the c-span radio app. "washington journal" continues. host: and we are back, turning our attention to the border surge and migrants in central america, joining us for that conversation is cynthia arnson,

she's the latin american program director at the wilson center. cynthia arnson, i want to begin with the vice president, kamala harris who has been tasked by the president to address this issue of migrants coming from central america. and here's what she had to say when she met thursday with a foundation leaders about the migrant search from the northern triangle and her approach to it. >> the question has to be, why do people leave home? and often, it is the place people leave home when they don't want to either because they are fleeing some harm or because they are unable to satisfy their basic needs in the needs of taking care of their family because the resources and re-opportunities are not there so they have to go elsewhere. so i look at it in terms of that and what is going on and then if you look at the acute issues, that are particularly affecting their triangle, and we are looking at the extensive storm damage because of a certain climate, we're looking

at drought in an area and a region where agriculture is one of the most traditionally important basis for their economy. we're looking at what's happening in terms of food scarcity as a result of that. and in fact, incredible of food insecurity, which we used to call hunger, now it's food insecurity. and we are looking at their, for a number of issues that also relate to poverty, extreme poverty and also there is violence obviously coming out of those regions. when you look at the real root causes, we're also looking at the issue of corruption. again, we're looking at the kind of resiliency and then the concern that a lack of economic opportunity. so, how i see it is that for us to be effective in that region, among the work that we can do together, we have to give people a sense of hope. a sense of hope that help is on

the way. >> cynthia arnson what, did you hear there from the vice president? >> well i heard a lot of really good information about the root causes of migration from central america. i think she quite likely put her finger on the devastating hurricanes that hit central america in rapid succession within the period of about two weeks in november of last year. hurricanes iea and aida, which according to the world food programme destroyed the homes and a livelihoods of about 7.8 million people in honduras and guatemala. she also referenced food insecurity, which we know from the world food programme and from the inter american governmental bank has gotten much worse over the last ten years. it's been the worst drought in about 40 years in central america, particularly in the northern triangle where people

are migrating from. so, you know, the stresses on peoples livelihoods, the number of people who are still engaged in agriculture who can no longer make hay living because of extreme weather cycles, i think is a really important driver and it's one that we have been focused on all that much. traditionally, we've talked about poverty and violence and corruption as root causes or us push factors and now i think the climate issue has really come up front and center and i think that it's an extremely important factor, as something that needs to be really front and center in policy response. cynthia arnson when you look at the three countries we're talking about, how did they differ and which country is worse off? where do we see the most migrants coming from? >> the most migrants and now seem to be coming from honduras,

again, a country that was battered by these hurricanes, that is one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere, that has had extreme levels of corruption, the president who came into office after a heavily disputed election in 2017 is an unindicted coconspirator in the trial of his brother who was recently convicted for narco trafficking. and, you know, the possibilities ofmjdgpíñu reallyn question. and it is interesting that just yesterday, the vice president announced slightly over $300 million in aid to the northern triangle, focused exactly on immediate impact relief for

people who have been affected, so food aid and emergency housing and these kinds of things that will be provided by a range of entities in the u.s. government, u.s. agency in the u.s. government, u.s. agency from international development also the state department, the department of defense and the department of agriculture that will be helping provide food assistance. so the idea is to provide putin an immediate response of help for people who is only choice really is to stay home and starve or to migrate and try to get into the united states. >> the associated press headline about the vice president yesterday, specifically in guatemala, she spoke that virtually had a discussion with that leader pledging more money and strengthening cooperation, why? what is needed in guatemala? what is the situation there? >> well, guatemala also was

heavily affected by the hurricanes, it's a country that has been deeply impacted by corruption, by an effort to remove the un commission against impunity, we've seen just in the last two weeks or so that one of the magistrates of the constitutional port was prevented by congress from taking her seat. she something -- somebody who has been a strong supporter of anti-corruption investigations, been a strong supporter of involving local communities and indigenous communities, development projects and she basically has fled guatemala. so it's a country that has, you know, a great deal of its own problems in governance but it also shares in long border with honduras and guatemala is a transit country, it's never only a source country of migrants, particularly from the highlands where poverty is a

significant driver of migration, but it also has this border with honduras. and i think that there have been discussions with the government of mexico and the government of guatemala to beef up enforcement along the border to prevent migrants from coming to the u.s. southern border. so mexico, for example, has put another 10,000 troops on its southern border with guatemala and guatemala, in turn, has reinforced militarily the long border that it has with honduras. and i think the sense is to relieve the pressure on the u.s. southern border, relieve what has become a bit of a political crisis a for the biden administration and then simultaneously begin these high impact programs to address the root causes but also deal, not only with immediate relief but

also start to address some of these longer term drivers, such as corruption, lack of opportunity and violence. >> what is the situation like in el salvador? >> well, el salvador had recently been unless of a source of migration. it's a government with which the biden administration has had a great deal of friction, -- has very high levels of popularity and in the recent congressional elections that were held in february has increased the support that he has from his party and his party coalition. but he's a leader that has really run russia over a lot of democratic norms. a year ago, bringing the armed forces into the congress when legislators were refusing to

approve his security budget. he has defied rulings of the supreme court and had a very heavy hand in enforcing covid lockdowns, arresting people, throwing them into jail for violating the lockdowns. so there is a sense that he is governing as an authoritarian. el salvador, traditionally, has been one of the closest u.s. allies in central america, it's had a compact through the millennial challenge corporation, was one of the three countries actually, singled out during the obama administration foreign mcc compact. but i think there's a great deal, and i think you commit in this sort of-for-tat refusal -- he came unannounced to washington, did not get a meeting at the white house in february, there was concern that he was using this to gain political advantage in advance

of the congressional elections and similarly, when records are nikkhah the state department envoy for the northern triangle visited el salvador and other countries recently, he was refused a meeting with president bukele. so i think there is a great deal of cooperation at the working level and the foreign ministry. with other ministries of the government, but with the president there seems to still be a great deal of friction. el salvador's a country that continues to have high levels of violence. there continues to be a lack of opportunity. again, we have to be careful to gauge the levels of violence only by homicide statistics, and they have gone down. they've gone down in a number of countries in the northern tribal -- excuse me, but there are other

crimes that really affect the daily lives of people in profound ways. such as extortion that gains continued to exert a practice that is very difficult for poor people. shop owners, people in central markets who are forced to pay extortion or threatened that their children will be harmed and their daughters will be raped. another issue i think throughout the northern triangle is infanticide. -- femicide. the killing of women. some of the highest rates in the world. gender based violence is extremely high. it needs to be part of the set of issues that are addressed. the biden administration looks to reduce or help resolve some of the root causes of

migration. >> how many years have you've been studying central america and these countries? >> a very long time. it's embarrassing to admit. i'd say the better part of four decades. starting with the wars in central america in the 19 eighties. what's really interesting is central america was one of the most important national security issues during the cold war in the 19 eighties. after those wars were settled and the cold war was over, the united states and other international communities really kind of backed away. that's a lot of -- when these issues of governance and are standing up, police forces, pushing for reforms, tax reforms, pushing for more inclusive societies. that's a time when these

pressures could have had a lot more impact, and yet we were really absent. you know, during the clinton administration in the 90s there was renewed attention because of the devastation of hurricane mitch. if you look at a country like honduras, you could see how the phenomenon of gang violence, the movement of people from rural to urban areas, as a result of hurricane mitch. there was an attempt to deal then. we kind of did not pay much attention for a number of years until the first crisis of unaccompanied minors during the obama administration in 2014. that is, i think, probably the time when the united states, other than the cold war period paid the most -- the greatest amount of

attention devoted. the greatest amount of resources. yet a lot of those efforts were dialed back, if not canceled during the trump years. so we are once again with a migration surge and a sense that what is wrong in central america needs to be addressed or we will never really going to produce these tremendous migration pressures that have dogged -- you know, administrations for many years. it's not just a biden administration, as they say. >> here is your opportunity to balance your comments, your perspectives and questions. cynthia arnson who has looking -- then looking at central america's for centuries -- decades. text us with your comments and questions at 2:02, seven for

eight, eight zero zero three. you just need to put your first name, city and state. tina is up first in huntington, pennsylvania. a republican. go ahead, tina. >> good morning and thank you for taking my call. i come from miami in the eighties, i watched that search. my question and concerns we continue to throw money at these countries, referring it to the country itself and now we have mrs. harris saying we will give you more. we are giving it to the individuals that are crossing illegally, which is going to deplete our welfare charity systems for americans. why don't we just acquire them as territories, go into negotiations. that would be cheaper on the taxpayer? that is my concern. >> all right, tina. understood. >> tina, thanks for that question. in reality, if you look at foreign assistance as an overall percentage of the u.s.

budget its infinitesimal. i wish i had a figure to pull out in my head, but i don't have it in front of me. it's a tiny fraction of what the u.s. government spends on domestic and social welfare and social programs. i don't think it's really viable anywhere -- anymore. there were times back in the early 20th century when the united states did send the marines and occupy countries, nicaragua, the dominican republic over and over again. that did not solve the issue either. i think that there is really no way for the united states to go in and take over these countries. not without some kind of proactive military conflict, which i don't think any of us wants. but i think you raise an important point, which is that you cannot give money to people who are corrupt, and i would

agree with you 100% on that. i think the biden administration is actuallyc%p;zñ focusing on that issue and making the theme of governance, good governance and anti-corruption a central component of the current approach. and it says that we are not going to give you money that is just going to be stolen. we are going to insist on transparency and accountability. the other part of this is that the money is not just going to go to governments. the idea is to be able to strengthen the organizations in civil society that are pushing for accountability. that are pushing for transparency. international relief organizations and domestic relief organizations that are in a much better position to use u.s. funding in a transparent and effective way. i don't think it is the case

that the corruption is being ignored. on the contrary, i think it is front and center in the u.s. approach right now. but thank you for sharing those concerns. >> there is a tweet from jen. are we pushing guatemala and mexico to a border war? >> no, i don't think it is coming to that. a border war suggests that there are armed people on both sides. i think it is really an attempt to improve border security. in the region, not just our the border along the southern part of the united states. those security measures want our important and an essential aspect of sovereignty, the ability to control ones territory. i think that goes back to the very beginnings of the formation of the nation state and definition of what was a

nation state coming out of europe in the 15th century. so it is an important aspect, but it cannot be the only aspect. you cannot just stop needy people from coming through. another point that is really important is that as the official crossing points are monitored much more effectively, it will push desperate migration, desperate migrants to illegal crossing points, and it will therefore make it much more likely that people want to migrate are going to pay one of those so called -- the human smugglers, that will be seen as the only way to get through these danger in crossing points that involve jungle territory and very hostile environments.

there does need to be an attempt to reinforce the border, but it certainly cannot be the only aspect of what we do. no, i do not see a border war as imminent. >> tony from connecticut. you are next. good morning cynthia, watching with great interest and you put in your report today and i'm trying to square it with what i see on the actual border, these poor children, i'm a christian and i see these poor children stuck in cages -- the capacities of 250 enters thousands and they're, there's children being found dead in the real -- rio grande. those coyotes are making 14 million dollars a day. i don't understand, i understand that the vice president will come down there to take care of the long term

problem, but this is a daily occurrence. we just saw pictures of children being put over the wall and dropped off and it's just heartbreaking. and not to mention, the covid. there are so many of these migrants with covid being released into our country. i don't understand why doesn't the vice president go down there, go to those cages, i mean a el-sisi went there a couple of years ago, remember that? she said oh, what is going on here? to me, the silence is deafening. >> okay, i'm going to have a cynthia response. >> sure. i focus mostly on central america, i'm not going to necessarily give you a very satisfactory answer. i agree that it is heartbreaking to see these children who are unaccompanied arriving at the border and being accepted into the united

states but in facilities that are not adequate to house them. i think that there is a very great effort now on like under the previous administration or even during the obama administration. this image of cages i think is one that we have to take with a bit of a grain of salt. there are very overcrowded shelters, there are people being held, children being held in detention facilities that are not adequate places to hold young people, but i think there is an effort to improve the conditions in which the children are being held and their needs are being addressed. i think that there is also a more of an effort by this administration to have a more humane treatment of people who arrive at the border, children are not turned away, people who are asylum seekers are not

required to remain in mexico, that's one of the first things that president biden did through executive order, which was to do away with this remain-in-mexico program which led to these ongoing border communities which are, you know, slums and have no conditions four, you know, sanitation or any kind of, you know, proper living conditions. there is an attempt to identify children who have a parent who is legally in the united states who could be reunited with a child that has migrated and i think that's another phenomenon that we need to think of when we think about root causes of migration. you know, the number of people, adults from central america who have come to the united states to work, to send back billions

of dollars in remittances to help their family survive in the northern triangle countries, but the family separation that that represents is an ongoing heartbreak for the parents, as well as for the children. so there are multiple aspects of this that need to be addressed, that need to be done effectively and, in a way that is not just an open call to people from central america, you know, come one, come all, will treat you with respect and with humanity and will let you in. i mean, that clearly cannot be the message and i certainly hope, as you do, that much more will be done to help these children coming to the united states on their own. >> and in baltimore as an independent, we'll, your turn.

>> hi, thanks for having me. i just wanted to kind of echo tony statement a bit and really emphasize that i completely disagree and i think one of the most heartless things that this administration has been doing has been signaling that we care about migrants, that we are a nation of humanity when also continuing to refer to them as hordes. when really this is entirely an american made crisis which biden, if he had the interest, at the sign of a pan solving mediately. >> i want to take that point, well, cynthia arnson, it's not true? with his band he can resolve the situation? >> i don't think that that's the case, really. i think that you have a combination of push factors that are truly unique and as i've said before, i mean, president biden is not the only one to have confronted, you know these surges, president trump lose three would be 19

when you have this perfect storm and i use that metaphor quite consciously, you know, devastating hurricanes in november of 2020 combined with covid that has devastated economies around the world, has certainly devastated the u.s. economy but in latin america and in central america, i mean latin america is statistically the region that has been the hardest hit in terms of covid deaths per capita and also in terms of the decline in gdp. and central america, as a part of latin america has done even worse. according to the un -- the central american economies have gone down and declined over 9% last year. the average for south america was, you know, a little over 7%. so you have tristan unprecedented health, economic and climate related crisis that

regardless of the administration would have produced, you know, an unprecedented push of a desperate people to come to the united states. now, we can all agree that the messaging that was done rapidly, that the united states would undo the inhumane policies of the trump administration separating children from their parents, ripping kids from the arms of their parents, hundreds of those children have not been reunited, you know, with their families. i mean, it was important to stop that policy and i think candidate biden had pledged to do so. but there were a rapid number of executive actions that did send a message, you know, perhaps to a stronger message that the united states was open for business and the biden administration moved quickly to try to counter that, that

coyote's were taking advantage and exploiting that message, spreading false rumors about, you know, how now people could migrate, making people paid thousands of dollars that they didn't have going into debt, borrowing from family members, you know, to make that dangerous journey. and you are has been a very strong effort through the media, through the media, through radio, through tv, to tell people do not come. and one of the things that was interesting about the announcement that was made yesterday by vice president harris was that not only was there going to be emergency humanitarian and food assistance but there was also going to be assistance to guatemala to set up migrant shelters, safe places for migrants to be, to receive care. now whether or not this can be done, whether it can be densely safely, whether the government

has the capacity to put these shelters in place is really, you know, an open question. i would certainly hope that international relief agencies, that religious organizations, you know, are being involved in providing these kind of safe havens for people who otherwise feel pushed to migrate. >> john, jamestown rhode island, democratic. >> yeah, hi. >> hi don, go ahead. >> okay, let me get my thoughts together really quickly here. i'm just thinking that might not somewhere either making united states in central america that they would have a central government to take care of all these little punks and stuff down there. you know, racing around, killing people. but if they did have one central government in that whole place, i don't know why it's never occurred to anyone. but go ahead, thank you.

>> well thanks for that. there have been long-standing attempts, you know, at central american integration and it's not in the interest of forming, you know, one big government but really integrating the region. it started in the sixties, a probably even before. but i'm remembering is in the 1960s with the attempted to create the central american common market which was an economic integration scheme. you see it also in the kind of free trade agreement that the united states has with central american countries and that includes the dominican republic to treat the area as a zone as opposed to individual countries. i think that just as simone, collaborator of south america from spanish colonialism back in the 19th century wanted to ignite south america certainly

as one entity and those dreams have been there for a long time and they come up against the ideas of sovereignty a individual states that were carved out of the spanish empire at the time of independence, more or less in the 18 twenties. so i don't think that one overarching government is very realistic goal at this point. there's too much nationalism, too much sense of sovereignty, national identity as small as the country's can be very very strong differences between say costa rica and guatemala and nicaragua. el salvador in terms of how people see themselves. the language, the slang and the customs. the role of indigenous

populations as an important part of the national identity as it is in guatemala. i don't think it's very realistic although those dreams of unification of an there for a long time. >> scott, myrtle beach, south carolina. democratic collar. hello, scott. >> i. i'm just curious as to why we are not holding funding for mexico or stopping these people before they get here. >> thanks for the question. there has been a lot of effort devoted to having the cooperation of the mexican government of president lopez in helping the united states deal with this crisis. there is assistance going to mexico to address the migration crisis and some of this is

reflected in increased enforcement along mexico's southern border with guatemala which is a key transit point for people coming to central america to the united states. they cross central america, they come through guatemala and come across the border in southern mexico and make it up to the united states. there has been a great deal of cooperation with the mexican government, not only in this administration than under the trump administration to try to deal with slowing or stopping the migrant flows coming to the united states. >> cynthia arnson, what are you watching for next from the biden administration? >> i guess i am watching to see what the actual focus of aid will be. their candidate biden pledged to spend four billion dollars

over a four-year period of time in addressing the root causes of migration in the northern triangle. and the amount that is being requested for this year, i think it's slightly below that. it's somewhere in the 860 million range. but to see what specific programs there are, how that money is going to be allocated, but also when congress is going to insist on. this is -- we have a system of government where the administration, the executive branch proposes -- but it's actually congress that has to review and appropriate that money. it will be really interesting over these next months between now and the end of the united states government's fiscal year, which is september 30th, to see sort of how that aid is thought of and who will be the recipients and what will be the

main focus, and how much is going to go to government and how much is going to go to independent organizations, international, civil society or domestic in central america. civil society organizations and with the real emphasis is going to be. in spending that money. i think that there is a lot in this process to watch over the next month. >> cynthia arnson, what's the difference between the northern triangle countries and the other countries like nicaragua, panama, costa rica? >> i appreciate the question and i certainly think that it is important to include those other central american countries as part of this discussion. central america is larger than the northern triangle and there are issues to be addressed in all of those countries. i would start with nicaragua,

which has an extremely repressive authoritarian government led by daniel ortega and his wife rosario maria, who is -- their elections national elections scheduled in november of this year. the nicaraguan opposition is struggling to unite. there are multiple candidates, but i think there is an awareness for a face-off with ortega. there is really no chance of defeating him. this is a government that in response to protests in april of 2018 killed, opened fire on demonstrators, killing over 300 people. he has tortured people. holds political prisoners. where people are really afraid to speak out, independent media has been muzzled. that is an extremely difficult

challenge. nicaragua is not the focus of these aid packages, because it does not really send migrants in great numbers to the united states. where it does send migrants is to costa rica. i think that costa rica is struggling to deal with the number of nicaraguan migrants that have come into their country. it is something that the united states high commissioner for refugees and others are emphasizing as a key part of the migration crisis. if you think of it holistically, not just migrants reaching the united states but migrants within the central american region. acosta rica has a longer history of democratic governance, affective institutions. its economy is also struggling. the covid 19 pandemic has not

been kind to anyone, and these are governments that have not by and large had access to vaccines. i'm glad to see that the biden administration is going to be much more proactive and providing vaccines to developing countries where you have levels of vaccination of two to five, 7% of the population. so the effect on economy is going to be much more long-standing than it is even in the united states. so we do need to think about the entire region. >> cynthia arnson, latin american program director. thank you for the conversation. >> thank you for the invitation and to the great colors for the questions. >> absolutely.

former secretary of state, madeleine albright joins diplomats and foreign policy scholars to review the situation in afghanistan. they talk about the biden administration's decision to withdraw all troops by september 11th of this year. they also explore the role of women in the country. regional security challenges and peace talks