service along with these other television providers giving you a front-row seat to democracy. up next on american history tv john stauffer talks about his book giants the parallel lives of frederick douglass and abraham lincoln in his january 2009 program. he compares the two men to the recently inaugurated barack obama the national archives hosted this event and provided the video. today in the midst of a very historic week with the inauguration of our new president. we have a most fitting. and timely book lecture by dr. john stauffer you know over this week as i've viewed some of the different news programs. they are continuously repeated refrained by many of the commentators. was that president obama stands on the shoulders of some key historical figures?

who paved the way for him? well two of the most important of these figures. are the subjects of doctor's office lecture and book which is entitled giants. the parallel lives of frederick douglass and abraham lincoln john stauffer received his phd from yale university in 1999 and began teaching at harvard the same year. he writes and lectures on the civil war era. antislavery movements and social protest movements and vegetable culture he is the author of seven books in more than 45 articles including. the black hearts of men radical abolitionists in the transformation of race, which won four major awards including the frederick douglass book prize. the avery craven book award and the lincoln prize runner up. his essays have appeared in time magazine. raritan new york post 21st the

journal of contemporary photography and the harvard review excuse and he has appeared on national radio and television shows currently dr. stauffer is completing a book with sally jenkins on the radical interracialism and unionism and civil war era, mississippi. the story free state of jones will appear as a major motion picture. by the filmmaker gary ross with whom he served as a scholarly consultant after his lecture, there will be a book signing at the archives shop. and without further ado, let us welcome dr. john stauffer. thank you very much for that wonderful introduction and thank you for coming can everyone hear me in the back. i'd like to speak for about 45 minutes, then. i'll open it up for questions

and answers in criticism and comments and i want to speak for a few minutes just about how this book came into being the background of giants. then i want to summarize some of the key themes that i describe in the book hopefully to what your appetite to read it if you haven't and then i want to spend the last five or ten minutes discussing the see of both lincoln and douglas on particularly barack obama obama has been deeply influenced by both men. i've written about the influences in the new york times recently in the huffington post and other places and i want to share with you some of my thoughts. i should say that i started writing giants. right around the time that obama launched his election there is campaign at a time when very few americans believe he could actually get elected and the book was published on election day and having steeped myself in

both frederick douglass and abraham lincoln during the 21 months of obama's campaign. i felt like i have a very good understanding of what i would refer to do is to obama phenomenon. i actually felt after hearing obama launch his campaign in springfield that he had a very good chance of winning because of having steam myself and douglas. can so i want to share that with you at the end first the background this book really began as a chapter in a larger project that i'm working on which is on interracial friendships in american society. my previous work of has focused on some aspect of inner racial friendship. why do i think they're important? i think that friendship throughout history throughout western culture has been a central theme for philosophers for political thinkers for writers because friendship was seen as a symbol of democracy

from plato and aristotle through the quakers who very self-consciously define themselves as friends through the founding fathers through people like walt whitman emerson thoreau frederick douglass friendship was seen as a kind of test case of how well democracy was working throughout western culture people. believe that a virtuous society was one in which friendships flourished and in the new united states, which was unlike classical greece or rome in which americans were very self-consciously patterning themselves americans understood that this new society was a multiracial one. so in thinking about how democracy functioned on the ground people began exploring the concept of inner racial friendship to see how democracy was working and people from as i said whitman emerson thoreau

frederick douglass interracial friendship was a key test case for how well democracy was doing i published a version of that in time magazine in 2005 when lincoln was featured on the cover as a founding father and as i continue to ride on that chapter and after publishing time magazine, i quickly realize that that threatened to overwhelm the rest of my book on interracial friendship because of the significance of both abraham lincoln and frederick douglass. and so i decided to just to write a separate book just on those two men and by pairing them together. i felt that i could do i could accomplish a number of goals. i think a dual biography allows a writer or scholar to move the lens so to speak to change perspectives in order to see to famous men who've been written about a lot in new ways and interesting ways abraham lincoln

is one of the most written about figures in american history. probably the most written about individual in american history. and so one of my objectives is what can i say? that's new about abraham lincoln and i felt the by viewing him by seeing him framed or reflected against frederick douglass i could offer some new interpretations. primarily. i think one of things that i do with lincoln is i deromanticize him. i demythologize him. i think lincoln continues to be written about in ways that suggest a mythological figure. what do i mean by that a lot of writers see lincoln is being essentially perfect particularly during his presidency. he truly was in my view the greatest president. he was a brilliant politician, but i think too many writers see him as someone who never made a mistake who's every action was was a perfect one so to speak and that is to create a myth not

a human to be human is to make mistakes to be deeply flawed and i felt that by acknowledging highlighting even some of the flaws i come away and hopefully readers would come away respecting and appreciating him even more by understanding how far he was able to grow by pairing him with frederick douglass. i also wanted to to represent and to to show douglas in new light and especially by showing him in a light that sees him as an equal as significant as abraham lincoln most of my previous work has been on antislavery abolitionism and i've written a lot about frederick douglass. he appeared in the black hearts of men i've written i've edited his second autobiography and in probably a hundreds of talks that i've given on frederick douglass the first thing i ask to audiences is how many of you here have read anything by

frederick douglass and the answer depends among whites just about every african-american is read frederick douglass, but among whites. it's very age dependent most whites over the age of 50 barely even know who frederick douglass is much less having read anything by him most whites under the age of 35 are familiar with frederick douglass, which can which the degree to which douglas has entered the classrooms have entered high school and college curriculums. and i think douglas is crucially significant figure as important in his own right as lincoln and by writing a book that pairs lincoln and douglas. i felt that i would be able to reveal that or show that giants is a book that more than anything else is about parallel lives that converge frederick douglassen abraham lincoln. i argue are the two preeminent self-made men in american history douglas began his life as a slave.

he had zero formal education and he was the most famous black man in the world before the age of 40. his rise was truly extraordinary and he in his day was seen as one of the greatest writers in orders in his day throughout the 1850s and even into the 1860s douglas was seen as a better order than lincoln. most people remember think of lincoln as a great order and he was but for in his time lincoln pailed with respect to douglas douglas was able to obtain greater royalties greater speaking fees than just about any other individual and the fact that he was a black man. he was able to do that is truly extraordinary link and most do you know the lincoln was born in a log cabin to say it was a log cabin itself is to romanticize it. it was really a kind of three-sided hut with one side exposed. he was what his contemporaries referred to as poor white trash who grew up to become emerged to

become the greatest president. and so there to the two preeminent self-made men in american history who converged in the sense that douglas met with lincoln three times at the white house. he was the first black man to meet a us president in terms of near equality to advise him and they considered each other friends and the fact that they considered each other friends with significant given the importance of scribe to friendship in that time period in the 19th century. in ways that i never could have envisioned before beginning research and writing the book. they led striking surprising parents surprisingly parallel lives many common occurrences in their rise in their self-making which struck me because one is a white man grow who grows up in

essentially the south in born in kentucky grows up in indiana and illinois both state settled primarily by southerners and douglas slave. most people think of that slave and white man is totally different during that time period what are the commonalities of the parallel aspects of their self-making of their upbringing probably first and foremost is the fact that more than any other factor they were able to rise up because they learn how to use words as weapons. they understood the importance of literacy the importance. of being able to articulate their thoughts in order to convert their audiences to their cause and both of them learned how to hone their skills of literacy. and writing both of them virtually memorize the same six books long before they ever met they both read reread virtually

memorized the same six books any of you have any ideas what those books are? the bible is one pride the most important and the bible for you know, this was a period in which common education was not that well, no particularly in the south particularly in the in what's now the midwestern states, you know many young boys did not have formal education if you only have one book to read aside from it, the religious significance the bible is in my view. probably the greatest work of literature in western culture. both of them quoted liberally extensively from the bible. they read and it. what else shakespeare both of them lincoln love shakes for most people know that douglas could quote shakespeare almost as as comfortably as lincoln. could you are great. what's a third? any thoughts pardon no, close close.

pardon. close very good close though if shakespeare is the most was the most famous writer in america at the day in the day, which he was i mean shakespeare now is read primarily by the well-educated the time shakespeare was read by he was read by yeoman farmers in mississippi. i mean all classes red shakes are blacks whites rich poor everyone red shakespeare, which is a phenomenon when we think about it today the second most famous writer at the time was lord byron. douglas in particular loved byron, but so did lincoln byron's poetry was seen by americans as emblematic of american ideals of freedom. byron was seen as the great freedom fighter both in his poetry and in his life. he died for the cause of freedom in greece. so that was the that was another figure another is the columbian order, which is a collection of speeches.

designed for young boys to learn how to become orders. this was a time in which public speaking oratory was one of the only forms of public entertainment. it was analogous to becoming it was analogous to being a rock star movie star radio personality today no matter where you started in life if you could be a great order. there were few limits to how far you could rise and both douglas and lincoln understood that and caleb bingham wrote the introduction to the columbian order and in it. he taught he told young boys. how do you learn how to be a great order here are emblematic speeches great speeches throughout history from cicero through great english writers, but he taught young boys. how do you position your tongue so that you can lose your pronounced accents both lincoln and douglas had horrible what we would think of today is just

horrible accents accents that that betrayed them being as being as being ignorant as being stupid and part of being a democratic gentleman was to lose some of your pronounced accent lincoln retain more of his accent or dialect when he entered the white house then douglas did but calum bingham taught young boys how to position your tongue so you could lose your accent borrowing from cicero. and others how to speak with the proper cadence so that you could reach a large audience and that was a book that both men learned and virtually memorized link in their instances or people remembering lincoln going out into the fields and and speaking to the crops in the prairie douglas read douglas was forbidden to read his masters wouldn't let him read he shine shoes received some money purchase to use copy of

columbian order and kept it hidden. it was the only thing that he took with him when he became free. so that was a crucial book other another book was the esop's fables esop's fables. most of you are still familiar or familiar with it today the best way to describe esop's fables is that it is a an oral tales of slaves. it's a slave narrative. it's a slave. narrative a collection of oral tales of slaves from classical antiquity from ancient greece and that was a book that was bestseller widely read it then and it's still is read today. so they they read the same books. they were familiar with the same the same literacy the same examples of books that helped write them rise up through using words as well.

and another common parallel was that they both defined a fight. as a major turning point in their young lives and it's ironic because at the very time in which both men were describing our characterizing themselves as intellectuals or aspiring intellectuals a fight became an important turning point for frederick douglass. it was a fight with the famous slave breaker named edward covey douglas who grew up in the eastern shore of maryland. he was fortunate in being able to move to go to baltimore because his master had died and that's where he learned to read and write and that's where he acquired his copy of a colombian order. he was sent back to the eastern shore of maryland. he was now literate and with literacy. he gained a sense of empowerment and when we return to the eastern shore his new master thomas old considered an insolent because he looked thomas alden the eye he talked back to thomas aldi stood up to

him. and so thomas all decided that he that douglas needed to be be disciplined and there was a man. ensured by the name of covey who was known as a slave breaker by that. he meant that he was someone who broke the will of slaves so that they would become good or proper slaves douglas was hired out to work for covey for a one year and to do hard labor for covey and douglas for the first six months of his tenure with covey was mercilessly whipped every at least once a week and he said that the welts on his back from the whips were this thick as his thumb bloodstream down every week and he was whipped again before the old wounds or even healed and after six months of enduring this douglas decided finally to stand up to covey douglas was very big first time. he was over six feet. he was very strong very muscular. covey was about five seven and

when douglas decided to stand up to covey he realized that he reached a point in which he was not afraid to that was the essentially the cost of standing up to him. he stood up to covey. they had a two-hour epic fight. it was and douglas was disciplined throughout this fight so that he could have killed covey in my view or he could have seriously named covey. he chose merely to beat coveying this fight and in the wake of this fight douglas said that he would he defined himself thereafter as a free man in form, even if he would be a slave in fact and from the moment of that fight douglas vowed to become free covey for his part never divulge the fight douglas could have easily been sent south into mississippi or him been killed or so seriously maimed it would have virtually destroyed him. coby didn't divulge the fight in part because he wanted to preserve his reputation as a

slave breaker. so this fight also highlights the degree to which douglas i argue was privilege slave he was a privileged slave because one he was he was born in maryland not in mississippi or alabama if you were born in the deep south your chances of becoming free were virtually nil the vast majority of slaves who became free were in the border states. he also suspected douglas was the son of a white man and a slave woman. he's expected that his father was also his master and there's some evidence for that given at how well he was treated. he was not only not punished because of the fight with covey douglas before he actually did run away attempted to run to run away and he was captured most slaves who were tempted to run away and were captured out were either sent into the deep south or whip so hard that they were permanently maimed and douglas in the way in the wake of his attempt to run away was promised

his freedom at the age of 21. so he was a privileged slave lincoln. his part grew up was also lucky. he was lincoln was most people know of link and how big lincoln money he would how big lincoln was he was six four again. so he was taller than most men by almost a foot. lincoln grew up in like douglas in this vicious backwoods community. i think many scholars have romanticized the prairie background of lincoln. it was a vicious backwards community in which the defining aspect of manhood was the capacity to fight hard and to drink a lot. to one of the reasons why both douglas and lincoln abstain from alcohol their entire lives because they understood the destruction that alcohol caused in their communities lincoln. moon had just moved to new salem, illinois at the age of 21. he described his first 21 years

as a slave because technically had to turn over all of his money to his father. he's finally free from his father who he didn't like because his father was not interested in education not really interested in literacy was a a labor a carpenter and a farmer and lincoln arrives in new salem and one of the local leaders there was a man named jack armstrong jack armstrong was essentially a thug and he and his buddies love to lure strangers into poker games steal their money and beat them up jack armstrong like to get into he liked to roast live pig. here it's the sounds of it squealing before it died. one of the most common forms of fighting in the backwoods of illinois was what people called a rough and tumble no holds barred rough and tumble and it was a kind of fight in which it was not uncommon for a man to lose and nose part of an ear a

finger to have testicles ripped out and the great prize in this fight was to liberate an opponent's eyeball and keep it as a prize. this was a brutal environment armstrong wanted to fight douglas the best that we know as in a rough and tumbled lincoln lincoln said, no, i don't want to do that all i'll wrestle you i will wrestle you. i'll have a regulated wrestling match in which it was a less brutal form of fight one each man. had to keep an arm on the other people came from all around from miles around to bet on it. at which was common in fighting. it's unclear exactly what happened in the fight. but what we do know is that that they called it a draw armstrong fouled lincoln. they fight ended they called it a draw. no one lost money and in the wake of that fight lincoln quickly became a leader in new salem and also a friend of jack

armstrong within within roughly six months lincoln was already running for the state legislature. he became the captain of his company in the black hawk war and from that point rose up quickly both men married up in there. i argue their wives were central to their self-making douglas mary to free black woman, which was very unusual when he returned to baltimore. it was very unusual for slaves and free blacks to interact in that way and anna murray. it was anna murray who was primarily responsible her money was primarily responsible for allowing douglas to dress as a free sailor to purchase a train ticket and to take a train north to new york city where he became free in 1838 without her help his chances of becoming free would have been i think profoundly limited.

most people are many people see mary todd as this mad woman or crazy woman mary todd was at least as sophisticated about politics as lincoln was mary todd grew up in kentucky near the home of henry clay, who was the hero of a statesman for lincoln. she was a friend of clay. she was an aristocrat lincoln in marion mary todd made a very wise political decision mary todd lincoln advisling mary todd advised lincoln in every step. of his rise through politics and so without their wives i think that potential for them rising up would have been very slim indeed. the first time that douglas ever refers to lincoln as an 1847 douglas is moved to rochester, new york. he's now a newspaper man already

the most famous black man in the country is virtually a household name. he becomes famous overnight because of his autobiography, which is a bestseller in this sense similar to obama and he writes about lincoln in the context of lincoln's term in congress and douglas refers to lincoln in as part of a rogue's gallery of congressmen who oppose a bill to abolish slavery in washington, dc. now, why does lincoln oppose this bill to abolish slavery in washington dc as a congressman because it deviates from lincoln's vision or strategy for ending slavery lincoln hated slavery lincoln said in numerous occasions that he hated slavery as much as any abolitionist and there's no reason to doubt that but his strategy for ending slavery was very was threefold one very gradual.

very congenial so it's to not uproot society to end in fact in his debates with steven douglas in 1858. lincoln said, when do i think slavery should end when will ultimate extinction of slavery occur? he said not less than 100 years. that would have placed the end of slavery at the very earliest barring civil war in 1958. it's a very gradual antislavery. lincoln also advocated compensation to masters for the loss of their property, which this bill in washington dc did not call for it's one of the reasons he opposed it and lincoln also called for or urged the subsidies for colonization for colonizing blocks out free blocks outside of the united states. so in essence his vision of america was a white one and douglas was outraged at lincoln's opposition to this

bill to end slavery and probably the before they became friends. they were quite frankly enemies and this is highlighted in the lincoln's first inaugural in 1861. the closest frederick douglass ever came to losing his faith in america repudiating the possibility of america ever living up to its ideals in the declaration was in the immediate way of the first inaugural why because in the first inaugural lincoln does two things says two things in particular that outrage frederick douglass one is remember if that when lincoln gives his first inaugural the seven states had already seceded the confederacy had already been formed in lincoln is appealing in his inaugural primarily to southern states the upper south that lincoln hopes to prevent

from seceding and in that inaugural address lincoln first vows to vigorously defend the fugitive slave law, which many northerners viewed as unconstitutional because it virtually legitimated the kidnapping of free blacks. it completely ignored the due process of law. second and more onerously in that first inaugural lincoln affirmed or embraced a new constitutional amendment that congress had just passed a few days before lincoln gave his first inaugural congress had passed the first 13th amendment. most people remember the 13th amendment as the amendment abolish his slavery the first 13th amendment which congress had just passed in an attempt to conciliate with southerners was an unamendable amendment. that guaranteed slavery in the slave states forever.

now lincoln had run on a platform of prohibiting the spread of slavery with the goal for its ultimate extinction. that was lincoln's basic platform. now accepting this amendment the guarantee slavery in the slave states in frederick douglass's mind lincoln was contradicting or suddenly running a cutting against the basic platform and he says i'm out of here he plans a trip to haiti with the goal of emigrating there and he refers to lincoln as a slave hound and as a representative american racist now as a way to understand their differences at this point. the best way to summarize lincoln as a politician is to say that his that he as president sought first and foremost the preservation of the union who's based on his the oath of office that he took he hoped to defeat the confederacy

and preserve the union. the question of slavery was always secondary to that chief objective. and frederick douglass his fundamental identity and he was one of calling for an immediate antislavery and racial equality under the law throughout his life. those were the two things that frederick douglass championed. and during the inaugural in the wake of southern states seceding douglas felt that the quickest way to reunite the nation was to end slavery douglas chose not to go to haiti because the civil war broke out fight with the fire and unfortunate fort sumner douglas recognized that the civil this war offered a way to end slavery douglas was very familiar with john quincy. adams's statement is far back as 1836 who had in quincy adams had stood up in congress and said to southerners if you keep being

belligerent, there's gonna be a civil war and if there's a civil war the constitution allows under its war power claws allows the congress and the president to end slavery constitutionally. for frederick douglass slavery itself represented a state of war and he believed that because slavery represented a state of war. he called for the immediate end of slavery even before the actual war broke out and because in his mind for constitutional reasons and douglas said after immediately after fort sumner started calling on the president sending his newspaper to the white house saying and slavery, that'll be the quickest way to end the war because this slaves constitute constitute the stomach of the rebellion. unless you emancipate the slaves four million blocks roughly one third of the southern states are aiding and abetting the confederacy. they're feeding the confederates.

they're building roads for them. they're building fortifications. they're building trenches for them. and if you emancipate them you'll have in theory four million people that will be on the union side. lincoln ultimately came to recognize the military validity of emancipation slaves as a war measure, which is precisely how the emancipation proclamation was phrased. he emancipated slaves as part of a war measure and so in their their divergence to the convergence call resulted in the fact that douglas and lincoln had two very different objectives that that converged and their friendship was more than anything else utilitarian when they first met in 1863 in the wake of the emancipation proclamation douglas recognizes recognize that he needed lincoln on his side to help him achieve

his objective of the universal emancipation and quality under the law and lincoln recognized he needed frederick douglass. this side douglas was essentially the ambassador of african-american in order to win to achieve his goal of preserving the union. the the details of their first meeting were that in in august of 1863 douglas had been he had been recruiting black soldiers the emancipation proclamation of effectively called for the arming of black troops and douglas had devoted from january of 1863 until early august full-time to recruiting blocks. he virtually single-handedly recruited the famous, massachusetts 54th called black regimen his two sons two of his sons were his first two recruits

douglas got fed up with recruiting because of the administration's policy. he was fed up because black's soldiers were being paid half of what white soldiers were and they were not being promoted for valiant duty and so he decided to take his case to washington dc. he goes takes a train to dc he arrives in the city. on august 10th of 63 early in the morning goes right to the white house. there's already a long line of people waiting to see the president lincoln was known as having an open door policy admitting just about all callers douglas stood in line. he thought he was going to have to wait all day maybe more. sent up his card within two minutes. he's called up by lincoln. and as he passes these whites and line to go up to see lincoln. he hears one of them say i see how it is. let the -- through. he arrives in the office lincoln

knows douglas because he's so famous. he says hello, mr. douglas. it's good to see you. i know about you. i've read you what can i do for you? douglas states his case to lincoln lincoln vows that he will make every effort to pay black soldiers the same as white soldiers. he acknowledges that he's been very tardy both in emancipation and in giving us equal rights to blacks and he also vows to promote buck soldiers at this first meeting douglas and lincoln acknowledge that politically they're very different douglas after all is a radical activists lincoln is a politician douglas call. it wants the not only immediate into slavery. but immediate racial equality lincoln's chief goal is preserving the union, but they at this first meeting define themselves afterwards as friends why in part because they both

have enormous respect for each other as self-made men. one of douglas's most famous speeches was on self-made men. they recognized the accent the dialect of each other. in fact in my book. i try to convey or capture what each man sounded like at various stages of his career and in fact after that first meeting president lincoln told the next person that he saw in the white house that he had just met with frederick douglass, and he said i consider mr. douglas one of the most meritorious men in these united states. lincoln or douglas said after meeting lincoln that he considered link in king of self-made men. so they both had great respect for each other as self-made men, even though they disagreed politically. the second meeting occurred a year later at a time in which the war was going very poorly for the north lincoln thought he was going to lose re-election. it was august of 1864.

northerners were tired of fighting and lincoln felt sherry was going to lose to the democratic nominee george mcclellan now mcclellan ran on a platform of negotiated settlement with the confederacy immediate peace, which would have left slavery intact. and lincoln calls douglas to the white house for an urgent meeting. douglas comes to washington meets with lincoln in the white house and lincoln tells douglas. i'd like you to plan and embark upon a john brown scheme. in which you'll invade the south with an army of black and white bring as many blacks as possible to union lines worst-case scenario is that i'll lose the election to to mcclellan but thousands more blocks will be in union lines and free before

slavery is remains permanent in the confederacy best case scenario these thousands more black that comes to union lines. will aid the union effort lead to a major victory. turn the tide of war convention northerners that the war will soon be over and we can finish off this fight. frederick douglass was amazed at this request because douglas had been a close friend of john brown john brown if you remember was the most radical white abolitionist of the day john brown had with an army of blacks and whites in 1859 went south raided took over the federal arsenal harpers ferry, virginia with an eye toward distributing the arms there to slaves and inciting a massive slave insurrection, although douglas had opposed john brown from going to harpers ferry. it was only because he thought brown was going to lose his

life, which he did. brown was captured. he was tried for treason and executed for treason and that harper's ferry affair was one of the last sparks that led to the civil war. frederick douglass, however consider john brown one of the greatest men in these united states. that's a quote from douglas. john brown wrote his provisional constitution, which would govern those areas that brown hope to liberate from slavery in douglas's home and brown could not write a grammatically correct sentence douglas. it's the most it's the most eloquent document brown ever wrote which suggests that douglas essentially edited for him. he was very much in favor of brown a conspiring against the united states in order to enslavery if he thought it would work now lincoln and all republicans distance themself

dramatically from john brown when hit it occurred lincoln said, i agree with brown and principal meaning that i agree that slave he's wrong but john brown committed trees and against united states government, and he justly deserved to be home now four years later president. his calling for douglas to embark upon a john brown's scheme and is in essence john brown has been mainstreamed. it was also a period in which most northern soldiers sung the john brown song as they went to fight as a form as an inspiration in fighting the confederacy. douglas planned this john brown scheme a few weeks later though general sherman vic was victorious at atlanta began his march to the sea it transformed northern opinion and essentially a clinched lincoln's re-election. so that scheme never went into went into practice the third and final meeting. was during lincoln's inaugural

address douglas was invited to the address in the reception. he had essentially a front-row seat. he sat right in front of lincoln. lincoln saw douglas when he gave his address douglas went to the reception at the white house in the wake of the inaugural dress. this was in march of 1865. the war was virtually over. they're almost 200,000 blocks troops marching throughout the south. douglas was initially barred from entering the white house when he gets there because the policeman says you're not allowed to enter blacks aren't allowed to enter in douglas as there must be some mistake. he sends his card in lincoln admits him when lincoln sees frederick douglass. he's with a group of lights and he says here comes my friend frederick douglass. it's good to see you. i saw you in the crowd today what there is no man in this country who's opinion? i value more than yours. what did you think of my address

and frederick douglass responds mr. president? that was a sacred effort. within a month lincoln has been assassinated. there's very good evidence that had lincoln lived douglas and he would have remained very close friends despite their political differences. so what's one of what are the lessons of their friendship one is that political differences do not necessarily correlate into inner social inter-social behavior douglas and lincoln genuinely liked each other. they felt genuine affection for each other even though they never agreed politically even in 64 and 65 douglas's plan for reconstruction. douglas's hope for reconstruction was much more radical than lincoln. he advocated immediate suffrage for all blacks. he had advocated immediate suffrage for black men and women and immediate racial equality

under the law lincoln representative isn't of his entire political career wanted reconstruction to occur much more gradually, but they genuinely felt comfortable in part because they shared common background they shared common interest and also they understood that they were facing a common enemy that threatened their identity and their livelihood another crucial reason i think for their convergence. relates to the very definitions of self-made men both douglas and lincoln understood that self-making reflected the idea of oneselfer of the self in a state of continual evolution and flux. meaning that innate who lincoln and douglas were in 1840 were totally different than who they were in 1845 1850 1855 1860 and both men never change so dramatically as they did during the four years of the civil war

now this idea of self-making contradicts contradicts the very notion of racism. because racism depends upon a self that is permanently fixed. it depends upon one self who is permanently superior and white to another self who is permanently inferior and non-white. and by embracing this idea of self-making or the self and in a state of continual flux or evolution it contradicts this notion of racism, which is another important reason why they were able to come together. what are the legacies of these two men? i mentioned that obama has been deeply influenced by both douglas and lincoln obama has unfrequent occasions and not acknowledged his debt to lincoln. he hasn't so much with frederick douglass. i think for two reasons one is obama very much defines himself

as embracing a post-racial america and frederick douglass has come down to us most of people today as a race man. and so for that reason he wants to he has not acknowledged his debt. that's it to see douglas solely as a race man. is is erroneous douglas in his own day was very similar to obama douglas in his own day sought to to move beyond the division of race and reach a common understanding between blacks and whites. douglas's friendship with lincoln was one of numerous friendship friendships with whites that douglas had douglas was a close friend of john brown. he was a close friend of garrett smith. he became a close friend a very close friend of charles sumner particularly at the end of the war in reconstruction, but because douglas has come down to us as a race man obama has distanced himself, i think second particularly during the

campaign and probably more significantly obama understands that if he acknowledges his debt to frederick douglassen said, he's been deeply influenced by douglas. donuts will quickly seize on that fact recognize the douglas was a radical and a friend of john brown and say there you go again associating with another terrorist. what is what is obama learned from frederick douglass as he says in his book the audacity of hope he says there are periods there are instances in which power will concede nothing without a fight and that's what i learned from frederick douglass and both obama and frederick douglass understood that words were the most potent weapons for fighting this opponent. that's one thing that he learned from douglas. another thing that he learned from douglas is and i'm now paraphrain douglas true art will break down racial barriers.

douglas was as i've emphasized one of the greatest writers and orders in his day much as obama is and frederick douglass would get up to speak before an audience of whites and most of the whites and that audience before seen and hearing frederick douglass assumed that blacks were subhuman. most whites in douglas's day believed that blacks were incapable of self-government. and they would listen to douglas's very rich deep bariff tone voice. they'd hear as eloquence. they'd see his beauty and frederick douglass was nothing if not handsome even his enemies acknowledged that he was majestic in his wrath as one convert said of him and they'd hear him and they'd see him perform and they'd essentially shed their racism and be converted to the cause of abolitionism and they're

numerous examples of that happening. one one instance is douglas goes to buffalo new york to speak on abolitionist and buffalo was a city when he arrived in which virtually no one was an abolitionist. all people want to do is make money. he's in buffalo for 10 days and in a period at 10 days the tenth day. over half of the city comes to hear him on the green. no, no auditorium can even hold the audience's and he's converted the multitude. true art breaks down racial berries. there's numerous examples of obama. before whites her obama saying i can never imagine myself voting for a black man. they hear obama. they see his majesty his eloquence his elegance. they see i think most people acknowledge obama to be immensely handsome. they see his performance. they too shed their racism and vote for him. i think the best way to understand obama's political

campaign is as a artistic performance. a very very successful artistic performance which is and the crucially important thing that he's learned from frederick douglass in many respects frederick douglass is the most direct descendant of barack obama both men are children of one white one black parent both men became famous overnight world famous almost overnight on the strength of their autobiography both men are among the great writers and orders of their day, ironically though. i think obama shares more in common with lincoln. why well first and foremost like lincoln obama define himself as a politician as a politician, he's constrained by what he can do. he need for him to accomplish anything. he needs to get elected. so no matter what he might think

privately he cannot publicly espouse certain things that will destroy his potential for getting elected. he is acknowledged his debt to lincoln about the about the significance the importance of being pragmatic. about the willingness to sacrifice one's moral certainty in the greater goal of reaching for common understanding over racial over various social divisions and both lincoln and obama have been very effective at their at employing their pragmatic vision. i think another read another similarity or something that obama has learned from lincoln that not as many people have emphasized. is that is that lincoln had a brilliant sense of public opinion and he understood that the relationship between a political leader and the public was really one of a dialectic a politically there should not

simply internalize public opinion and echo it back. a political leader should also not try to put a stranglehold on the public and force him to the direction that he wants to go but rather understand the large diverse views of the public. and through eloquence through language inspire them to move towards this collective or common goal. douglas and lincoln like obama today, i think function more than anything else is inspiration douglas and lincoln inspire us as obama has continually said that he hopes to do inspire us to bind up national wounds to complete the unfinished work of the nation and by fulfilling the ideals of freedom inequality of opportunity for all americans. thank you.

and any questions comments criticisms? yes. how long did>> how long did frek douglass lives after lincoln died? >> another 40 years. he gave numerous talks on lincoln. he considered lincoln the greatest american statesman. but, he was also very honest. i think but he was also very honest. i think the most accurate assessment of lincoln to this day is when douglas gave the speech at the friedman's monument in 1876 commemorating lincoln's assassination. it was a speech in which the

congress was all their. the supreme court were all there. president grant was there. it was the statue in case you have not seen it, is a statue of lincoln with the emancipation proclamation on one hand, and his other hand outstretched over a kneeling sleeve. the kneeling sleeve have been -- in the abolitionist movement, douglas didn't like the statue. he said in his speech, because his speech told in the dignitaries saying mr. lincoln, we, blacks are president lincoln or mr. lincoln's -- . which no doubt shocked his audience because lincoln's chief goal was preserving the union and then douglas did what he often did in the speeches, he learned the reversal. you started one plates, you and in another. he said we are lincoln's step

children. but because lincoln ultimately recognized that in order to preserve the union, he needed blacks on his side, although we are his stepchildren, through his transformation we became accepted as part of a national family. it's a stunning, moving, brilliant speech. douglas gave the various aversions of that for the rest of his life. douglas was immensely inspired by his friendship with lincoln. he was proud of it. he felt like he grew as a individual because of it. and there is evidence lincoln to not say as much about his friendship douglas. but there is good evidence that lincoln was profoundly moved and transformed through his friendship with douglas. that douglas helped push him in directions that douglas wanted to go. yes. >> i appreciated you are

mentioning the readings they shared. and how telling they were. you mentioned six my recollection is the colombian orator, biden, he stops fables, shakespeare, and the bible. what was the sixth? >> the bible, shakespeare, lord buyer in, rather burns poetry. >> thank you >> lincoln loved earns because horns is a farmer who embraces his rich dialect. and lincoln had memorized most of burns. >> lincoln was apart himself. >> i argue that they are two of the great writers in american history. yes. >> [inaudible]

they have a more optimistic view of human nature? >> i would say not really. the reason i would say not really is it relates to their religious differences. frederick, one of the justification's frederik dole is calling for immediate -- douglas to find himself as a profit. douglas believes that he knew that god believed slavery was horrible. douglas knew that he believed that god knew that slavery was wrong, and wanted it and it immediately. and douglas believes that one

could dismantle sin. douglas understood that throughout human history one of the justification for slavery is that all humans are sleeves in one form or another. because of genesis, because of adam and eaves original sin, all humans are sleeve to their son. their slave to god. their sleeves and life. part of being human is that you can't overcome sun and olson was a form of bondage. douglas was essentially as a abolitionist inverted that relationship between -- and slavery and said that slavery is a horrible scene. humans have the capacity to dismantle son becomes three both achieving inner freedom as well as outer freedom. we can, the best way to summarize his religious views is that he had a calvinist sensibility. lincoln continually said that it was hubris to try to know

what god want, to leave he knew what god wanted. the most one could do is look for signs of what one thought god wanted. because of that calvinists sensibility lincoln acknowledge the innate depravity of humans. he acknowledged their capacity for evil, which is one of the reasons for his pragmatism. i mean douglas was someone who heart of this version of the perfect society, and believe that it could be realized. racial equality and universal freedom. and that reflected his deep, entering faith in humanity, and dowd with god. in the book i essentially say that frederick douglass embraced the idea of sacred safe sovereignty. in other words he believe that the kingdom of god is within you and theoretically all individuals.

lincoln was much more skeptical of the potential for what i will call perfectionism yes >> should we sit down? >> oh i'm sorry. i'm sorry. >> obama's approach, the way he raced funds, internet allowed him to draw on money that ousted political interests. is there equivalent for lincoln? vested interests? the cotton pickers? the shippers? where did they come out? >> that's a great question. not in any direction parallels like unlike obama in the 1860 political election was a real dark for us. lincoln didn't even enter the national political scene until

beginning with his debates with stephen douglas. the real similarity is both demands capacity for being such eloquent and elegant public speakers. and even and even critics acknowledged a lot of lincoln in his day and that is true of obama in terms of the institutional grassroots campaign that obama had so successfully employed, there was some of that equivalent in illinois, but because times have changed so dramatically it is hard to draw direct parallels there. so you had a question? >> i was fascinated by actually two things. several. >> okay good >> the one piece with douglas comes to washington, you actually have a

replica of a cast and lincoln writes on it >> yes, yes, right. >> i assume these are douglas his papers that are in the library. >> they are >> whatsapp and with that? the commission promised. it would be good to see what he did when he was a part of the military. >> my other question is to john brown. how did douglas get away with the situation, they did not hunt him down in the united states? >> right, right, to get questions. the first one i don't have time to get into. in the first meeting with lincoln, douglas meets, he goes to the white house with sam, a abolitionist senator from kansas although palomar was really in the background and a

first go to's dan, and he was so taken with douglas is debating skills and knew of douglas that he promises douglas a commission as a officer, as a black officer, which would allow douglas to go south and recruit blocks from the south into the union army. for more blacks in the south which meant that his ability to recruit would increase dramatically in the post master montgomery general signed the declaration saying that douglas is a union man giving him the pass to go anywhere he wants. and lincoln, douglas tells likened that he has just received a commission to be a union officer. douglas goes home and he ends his newspaper because he's already been promised this commission to be a black

officer in the union army and he's immensely proud of this. the commission falls through. and never happens. it's probably because at one stanton understood the symbolism behind commissioning douglas as a union officer and outraging and alienating conservative northerners that reflected the conservatism, the comparative conservatism. douglas never really blames lincoln. what lincoln knew of this failure of the commission because lincoln had to sign all the commissions. had douglas, and douglas thought briefly of going south anyway without the officer bars on his soldier, the gold bars, he decided not to go because he felt it would be much more dangerous, and that he would be less effective at recruiting so he continued to recruit in the

north. but it was frustrating. when douglas ended his newspaper, it was the longest running newspaper in the 19th century. he had been very proud of the prospect of being a black officer. raid?why was douglas not capturd during and after john brown's right? the short answer is he almost was. when the news hit that john brown had rated -- john brown had been captured. there was a letter from fredricka douglas to john brown in his nap sack. and the president buchanan essentially granted all federal officers the license to capture fredericton glass wherever he was and sent him to virginia for trial, and almost certain death. technically, douglas was an accomplice with john brown because of his close friendship

with them. douglas immediately got news of. it he mediately fled to canada. in fact, it was from can bed that he wrote a newspaper. he wrote a newspaper article saying, acknowledging this friendship with brown saying that he does not propose, conspiring against the u.s. government as long as it will work because the true ideals of the government are for freedom. he then goes to england for six months. and when he returns, essentially congress has a senate investigation over john brown's reign and they understand how politically combustible the rate is. in order to try to prevent more sectional tensions they specially don't prosecute anyone. and when douglas returns, he's able to, no one accuses him of being a conspirator. and then, by once the civil war break so, increasingly americans come to agree with

frederik douglas who said in the wake of brown's death, he said john brown started the war, when the war broke a, john brown said he started the war that would hopefully and slavery and increasingly northerners came to agree with that. which is why i said in 1864, john brown who had been seen as this radical fanatic by 64, he is mainstream. majority of northern soldiers are seeing the john brown song as they go off to battle. yes. >> in your estimation of the two young men personally, to what degree in your opinion to the politician, the activist notion of the ideal, and to what degree did the activist elevate the politicians notion of the possible? >> great question. great question. i wouldn't say jason.

their relationship again as something of a dialectic. i think the idealist and the politicians should work together, acknowledging that they will never entirely converge. but the idea left can inspire the politician. and the politician can highlight to the idealist the costs of trying to realize ones vision. or the practical problems of doing so. and douglas was, i would characterize douglas is it prudent revolutionary during this time. it's one of the reasons he didn't go to john brown. john brown spent two days trying to convince douglas to go with him. he said i don't want to go. i'm going to die. i think you're going to die. the list was very, very prudent and disciplined. while he was a idealist, he wasn't like john brown i would

argue eight reckless idealist. in that sense, douglas also shares a lot with obama. immensely disciplined as individuals. >> you could is there a mid 19th century ideal of friendship that you are drawing on here? >> no, that's a great question. the characteristic of friendship, initially in western culture, most of western culture was that it was a likeness in a double sense. you like the friend and you were like the friend. now, there's a flaw in that basic definition for most of western culture, which is that the friend had to be just like you. in fact, for a restart, for played oh, for thinkers even for quakers for the most part a

rich and a poor cannot be friends. forever startle, man and woman cannot be friends because they're essentially different. and certainly, and ethnic other, ethnic racial other and someone else cannot be friends. that started to change in the united states soon after the founding of the nation because of this awareness of this friendship as a symbol of democracy. we need to think about the racial friendship. but the fact that douglas and lincoln setting aside their racial differences were like each other in their self making the background. and did come to like each other i think think is significant. i second characteristic of friendship is equality or near equality. which douglas and lincoln shared. the third isn't that they're actually in this time in the united states to different understandings of a friendship.

would is spiritual friendship. the second is utilitarian friendship. utilitarian friendship is the friendship that douglas and lincoln achieved and that utilitarian is i'm depends in part upon again something from you, you gain something for me. which i spelled out. lincoln realized that douglas could help him preserve the union, lincoln could help douglas achieve his goals of ending slavery. special friendship, the difference between spiritual friendship and utilitarian friendship is that spiritual friendship is one that the two individuals share a common spiritual world and sensibility. i risotto and plateau said, essentially that a spiritual friend is as though two bodies unite into one soul. and the term that we would use today would be soulmates. and americans were very self conscious about their use of friendship. and douglas is correspondents

in his letters after meeting someone in the first series of letters with someone he'll say, respectfully yours or sincerely oars. and when he first uses the term your friend, i mean, that's a significant moment. the whole tone of the letter has changed. in the 20th century, friendship has become much more used in the service of commodity shun, of commodities. so it doesn't have the significant spiritual or political or otherwise. in the 20th century, the most common reference to friendship is through dale carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. friendship is used in the service of selling. there is a breakfast cereal today and the united states called good friends. which features an interracial couple on the cover. so, unfortunately, i think friendship has lost some of its

political spiritual cultural significance. yes? >> you mentioned that there's very little documentation -- that suggest lincoln's exception of douglas -- just wondering, how much -- may not have been supported by documentation. the question i have [inaudible] [inaudible]

>> another great question. there is not very much material from lincoln describing his relationship with fredericton glass. i rely heavily though on douglas himself. i've read all of fredericton glasses letters, history and autobiographies and douglas as an ex slave and his african-american understood the significance and importance of truth telling. and douglas had an amazing memory as well. he's even remembering incidences of ten, 20 years earlier. he sometimes get a few details wrong but the basic facts right. and so, the characterization of lincoln's attitude towards douglas comes primarily from douglas. douglas had no reason to falsify or romanticize lincoln

's perception of him, really. and then, so douglas is the main source for my characterization of lincoln. and i want to emphasize that douglas, you know, as i said, it wasn't until their first meeting that douglas really started to see lincoln in ways that he felt he could really even interact with him. douglas wanted to meet with lincoln in the white house before the emancipation proclamation, there's no way that lincoln would've amid it. because it wasn't in lincoln's interest. and so douglas recognized that lincoln was politically very different and still conservative but douglas had the capacity to feel comfortable around lincoln, even though they disagreed so profoundly. the point you make about lincoln's other members in the administration, both in the

cabinet and in congress was also next line one because i characterize lincoln as a conservative republican. the two front runners for the republican party or for the presidency in 1860, jason seward were much more progressive. both of them, for example, believed if that slavery was unconstitutional. blinken did not. lincoln thought it was constitutional. i'd argue that it was john browns arrayed with douglas is endorsement or friendship with brown that helped lincoln get elected for a variety of reasons. but to see lincoln as a conservative republican who was pushed by circumstance to a place where he otherwise would not have gone is important. i mean, lincoln himself said events controlled me. i didn't controlled them. and i think that's important to understand. who lincoln fundamentally was was not a radical and to to

brew through -- was a radical stance. those were the two basic template of northern abolitionists. lincoln, i mean it's questionable how far lincoln everyone in terms of racial equality, given his vision of reconstruction. but, he was pushed by events and i think part of his greatness reflects that lincoln understood that. he understood that he was pushed in a certain position. that there was already a social transformation occurring in america. in 1860, very few northerners believed in racial equality or equality under the law. and again, universal emancipation. biting 65, the vast majority of northerners embraced universal freedom and increasing numbers, large numbers understood the

significance of giving blackmon vote. and so, lincoln innocence reflects the social transformation, which is a result of the civil war. thank you very much.

next on the presidency. historians harold holds her and at the green medford and david blight talked about the views of abraham lincoln and fredericton glisten emancipating those held and slavery. they tracked the revolution on the issue from early in their careers through the civil war. the new york historical society is the host of this event. good morning. everyone happy new year 21. welcome to the historical society. i'm the president and ceo. it's always a thrill to see all of you in our beautiful robert h. smith auditorium every morning. today's program. frederick douglass.