streets of chinatown. >> tonight, however, we begin with the life and leadership of congressman john lewis. and who better to recognize as a person of faith whose leadership inspired tens of thousands to

leadership of their own? last july, at the time of congressman lewis' death, dean holler said this. every so often, god gives us extraordinary individuals who spend their lives working for justice and promoting the way of love. john lewis was just such a gift from god. he was a light in the darkness, a voice of the voiceless, and tireless champion for equality. our guests tonight knew congressman lewis personally and we are pleased that they are here to share their reflections on his life and leadership. lynda served as his chief of staff and counsel during his early years in office. she is currently the ceo of the john and lillian miles lewis foundation which works to carry

on the vision and work of congressman lewis. her public service at georgia state university college of law, the new jersey legislature, and hampton university confirmed for her that social justice and equity are the things most important to our nation and to her. mr. michael collins served as congressman lewis' chief of staff, floor assistant, and senior advisor. working with the congressman for more than two decades. he is a graduate of morehouse college with an mba from emory university and an msw from boston college. he serves on multiple boards and is currently the board chair of the john and lillian miles lewis foundation. finally, mr. john meacham is a noun historian, contributed -- can shipping editor and

prize-winning author. he is also the national cathedral's history and elect. he is the author of his truth is marching on: john lewis and the power of hope. in a few moments, we will hear a reflection from him to start our conversation this evening. through tonight's conversation and particularly the sharing of stories and experiences, we are inviting our guests to share their honesty, authenticity, and faith at a time when our country and our communities are dire need of such a gift and we are so grateful. in just a moment i will offer in , opening prayer. mr. meacham will offer a reflection on congressman lewi'' leadership. then for the bulk of our time together, the dean will host our guests in conversation. during that time, we invite those of you who are watching at home to send your questions in

via the chat on youtube or on the link that will be shared. we would love to hear your questions and i will come back at the end of the conversation to share some of them with our panel so they can answer them. for those of you who are so inclined, won't you join me in a word prayer? holy god, we are grateful for your presence among us tonight in the cathedral and in the hearts of those listening, wherever they may be. bless our speakers as they share their reflections and experiences with us. open our hearts and minds so that we made each hear something that helps us become the people you wouldn't call us to be. we thank you especially for the leadership of congressman lewis. as reverend michael curry prayed last summer, may we, like him, rise up to claim the high call of love, never to see slavery

for a just and humane world, always showing compassion, and living humbly with god until all of god's children are free. a man and i now invite mr. meacham to the second podium. >> thank you. i'm reminded of a story that ronald reagan used to tell when someone would call him when he was in hollywood and say, would you come speak at a benefit? reagan would say, i cannot sing or dance, why would you want me? they said, you can introduce someone who can. i am just here to -- has an opening act. the story begins in troy, alabama. carter's quarters, to be precise. john lewis, for him, enslavement

was not an abstraction. his great-grandfather had been born in 18 62, before the emancipation proclamation freeing the enslaved people in the seceded states of the union went into effect on the first of january, 1863. for him, america's original sin of human enslavement was as real as his great-grandfather. frank carter, who lived until the congressman was eight years old. the story truly begins with john robert lewis' first memory, which is of his mother's garden. it was the first and most iconic of the many biblical realities and landmarks that would mark the channels of john lewis' life. i asked him last spring, what

was your first memory? he paused and said, my mother's garden. there was a bucket of water by the gate and i always loved to help things grow. i always loved to help things grow. there were three tributaries that came together to form congressman lewis' life. one was the gospel of jesus christ. i never met anyone actually who was, in no way, in a way, less interested in denominational or sectarian politics or theological disputes as a believer as john lewis, but his core insight, his core vision, was in fact that what was said in the sermon on the mount, what was said in that medical commandment first found in leviticus, that we should love our neighbor as ourselves, and

then taken to a further extreme, to love our enemies, he saw that commandment as a central, controlling reality. i have never met anyone who closed the gap so precisely, so foley -- fully between the profession of faith and its practice then john robert lewis. and he walked among us, even unto last summer. i believe he was an american saint, i believe he meets all of the criteria for it, and i don't say that to make him a figure of stained glass or to put him on a pedestal far from our reach, but you put people on a pedestal properly so it is easier to see them. it is easier for them to teach. he was willing to die for his vision of the country and of the

world itself. we all know how many times he was willing to give everything for that. the 45 arrests, the innumerable hours in custody. one of the miracles -- i use that word advisedly -- is that he was arguably in more danger when we could not see him than when we could. the cameras were there on highway 70 in selma, alabama. the cameras where they are for the freedom rides, they were there for the sit ins. they were not there at parchment, they were not there in the penitentiaries and the jails where board knows what could have happened. but he always wanted to make things grow. so, as one of the early church fathers said, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. i would argue that the blood of

john lewis is the seed of our best manifestation of what america can be. so one was the faith, that was one tributary. i think another was his innate revulsion against the segregated order that he encountered in troy. the first -- the only white person he saw with any regularity growing up was the mailman. when he would go into troy, he had a revulsion against the fact that he was not fully a citizen. and it unsettled him in a profound and, ultimately, for all of us, redemptive way. the 30 tributary, i think, is the story of the country itself. he was very much engaged in what was unfolding beyond pike county. his family could not afford a

subscription to the newspaper, his grandfather got it so he would get it a day or two later. he read about the brown versus board decision of may 17, 1954, and he waited all summer for his new white friends to come and join him. he mis-underestimated, as a twist of the bush would say, the capacity of the alabama white power structure to keep that from happening. he read about the death of emmett till, they were one year apart and he knew that he could have been emmett till. he read about authoring lucy who attempted to desegregate the university of alabama in 1956 and was repelled from that. and, in i believe december of 1956, the congressman always believed it was 1955, we disagreed, he was john lewis, so believe him, but i'm going to throw this in as a biographer --

december, 19 56, 1956, martin luther king preached a sermon called the letter of pull to the christians -- letter of paul to the christians of america. martin luther king jr. never met a metaphor he did not like and it was a long homiletic metaphor about what with the apostle paul say to the christians of america. what he would say, obviously, is we were not living up to the injunction of scripture in either its letter or its spirit. john lewis heard that over the radio and martin luther king became, in that moment, a kind of father figure to him. the only time, on record, that john lewis devoted an apostle of nonviolence, which he learned in the clark memorial united methodist church in the late 1950's -- the only time he ever raised a hand back was in the albert hotel in selma, alabama

when a white supremacist, american nazi, part of the lincoln rockwell group, came after martin luther king. john lewis' reaction was to defend dr. king, but he defended him not with a fist, but with a hug. he threw his arms around the assailant to protect dr. king. so i think these three things. i think the faith itself, the innate revulsion against segregation, and this sense that he was not alone. that is how he decided that he could help make things grow. he comes to nashville, tennessee in the fall of 1957, the little rock desegregation crisis is unfolding. he wanted to come back to alabama to desegregate the largest university near him, troy state.

that is the first time he met dr. king. but his parents did not want him to do it. it is another biblical mark. jesus said, if you are going to follow me, you have to give up your family. you have to give up the ordinary conventions and customs of life, because the coming of the kingdom is of such scope and such immensity that it requires a new orientation in life. another biblical note, he was not john lewis when he was growing up. he was robert lewis or bob. when he came to nashville -- another biblical note -- he goes to a hail, he goes to a mountain -- american baptist theological seminary on the cumberland river , it is called the holy hill -- and he received a different commission.

like abraham, like elisha, like peter, he received a different name. his friends he to call him john -- his friends began to call him john. john lewis was this figure who was connected to the young boy who had learned so much in troy and who had begun, as all of us did, in a garden. he became a commissioned, ordained apostle of what lincoln called our better angels. and john lewis was a better angel. and as an angel, he wanted to help make things grow. he becomes engaged in the civil rights movement in this city. first time he came to washington was in may of 1961 when he boarded a bus for the freedom rides. he made his mark in the sit ins of nashville. he had been arrested -- he saw it as a kind of baptism by fire.

he said he never felt -- this is a new testament image -- he never felt as free as when he was jailed for the first time in nashville in 1960. his whole life was about growth and it was about reversal. it was about upending the ordinary conventions and understandings of power, politics, and dominion, and supremacy. in the service, a biblically informed, theologically driven understanding of what the declaration of independence actually meant. what about a self-evident truth actually meant. and he never flinched. and that is a remarkable thing. he had a wilderness period in the mid-1960's. he went to new york, he was

trying to get his footing, but it was fairly brief. he was brought back into the maelstrom of history after selma , both by dr. king's speech on the vietnam war and by robert kennedy's presidential campaign in 1968, when he saw the capacity of politics to help close that gap between profession and practice. he saw a way to make things grow. a word about his sainthood. he always resisted this. i have jim lawson on my side, so i'm going to take it and run. if jim lawson tells you something is ok, you are in good shape. the saintliness is not to elevate him above the realm of human experience. saints are not saviors. saints are not gods. they are god-like.

they are savior-like. they are not perfect, they're just a hell of a lot better than the rest of us. which, if you are me, is not very hard. as robert louis stevenson once said, it is the duty of the christian do not succeed but to , fail carefully. john lewis succeeded cheerfully , reversing that insight of robert louis stevenson. to tell his story, to be in conversation with john lewis, is to be in conversation with the deepest truths of the human experience as informed by our imperfect understanding of the divine. we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face, i think john lewis saw through the glass , into that glass, more clearly than anyone else i have ever known. i have been lucky in my life,

michelle called me a renowned presidential historian -- i must say, that is like being described as the best restaurant in a hospital. it is not that hard. but i have known three people really well. in public life. one was buried from this place, george herbert walker bush. the other is the incumbent president of the united states, joe biden. the other is john lewis. there are three wildly different people. a son of greenwich, world war ii hero, a man of immense privilege, george bush. a roman catholic, working-class guy from scranton and claymont, joe biden. and the great-grandson of an enslaved person who challenged a nation's conscience and pushed us towards a more perfect union through the power of love, not hate, hope, not fear, creativity

and creation and growth, not destruction. but they have one thing in common, and that was a remarkable capacity for empathy. they saw the world and see the world through other people's eyes, which i would argue is fundamentally biblical. to love your neighbor as yourself is really hard. i am not all that interested in loving my neighbor as myself. i like my neighbor, that is fine. i certainly don't want to love my enemy. they are my enemy, that is the point. but to witness the life of john robert lewis is that what i just said is wrong. and he embodied, manifested, and taught us that to meet hate with love and darkness with light is

not just ideal, but possible. and in that way, we can all help make things grow. thank you. >> you got to bring that with you, john. >> i think you've heard from me plenty. >> thank you, that was wonderful. i love how you kept coming back to making things grow. it is so true. linda and michael, thank you for being with this tonight. we are honored to have all three of you here. especially with all the work you have done on john lewis and all of the history you two have with him to be able to have this conversation is very special. i do want to put a seamless plug in. if you have not read john's book on john lewis, you should. i will honestly say it is one of the best books i have read in

the past year and has been very deeply meaningful to me during this pandemic as i think about all of the things that i'm not doing in my cozy, comfortable home and reading about all of the things that john lewis did with his life, which was so amazing. canon elected historian? >> it is a sign of the end of christendom, yes. >> you don't get to hear that title very often, do you? john has been kind enough to agree to serve as the first canon historian of washington national cathedral and until he is seated officially, he is canon -- is canon elect. it is nice for us to be in the building, although there is an amazing echo in here.

but we look forward to a time when all of us can be back together in this space for wonderful occasions like this and for celebrating services and seating john beauchamp as canon historical elect. let me start with the two of you all. each of you, tell us about when you were with john, doig years, because i want to make sure that people understand that, your years with him, during what parts of his life, and then -- i would love to have all three of you say a little bit about a couple of the things that you learned from him that were both important to you. i know you both have interesting stories about how you met him, or the first times you met him. that would be great to share as well. >> i met john lewis when i was -- i thought i was 14, it may have been 12 -- at a small

presbyterian church here in washington where the minister was the president of the washington, d.c. chapter of the southern christian leadership conference. i had an occasion to meet martin luther king. my memory is not as good as it used to be. james farmer, carmichael, and then john lewis. i met him the next time when i was in atlanta maybe 15 years later. i first met his life lillian, we became friends. she pulled me into john's campaign for city council and i worked on that campaign. we hosted a couple of coffees back and i don't know what the year was. i followed his career as i did previously when he was on the council because he was interested in things that were important to me. neighborhood preservation and ethics, those were his hallmarks on the council.

when he decided to run for congress, i wanted to be there with him than. -- with him then. that was an interesting story because event against his old friend. at the time, the talk was that all of the buppies in town were behind jillian. buppies are the black, urban, young professionals or something like that. my husband and i raised a fundraiser, we had 100 people who you would call buppies in our home to show support for john lewis. then my husband took a position in washington and i called the congressman and said, i am moving to washington, i want to come help you change the world. he said, let's talk about it. he offered me a job as administered of assistant and i said, that is fine, i will do that. you know, with my two large degrees, i'm happy to be administrator of assistant if i can help you change the world.

i did not know -- i know this is hard to believe -- until i showed up for work a couple weeks later that the administrative assistant was the chief of staff. that's how i began my work career with the congressman. >> lynda had a big part in me joining the congressman's staff. before that, i had an opportunity to meet congressman as a freshman in college. they had several speakers at orientation and congressman lewis revealed himself and all his experience and knowledge and extended an invitation for us to keep in touch with him and always wanted to be available. so i did not take that opportunity until my senior year at morehouse when i was about ready to graduate and had an opportunity to ask the

congressman for a letter of recommendation, which he gave me, and a pen for graduation and sent me off to boston. i end up returning home to boston, where i taught in a directed youth programs for the city of boston. wrote to him five years later, senator kennedy was hosting a book signing for congressman lewis at the harvard club and i heard about it and shared with all my colleagues, i know john lewis, i know congas and lewis. they are like, really? i said, i met him when i was in college. wow, what is he like? i had not spoken to the congressman in five years, but i was going to make sure that everybody knew i had a connection with the congressman. i had an opportunity to get invited to the luncheon in stood in the back of the room because i was going to wait for my opportunity to reintroduce myself to the congressman. the doors of the room opened and the congressman saw me in the corner of the room and bolted

directly over to me and said where have you been? , i said, you remember me? he said, how could i forget you? i was relieved. my friends and everyone could then cheer me on with me. that was the beginning and the reconnection i had with the congressman. lynda came in when she was a conduit -- i was able to join the congressman's staff at that moment, that here i was finishing up at boston college. >> what year would that have been? >> that was in 1998. >> i'm going to jump into the big stuff. say a little bit about things that were important that you learn from john lewis. your time with them, you must have things that are jon: he was, i think, the

central figure on a -- in 20th and 21st century american life you closed the gap between profession and practice of faith in the public square, not in a sectarian way. he had no interest in denominational's. but, the bible said, love your neighbor. jim lawson had shown him how to be nonviolent in the most violent of situations. john lewis fought as a young man, as a very young man. he is born in 1940. so, he is 25 when he is on the bridge.

that is the capstone of that time in his life of many chapters. he went to jail for conscientious objection during the korean war. he goes to india. he was too late to meet gandhi but he met a lot of gandhi's lieutenants and absorbed the tax excess of that movement and comes back and runs into king at oberlin. they were both visiting. king realizes the experience that dr. lawson has an says you are the kind of person we need in the south. lawson said ok and comes to

nashville. he teaches diane nash and bernard lafayette and john lewis. he becomes the architect of the struggle against white supremacist state sanctioned violence. randy: he wrote the guiding principles for sncc, didn't he? jon: it was where a coat -- where a coat and tie, say yes sir and yes ma'am, put the onus on the oppressor and illustrate with raw physical courage that there was a right and wrong. and the system and the laws were on the wrong side. so, what i learned from him, what is in no way novel, is that in that pulpit, on march 31st

1968 martin luther king quoted theodore parker saying the ark of history bends towards -- the arc of a moral universe bends towards justice. john lewis taught me that the arc of a moral universe does not bend unless there are people insisting that it does. that is american democracy. randy: thank you. i would say that living --. michael: we show up every day with him. for me, i have always thought about looking at the congressmen and seeing all of those things that were just so true to him and his beliefs. his fate -- fate --faith.

his work in congress and the civil rights movement was an extension of his face and he lived that everyday. -- an extension of its faith and he lived that everyday. the respect he gave to everything will person -- every single person, whether a police officer, or teller, or a lady in the elevator. he lived his life every day with principal. as a young staffer, as a staffer, you are focused on the task at hand, getting the congressmen to where he needs to go in making sure he is on time and meeting those needs and requirements. none of that was in the congressmen's head. he focused on individuals, people.

the people he came in contact with walking those halls. the everyday people that walked the halls in congress, the street, the airport. those were the lessons. i spent 21 years working with them. and every day was a lesson. he woke up every day as if it was a brand-new day with a new meaning and took nothing for granted. that was a lesson. you understood it in a different context, but we lived it out every day. randy: i'm sure you have thousands of these stories. --jon: i was walking through an airport with him and a woman walked up and said, oh my god i am going to faint. he said please don't faint, i am not a doctor there. he was funny too. [laughter] michelle: i read your book over

the weekend and was reminded that john was, until his last days, the same person he was as a boy in troy. reading the epilogue, i was reminded that you have core values, or you should, and you should always always have those top of mind. they should guide your steps. i think that is what john lewis did. he had core, simple, or, he would have said, plane, values. he stuck with them. peace was important. nonviolence was important. love was important. knowledge was important. being creative, being thoughtful. those things were just too he was from the very beginning. to the end. i met him at my small presbyterian church year. we had a very small congregation

at of all -- at a very small church in a very small fellowship hall. i can remember john and others spending time with young people in that fellowship hall drinking lemonade because he thought it was important to inspire and engage with young people. as you know, that is something that was important to him until the very variant. -- until the very very in -- and --end. he had an important message for those who would follow in his footsteps. and for others. randy: our focus for this spring is servant leadership. as we move in to this new administration we have been through so many difficult days of leadership in our country. we thought it was an important time to lift up a different kind

of leadership. kind of leadership that comes out of the life of jesus. the servant leader is the leader who is first and foremost not interested in the trappings of power, but serving the people for whom they are supposed to lead. i cannot think of a better example of that in his life than john lewis. i am curious to ask you all if you have an insight. as i was reading john's book, and as i have known about john lewis's life, to be so young, barely 25, wherein -- when he is on the edmund pettus bridge or even younger when he is doing set in's and freedom rides, all of the arrests, the beatings, this hitting -- the spitting, the stances he took, the courage he showed over and over again out of that love and sense of we are going to love our way through this.

then, i guess i am moving quickly, but then to see martin luther king killed. and then to see robert kennedy killed. did he ever get jaded? did you ever see him jaded? did you ever see him lose -- it is one thing you and you -- when you are that young to hold onto those ideals, but the fact that he didn't through -- she did it through 45 -- that he did it through 40 five years -- 45 arrests is amazing. did he ever appear jaded? michael: not at all. he was the most optimistic person i ever met. he was not jaded. he got up and forged ahead. he talked about losing dr. king and robert kennedy. he just recommitted himself to doing their work and the other

work that was important to him. it was a. very sad and dark time for him, but he kept forging ahead and lived out his life making sure that he touched people and changed the things he could. but no, he never was jaded and never felt like there was something that would keep him back. he inspired his colleagues everyday in congress. they looked to him. so, he felt positive and confident in that leadership. michelle: he would always be positive. he wanted us to always be positive. always be optimistic. always be hopeful. stay focused. pace yourself. it will happen. slow down, linda. we will get there. jon: the one wilderness. was in the late 60's, the new york phase. but that was remarkably brief --

the one wilderness period was in the late 60's, the new york phase, but that was remarkably brief, 40 days. i was struck by something michael and linda said about the trappings of power. the first time i met him was on election night in a georgia senate runoff in 1992. one of the key things about an election night is a measure of power is not being seen. you are really just eating cheese cubes in a different room. but you want to be seen as though you are an ancient priest commuting -- communing with the precincts. i walked into the hotel bar room and he and lillian were just standing there talking. it was the most absolutely unassuming, absolutely authentic, i know way -- in no

way showy authenticity. but i think that is part of the sainthood argument. in the face of reaction, of ongoing, unfolding, unto this our attacks on the work that he almost gave his life for and his friends did give their lives for , what are we debating right now? voting rights. what is happening in atlanta right now? voting rights. yet, as an observer from afar, one of the things that was so amazing was that he was truly, as st. paul said, patient in tribulation. linda said that the core values were simple. that is true. but my god, they are so hard to

hold onto. i am terrible at it. [laughter] it is incredible that he didn't hold on -- that he did hold on and never lost it. randy: did you see examples of grace that may have unfolded years later. you hear stories of policemen who beat him or folks who attacked him, did you see a grace come out of that? did you ever witnessed times when someone would come up to him and apologized years later? i would hope that there would be some grace and healing or some experiences there of redemption. did you witness any of that? michael: definitely. he believed in redemption. ella -- l1 -- l1 wilson -- elwin

wilson comes to mind. after the election of president obama, he was witnessing all that was taking place and told his son, confessed to his son, what he had been participating in back in those days of rock hill. he confessed he was one of the ones who beat the congressman. his son took the story to the local news station. the local news station made contact with our office and asked if the congressman would want to meet with him. of course, knowing the congressman, he of course wanted to meet with him. so, they came early one morning. his son and mr. wilson. and this is all recorded on the news. and they met together and mr. wilson asked the congressman for his forgiveness. the congressman, without hesitation, that i forgive you -- said i forgive you.

they embraced for a long time. that was true. the congressman believed and felt in his heart that forgiveness. he held nothing toward him. that was the beginning of their relationship. they spent several times together after that just talking about that story. jon: to be clear. this was a klansman who had beaten him in 1961. randy: was this in the bus station? jon: yeah. randy: that must've been a powerful moment to witness. michael. it was. -- michael: it was. randy: tell us more about what he was like to work for. i imagine it was not easy to get him on a schedule if he was always stopping and chatting. michael: linda had the early

time to do this. i had to follow behind her. [laughter] michelle: -- linda: he had his own schedule. the biggest thing that would give him away where young people. after john passed last year, i got a call from a young man who called to say he had been an intern when i was there and what a difference in had made in his life -- it had made in his life to spend time with the congressman. that was important to him. he was very generous with time. it was the most and precious -- it's the most precious thing we have on earth, time, and he would give it away. he got where he needed ago -- to go when he needed to be there, so that was ok.

michael: john talks about the congressman being a saint. he never brought it up unless one day he was in a car and he would say "remember, i am a saint." [laughter] there were those few moments. jon: years ago, maybe the late 90's or early 2000's, late saturday afternoon, one of the ways we got to know each other was he was very generous about doing all beds. i was in journalism then -- he was very generous about doing op-ed's. i was in journalism them. are called atlanta and misses lewis answered. i said, is the congressman around? she said honey, he is at a black church banquet, he will not be back until wednesday. [laughter] michael and linda were both

incredibly adept at this. he never said no. if there were an invitation, if there was something to do, he was there to tell that story. one of the things that a liturgical mind would appreciate is, when you think about the annual pilgrimages to selma and buncombe are he and birmingham that he took -- and montgomery and birmingham. most of the time when you are engaged in commemoration, you are also engaged in self-aggrandizement just by the nature of it. and yet, he could take you to the place where he and hosea williams made the voting rights act happen, where the teargas was, the concussion was

inflicted. and you would not think, in any way, that it was not the most natural thing in the world that you were there was john lewis. it was this remarkable capacity that i have never figured out to tell a story in which he was a central character without self reference. it was magical and mysterious. but when you were standing there with him, it was not about him. you were just thrilled you are there with this person who had done this. the other thing i think we should mention, because it is a whole different two generations, are the graphic novels. the graphic novels about march -- the march. i know my children first encountered the movement through that. he had had a comic book about a

bus boycott. randy: those were amazingly successful, weren't they? when i first heard about those, i could not imagine that they would be. but they were. he was right about that. they were very successful. we worried that the stories get lost and do not get told. it is so important that they continue to get told. so, we were talking about edmund pettus bridge. what did john think about the protests this plaster -- past summer? the black lives matter protests? all of those folks out in the street. it is the first time in many a decade we have seen this sort of reaction and racism raising its head and making clear it is still a serious issue in this country and so many thousands of people stepping out about it. what did he think of these most

recent movements? michael: this is a difficult time. the congressman had been diagnosed in december. he was going through treatment in january. john, to his credit, was really able to have the opportunity to get the congressman to talk with jon through some of that time. the congressman, as you know, was not able to come out and talk in ways that he normally would be able to. we normally hear him. he would be on the floor. or he would be writing and you would see it in print. everything was internal for him. so, it was very frustrating. he just did not have the opportunity to be vocal but you could see it. he did not turn the tv off. msnbc.

it was very personal. he could not express himself like he wanted to. i had an opportunity to, he wanted to go home to atlanta to visit his son. i drove into atlanta. -- i drove him to atlanta right after the killing. he was very sad. i walked in the room and he was crying. i said to him, what is the matter? of course, everything on george floyd was reeling. he said this is just so sad. i said, i know, congressman. we made a lists of all the requests for him to speak. there were over 100. he just shook his head and said, i can't. it was very internal for him. he was in his own demise and thinking about how he did not

want to go public. he did not want to be seen. it was very difficult for them. you can imagine how difficult that was knowing who he is. he did have an opportunity to go on camera for a couple of interviews. but, the one that i want to make reference to -- that linda made reference to, which we did not know at the time would be his last public appearance, was he had an opportunity to see the unveiling of the black lives matter plaza. randy: it is such a powerful photograph of him standing there. michael: in the midst of his illness. this was a month before he passed. he said, i want to go see it. and i said, we will go see it. not thinking that i really would take him. maybe drive-by on the way to treatment. then i thought, this really means something to him. this is the opportunity for him

to really feel the connection to everything going on and identifying with all of these young people because, as linda indicated, this was his life. young people are the future. he always believed in young people who took the time -- he took the time to sit and meet with them. the diversity and the commitment and watching them. he did not turn off the tv. he would lay there and watch it. he watched the footage over and over again and said, i want to go to the black lives matter plaza. we were able to arrange for him to go early on a sunday morning. that was the moment he reconnected with the movement. he cannot be out there with them, but being on the street there was a symbol or of unification for what they were doing, what they had done, and their future. he connected with it.

linda: one of the things i always thought was interesting, and i remember the congressman saying this, you use your body to make the statement if you need to. he did that in many of the ways you recounted in your book. but that was another such occasion. he did not say anything at black lives matter plaza. he said there -- stood there. what a powerful message to the folks there and those who could not be there. it was like a bridge between the activists of his generation and the activists of the next generation. that symbolism of a bridge is so powerful. he used it in so many ways. that was an occasion where i called michael and said "michael , where are you taking -- why are you taking john down there?

you know he can't do that." michael said, linda, you know i cannot stop him. he made so many creative and smart decisions about how best to move the movement. that was one such occasions. randy: you are right. it was incarnational. it was about him physically being in that space. when he is looking so frail and yet -- with his mask and yet standing in the middle of the plaza, it is very powerful. we have questions from people watching. we will take some of those. before that, tell us a little about what the foundation is up to you. linda: michael and i are working hard to build the foundation. i am really excited. today was a very exciting day.

i feel very positive about where we are headed. i think john left us a blueprint. our job is to keep doing what he would have us do, telling the stories, teaching, providing support, being inspired, just as he was, by jim lawson and martin luther king, and then to inspire others, which is what he has always done, particularly vis-a-vis young people. we are a new organization. we are developing much faster than i would've expected. i am terribly excited. i know john is very proud of the work we are doing, michael. michael: i agree. randy: will the pilgrimages continue? michael: i am sure they will. randy: i will invite michelle to

come back up. she and margaret have been keeping an eye on the folks on the internet writing in. we will see if we can take some of those questions. michelle: i can also let you all know that there are more than 500 people who are watching on youtube. so, we are so grateful that you get to share all of this with so many folks all over the country. maryland, alabama, 1070 -- tennessee, a couple of folks from vermont. people are all over. linda, one of the questions to you is if you would be willing to share some stories of his time at martha's vineyard. you've all spent some time up there. linda: he has visited several

times. most recently he was there for an event with ct bevin -- ct billion -- ct bivian, who passed on the very same day john did. i was on the phone with his daughter, and she was saying, linda, i do not think we will make it through the weekend. then i got a call from michael. they together talked about their experiences in the movement. we had an overflow crowd, as we have on other occasions. i promoted his book "walking with the wind." we did a couple summer events there in 1998 and 1990. that is where i met michael. michelle: tell us that story. the two of you met at one of those events?

michael: yes. linda: he got books out of my car for me. they were too heavy. michael: linda said, your assignment is to drive the congressman back from boston to catch his flight from martha's vineyard. in order to you have to do -- get here and do a few things while you are here. so, that is what i did. that was the book signing. it was the 35th anniversary of the march on washington. president clinton, charles ogletree, anita hill, martin luther king junior the third, were paying tribute to the congressman. that is when president clinton came and read from his book at the church. my assignment was to turn the

pages as the books got signed. it was an incredible honor. i enjoyed it. linda: he's exaggerating. michael: no. linda: michael was extremely helpful. that event is when president clinton acknowledged, did his vehicle but -- did his mea culpa around monica lewinsky. >> was it that event? michael: it was his first public appearance after the monica lewinsky scandal. he called congressman lewis and told him that he did not think he would be able to make it. the congressman said, mr. president, you are my friend before and after. i expect you to be there. he was there. michelle: what a history this is. it is amazing. a couple of people have asked questions about the young folks that congressman lewis was so interested in. i'm going to ask both the questions and then i will frame it a little bit.

maisie is asking, what can we do to cultivate leadership in our children, teens, and young adults? where's the other one? buck is wondering -- he works with college students, young people. he would like to hear more of how we can help our unemployed neighbors rather than, i have to have my spring break trip. the way that i want to frame this is, what did you hear john lewis say to young people when he was in conversation with them, as he was so often? what was his message? what would he invite those young people to hear or say or do that our listeners might pass on to the young people that they are working with? michael: i've had this wonderful

opportunity every year. it is the commencement season. i always made sure that i was on the schedule travel with him to every commencement. it was always exciting. i think the best way that i can think about that question would be, the congersman would also say in his commencement addresses to find something so meaningful and so necessary that you take yourself out of your own circumstances and concern yourself with the circumstances of others. linda: it was a prescription for a servant leadership. something is -- you said it. i'm sorry. it is what servant leadership is about. you are promoting the community or other people as opposed to yourself. something that means more to you

than you mean to you. that goes back to those core values. find them. stick with them. never lose sight of them. let them be your guide always. michael: get involved. find something so meaningful and go for it, he would say. that was his favorite slogan. go for it. he would tell everybody, go for it. jon: amen. michelle: fabulous. there are some really -- trying to figure out what order to pull these into. you all have -- none of us are going to be john lewis. presumably. or not yet. so we are presumably not going to get there. there's a question here about how you all were encouraged by him. in other words, john lewis was an extra ordinary human who

encouraged other people to be extraordinary. you all spent time with him in close proximity. what did he do for you that you tried to do for others? are there habits, practices, ways that you encourage others? based on what you learned from him. linda: for me, it would be teaching and encouraging others. i enjoy, i feel it's my responsibility to share with young people. i learned from them often a lot more today than before, especially around technology as an example. the responsibility to teach and encourage others is something that i learned from him. michael: i would say respect for other people. your fellow man.

just respect for other people and respecting their worth, their dignity. he would say all the time, really making sure that you extend yourself a helping hand. all the principles that we've talked about. just really being there and being a servant and a connection to somebody else that you don't know and really respecting them. jon: i'm not a good enough person to teach or inspire people. i will say this. i think i would've had a very different and darker view of the present and future of our democracy over the last five years if not for john. if not for his example. i believed all through 2015 to

2020 that we would in fact overcome. as i think back to why i thought that, part of it is, historically and theologically, so i'm fun to hang out with. american history is a series of provisional victories. those victories are innately provisional because our experience shows us, you go across the pettus bridge but george wallace wins in five states in the 1968 presidential election. you beat off mccarthy, you beat off wallace and you get what happened to the country from 2016 to 2020. there are recurrent, dark forces in american life. they have to be met by recurrent forces of light.

in our midst, there was an exemplar of someone who was willing to die for that idea. if we are talking about st. paul or something, it would be theoretical. that's what you are supposed to do in a setting like this. he was your friend. he was your mentor. i loved him. from afar. he was with us eight months ago, within the last year. here was this person who carried in him the resilience and the tragedy and the triumph of america itself. that's the story that has to be told again and again. i'm convinced that one of the reasons for the graphic novel, one of the reasons for the

picture, he always knew how to frame what was going on. he had engaged and encountered american history that way. through the radio, through the troy message, the montgomery advertiser. julian bond's job was to handle the press. that wasn't for self-aggrandizement. it was to educate. to tell that story. the story, i think ultimately of john robert lewis, is that america for all of its tragedies can in fact prevail. as hard as it is. randy: i'm going to jump in real quick. i have a question i'm dying to answer given what i'm hearing here. forgive me. if congressman lewis was

standing here today, right now, and i was to say to him, what are the most important things for us to be doing right now as a nation to really take on and pushback and battle against systemic racism in this country, what should we be doing? what do you think you should say? what would be his prescription? would he have one for this time in which we are living? is it any different from what he did his entire life? jon: i will jump in. certainly, there was a legislative agenda. what i heard him say again and again, deep into june of last year was, as terrible as things are, come walk in my shoes. if you don't think america can

get better, come walk in my shoes. disenfranchised, great grandson of a slave, dies a hero of the republic. that's not to make it all about him. but it does show that there is an innate moral impulse. this is your job. this is your business. an innate moral impulse to live in closer accord with ideas of love and charity and grace. he did it. so i think what he would say is, the sanctity of the vote, keep an eye on your lawmakers, policing reform. there would be any number of things. guns, top of mind again today. there's a principle that runs through it.

the principle is, we have an ideal. the question is how far we are going to settle from that ideal. can we go closer to it? i'd argue that the man who led us across the bridge got closer to that ideals and anybody else. michael: i know what comes to my mind is every time he would say, bear. -- hate is too heavy a burden to bear. for me, that was always the way forward. whenever he talked about love and peace, every day, every day. with his colleagues on the floor, he did not hesitate to talk about love and peace. someone would ask about, what do i tell my children? love is the way.

those are the things he talked about over and over again. they were words powerful enough that you had an opportunity to look at him and see the example on what they meant and how to get there. >> he could say them and mean them because he had done them. exactly. anything you would add? linda: i don't think i could add anything to that. i think that's exactly right. michelle: a couple of questions that are related to where we are today. jane is curious about how the congressman would have felt about the current activism of powerful black women like stacey abrams and alisha garza, which leads me to wonder, who are the people, in addition to john when he showed up on television, who were the people that congressman lewis was excited about listening to? who did he perk up around? who did he say, that person? i understand that there were probably many of them because he

was so generous. are there particular people who he would point us to? linda: i don't know if there would be particular people. i know that he would be excited about people who were courageous, who were creative, who were determined. linda: he looked beneath the surface. to linda's point, pointing out individuals would not be the right thing to do. there were so many people that he believed in. their leadership and what they stood for. randy: would you all say that he was pleased with some of the

young new leadership that was coming up in this country and that he felt good about it? michael: many people would try to ask him, who is the new john lewis? he would say, there's not just one. there were so many young people that are talented, active. he just wanted to see people getting into trouble. making sure that they were being respectful and mindful. understanding history. that was key. for young people, the ones he would tell, he would tell people when they travel, you have to know your history. you have to go back. he would talk about eyes on the prize. learn the lessons of the civil rights movement. understand how we did it. we didn't show up one day. you have to understand your history in order to go forward. linda: another thing he would say is to be authentic as he was. i will go back to this core values, know what they are, stick to them. when you are authentic, you are able to make people comfortable. even if they don't agree with you, they are going to respect you because i know where you are

coming from. that's the position you've always taken. it makes sense. it aligns with your core values. even if i don't like what you have to say, i'm going to respect you and i'm going to trust you. that gets you a long way as a leader. michelle: that's a good wrap on the questions that we have coming in. i don't know if you want to invite final thoughts or if you have another plan for how we wrap up this really extraordinary conversation. randy: i'm so grateful for all of you for joining us for this conversation. we have scratched the surface of so many other things we could talk about. how about a last word from each of you, something you might want to share or send us off with?

jon: quickly, i have two biographical tricks. one is to ask someone what their first memory is. the other is, what do you dream about? this was late, this was june. he said, i dream about the marches. i jumped in and said, do you dream about the violence? jim clark, bull connor? he said no. i could tell he was thinking about it. i'm an unpaid therapist as well. that's part of what happens. he said, i dream about the moving feet. i hear the feet. i hear the songs. i see the light. it's always sunny. and then i wake up and think, that's just a dream. but we have to all work so that is not just a dream.

randy: anything you all would like to send us out with? linda: i think that's a great finish. [laughter] jon: that's john lewis, of course. as ever, closing it out. randy: i would just like to say that one of the things that is most gratifying for me as a christian and a clergyman is to see a politician who served for so many years, who was so deeply committed to his faith, and that faith was so authentic. to hear you both talk about it and to make it so clear in the book that the bravest thing that he did was to hold on to this idea of love for his entire life.

that love was the way. that piece was the way. to cling to that through the ups and the downs, the good and the bad, that takes immense bravery it seems to me. that's why i was so curious to new if he had ever gotten jaded. it's an amazing thing. that's one of the great lessons that i'm taking from his life. he was not only willing to walk that way of love but to cling to it from the day he stepped out into the public world to the day he died. i give god thanks for that life. and i give god thanks for all of you for joining us this evening. thank you for being with us. thank you for your questions. god bless all of you.

now may we go from this place and time to find rest and recreation that we might rise to