change of clothing and scarcely a blanket fit to cover them. as some of the women, when taken from their houses, had on their poorest dress, this, of course, was the amount of their clothing for a journey of about 800 miles. as soon as permission was obtained from the officers, we opened every door to these poor sufferers. mothers brought their dear little babes to our fire and stripped off their only covering to dry. oh, how heart rending was the sight of those little sufferers, their little lips blue and trembling with cold seemed yet to form a smile of gratitude for this kind reception. so, i'd like to tell you how the removal affected by fourth great-grandfather, james hare.

family tradition states that his mother-in-law gave birth to a baby girl right after removal or after the round-up started and while being driven to one of the internment camps, she became too weak to go any further and refused to cross a stream. she was stabbed by one of the soldiers and died soon after. and the reverend at this time recorded in his journal an almost identical story but does not name the woman. he states, we also learned that when the last company were taken over the river, ross's landing, the woman in the pains of childbirth stood and walked as long as possible and then fell on the bank of the river. the soldier coming up stabbed her with his bayonet, which together with other pains soon caused her death. james hare had married her daughter only a few months before and lizzy's other five children accompanied james and

his wife on the forced removal and was reared by them. so in mid-june, three groups of about 800 each were started west from ross's landing in present chattanooga, tennessee. two by moccasin bend and the other across the upper part of moccasin bend on the old federal road. of that group, only 635 arrived in the west with 146 deaths and 2 births being recorded. there was a severe crowd at the time with extreme heat, and james's mother, katie north, along with her father, was in this group. her father, william north, was a white man who had married a cherokee woman about 60 years before. a couple of months before, he had been described as being upwards of 100 years and completely blind for the last 25 years.

there's no record of his arriving in the west. however, in a series of interviews conducted in the chattanooga area around 1900, a mr. a.g. carter tells this story. a white man named north married an indian and later became blind. he, that is, mr. carter, heard that they threw him in the river and drowned him on the way west because he was so much trouble. but because of the high casualties of these first groups, permission was given to the later removal of the other groups until fall when it would be cooler. also, the cherokee leaders petitioned general scott that they be allowed to conduct their own removal. permission was granted. james hare's father, hare conrad, was the leader of the first detachment to leave that

fall. however, he soon became too ill to continue as leader and had to relinquish the position. james hare's sister, betsy, the wife of ash hopper, traveled in richard taylor's detachment and the reverend, who also accompanied this detachment, wrote in his journal on saturday, december 1, 1838, on thursday, two children, one a daughter of our dear sister, ash hopper, were called into eternity. so, james hare has now lost his grandfather, his wife's mother, and his niece. and by this time, the extreme heat of summer had given way to an unseasonably cold winter. the reverend further wrote, on december 26th, it is said the detachments throughout the mississippi are stopped by floating ice and mr. hildebrand's attachment is

stopped by the same means at the ohio river. december 27th, we proceeded with the detachment about six miles where we camped for the week. here the snow increased for 3 or 4 inches and the weather was excessively cold. lucy butler in the same letter that i mentioned earlier, written on december 20th, states, my husband has preached among the cherokees and attended on them as physician since they were first taken. last summer, by their request, he was appointed a physician by general scott in a camp about eight miles from our station. and after arrangements were made for the cherokees to remove themselves, he was appointed by mr. ross to serve as physician and accompany on their way to the west. the last letter i had from him was mailed in jonesboro,

illinois, on the 19th of november, about 20 miles inside of the mississippi. did not accomplish quite half their journey at that time. they had had considerable sickness. about 27 of their number lay buried between that place and the one where they commenced their journey. and during this time, george hicks, one of the conductors of removal detachment and a member of the moravian church, sent the following letter to the moravian headquarters salem, north carolina, from johnson county, illinois, 13th of january, 1839. my dear friend and brother, we left the cherokee nation east, the land of our nativity, on the first day of last november and took up the line of our march for the far west and through the mercies of an all-wise providence, who is ever ready to assist the oppressed, and whose ear is ever open to their cries,

have arrived thus far on our journey to the west. the following winter has been very cold, and we have necessarily suffered a great deal from exposure from cold and fatigue. our people, a great many of them were very poor and very destitute of clothing and of the means of rendering themselves comfortable. we've done all in our power to remedy the destitute situation and contributed very much to their comfort by supplying them so far as we could with clothing, blankets, and shoes. but still, we have suffered a great deal with sickness and have lost since the 21st of october last about 35, a great proportion of them were the aged and children. our numbers are probably over

1,100, and so large a train to attend to, to their want and to watch over required a great deal of care and industry and causes a great anxiety of mind, and so much responsibility add to the fatigue of traveling brought upon me a spell of sickness from which i thought i should not recover but through the mercies of an all-wise providence, i have in a good deal recovered my health. we are now lying about 20 miles to the mississippi river, which we cannot cross on account of the ice. we have been lying by about two weeks, have not been traveling on account of there being ahead of us two detachments of cherokees who must cross before we can cross. the mississippi has been full of large quantities of floating ice which at times it's impassable. but still, they keep crossing, and i am in hopes we will get

over in one or two weeks. we will start in the morning again on our journey west. the roads are all in a very bad order, as the ground was frozen very deep and there has been for the last ten days a general thaw, not even any frost, together with a good deal of wet which will probably make the roads almost impassable. but we must necessarily calculate on suffering a great deal from hardship and exposure before we yet reach our homes in the far west. we look to the almighty for strength and protection to enable us to reach the place of destination as yet we are hardly halfway and to look forward on the determination of our journey and our toils, we can yet hope for the best. it's our principal chief, john

ross, left last after he had seen all of the other cherokees on their way west. he traveled by steam boat with a small group of cherokees in order to take those who had been too ill to leave with the regular detachments. and while the various detachments were waiting to cross the mississippi river, he visited the camps, and he wrote the following account. on my arrival with the water detachment, i received letters from various persons connected with some of the first houses in nashville informing me that it was understood many of the land detachments had been stopped at the mississippi river by ice. and for various reasons, it would be most advisable to transport the immigrants from that point by water. therefore, they sent me proposals for furnishing the steam boats for that purpose. at the mouth of the ohio, i also

received letters from mr. clark jr., one of my principal agents on the route and other persons, all urging me in the most pressing terms to visit the detachments that were still detained at or near willard's ferry on the mississippi river. as my presence among the people was indispensably necessary to remove many embarrassments growing out of certain tales, calculated to deter them from pursuing their journey through missouri on roads represents to be very bad, it would be impossible to procure supplies for the subsistence of themselves and horses. these reports were suspected to have been put in circulation with the view of creating alarms among the people that they might insist on taking water at that point. and note that these rumors were started by the first teams of nashville. i'm sure most of you remember, it's the home of andrew jackson,

and so these were his cronies, many of whom made a great deal of money on the earlier removals of the other tribes, and so they were seeking to profit more from the cherokee removal. so, it was also -- ross says, it was also suggested it might be deemed advisable to transfer some of the sick to the water detachment. therefore, deemed it my duty to repair to them without hesitation. at first, i determined on the propriety of running the boat up to willard's ferry with a view of receiving much of the sick as might wish to go by water. but the captain of the boat advised against it for reasons that neither himself nor the pilot knew anything at the navigation of that part of the mississippi river. so i took passage on a boat that was on the eve of ascending the river and leaving, he has underlined, my sick family with

the other immigrants to await my return which should be as speedily as possible. about 12:00 that night, i was landed at willard's ferry where i met with mr. clark, my brother, louis, and others in the employee of the immigration and from whom i ascertained that one detachment had crossed the river and were then enkafrmed a short distance off and that george hicks, peter hildebrand, and richard taylor's detachment had not yet crossed but were in readiness for the purpose. i directed it to be distinctly made known that no change could be made from completing the journey by land and it was evident these alarming tales about the roads from missouri were in great measure magnified for effect. but however true the scarcity and high prices for supplies immediately on the road might prove to be, that supplies should be procured, cost what

they would. if they were to be had at all within reach of the route of their travel. preparations were then directed for taking up the line of march the next morning, which was done accordingly. and i might add that while the cherokees were in charge of their own removal, there's never any complaint of lack of food on the way. and ross goes on to say that ascending boats returned laden could not be prevailed upon to stop and take me on board. after thus being detained two or three days, i determined not to wait any longer for passage by water, and i procured the loan of a horse, rode down in two days to the boat accompanied by my brother. and the next morning, after my return, we slipped cable. within a week from that time, the underlining is by ross, my

children became motherless and the remains of mrs. ross were left in a strange land. his wife died near little rock, arkansas, and she was buried in little rock. three of the 12 detachments arrived in the cherokee nation during january, did cross the mississippi before the ice stopped the other detachments. the others arrived in february and march. it's often been estimated that as many as 4,000 of the 16,000 cherokees died as a result of the forced removal. their appears to have been only about 1,200 deaths during the actual removal. however, there were many additional deaths immediately following the removal that reduced the population of the cherokee nation by at least an additional 1,600 people. so, there were at least close to 3,000 deaths caused by the removal. in may of 1825, the cherokees

had passed an act imposing a death penalty on anyone who should propose a sale in exchange of their lands. after their arrival in the present cherokee nation, a group of cherokees met secretly and sentenced various members of the treaty party to death based on that law. major ridge along with his son, john ridge and his nephew, elias boudinot, were all executed at various places on june 22nd of 1839. and one of the executioners of major ridge was james hare. so, the trail of tears is an example of what can happen when prejudice combines with greed. it was a direct result of the supreme court decision in

worcester vs. georgia being ig in order. while we as cherokees faced a great adversity of the forcd removal, we survived. we immediately began to re-establish our nation. we were able to adapt to our new lands and prosper in them, and chief hoskins after lunch will talk about the rebuilding of our nation and where we are today. so, this ability of our people to survive and adapt is a true story of the trail of tears and how we wish it to be remembered. thank you. >> so, are there any questions? >> i'd like now to thank you for sharing with us that very tragic story. my name is steven atkins, and it

just really illuminates the bloodthirsty, land grabbing invaders that set foot at jamestown on may 14, 1607. and less than three years later, lord delaware ore ordered the annihilation of a tribe and by 1699, nine out of ten of the virginia woodland indians had perished so this -- the story that you told really resonates with me because forced removal for us and other virginia indians occurred in 1646, and the department of education across the states has skillfully, artfully left out that history so we're surrounded by dominant culture that's largely ignorant of the tragedies that occurred among the indigenous people, beginning may 14, 1607. >> thank you.

we've had the same problem in our oklahoma textbooks. at least when i was growing up, there's virtually nothing about the indian tribes. in oklahoma history, it virtually started with the land runs and our lands in 1889, but they've improved somewhat but not to the degree that they should. >> what is the status of those cherokees that did not do the -- were not -- because of various reasons, either they married a white person and did not do the trail of tears, my understanding is they're not on the cherokee register and no way those people can be on the cherokee register because they did not do the trail of tears for a multitude of reasons. >> right. and it was mentioned earlier by lindsey and in the one question about taking citizenship. of course, as lindsey mentioned, the 1835 treaty provided that if

a person was able, that he could apply and then become a citizen of the state and remain in the nation. excuse me, remain in georgia or some of the other states. i think there were about 150 in georgia that elected to do this. but since he also mentioned, they gave up their citizenship in the tribe to become citizens of the u.s. so, while they are cherokee descent, they're not eligible for citizenship in the cherokee nation because of that, because our role is based on residency, and our citizens in 1902. and i liken it to the fact that i have german ancestors, and so i have some german descent. but i certainly am not going

back to germany and declaring that i'm a german citizen. so, by bringing up the citizenship, it was the same thing. >> thank you. i have a question regarding the native americans having plantations you mentioned and also were there united states laws regarding native americans owning or having enslaved africans or african-americans? and also, were there enslaved african-americans who moved along with you during the migration to the north and to the west? >> yes. >> thank you. >> there were a few cherokees who did own african-american slaves during this period. the ones with the larger

plantations for the most part shipped or made sure that their slaves, which unfortunately they considered valuable property, they made sure that they made it to the cherokee nation west without any problems. but there were a few cherokees that owned maybe one or two african-americans and they accompanied them on the trail and in the jumper, when he was accompanied on the richard taylor detachment, he even describes at one point where he hired an african-american lady from the owner to do some washing and all for him and his wife. so, we don't -- teresa trail of tears association, we recognize there were many african-americans on the removals of the five tribes, but unfortunately, there's not a lot of documentation or stories with

them. we would like to be more -- to include more of those stories. as we find them. thank you. >> thank you. weeknights this months, we're featuring american history tv programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on c-span3. tonight, the space shuttle's 40th anniversary. on april 12, 1981, space shuttle columbia lifted off from florida's kennedy space center with two crew members aboard. in celebration of this feat, we start with a 1979 nasa film "where dreams come true." the film highlights the contributions of women and minorities to nasa and much of the work depicted in the film relates to the fledgling space shuttle program. watch tonight, beginning at 8:00 eastern and enjoy american history tv every weekend on c-span3.

c-spanshop.org, go to order a copy of the congressional directory, a compound spiral bound book with contact information for every member of congress, including bios and committee assignments. also contact information for state governors and the biden administration cabinet. order your copy at c-spanshop.org. up next, stony brook history professor paul kelton talks about how cal cholera spread. we talked with him at the annual meeting in sacramento, california, in 2018. >> paul kelton, professor of history at stonybrook university and the author of a number of books, including "epidemics and enslavements." let's talk about the