american history tv on c-span3. every weekend, documenting america's story. funding for american history tv comes from these companies who support c-span3 as a public service. in 1620, the mayflower traveled from plymouth, england, to america and the pilgrims settled the plymouth colony on the coast of massachusetts. we talked to robert stone about the virtual mayflower project which uses virtual reality to re-create the ship and the harbor from which it set sail. professor stone describes what life might have been like for the pilgrims and crew. some of the historic features we'll see in the virtual rendering are the 17th century

port called the barbacan, plymouth castle and the speedwell. a ship that was set to sail with the mayflower to america buts but deemed unsea worthy and returned to sport. >> 1620 has been about trying to use virtual reality to bring a part of england, plymouth, in the southwest of the country, back to life, so that the people who lived there and people who experience it, experienced what it was like for pilgrims in their mammoth journey across the atlantic in 1620. what it was like for them. what was the last thing they saw before they got on this leaky, creaky ship and made their way out to the atlantic all those centuries ago? >> we're going to jump right in and take a look at some of those 360s. >> where we are here at the

moment is near newkey. if you move to the right slightly, you can just about make out the mast of the speedwell. we thought we'd leave the speedwell, looking very sorry for herself, listing to port in the harbor where there was a lot of shipwork and ship repairs going on. the structure you're seeing right now with these fine people having a chat, this is reminiscent of an old fish market. in fact, there was a fish market in the barbercon right up to the 1960s. a lot of fish would be brought and filleted. if they could afford to be filleted. that would be done here. ships would be out delivering all their fish into the fish filleting crew who would box

tup, put it onto wagons or take it to some of the stores that would have been available outside the buildings that are, in fact, behind. we're looking at this image. but again, you can see we're trying to make it look -- you can see the "speedwell," the remains of the "speedwell" there. it's quite dirty. obviously, an awful lot of mud. not very hygienic. today, most of this will be covered by paving slabs or concrete, but in 1620, there was very little of that. and a lot of wood. a lot of wooden -- a lot of wooden keys and docking areas would have been there. now just on the left would be the location of jacker's bakery.

jacker's bakery still exists. it's the oldest bakery in the uk. and jacker's bakery would have provided some of the snacks and biscuits and food for the pilgrims that they would have taken on board the "mayflower" for their final journey. it still sells a variety of breads and biscuits and pastries and pies even today. it's a very popular bakery on the barbercon. many pubs will come on to one of the streets a little bit later on which is historically renowned for its pubs. and a lot of accommodation. it's a lot of the people who live in this area would have been fishermen and their wives would help them to prepare the fish, sell the fish. so a lot of the fronts of these houses, these dwellings would have been covered, had we had time, would have been covered

with shelves selling all kinds of things from wine to, obviously, to fish. just as -- we're now getting closer to the barbercon gate. you can see the "mayflower." it's in the distance. the "mayflower" is more in an area, we'll see it in the cat water. we'll see the location of the current catwater harbors, catwater commissioner's office in just a second. on the left you can see on the left that image, if you move your -- if you look to the left you can see the fish house. and just about -- you can see the remains of the chain coming from the fish house. now there is some argument that says that chain wasn't around in the 1620s. but we thought we'd put it in there because it's such an

historically important feature. and if you look around to your right, this is where the part of the southern pool, which is not very reputable. so on the -- just to the side of the right, this is an area that is not very reputable. to the side of the archway you can see where today the harbormaster's offices, just to the right of these steps is today's tourist office. to the right of that is a house where the pilgrims, many pilgrims, would have had the last couple of nights in new

england. these are steps and they would have originally gone to the castle. this is known as damnation alley, that single root had 10 pubs. -- route had 10 pubs and each pub was a brothel. not a very nice place. but you have sailors coming in, fishermen coming in, and if they wanted all manner of relief, that is where they would go. you see ireland house to the right. jetty houses, and behind this, the famous elizabethan house. they're called jetty houses because as they go up, each floor sticks out more than the one underneath, and is call a jetty house. if you want to see the stores,

they would've brought not just wives but also convicts here. there would have been put in stocks, some of the offenders would have been put into stocks. at the moment we have the southern harbor at low tide. so someone would have been dumped in mud as opposed to water. if you look up, you can see plymouth castle. plymouth castle may have been more in a state of ruin than we show here. where you are looking out you can see the tower in the distance, that is an outer gatehouse, and that is the only piece of the castle that exists today. you walk up a hill and you can get in and see the remains of that gatehouse. again, i am sure it would be

much busier than this. when you are walking around in real time, these guys are moving around and some are having an argument, and we can go to the part of the actual entry. into the covered walkway down to the steps themselves. again, a lot of controversy over where the real mayflower steps exist. there is talk they are still in existence underneath the ladies restroom in one pub, i am not too sure that is accurate. but we have them where they are placed in most of the maps that we have seen. at the base of the steps we have a little [indiscernible] not to similar to the one the mayflower took to cape cod, and they were able to assemble it because it was taken in the cargo bay and four pieces.

they had to assemble it and then they took it onto land in provincetown, and they took it to land on plymouth at the famed plymouth rock. and then in the virtual-reality demonstration you can see the fish house there. you can see the chain, even though it may not have been there in the 1620's it was the most important part of the fortification. so observers in plymouth castle could look down and if they thought there was a threat the chain up. and that would protect them from this french or the spanish. you are taken out in this leaky boat, and are able to look around, to see the view, the last few of plymouth that the

mayflower pilgrims would have seen. the system will not take you up onto the ship itself and we have various pilgrims and crew. the guy in front of you with a hat on, is not well, and that is bad news because they ship has not left harbor yet, so he is not going to farewell going over to the americas in the coming weeks, the coming 66 days these guys and gals were at sea. we can look back into plymouth. we left the castle in some state of ruin, that was probably the last view they would see before sailing out across plymouth sound. when you look at the map there may have been a beacon or a

windmill, we do not know and then past drake's island, into the atlantic. and on to the americas. the guy you are seeing here with the bouffant hair style is our representation of edward winslow. we decided to put one avatar representative of a known character. and winslow obviously because the present day [indiscernible]. if you have the opportunity to go forward we would be able to go into places like the captain's cabin. and christopher jones, i would like to do a virtual-reality of christopher jones and get them

to tell their stories. william brewster, bradford and get them to explain their stories. william brewster, bradford, a woman who gave birth during the transit. also john hoglund was a servant of the governor across -- on board the ship and he has amazing stories. he fell overboard during the 66 day crossing of the atlantic, but managed miraculously to grab a robe and pulled himself back on board. -- grab a rope and pulled himself back on board. if he had not done that, george w bush and george bush would never have existed because they are descendents of john howland. the relatives and descendents,

if we can make avatars tell their story, how fantastic that would be? so we are going into the stern of the ship. that structure was designed to pull in wires and rope and secure secure the ship and various pieces of cargo coming onto the ship. the main deck here is where you have the steerage office. that is called a capstan. you can see the stick on the left. that was the tiller, a very small stick that controlled the rudder, the steerage of the ship. then you have the captain's cabin, obviously the best cabin on the ship. he had his own little bed. this is where we believe that mayflower compact and which bradford had a large hand, when you see the picture they are signing the compact before they set sail to provincetown and plymouth.

this is where the compact would have been drawn up and signed. above the captain's cabin on the poop deck is another tiny office. it is a little cabin which would contain weapons, maps and one thing we hope to do in the future, while you can go downstairs, go below, it was nowhere near as spacious as this. the gap between the ceiling and floor is about five feet. you can see the capstan coming through. we need to put in what would have brought in the anchors, and many more beds, many more pieces of cargo, spinning wheels, cribs, furniture, animals. this is the area where most of the 102 passengers would have stayed, and it is tiny. it is absolutely tiny. it looks spacious here. sadly, we did not have enough

time to finish it off. but if you look at the capstan, that was something i photographed at plymouth plantation to get the accuracy from that visit. you can see, just behind the ladder. it may have been a ladder or a rope ladder, we do not know. you can see the mechanism of the tiller, coming down from the deck above. and then the complex wooden beam that goes to the stern, and then controls the rudder. again, a lot of things going on, a lot of armaments, weapons.

i cannot even get my head around what would it would have been like to have been cramped on that 466 days. rare -- for 66 days. rarely would they go on deck. it was calm and then stormy and extort nearly dangerous. -- and then extraordinarily dangerous. toward the bow there is another area you can go to. that cabin there, where most of the 30 sailors would have slept. they would have slept in the stern as well although that was reserved for officers.

and that is where most of the cooking would have been done. there is a brickwork kiln or oven there. hanging meat. again, not particularly hygienic. some of the water and beer because obviously they were taking it. bear was healthier than water because water was badly infected. that would be brought up from the cargo hold in the depths of the ship and brought into here. we have done a fraction of the things. we would love to get sponsor to do -- if you look to the top of the deck you can see what looks like a small cannon. a swivel gun. i was not aware he had these weapons until plymouth plantation. had to original weapons -- they had two original weapons in the recreations of the houses at plymouth plantation. these were filled with tiny, miniature cannonballs. they would be used to repel boar ders, if they were attacked at sea. lots of detail we can do more with in terms of making this a more educational and historical tool, and we live in hope. >> before we exit the 360, can you talk about what the crossing would have been like? you mentioned they would have been below deck most of the time. what other details, if you did game this out, would you want

to include? >> one of the original ambitions of the virtual mayflower project was to almost re-create part of the ceiling virtually. to do it hand-in-hand with navy schools in massachusetts. because it would be great if we could then use the mayflower and plymouth to show schools in the u.s. what it was like on the journey. that we could work with schools and institutions in massachusetts, so they could show us what it was like when the mayflower arrived. the crossing itself would have been horrendous. we know there was one baby born. we know one person died. we note john howden had been thrown overboard -- had gone overboard. we know one of the main beams split during one of the most

difficult storms. fortunately, they had a jackscrew and were able to put the beam back and keep it intact. if that had gone the whole ship would have been compromised. there were all kinds of events, and hardships, of being stuck in that tiny area. the seasickness would have been horrendous. the hygiene would have been horrendous. it is glamorously portrayed when you see the pilgrims kneeling and praying next to plymouth rock, but they must have been so glad to get off that ship. really, they must have been glad. >> re-creating historic ships. how did you get started in that? >> the first project, six years ago, was undertaken, again, as a labor of love, for the shipwreck museum in hastings, on the south coast of england.

we put together a project to build 3-d version. the fact that we were able to fly a drone and see the ship from the air, on its final resting place. when you fly the drone you can see the 3d ship down to the mast, and you can map that onto the ship itself, a world first. as a result we were invited to a lot of maritime conferences and meetings including the may lower 400 trail towns across england -- mayflower 400 trail, towns across england that were homes of the pilgrims before they made their way to london

to set up for plymouth to board the ship. we were invited to consider whether we could do something similar for the mayflower, with the 400 anniversary close on the horizon. >> look like? >> they were quite basic. this is the great thing about virtual reality, there are a lot of really good assets you can buy or download free of charge online. we were able to find two basic models, one of the mayflower and one of the ship that accompanied the mayflower, the speedwell. that was left in plymouth because she was leeching like a sieve. we were able to put these two shifts into virtual reality scenes using the same harbor model we used before. then we could put that into the virtual reality headset and allow members of the public and schoolchildren, and people involved in the trails town committee to experience what might be like, if we were given free reign and take in the project to its ultimate conclusion. >> were you given free rein? >> we were given everything, we got zero funding for this project. all the early presentations and

demonstrations came to nothing. the money had been spent extensively elsewhere. but being english born and bred and living in a town with a guy called edward winslow, one of the key pilgrims who sailed on the mayflower, it became a labor of love. we are going to do this, somehow. sure enough, we were able to do it. so we had free reign. we were not at anyone's beck and call. we managed to deliberate by the september 16 this year, on time to take part in the commemorations. >> what was your research like? >> very tricky, very difficult. there are so few documents you can turn to. there are maps of the area we were focusing on, the southern area, the harbor, that really was the beginning of some of the tower and ultimately plymouth city. but the maps were not specific to 1620. they were either in the 16th century, the century before, or

the century after. it was not clear what buildings had fallen into ruin, what level the street was. so it was a long series of many research studies. -- mini research studies. consulting with historical experts. aamartin reed, one of our team, provided information that was valuable. unlike other products, -- unlike other historic projects, we did not experience trouble, but these heritage projects rely on a certain amount of interpretation. and when you only have scant resources to go by, that yes, you're never going to get it one had a percent hundred

percent right and there will always be controversy and criticism, but we did the best we could with the resources we had. >> plymouth, massachusetts? >> well, after we decided we were going to do the mayflower project, it seems sensible to me to try to find as much information as we could not just about the original mayflower, but the mayflower ii. it was built in the village around the corner from plymouth, england, in 1957, and given to the united states as a gift. it was sailed across the atlantic in 1957, to commemorate the landing of the pilgrims. the mayflower ii has recently come out of the mastic seaport on the eastern coast, after a major -- the domestic seaport on the eastern coast after a major multimillion dollar retrofit. i was able to go over to boston and massachusetts, and traveled to plymouth.

i got a fantastic reception from the crew of mayflower ii. and the guys and gals who run plymouth plantation. and without that visit we would not be able to put together the detail that we have. so i spent time on the mayflower ii with a series of 360-degree panoramic cameras, trying to get as much information about the decks as i could. we had one camera in the crows nest to get a nice view of the ship from above. i was taken to plymouth

plantation, where they have a fantastic wardrobe. the assets and antiquities they have at this place, as well as plans relating to the original mayflower ii build and design. i came back with more photographs than you can imagine. and we have been using all of these photographs. they even gave us access to a fabulous laser scan, of the entire ship, that was taken when she was in the seaport. to be able to resolve the detail of the timbers and rigging, -- without the kind and generous donations of knowledge and images from plymouth plantation, we would a lot of problems. >> -- virtual world? >> we were able to take photos of actors and actresses on board performing duties of the crew. or the behaviors of the pilgrims. we could take those and use them to take our virtual humans, our avatars, and put them in

relatively accurate dress and clothing, and get them doing things on board the ship or working around the harbor, that was one thing we could do. we would directly map from photographs of the people in plymouth, massachusetts, onto virtual humans. we were able to take pictures of the wooden beams. we can use the pictures to map onto our 3d models to make them look more realistic. we could use the 3d information. we have ways we can convert different forms of 3d information, for exam of the laser scan. we would convert that into 3d and put in more detail. every piece of information gets used, nothing is wasted. >> -- for the town? project as well. >> the town and area of southern claw in plymouth, that was very difficult. we used a combination of resources. obviously the maps gave us some

degree of confidence in the potential layout of that part of town in the 1620's. the buildings were predominantly medieval. that is fortunate, because there are some very good asset sites online, where you can buy medieval buildings. there are fairly basic. so we could use the 3d structure and take some photographs of older buildings and some that exist. the type of buildings that exist in southern harbor or southern claw today, and match those images, the brickwork, the blocks, and give them some degree of authenticity. but again, a lot of interpretation, at a lot of advice from historians, to make sure we do not go over the top, was something that looked completely out of place were out of time. >> 1620? >> it was smelly.

it was dirty. it was suffering from cholera. some of the water taken on board from plymouth onto the mayflower was probably cholera-infected. there is a story that they may have gone to a fishing town in cornwall before they sailed across the atlantic. the controversy, was plymouth the final departing point? some great rivalry in the part of the world. it was unsavory. a lot of ellie's taking waste away from the links -- a lot of goalies-take-gui--a lot of gullies taking waste away. it would've been smelly and dirty. steam coming off the water. in general, not very nice. and a lot of trade. trade in fish, it was a huge

fishing port. and wine, wool, coal was being delivered into plymouth from parts of england. treasure, from galleons that were attacked, and boarded with their treasures taken. quite a hustling, bustling little town. but dirty and filthy nonetheless. >> the pilgrims? >> no. it would not have been familiar to the pilgrims. there were pilgrims from plymouth that joined the mayflower. but most of the pilgrims came from lincolnshire, and the north and east of plymouth, where the puritans, for saints, as they were called.

of the102 passengers, 50% were pilgrims, and the other 50% were called strangers. so they were not particularly strong in terms of their rejection of james the first church of england. so the puritans came from places where they illegally set up a church of worship, before they went to holland. there were people from hollen who would've come over and joined the ship, possibly at southhampton, possibly in london. plymouth would have been their final calling port. many stayed in buildings like ireland house, the accommodation, they were making arrangements for what to do with passengers aboard the speedwell. who were obviously not going to travel on the speedwell and some of them went back home, some went to holland, and some

got on the crowded mayflower. it would have been an unfamiliar and alien place from those people who came from a [indiscernible] background. >> how long did they set sail? >> many years, many years. they had tried to escape england and james first once before but were captured and brought before the came and were chastised. then they managed to get away to lyden a few years and after that were people like william brewster, and william bradford, and other guys, who were very passionate. there were very staunch practitioners of the puritan faith. so they were allowed back into england, by james the first, who then gave them his blessing, to get them out of the country. he said they could go to the new world. they could go to the americas.

providing i think he said, that they treated themselves respectably. they were in and out of england and then down to the ships. fortunately, not being chased or executed, by the king, but gently encouraged to go somewhere else. thank you so much. >> thank you jen.

>> i am richard pickering, deputy executive director of plymouth and texan museums, and we are at state peer in plymouth, massachusetts.