of congress and the biden administration go to c-spanshop.org. virginia tech next historian david blight talks about the relationship between president abraham lincoln and abolitionist frederick douglass the abraham lincoln institute and ford's theater society hosted the symposium and historic ford's theater here in washington dc to

highlight the 16th president's life career and legacy. all right. as you'll see in your program stacy prep. mcdermott was scheduled to give the or give remarks about the hey nicolet dissertation award and unfortunately stacy was unable to be with us today. so you're stuck with me again. so like again michelle crowell chairperson of the board of the abraham lincoln institute. so i'm what i'm going to read are stacy's remarks slightly edited. as a board member of the abraham lincoln institute. i am delighted to share the news of the 2019. hey nicolet dissertation award each year the abraham lincoln institute in partnership with the abraham lincoln association in springfield, illinois presents this award to a dissertation that breaks new ground in lincoln scholarship. we look for dissertations that

offer fresh interpretive approaches to lincoln's life career and legacy or legacy that examines new evidence or that reevaluates old themes in exciting new ways. for dissertations this year drew extensive praise from our discerning committee, but our deliberations were brief and without contention very laconian because one dissertation stood out for its decidedly unique focus. the winner of the 2019. hey nicolet dissertation award is dr. thomas d mackey jr. from western, michigan university for his dissertation entitled a shrine for president lincoln analysis of lincoln museums and historic sites 1865 to 2015. so for the person who had the question about when do lincoln museum start, that's the dissertation to read you'll know all about it afterwards. dr. mackey accepted the award at

the abraham lincoln association's annual symposium last month in springfield. in his acceptance speech he noted that the idea for his research came from what he called his own checkered background in public history. he is currently an adjunct professor of history at indiana university east in richmond, indiana, but his dissertation is informed by 30 years in museum operations. he wrote his fine dissertation from the vantage point of his experience as a tour guide intern architectural historian trustee and a and a director in a variety of history museums in michigan, new york, virginia, virginia, ohio and most notably as the director of the abraham lincoln library and museum at lincoln memorial university and harrogate, tennessee. mackey was of course joking by calling his experience in public history a checkered past. but i think they're just exist. unfortunately a divide between academic and public history

which tends to undervalue public history abraham. lincoln is our most beloved president and millions of people each year are drawn to the various lincoln sites across the country just as they are drawn here to forge theater or to the lincoln memorial. they flock to these sites because they want to learn about the man and his times in ways. you can't always get from a book. they want to walk where lincoln walked see what he saw and they want to draw inspiration from his life and legacy through those tangible experiences. for me speaking as stacey prime mcdermott matthews well, i agree but still for me mackie's dissertation offered the historic context and analysis to explain how that power works. congratulations to talk to dr. thomas mackey for his work and thank you for all of your support of the abraham lincoln institute, which helps make the hay nicolete dissertation award possible. so on behalf of stacy pratt mcdermott the ali and the

committee from the abraham lincoln association. thank you very much. hello again, i'm jonathan white president of ali and i'm here to make a special announcement on behalf of the lincoln group of the district of columbia. the lincoln group of the district of columbia has been promoting lincoln scholarship in the nation's capital since 1935. the mission of the lincoln group is to study to educate and to engage new generations in understanding the life and significance of our 16th president. the education work of the lincoln group enjoyed a significant boost under the leadership of its most recent past president dr. john t elif. john died suddenly last august. he was a scholar and a dear friend to those who shared his enthusiasm for all things lincoln. john elliff was born in washington dc and grew up in illinois. he graduated phi beta kappa from

de paul university earned his phd in political science from harvard university and taught at barnard college and brandeis university. his career of government service began in 1975 and ended with his retirement in 2010. he had served on the staffs of both the senate intelligence and judiciary committees moved to the defense department and retired after advising the fbi national security branch on intelligence matters. dr. elliff was a frequent writer and lecturer on the life and times of abraham lincoln. he helped organize events, including the commemoration of this of the sesquite centennials of the first and second lincoln inaugurals along with programs at the national archives. he was on the boards of the abraham lincoln association and the lincoln forum, and he volunteered with the national park service as a speaker and guide here at ford's theater. john was generous and kind and devoted his time to furthering our knowledge and insight into our favorite president.

he spoke with the authority established by his years of study and his inherent intimacy with the subject derived from his illinois roots. one of his friends spoke for many saying i am a better person and lincoln scholar because of john elf. the board of the lincoln group has decided to honor john's memory in a program that unites his passion for lincoln education and his love for ford's theater. the board today is announcing the creation of the dr. john t ellef scholarship to support tuition for selected professional educators at the annual forge theater summer seminar. the scholarship will make this make the excellent programs here at fords more accessible to teachers across the country. the lincoln group will make this scholarship a focus of its ongoing efforts to raise support and money for lincoln education. for this first year four scholarships will be granted to teachers who will be selected by forge theaters staff. for the honor i am pleased to

acknowledge the work of our late colleague and congratulate the lincoln group of the district of columbia for its support of lincoln education programs here at ford's theater by creating the john t. ellipse scholarship. thank you so much. frederick douglass was a brilliant speaker a gifted writer. a stunning persuader and a man hard driven throughout his life. by the cause of black america he preached fire and brimstone with a passion and righteousness of an old testament prophet and he saw the civil war. as both god's retribution on the wicked. and the portal to new awakening for his people.

although i was somewhat acquainted with frederick douglass. i got to know him better. while researching the great and nearly forgotten black nationalist martin delaney but i never had a true sense of the many sides of the man. until i read david blight's exceptional new biography. frederick douglass prophet of freedom dr. blight is the class of 1954 professor of american history and director of the gilder lehrmann center for the study of slavery resistance and abolition. at yale university he serves on the boards of various museums and historical societies and in 2012 was elected to the american academy of arts and sciences. last month, he became the recipient of the 2019 gilder lehrmann lincoln prize. time is too short to recite the

dozens of awards. his books have won. and the various honors he has received. i cannot tell you how pleased we are to have him as a guest speaker at this year's symposium. please join me in welcoming dr. david w blake. thank you, ron, and thank you to the leadership of the lincoln institute. i have numerous friends here. particularly the previous speakers. it's hard to follow richard. carwardine nina silber. whether it's about humor or the movies. i am going to talk on douglas's relationship with lincoln. less about the actual relationship then with the meaning of the two lives. four and against each other,

especially in the great crisis of the election of 1864. if any of you were waiting with bated breath. for me to perhaps found the fourth time lincoln and douglas actually met. i'm afraid that invitation to tea. that douglas received from the president after the second inaugural but before what happened here didn't come off. but let me begin with this a reminiscence recorded by the wpa famous oral history narratives. in 1937 a former slave named cornelius garner was interviewed at the age of 91. he's asked if he had fought in the civil war by the interviewer. and god replied to his black interviewer. did i fight in the war?

well if i hadn't. you wouldn't be sitting there writing today. he described the corner and his native, norfolk, virginia. where slave auctions used to be conducted on new year's day. that day new year's day says garner. should be kept by all the colored people. that is the day of freedom. a day that is the day of freedom. and they ought to remember frederick douglass, too. says garner. frederick douglass told abe lincoln give the black man guns and let him fight. and abe lincoln say if i give them gun. when you come to battle. he might run. frederick douglass say try them. and you'll win the war? in abe said all right. our time now that's a lot of

history carbs into one little paragraph. of a reminiscence in the mind of an old man but it does begin to help us understand. the nature of the give-and-take particularly in rhetoric or in words between lincoln and frederick douglass the other douglas. in addressing this relationship. we are of course talking about two towering personalities. and to mythic figures as nina's previous talk certainly showed us their relationship. i i would say as much in language. particularly from douglas's side and what he had to say about lincoln than it was in the actual meetings. although the actual meetings are important they are men of very different temperaments. of course. although not completely dissimilar backgrounds both are

raised in poverty. want to chattel slave? the other the son of an indiana dirt farmer both seized on a similar array of books as they were coming of age. we know more about the exact books. i think that lincoln. red and used in new salem and a little bit beyond and we do exactly which books douglas focused on although we we know for sure douglas did a great deal of reading of the king james of the bible. and he particularly made tremendous use of that little book a little it's not a little actually the the manual of oratory called the columbian orator. compiled by caleb bingham in 1797 and that indeed that elocution manual was one of the books lincoln mentioned that he in particular had also read. in new salem this was a book.

that consisted of many many orations and speeches from classical antiquity, but also from the enlightenment era. and it particularly this book that douglas called his rich treasure which he first encountered when he was 12 years old among his white playmates on the streets of baltimore. it had a 20-page introduction that was was indeed a manual on oratory. and to douglas he had no more precious possession as a slave. and that little book i keep calling it little it's not that little the oratorical introduction tells the reader. how to position the arms the shoulders the neck how to modulate your voice from lower tones to higher tones how to reach crescendos and it particularly taught the order how to how to reach the moral

heart of an argument in your audience. both of them somehow have been influenced. by that little book i'm going to run very quickly through those. three very important meetings that douglas has with lincoln. and then i want to focus as i said. on the election year of 1864. i do this in part because it is so important to douglas. lincoln's reelection but also because i know i've spoken. before numerous lincoln groups before on those three meetings with douglas and i don't want to repeat myself. you might all accuse me of just telling the same stories over and over which none of us ever do it a lincoln-gatherer. the first meeting of course is august. 10th 1863 one of the great things about speaking to any lincoln group. as you all know so much and i don't have to fill in all the

details. that's also the scary part about speaking to a lincoln group. because somebody's going to catch me here. and you're going to email me. and i know you are because you do you're always do. and by the way, one of the risks of actually having your book read. fairly widely now you get a lot of emails from people with opinions. who also scrutinize your footnotes? hmm a couple of you are in the audience of it. we've already talked i know. and i've got a list of revisions to do for the paperback. yes. anyway, the first is august 10th 1863, and it's a meeting. of course the douglas sought out with lincoln. he had no invitation douglas had never been in washington dc. it was his first ever visit to washington. he was in the midst just then or actually had just stopped recruiting black soldiers. for the union army in his case

for the 50 famous 54th, massachusetts regimen he had stopped recruiting because of the brutal discrimination against black soldiers. particularly the unequal pay problem. he had recruited two of his own sons, of course into that very regimen. at this very moment. when he's meeting with lincoln and august of 63 his own his oldest son lewis. has just been moved north to new york. from charleston harbor where lewis had been very badly wounded in the attack on battery wagner. and douglas was soon to be in new york city at his son's bedside for approximately two weeks. lewis did recover, but it was never able to have children because of his wounds. at any rate. he went to protest the discrimination. and he had a very useful and important meeting probably no more than 45 minutes with the president.

he came away saying things like well, the president has shift his views necessarily and he reminded me how difficult his job is. um, but he came away awed by lincoln. i think there's any doubt about that. douglas came away saying in the speeches he would give about this quote. i felt big there. wow. that sounds like the teenager who just met his i don't know baseball hero or something. i felt big there. the second meaning a year later. not quite to the day but almost. august of 64, of course was this time at lincoln's invitation? the war has taken many many turns that you all know about but the worst of the turns. is the lack of a turn it's the stalemate in virginia and in, georgia. and it's election year. more on the election in just a moment. but in middle august of 64

lincoln invites douglas the greatest spokesman of black people the united states. to come to washington to try out a couple of ideas on him and if he can and list douglas's support rhetorically at least through newspapers, although douglas by this time is stopped editing his famous and important antislavery newspaper after 16 years this meeting was a bit longer. much more forthright and abraham lincoln looked frederick douglass in the eye and asked him to be the principal agent of a scheme. what douglas would go back and start calling in letters a band of scouts? that would try to funnel as many slaves out of the upper south. behind union lines into the north into some level of legal freedom before election day in november because there was a good reason to believe lincoln would not be reelected.

might be defeated by mcclellan and the democrats. war weariness was horrific as many of you know by august of that summer. there was no certainty. of lincoln's reelection. in fact it was a great deal of uncertainty about it. this scheme was lincoln's way at apparently of saying to douglas. all right. emancipation has become the great aim of this war let's get as much of it done before i lose this election. if i lose this election. exchange ideas on other things we could go into that later. now it's worth pointing out right here that one of the things that makes this relationship. so interesting is because both of these men had this extraordinary much written about capacity. for intellectual and ideological growth both and where they started?

in 1861 and where they come to by 63 and especially 64-65 is the extraordinary part of course of the story? and the first year of the war even year and a half of the war in 61 into 62. at least through august of 62. douglas was one of the fiercest critics abraham lincoln had in the north among antislavery advocates. at one point when the lincoln administration started to try to recruit douglas to be their colonizations czar, which means the person who would lead the schemes of the lincoln administration to remove black people from the united states. among other things douglas said as he called abraham lincoln an itinerant colonizationist lecture. full of the same negro hatred as all others. earlier on and the fall of 1861

when it appeared that the policy of the lincoln administration and the war was to return fugitive slaves who escaped into union lines. policy that was not easy to sustain. douglas at one point called abraham lincoln the most powerful slave catcher in america. he said even worse things. it was the preliminary emancipation proclamation. and especially the final emancipation proclamation that changed douglas's tune decisively. on lincoln in the wake of the final proclamation douglas did what he always did. he went back to right after the incredible celebrations in boston that he attended on emancipation night, january 1st 18. 3 he went back to rochester. he not only published that wonderful little editorial that he'd already written before. he left rochester. called a day for poetry and saul meaning emancipation day went to his desk to write down his thoughts.

i'm convinced about douglas of many things and other things i'll never quite figure out like any biographer. because there are ways in which frederick douglass was not as not so knowable just like lincoln was not so noble. even for a man who wrote 1200 pages of autobiography my god. is he hiding a lot? but nevertheless he went to his destiny wrote a new speech. it was called the proclamation and the negro army. and he took it on the road as he always did all out across the midwest gave it dozens of times it became the speech in which he worked up his ideas as a recruiter of black troops. and in that speech he among many things said famously. this proclamation frees us all. it frees the entire country. he said it frees the white. union soldier it frees the white

confederate soldier. it frees the black soldier. it frees black people that freeze white people it freeze us all. douglas understood the emancipation proclamation beyond its own text. as did many before and after it was written. but that 64 meeting, of course. comes at a incredibly difficult sensitive moment. because of this election year now the third meaning of course is at the second inaugural and i'm not even going to go into that. douglas was right out in the crowd. off the lincoln's left here i am not going into it. he was right down there. when lincoln gave the second inaugural and after was over douglas tells us he had no invitation to go to the white house reception, but he simply walked over to pennsylvania

avenue. over there and just followed the presidential carriage back to the white house. insisting to get in he got in line. asked if he could come in. first they said no. gave his card said tell the president i'm here. didn't take long. somebody came back and said come on in. they did have an encounter. i guess probably in the east room. or lincoln and insisted douglas tell him what he thought of that speech. now douglas said a great deal of it's the greatest speech ever given by an american president. and douglas, i think had so long wished he had written that speech for lincoln. the great thing about it, of course, is that lincoln wrote it? lincoln wrote that third paragraph of the second inaugural every drop of blood shed by the lash shall be repaid by bloodshed by the sword.

possibly lincoln's greatest antislavery statement of the meaning of the war. let's back up to that election year. now a little background it's first time a republic ever tried to hold a general election in the midst of a civil war not an easy thing to do. lincoln of course won't be on on the ballot in the south. we all know that. the 13th amendment abolishing slavery had passed the us senate in the winter of 64, but not past the house as a required two-thirds majority. the republican party by these spring and summer campaign when it's not clear. even the lincoln would get the renomination over the renewed efforts of some of the more radical republicans to bring back john c fremont conceived as more radical. the 13th amendment was already

the republican party was the party of the 13th amendment now. whether they want to be or not. they're the party of abolishing slavery. and what are the democrats do exactly what political parties do and all elections? they stamped the republicans right in their forehead. emancipation and worse it became i always tell my students. the 64 campaign became the most racist election of american history until the next one. because 68 was in many ways even worse. grants real grant's first election the democratic party employed utterly explicit uses of white supremacy everywhere every day. in all kinds of media methods they painted lincoln as abraham lincoln abraham africanus the first they called him, you know the widowmaker they called they called him the inward lover and

and worse. the republican party stood for nothing, but they said miscegenation a word. i know many of you know this a word that was literally coined and makes it into the american dictionary. that year republicans were the party of racial mixing if you elect these republicans again. it's just going to mix the races and destroy the gene pool and all the rest. now i'm leaving out the worst. i mean the cartoons that were put out the lithographs that were put out about miscegenation balls being held at the lincoln clubs all over the country. there were no balls and no clubs, but it didn't matter. this is the way they were portrayed. now the republicans now lincoln is going to get the nomination the renomination of the testy testy process to say the least frederick douglass flirted. for a little while supporting fremont he did.

he backed away from that. in june of 64 the problem now was and by the time douglas visits lincoln at the white house. august 64 the republicans are trying to kind of sidestep and dip. and do a dipsy do on the emancipation issue? even lincoln proposed a letter that he asked douglas about face to face. should he publish this public letter? he asked douglas saying, you know, i can't free the slaves unless the people really wanted it. it was this namby pamby idea that douglas took about one second to say mr. president. don't publish that letter whatever you do. anyway worst of all members of lincoln's cabinet usher the

secretary of interior and especially seward william h seward obviously secretary of state. started making statements about how well you know emancipation is not the centerpiece of our war effort just yet. we're willing in the long run said sure to leave this to the adjudication of the courts. now, what does that mean? nobody knew there's an executive order saying all the slaves in the states and rebellion are hence forward and forever free and must be freed by the army in the navy and black soldiers are being recruited into the army in the navy. you're gonna leave it to the court douglas was deeply disappointed and frightened by what he was hearing from official republicans. very frequently. but he was once again for the second time awed. by the fact that lincoln invited him this time and so would you help me set up this game to free as many slaves as possible. now douglas went home to

rochester new york barely two weeks is all he had he started recruiting people to help him and to be part of his band of scouts agents. we're supposed to do this. he started recruiting fellow recruiters of black soldiers to do this friends and abolitionism. he may have written as many as 20 people to get this scheme going, but the truth is i don't think douglas had a clue. he was supposed to do this. all he was told was the war department will. help you. yeah. mom happily he didn't have to worry about it after two weeks. and the reason of course was the fall of atlanta. it was battlefield victories. and not just the fall of atlanta. and the first week of september when sherman took atlanta, it's as everyone here knows. on the most important turning points of the war. militarily but also politically and what it did for northern morale, but then they're shared and successes in the shenandoah

valley and in the last week of august. don't forget admiral farragut took mobile bay. i think it's august 25th. the largest naval engagement of the entire civil war a huge event. when mobile fell to the union navy. the scheme of freeing these slaves out of the upper south was basically just disbanded. and the election campaign was on now. lincoln, excuse me, douglas wanted a campaign for lincoln. and the republican party wouldn't let him. they're out there trying to duck and dodge on the emancipation issue. the last thing they want is sending out frederick douglass. to give his barn-burning speeches about abolitionism in all the wrong places. now the truth is he will campaign for every republican president the rest of his life. they wouldn't let him take the stump in 64. he resented it he. outraged he was angry.

but he had no choice. what he did do he went to syracuse new york in october to a big black convention. and the famous tradition of the black conventions. delegates from all over the country including five southern states. and he gave a barn burner of a speech about the right to vote. not just about completing the war for emancipation, but the sacred quality of the suffrage. and he declared that the war would never be over until every treasonous. slaveholder was dead or in custody. it's the war propagandist once again in douglas. out there doing this now. not entirely sure. yet. as late as this date. how to trust that republican party the election of course came and on election night, and

by the way, this i found a little source for this. i only have one source, but by god i went with it. because these are one these are some of those clippings you find you think. thank you thank you god. in a private collection, that's has everything to do with why i wrote this book. there's this little clipping. and everyone in this room was a lincoln scholar knows that everybody who had ever met lincoln seen lincoln. imagine they'd seen lincoln had to rabbit reminiscence of imagining that they had been with lincoln somewhere. well, the same thing went on with douglas by the 1880s. and early 1890s not on quite the scale. all kinds of reminiscences the day i did this with douglas the day i saw douglas do that. it's a little reminiscence published in a rochester newspaper in 1881 by the man who claimed to be the pole. worker on the night of the election of 1864 and that he had put douglas's ballot in the

ballot box by god. i decided to believe him. because the best part of the story is he lived right near douglas. he's a real person. and he and douglass he says we're welcome back into town douglas that lived about a mile from downtown. welcome back into town late at night. about 10 o'clock to go to the telegraph office and learn all the national returns of the election night. and while they're coming back into the center of the city says this man for drunken white thugs come out of an alleyway and they challenged douglas. call them inward over and over and over and there was a little clash between them. but then this testifier says but the drunken white thugs one nothing to do with douglas and they scurried back into their holes and douglas had. a physical and a political triumph now, i don't know. that really happened, but why not?

screen lighter screenwriters can have that one. you know, that's anyway but here's the key. and i will end with this. a little two-part story douglas then did what he had done so many times in rochester. the sunday after the election obviously lincoln was re-elected decisively. well way over decisively in the electoral college, but particularly decisively even in the popular vote particularly because of the soldier vote. douglas went to the local black church on the sunday after the election spring street. african method is episcopal church. he had spoken there just countless times. he could have that pulpit any time. he wanted it. he'd given many lecture series there. he'd do like four-part lecture series on sunday afternoons. all the time in the 1850s during the warriors, he'd go to spring street ame. he went to spring street ame

sunday after the election. how important was lincoln's re-election? douglas opened the speech by reading from genesis and the dove came into him in the evening. and low in her mouth was an olive leaf. plucked off so noah. knew that the waters. were abated. from the earth i was this text. douglas told the story to his well churched. mostly black audience of noah's ark noah sent the devil dove returns olive branch and the beak something's growing out there. noah sent the dove out again. and the dove does not return. and in the story the great old

testament story noah decides to take the tarp off the ark and low the world have been renewed. as a text. as a place put his audience. and the meaning of this election? which wasn't just about lincoln it now means yeah. this war now is going to be prosecuted to its ugly horrific bloody end, but it's going to mean black freedom he went to the oldest rebirth story. western civilization classic frederick douglass when he needed a story and he does this dozens and dozens and dozens of times. when he needed a story or he needed a metaphor. he went to his king james. he went to the great stories of the old testament. variations on exodus or

variations on many other stories, but he wasn't finished. in that same speech he announced that the following sunday. he was going to go to baltimore. for the first time ever since he escaped from baltimore. as a slave in 1838. he hadn't been back. he'd actually been through baltimore on the railroad. getting to dc, but he never got off. so i'm going to baltimore next week. i'm returning to my native soil of maryland and he said the reason was. because marilyn had just held. a referendum on november 1st to decide whether to become a free state. in the midst of war they had just held a referendum and the vote had been this is almost hard to believe. but it had been. 30,174 to 29,799 it passed by

like 300 votes out of 60 some thousand. narrowly maryland had voted to be a free state. douglas said that i'm going home to the free state of maryland. and he did a week later. he returned to baltimore paparazzi in tow the equivalent in the 19th century. and hence, we have good press coverage of this one. he returned. to the bethel ame church on dallas street in fells point there's a fells point expert here today who is going to correct any part of this i get wrong. he returned to the bethel amy one of the churches. he had attended as a slave. as a teenage slave. and what happens? at the front entrance he encounters his sister. whose name was eliza? mitchell a lot on older sister about three years older. he hadn't seen her since 1836.

eliza had managed she has a fascinating long story. she had managed to purchase their own freedom. should also had some seven or eight children. she had named her daughter. for her famous, brother by giving her the middle name douglas. she remained illiterate. but she had somehow followed the fame of her. brother it's not absolutely clear douglas even recognized her at first but whatever. he grabbed her by the arm, and he analyzed and walked up the center aisle. the bethleheme church to a altar were told was surrounded by american flags. and one of the local papers called him the illustrious exile. and he opened the speech again with noah's ark. but with a twist he told of noah sending the dove out of the ark

and the dove comes back and branch in the beak. noah sends the dove out again. the dublin has not returned. the douglas says you know, it takes the tarp off the arc. and low the world is renewed but he said today i am the sign. i am the dove. that i have returned to the free soil of maryland. i am the dove. now that takes foot spa. to put yourself into the noah's ark story. and get away with it. but it was his way of personalizing. this great great ancient old. deeply mythical story. it's classic douglas. putting himself into the biblical tale putting his people into the biblical tale and putting his nation.

into the biblical story let me end with this. if you go ahead a little to that spring of 65 when he will meet lincoln again at the second inaugural. doug said he had a new speech he was. taking on the road. this winter and spring he called it. black freedom the prerequisite of victory and in this speech he trotted out another biblical story. knowing his audience needed a story a metaphor back to the significance of storytelling in douglas was a genius not only with words, but with story. this was the parable of lazarus. and the rich man from luke 16 douglas believe that with emancipation and the defeat of southern slaveholders americans witnessed what he called the fulfillment.

of the tail of a quote certain poor man who laid at the gate of a rich man. in the ancient story that has inspired a black spiritual. and a famous modern folk song rock my soul in the bosom of abraham. we could stop and sing it but not yet. a rich man was clothed in purple and fine linen. and fared assumptuously every day says douglas. a poor beggar perfect. i don't even need the five minutes. a poor beggar named lazarus full of sores from leprosy late at the rich man's gate. desiring to be fed crumbs which fell from the rich man's table dogs lick the poor man's wounds both men die the beggar is

carried by the angels into abraham's bosom. while the rich man is buried and descends into hell. as he begins to burn the tormented rich man sees lazarus of fire off. resting and this is the way douglas is telling the story although he's got whatever accurate means to the bible here. if our officing a comfort and security and abrahams embrace, the poor man's is in abraham's embrace. and he cries out. the rich man father abraham have mercy upon me and send me lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. as the rich man is slowly engulfed in flames. abraham or god in this case answers that the tables have turned and it's too late. he scolds the rich man for never

listening to moses and the prophets. in this case douglas brilliantly employed the parable. and his auditors seemed to love it. wherever he gave it. everybody is calling for lazarus now at the north and the south douglas announced in this speech. we all know who the rich man is in this country. and who the poor man is? or has been the slaves were these are douglas's words lazaruses of the south lying at the rich slaveholders' gates, but it has come to pass said douglas. in his best king james paraphrases that the poor man and the rich man are dead. for both have been in a dying condition. for some time eliciting great laughter and applause from audience after audience with this speech from january into april 65.

he concluded that. the poor man is said to be very near and abraham's bosom and the rich man is crying out. father abraham send lazarus by april in boston douglas confidently applied the story to lincoln and the end of the war? richmond had just fallen the haughty slaveholding confederates we're in flight. those quote arrayed in purple in silk and satin. with breasts sparkling with diamonds were defeated. and pleading to have their lazaruses back. send lazarus back cried the rump of jefferson davis's revolution. and robert e. lee's army. douglas provided the new answers but father abraham says if they hear not grant.

north sherman neither will they be persuaded? though i send lazarus. unto them with an arm gesture to the sky douglas shouted a transformation i say we are way up yonder now. no mistake. and with his audience shouting for approval in quote great merriments that are reporter. douglas had recrafted a piece of scripture to fit the moment. of impending victory for the federal union and for black freedom just how much the mortal father abraham's bosom. or the united states could hold. and comfort the freed people as they came back to life. was now to be determined. and very soon. the mortal father abraham was gone. thank you.

all right questions. yes sir you david given how strongly douglas felt about the war. and given the number of hits he took over his actions. how do you feel he justified to himself his refusal to actually take part in the war. thank you. oh, he had many justifications. actually, like any biographer. i can't speak for all of us, but i think antibiographer always wishes. they could have their subject. in a room a seminar room for maybe four or five hours with no bathroom break. the doors are locked and we get to have adam. and near not at the top but near the top of my list of questions

i have for mr. douglas is mr. d what did you say to your two sons? when you recruited when lewis and charles when you recruited them into the 54th, massachusetts at the age of 20 and 19. mr. douglas, what is a father say to his sons? to send them into a war within not only can die, but they can be enslaved. did they go for their reasons or yours? were they your surrogates? man, i am i'm gonna really hammer him on this one, but every time i've tried he just slithers out some douglas knew his skill which was the word. spoken and written he had third son. of course who went into the mississippi valley frederick jr. his youngest no in the middle the middle, son. went to the mississippi valley and recruited black soldiers. he recruited a significant portion.

up north as well of the 55th, massachusetts. the entire douglas family went to war his daughter rosetta married a black soldier a former fugitive slave named nathan sprague a terrible marriage it was ultimately a really awful marriage and it kind of had a huge impact on rosetta's life. he got accused of not joining as a soldier, but he's in his mid 40s. but look douglas would safely said it many times. he said it in the wake wake of the john brown rate. i've never been known as a warrior. i'm known as a man of words. much better as an order. i'm better at fleeing from slavery going back to fight it which of course induced a cartoon of him a famous. i have it in the book. of him fleeing over the over lake ontario with his trunk on his shoulder leaping over the

river. he's fleeing. the john brown raid i think the best answer is he knew his best skills? and they were not as a warrior and after all. in what way would he have served? is it going to be a non-commissioned something or other? he did serve though. a recruited about a hundred members of the 54th, mass. and he recruited a lot of other people to be recruiters. of black soldiers yes, sir. you just give a lead into my question. oh good you could you compare lincoln and douglas's view of the john brown raid. in a few sentences sure. well, ironically in the long-term not that far apart. that's what that's what was so extraordinary to douglas when he sit in there in august of 64 and

lincoln is asking him to create a kind of a legal above ground. john brown's raid into the upper south and funnel these slaves up, you know at one point in his autobiography douglas had called the underground railroad really an overground railroad. you know, he thought all that underground stuff was over overestimated. douglas was a very vehement supporter of john brown until and it's very i have an entire chapter on this in my book and i believe i located nine occasions. and was douglas and john brown met. over the 10 years 11 years they knew each other. but where douglas parted ways with john brown? is only learned that the raid was going to be harpers ferry. the largest arsenal in the united states he's still went down to as you know, went down to pennsylvania and met with john brown and the stone quarry for 48 hours near chambersburg.

to try to talk brown out of it. what douglas was attracted to i'll get the lincoln in a second what douglas was attracted to was john brown's long discussion vague discussion. sorry for the john brown saint hood club. i turned in my key to that a few years ago, but don't the supported brown won the plan was what brown had once called the subterranean passageway. which was supposed to be this? series of forts somehow man by lots of men it was going to be a kind of militarized underground railroad douglas was so desperate by the late 1850s. he was willing to keep supporting it and you raise money for it. but when you find out brahm is going to attack the largest federal arsenal he said no, i'm out of here lincoln's reaction to john brown was a typical republican antislavery reaction lincoln's reaction to john brown

was to condemn the acts. which he did? and argue that john brown deserved to be hang. at the same time lincoln and many of the republicans would then still focus the story back onto the issue of slavery and if we don't solve this problem do something about this problem. we will have more violence and more john brown's. that was there. that was the republican move. of course that scared the you know, what out of southerners. and they were already scared of lincoln and scared of the republican party. so in a sense, they're not that far apart. although there were no letters from abraham lincoln and john brown's trump that they found in maryland, which there were from douglas which is why posse was out trying to capture him up in rochester. would you think it's fair to say that both of them feared the effect of john brown's raid in getting the south to dig in its heels?

further and moving the south further towards session. possibly lincoln feared that more than douglas did because douglas had long yearned. for some kind of break some kind of actions something that would force. a collision and a conflict between north and south that would lead to some kind. of sanctioned violence ironically the war that actually comes like it or not was douglas's fondest dream. and when it did come the war propaganda came out in him. and some of the ugliest most vehement ways. you'll ever read war propaganda. i suspect lincoln had greater fear about that that oh my god. now, how do you how do you hold this thing together in the wake of john? how do you well lincoln's first task was to get elected. and he goes to give the cooper union speech. in the wake of john brown's

rate. so lincoln has a whole different problem on his. as do the as it is the whole republican party. in the wake of john brown. thank you. yes. last question, come on, you get one more go for it. oh, here we go. all right. well traveled man frederick douglass. yes, the possibly more miles than anyone in the 19th century. did he have a green book? yes. and no. it wasn't a green book. abolitionists from the 1840s on when he joins the garrisonian itinerants. stayed wherever they had friends it wasn't unlike what we now know as the green book. they would stay in private homes. they would stay in taverns and hotels.

wherever they found french friendship. early on in his career. this was always a difficult issue. douglas and this itinerate group. he traveled with particularly in the early 1840s. which was a series of from three to five abolitionists including abby kelly. who was the the star the woman's star of the abolition movement. in fact, douglas's first couple years out on the circuit. it was second fiddle to abby kelly. until he wasn't they would stay with friends, but they would often go into towns and just leaflet the town and say hey, we'll speak today over here. if somebody will let us in often. they couldn't speak in certain churches because it wouldn't let them in they were too dangerous and so forth. when he does these enormous speaking tours say after the war. year after year after year thousands of miles at a time three and four thousand miles at a time 35 and 40 lectures over a period of three months two months three months.

he had all kinds of lists of places friends if you want to beloit, wisconsin there was that family who would put you up. if you were in iowa city there was that family who would put you up, but he stayed in a lot of taverns and hotels as well which got him into all kinds of jim crow situations. if you've read the book, you know this the douglas was jim crowd more times he could ever count. and and with time he began to process it through humor. can i end on one quick story? sure. he got again, jim croce. so many times as he is early years it would react without rage? i mean he physical outrage. when he gets thrown off trains thrown out of hotels. later on if he was stopped in a dining room of a hotel somewhere and this is in the north. and he was told you can eat in the dining room. you must eat in the kitchen. he would often just stand up and as loudly in that booming

baritone as he could. where do you feed your dogs the dogs? we're the dogs. i'll leave with the dogs. where are the dogs and pretty soon everybody in the dining hall is kind of coming to his aid. and on they're beginning. oh miss, you know, mr. proprietor let the man eat in the dining hall nollywood the dogs. it's all right. give me the dogs. where are they? you know and pretty soon the whole place is a well at least the way he told it. the whole place was a chorus. let him eat here. let him eat here, you know. it didn't always work. it didn't work on steamers. and then you're on a steamer out somewhere and anywhere else to go but down to the lower deck. you know. anyway yeah, he had a kind of green book. without it being green. so, thank you.

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significant supreme court decisions and for the next several weeks watch key episodes from our series sunday at 10pm eastern on c-span the 1919 case shank v united states that allows the government particularly in times of war to limit freedom of speech the court upheld the conviction of activists charles shank who distributed leaflet surging young men to resist the draft during world war. i watch landmark cases sunday night at 10 eastern on c-span online at c-span.org or listen with the c-span radio app. c-span is your unfiltered view of government or funded by these television companies and more including charter communications. broadband is a force for empowerment. that's why charter has invested billions building infrastructure upgrading technology empowering opportunity in communities big and small charter is connecting us charter communications

support c-span as a public service along with these other television providers giving you a front-row seat to democracy. up next on american history tv john stauffer talks about his book giants the parallel lives of frederick douglass and abraham lincoln in his january 2009 program. he compares the two men to the recently inaugurated barack obama the national archives hosted this event and provided the video. today in the midst of a very historic week with the inauguration of our new president. we have a most fitting. and timely book lecture by dr. john stauffer you know over this week as i've viewed some of the different news programs. they are continuously repeated refrained by many of the commentators. was that president obama stands on the shoulders of some key historical figures?