c-spanshop.org for copies of books from our featured authors. ♪♪ ♪♪ up next on american history tv, john stauffer talks about his book "giants: the parallel lives of frederick douglass and abraham lincoln" in this january 2009 program. he compares them to the recently inaugurated barack obama.

the national archives hosted this event and provided the video. >> today in the midst of a very historic week with the inauguration of our new president, we have a most fitting and timely book lecture by dr. john stauffer. over this week, as i view some of the different news programs, a continuously repeated refrain by many of the commentators was that president obama stands on the shoulders of some key historical figures who paved the way for him. while two of the most important of these figures are the subjects of dr. stauffer's lecture, which is entitled "giants: the parallel lives of frederick douglass and abraham lincoln." john stauffer received his ph.d. from yale university in 1999 and began teaching at harvard the same year. he writes and lectures on the

civil war era, antislavery movements, and social protest movements. he is the author of seven books and more than 45 articles including "the black hearts of men: radical abolitionists and the transformation of race" which one four major awards including the frederick douglass book prize, the avery craven book award, and the lincoln prize runner-up. his essays have appeared in "time" magazine, "raritan," "the new york post," and "the harvard review." he has appeared nationally on radio and television shows. dr. stauffer is cleating a book with sally jenkins on unionism in civil war era mississippi. the story "free state of jones" will appear as a major motion picture by the filmmaker gary

ross with whom he served as a scholarly consultant. after this lecture there will be a book signing at the archive shop. without further ado, let us welcome dr. john stauffer. [ applause ] >> thank you very much for that wonderful introduction, and thank you for coming. can everyone hear me in the back? i would like to speak for about 45 minutes, then i'll open it up for questions and answers and criticism and comments. and i want to speak for a few minutes just about how this book came into being, the background of "giants." then i want to summarize some of the key themes that i describe in the book, hopefully to whet your appetite to read it if you haven't. and then i want to spend the last five or ten minutes discussing the legacy of both lincoln and douglass on

particularly barack obama. obama has been deeply influenced by both men. i've written about the influences in "the new york times" recently, in "the huffington post" and other places and i want to share with you some of my thoughts. i should say i started writing "giants" right around the time that obama launched his election, his campaign. at a time when very few americans believed he could actually get elected. and the book was published on election day. and having steeped myself in both frederick douglass and abraham lincoln during the 21 months of obama's campaign, i felt like i have a very good understanding of what i would refer to as the obama phenomenon. i actually felt, after hearing obama launch his campaign in springfield, that he had a very good chance of winning, because of having steeped myself in douglass and lincoln, so i want to share that with you at the end. first, the background.

this book really began as a chapter in a larger project that i'm working on, which is on interracial friendships in american society. my previous work has focused on some aspect of interracial friendship. why do i think they're important? i think friendship throughout history, throughout western culture, has been a central theme for philosophers, for political thinkers, for writers, because it was seen as a symbol of democracy, from aristotle, to the quakers who defined themselves as friend, through the founding fathers, through people like walt whitman, thoreau, frederick douglass. throughout western culture, people believed that a virtuous society was one in which friendships flourished.

and in the new united states, which was, unlike classical greece or rome, which americans were self-consciously passenger themselves, americans understood that this new society was a multiracial one. in thinking about how democracy functioned on the ground, people began exploring the concept of interracial friendship to see how democracy was working. and people from, as i said, whitman, emerson, thoreau, frederick douglass, interracial friendship was a key test case for how well democracy was doing. i published a version of that in "time" magazine in 2005, when lincoln was featured on the cover as a founding father. and as i continued to write that chapter, and after publishing in "time" magazine, i quickly realized that chapter threatened to overwhelm the rest of my book on interracial friendship

because of the significance of both abraham lincoln and frederick douglass. so i decided to write a separate book just on those two men. and by pairing them together, i felt that i could accomplish a number of goals. i think a dual biography allows a writer or a scholar to move the lens, so to speak, to change perspectives in order to see two famous men who had been written about a lot in new ways, in interesting ways. abraham lincoln is one of the most written-about figures in american history, probably the most written-about individual in american history. and so one of my objectives was what can i say that's new about abraham lincoln. i felt that by viewing him, by seeing him framed or reflected against frederick douglass, i could offer some new interpretations. primarily i think one of the things that i do with lincoln is i deromanticize him.

i demythologize him. i think lincoln continues to be written about in ways that suggest a mythological figure. what do i mean by that? a lot of writers see lincoln as being essentially perfect, particularly during his presidency. he truly was, in my view, the greatest president. he was a brilliant politician. but i think too many writers see him as someone who never made a mistake, whose every action was a perfect one, so to speak. and that is to create a myth, not a human. to be human is to make mistakes, to be deeply flawed. i felt that by acknowledging, highlighting, even, some of the flaws, i would come away and hopefully readers would come away respecting and appreciating him even more by understanding how far he was able to grow. by pairing him with frederick douglass, i also wanted to represent and to show douglass in a new light, and especially

by showing him in a light that sees him as an equal, as significant as abraham lincoln. most might have previous work has been on antislavery abolitionism. and i've written a lot about fiscal. he appeared in "the black hearts of men." i wrote about him in my second autobiography. in hundreds of talks that i've given about frederick douglass, the first thing i ask to audiences is, how many of you have read anything by frederick douglass. and the answer depends, among whites, just about every african-american has read frederick douglass, but among whites, it's very age-dependent. most whites over the age of 50 barely even know who frederick douglass is much less having read anything by him. most whites under the age of 35 are familiar with frederick douglass, which reflects the degree to which douglass has entered the classrooms, has

entered high school and college curriculums. i think douglass is a crucially significant figure, as important in his own right, as lincoln. and by writing a book that pairs lincoln and douglass, i thought i could reveal that or show that. "giant" is a book that more than anything else is about parallel lives that converge. frederick douglass and abraham lincoln, i argue, are the two preeminent self-made men in american history. douglass began his life as a slave. he had zero formal education. and he was the most famous black man in the world before the age of 40. his rise was truly extraordinary. and he, in his day, was seen as one of the greatest writers and or ate orators, as a greater

orator than lincoln. douglass was able to obtain greater royalties, greater speaking fees than just about any other individual. the fact that he was a black man and was able to do that was truly extraordinary. most of you know that lincoln was born in a log cabin. to say it was a log cabin is to romanticize it. he was what contemporaries referred to as poor white trash who emerged to become the greatest president. and so the two preeminent self-made men in american history, who converged in the sense that douglass met with lincoln three times at the white house. he was the first black man to meet a u.s. president on terms of near-equality to advise him. and they considered each other friends. and the fact that they considered each other friends was significant, given the

importance ascribed to friendship in that time period, in the 19th century. in ways that i never could have envisioned before beginning research and writing the book, they led striking, surprisingly parallel lives. many common occurrences in their rise, in their self-making, which struck me, because one, a white man who grows up in essentially the south, born in kentucky, grows up in indiana and illinois, both states settled primarily by southerners. first and foremost is the fact that more than any other factor,

they were able to rise up because they learned how to use words as weapons. they understood the importance of literacy, the importance of being able to articulate their thoughts in order to convert their audiences to their cause. and both of them learned how to hone their skills of literacy and writing. both of them virtually memorized the same six books, long before they ever met, they both read, reread, virtually memorized, the same six books. any of you have any ideas what those books are? bible is one, probably the most important. and the bible, this was a period in which common education was not that well-known, particularly in the south, particularly in what's now the midwestern states. many young boys did not have formal education. if you only have one book to read, aside from the religious significance, the bible is in my view probably the greatest work

of literature in western culture. both of them quoted liberally, ex tensively from the bible. shakespeare. douglass could quote shakespeare almost as comfortably as lincoln could. you all are great. what's the third? any thoughts? pardon? no, close. pardon? close. very good, close. if shakespeare was the most famous writer in america in the day, which he was, i mean, shakespeare is now primarily read by the well-educated. at the time, shakespeare was read by yeoman farmers in mississippi. all classes read shakespeare. blacks, whites, rich, poor. everyone read shakespeare, which is a phenomenon when we think

about it today. the second most famous writer at the time was lord byron. douglass in particular loved byron but so did lincoln. byron's poetry was seen by americans as emblematic of american ideals of freedom. byron was seen as the great freedom fighter, both in his poetry and his life. he died for the cause of freedom in greece. so that was another figure. another is the columbian orator. oratory was one of the only forms of public entertainment. it was analogous to being a rock star, a movie star, radio personality today. no matter where you started in life, if you could be a great orator, there were few limits to

how far you could rise. and both douglass and lincoln understood that. and caleb bingham wrote the introduction to "the columbian orator." he taught young boys, how do you position your tongue so that you can lose your pronounced accent. both lincoln and douglass had what we would think of today as just horrible accents, accents that betrayed them as being ignorant or as being stupid. and part of being a democratic gentleman was to lose some of your pronounced accent. lincoln retained more of his accent or dialect when he entered the white house than douglass did. caleb bingham taught boys how to lose your accent, how to speak

with the proper cadence so you could reach a large audience. that was a book that both men learned and virtually memorized. lincoln -- there are instances of people remembering lincoln going out in the fields and speaking to the crops in the prairie. douglass read -- douglass was forbidden to read, his msters wouldn't let him read. he shined shoes, purchased a copy of "the columbian orator" and kept it with him, the only thing he took with him when he became free. another book was "aesop's fables," an oral tales of slaves. it's a slave narrative. it's a slave narrative, a

collection of oral tales of slaves from classical antiquity, from ancient greece. and that was a book that was a bestseller, widely read then and it still is read today. so they read the same books. they were familiar with the same examples of books that helped them rise up through using words as weapons. another common parallel was that they both defined a fight as a major turning point in their young lives. and it's ironic, because at the very time in which both men were describing or characterizing themselves as intellectuals or aspiring intellectuals, a fight became an important turning point. for frederick douglass, it was a fight with a famous slave breaker named edward covey.

douglass grew up in maryland, was fortunate to go to baltimore because his master had died and that's where he learned to read and write and acquired his copy of "the columbian orator." with the literacy, he gained a sense of empowerment. when he returned to the eastern shore, his new master, thomas ault, considered him insolent because he looked thomas ault in the eye, talked back to him, stood up to him. thomas ault decided douglass needed to be disciplined. there was a man on the eastern shore named covey who was known slave breaker, someone who broke the will of slaves so that would become good and proper slaves. douglass was hired out to work for covey for one year to do hard labor for covey.

douglass for the first six months was mercilessly whipped at least once a week and he said the welts on his back from the whip were as thick as his thumb, blood streamed down every week and he was whipped again before the old wounds were even healed. after six months of enduring this, douglass decided finally to stand up to covey. douglass was very big for the time, he was over six feet, very strong, very muscular. covey was 5'7". douglass realized he had reached a point that he was not afraid to die. that was the cost of standing up to him. he stood up to covey, they had a two-hour epic fight. douglass was disciplined throughout this fight so he could have killed covey, in my view, or seriously maimed covey. he chose merely to beat covey in

this fight. in the wake of this fight douglass said he defined himself thereafter as a free man in form, even if he would be a slave in fact. and from the moment of that fight, douglass vowed to become free. covey for his part never divulged the fight. douglass could easily have been sent south to mississippi or have been killed or so seriously maimed it would have virtually destroyed him. covey didn't divulge the fight in part because he wanted to preserve his reputation as a slave breaker. so this fight also highlights the degree to which douglass, i argue, was a privileged slave. he was a privileged slave because, one, he was born in maryland, not in mississippi or alabama. if you were born in the deep south, your chances of becoming free were virtually nil. the vast majority of slaves who became free were in the border states. he also suspected douglass was the son of a white man and a slave woman. he suspected that his father was

also his master and there is some evidence for that, given how well he was treated. he was not only not punished because of the fight with covey. douglass, before he actually did run away, attempted to run away, and he was captured. most slaves who attempted to run away and were captured were either sent into the deep south or whipped so hard that they were permanently maimed. and douglass, in the wake of his attempt to run away, was promised his freedom at the age of 21. so he was a privileged slave. lincoln, for his part, grew up -- was also lucky. lincoln was -- most people know how big lincoln was. he was 6'4". again, so he was taller than most men by almost a foot. lincoln grew up, like douglass, in this vicious backwoods community.

i think many scholars have romanticized the prairie background of lincoln. it was a vicious backwoods community in which the defining aspect of manhood was the capacity to fight hard and to drink a lot. it's one of the reasons why both douglass and lincoln abstained from alcohol their entire lives, because they understood the destruction that alcohol caused in their communities. lincoln had just moved to new salem, illinois at the age of 21. he described his first 21 years as a slave, because technically he had it turn over all of his money to his father. he's finally free from his father who he didn't like because his father was not interested in education, not really interested in literacy. he was a laborer, carpenter and farmer. lincoln arrives in new salem. and one of the local leaders there was a man named jack armstrong. jack armstrong was essentially a

thug and he and his buddies loved to lure strangers into poker games, steal their money, and beat them up. jack armstrong liked to get into -- he liked to roast live pig and hear the sounds of it squealing before it died. one of the most common forms of fighting in the backwoods of illinois was what people called a rough and tumble, no holds barred rough and tumble. it was a kind of fight in which it was not uncommon for a man to lose a nose, part of an ear, a finger, to have testicles ripped out. the great prize in this fight was to liberate an opponent's eyeball and keep it as a prize. this was a brutal environment. armstrong wanted to fight douglass, the best that we know, in a rough and tumble -- lincoln. lincoln said no, i don't want to do that, i'll wrestle you, i will wrestle you, i'll have a regulated wrestling match which

was a less brutal form of fight, when each man had to keep an arm on the other. people came from all around, from miles around, to bet on it, which was common in fighting. it's unclear exactly what happened in the fight. but what we do know is that they called it a draw. armstrong fouled lincoln, the fight ended, they called it a draw, no one lost money and in the wake of that fight lincoln quickly became a leader in new salem and also a friend of jack armstrong within roughly six months. lincoln was already running for the state legislature. he became the captain of his company in the black hawk war and from that point, rose up quickly. both men married up. and i argue their wives were central to their self-making. douglass married a free black woman, which was very unusual. when he returned to baltimore,

it was very unusual for slaves and free blacks to interact in that way. and it was anna murray who was primarily responsible, her money was primarily responsible for allowing douglass to dress as a free sailor, to purchase a train ticket, and to take a train north to new york city where he became free in 1838. without her help his chances of becoming free would have been i think profoundly limited. most people or many people see mary todd as this madwoman or crazy woman. mary todd was at least as sophisticated about politics as lincoln was. mary todd grew up in kentucky, near the home of henry clay, who was the hero of a statesman for lincoln. she was a friend of clay. she was an aristocrat.

lincoln, in marrying mary todd, made a very wise political decision. mary todd advised lincoln in every step of his rise through politics. and so without their wives, i think the potential for them rising up would have been very slim indeed. the first time that douglass ever refers to lincoln is in 1847. douglass is moved to rochester, new york, now a newspaperman, already the most famous black man in the country, is virtually a household name. he becomes famous overnight because of his autobiography which is a bestseller, in this sense similar to obama. and he writes about lincoln in the context of lincoln's term in congress. and douglass refers to lincoln as part of a rogue's gallery of

congressmen who oppose a bill to abolish slavery in washington, d.c. why does lincoln oppose this bill to abolish slavery in washington, d.c. as a congressman? because it deviates from lincoln's vision or strategy for ending slavery. lincoln hated slavery. lincoln said on numerous occasions that he hated slavery as much as any abolitionist and there's no reason to doubt that. but his strategy for ending slavery was threefold. one, very gradual. very congenial, so as not to uproot society. in fact in his debates with stephen douglass in 1858, lincoln said when do i think slavery will end, when will the ultimate extinction of slavery occur, he said not less than 100 years. that would have placed the end of slavery at the very earliest, barring the civil war, in 1958.

it was a very gradual end to slavery. lincoln also advocated for compensation to masters for loss of their property. lincoln also called for or urged subsidies for colonization, for colonizing free blacks outside of the united states. so in essence his vision of america was a white one. and douglass was outraged at lincoln's opposition to this bill to end slavery. and probably before they became friends, they were quite frankly enemies. and this is highlighted in lincoln's first inaugural in 1861. the closest frederick douglass ever came to losing his faith in

america, repudiaing the possibility of america ever living up to its ideals in the declaration was in the immediate wake of the first inaugural. why? because in the first inaugural, lincoln does two things, says two things in particular that outrage frederick douglass. one is, now, remember, when lincoln gives his first inaugural, the seven states had already seceded. the confederacy had already been formed. and lincoln is appealing in his inaugural primarily to southern states, the upper south that lincoln hopes to prevent from seceding. and in that inaugural address, lincoln first vows to vigorously defend the fugitive slave law which many northerners viewed as unconstitutional because it virtually legitimized the kidnapping of free blacks. it completely ignored the due process of law. second and more onerously in that first inaugural, lincoln

affirmed or embraced a new constitutional amendment that congress had just passed. a few days before lincoln gave his first inaugural, congress had passed the first 13th amendment. most people remember the 15th amendment is the amendment that abolishes slavery. the first 13th amendment which congress had passed in an attempt to conciliate with southerners was an unamendable amendment that guaranteed slavery in the slave states forever. now, lincoln had run on a platform of prohibiting the spread of slavery with the goal for its ultimate extinction. that was lincoln's basic platform. now, accepting this amendment that guaranteed slavery in the slave states, abraham lincoln was essentially cutting against the basic platform. he says, i'm out of here. he planned a trip to haiti with

the goal of emigrating there and he refers to lincoln as a slave hound and as a representative american racist. now, as a way to understand their differences at this point, the best way to summarize lincoln as a politician is to say that he, as president, sought first and foremost the preservation of the union. it was based on the oath of office that he took. he hoped to defeat the confederacy and preserve the union. the question of slavery was always secondary to that chief objective. and frederick douglass, his fundamental identity was one of calling for an immediate end to slavery and racial equality under the law. throughout his life, those were the two things that frederick douglass championed. and during the inaugural, in the wake of southern states seceding, douglass felt that the

quickest way to reunite the nation was to end slavery. douglass chose not to go to haiti because the civil war broke out with the firing on ft. sumter. douglass recognizing that war offered a way to end slavery. douglass was very familiar with john quincy adams' statement as far back as 1836, who quincy adams had stood up in congress and said to sogt southerners, the president has the power to end slavery constitutionally. for frederick douglass, slavery itself represented a state of war. he believed because slavery represented a state of war, he called for the immediate end of slavery even before the actual war broke out because in his

mind, for constitutional reasons. and douglass said immediately after ft. sumter, started calling on the president, sending his newspaper to the white house, saying end slavery, that will be the quickest way to end the war because the slaves constitute the stomach of the rebellion. unless you emancipate the slaves, 4 million blacks, roughly one-third of the southern states, are aiding and abetting the confederacy. they're feeding the confederates, they're building roads for them, they're building fortifications, they're building trenches for them. if you emancipate them, you'll have in theory 4 million people that will be on the union side. lincoln ultimately came to recognize the military validity of emancipating slaves as a war measure, which is precisely how the emancipation proclamation was phrased. he emancipated slaves as part of

a war measure. and so in their convergence, it resulted in the fact that douglass and lincoln had two different objectives that converged and their friendship more than anything else was utilitarian. when they first met in 1863, in the wake of the emancipation proclamation, douglass recognized that he needed lincoln on his side to help him achieve his objective of universal emancipation and equality under the law. and lincoln recognized that he needed frederick douglass on his side, douglass was essentially the ambassador of african-americans, in order to achieve his goal of preserving the union. the details of their first meeting were that in august of

1863, douglass had been -- he had been recruiting black soldiers, the emancipation proclamation effectively called for the arming of black troops. and douglass had devoted from january of 1863 until early august, full-time to recruiting blacks. he virtually single-handedly recruited the famous massachusetts 54th black regiment. two of his sons were his first two recruits. douglass got fed up with recruiting because of the administration's policy, black soldiers were being paid half of what white soldiers were and were not being promoted for valiant duty. and so he decided to take his case to washington, d.c. he takes a train to d.c. he arrives in the city on august 10th of '63, early in the morning, goes right to the white house. there's already a long line of

people waiting to see the president. lincoln was known as having an open door policy, admitting just about all callers. douglass stood in line, he thought he was going to have to wait all day, maybe more. he sent up his card. within two minutes he's called up by lincoln. and as he passes these whites in line to go up to see lincoln, he hears one of them say, i see how it is, they let the through. lincoln knows douglass, he says, hello, mr. douglass, it's good to see you, i know about you, i've read you, what can i do for you? douglass states his case to lincoln. lincoln vows he will make every effort to pay black soldiers the same as white soldiers. he acknowledges that he's been very tardy, both in emancipation and in giving equal rights to blacks.

and he also vows to promote black soldiers. at this first meeting, douglass and lincoln acknowledge that politically they're very dinner. douglass, after all, is a radical activist. lincoln as a politician. douglass wants not only the immediate end to slavery but immediate racial equality. lincoln's chief goal is preserving the union. but at this first meeting, they defined themselves afterwards as friends. why? in part because they both have enormous respect for each other as self-made men. one of douglass's most famous speeches was on self-made men. they recognized the accent, the dialect of each other. in fact in my book i try to convey or capture what each man sounded like at various stages of his career. and in fact, after that first meeting, president lincoln told the next person that he saw in the white house that he had just

met with frederick douglass and he said, i consider mr. douglass one of the most meritorious men in these united states. lincoln -- or douglass said after meeting lincoln that he considered lincoln the king of self-made men. so they both had great respect for each other as self-made men, even though they disagreed politically. the second meeting occurred a year later, at a time in which the war was going very poorly for the north. lincoln thought he was going to lose reelection. it was august of 1864. northerners were tired of fighting. and lincoln felt sure he was going to lose to the democratic nominee george mcclellan. mcclellan ran on a platform of negotiated settlement with the confederacy, immediate peace, which would have left slavery intact. and lincoln calls douglass to the white house for an urgent meeting. douglass comes to washington,

meets with lincoln in the white house, and lincoln tells douglass, i would like you to plan and embark upon a john brown scheme in which you'll invade the south with an army of black and whites, bring as many blacks as possible to union lines, worst case scenario is that i'll lose the election to mcclellan, but thousands more blacks will be in union lines and freed before slavery remains permanent in the confederacy. best case scenario, these thousands more blacks that come to union lines will aid the union effort, lead to a major victory, turn the tide of war, convince northerners that the war will soon be over, and we can finish off this fight. frederick douglass was amazed at this request because douglass had been a close friend of john

brown. john brown, if you remember, was the most radical white abolitionist of the day. john brown, with an army of blacks and whites, in 1859, went south, raided, took over the federal arsenal at harpers ferry, virginia with an eye toward distributing the arms there to slaves and inciting a massive slave insurrection. although douglass had opposed john brown from going to harpers ferry, it was only because he thought brown was going to lose his life, which he did. brown was captured, he was tried for treason, and executed for treason. and that harpers ferry affair was one of the last sparks that led to the civil war. frederick douglass, however, considered john brown one of the greatest men in these united states. that's a quote from douglass. john brown wrote his provisional

constitution which would govern those areas that brown hoped to liberate from slavery in douglass' home. brown could not write a grammatically correct sentence. douglass said it was the best document he ever wrote, which suggests douglass edited it for him. now, lincoln and all republicans distanced themselves dramatically from john brown when it occurred. lincoln said i agree with brown in principle, meaning i agree that slavery is wrong, but john brown committed treason against the united states government and he justly deserved to be hung. now, four years later, president lincoln is calling for douglass to embark upon a john brown scheme, in essence john brown has been mainstreamed. there was also a period in which

most northern soldiers sung the john brown song as they went to fight, as an inspiration in fighting the confederacy. douglass planned this john brown scheme. a few weeks later, though, general sherman was victorious in atlanta, began his march to the sea. it transformed northern opinion and essentially it clinched reelection so essentially that scheme never went into practice. the third and final meeting was during lincoln's inaugural address. douglass was invited to the address and the reception. he had essentially a front row seat. he sat right in front of lincoln. lincoln saw douglass when he gave his address. douglass went to the reception at the white house in the wake of the inaugural address. this was in march of 1865. the war was virtually over. there were almost 200,000 blacks, troops marching throughout the south.

douglass was initially barred from entering the white house when he gets there because a policeman says you're not allowed to enter, blacks aren't allowed to enter. douglass says there submarine must be some mistake. he sends his card in and lincoln says let him in. there is no man in this country whose opinion i value more than yours, lincoln tells douglass, what did you think of my address? douglass responds, mr. president, that was a sacred effort. within a month, lincoln has been assassinated. there is very good evidence that if lincoln had lived, douglass and he would have remained very close friends despite their political differences. so what are the lessons of their friendship? one is that political differences do not necessarily

correlate into intersocial behavior. douglass and lincoln genuinely liked each other. they felt genuine affection for each other even though they never agreed politically. even in '64 and '65, douglass's plan for reconstruction -- douglass's hope for reconstruction was much more radical than lincoln. he advocated immediate suffrage for all blacks, black men and women, and immediate racial equality under the law. lincoln, representative of his entire political career, wanted reconstruction to occur much more gradually. but they genuinely felt comfortable in part because they shared a common background, they shared common interests, and also they understood that they were facing a common enemy that threatened their identity and their livelihood. another crucial reason, i think, for their convergence relates to

the very definitions of self-made men. both douglass and lincoln understood that self-making reflected the idea of oneself or the self in a state of continual evolution and flux, meaning that who lincoln and douglass were in 1840 were totally different than who they were in 1845, 1850, 1860. both men never changed as dramatically as they did during the civil war. this contradicts the very notion of racism, because racism depends on a self that is permanently fixed. it depends on one self who is permanently superior and white to another self who is permanently inferior and nonwhite. and by embracing this idea of self-making or the self in a

state of continual flux or evolution, it contradicts this notion of racism, which is another important reason why they were able to come together. what are the legacies of these two men? i mentioned that obama has been deeply influenced by both douglass and lincoln. obama has on frequent occasions acknowledged his debt to lincoln. he hasn't so much with frederick douglass, i think for two reasons. one is, obama very much defines himself as embracing a post-racial america. and frederick douglass has come down to us, most people today, as a race man. and so for that reason, he wants to -- he has not acknowledged his debt. to see douglass solely as a race man is erroneous. douglass in his own day was very similar to obama. douglass in his own day sought to move beyond the division of

race and reach a common understanding between blacks and whites. douglass' friendship with lincoln was one of numerous friendships with whites that douglass had. douglass was a close friend of john brown. he was a close friend of garrett smith. he became a close friend, a very close friend of charles sumner, particularly at the end of the war and reconstruction. but because douglass has come down to us as a race man, obama has distanced himself. i think second, particularly during the campaign and probably more significantly, obama understands that if he acknowledges his debt to frederick douglass and said he's been deeply influenced by douglass, opponents will quickly seize on that fact, recognize that douglass was a radical and a friend of john brown and say, there you go again, associating with another terrorist. what has obama learned from frederick douglass? as he says in his book "the audacity of hope," he says there

are periods, there are instances in which power will concede nothing without a fight. and that's what i learned from frederick douglass. and both obama and frederick douglass understood that words were the most potent weapons for fighting this opponent. that's one thing that he learned from douglass. another thing he learned from douglass, and i'm now paraphrasing douglass, true art will break down racial barriers. douglass was, as i emphasize, one of the greatest writers and orators in his day, much as obama is. and frederick douglass would get up to speak before an audience of whites, and most of the whites in that audience, before seeing and hearing frederick douglass, would assume that blacks were subhuman. most whites in douglass' day believed that blacks were

incapable of self-government. and they would listen to douglass's very rich, deep baritone voice. they would hear his he will eloquence. frederick douglass was nothing if not handsome, even his enemies acknowledged that. he was majestic in his wrath, as one convert said of him. they would hear him and they would see him perform and they would essentially shed their racism and be converted to the cause of abolitionism. there are numerous examples of that happening. one instance is douglass goes to buffalo, new york to speak on abolitionism. buffalo is a city, when he arrived, in which virtually no one was an abolitionist, all people wanted to do was make money. he's in buffalo for ten days, and in a period of ten days, by the tenth day, over half of the city comes to hear him on the green. no auditorium can even hold the

audiences. and he's converted the multitude. true art breaks down racial barriers. there's numerous examples of obama, before whites, obama saying i can never imagine myself voting for a black man. they hear obama, they see his majesty, his eloquence, they see -- i think most people acknowledge obama to be immensely handsome. they see his performance, they too shed their racism and vote for him. i think the best way to understand obama's political campaign is as an artistic performance. a very, very successful artistic performance, which is a crucially important thing that he's learned from frederick douglass. in many respects, frederick douglass is the most direct descendant of barack obama. both men are children of one white, one black parent. both men became famous

overnight, world famous almost overnight, on the strength of their autobiography. both men are among the great writers and orators of their day. ironically, though, i think obama shares more in common with lincoln. why? well, first and foremost, like lincoln, obama defines himself as a politician. as a politician, he's constrained by what he can do. for him to accomplish anything, he needs to get elected. so no matter what he might think privately, he cannot publicly espouse certain things that will destroy his potential for getting elected. he has acknowledged his debt to lincoln about the significance, the importance of being pragmatic, about the willingness to sacrifice one's moral certainty in the greater goal of reaching for common

understanding over racial -- over various social divisions. and both lincoln and obama have been very effective at their -- at employing their pragmatic vision. i think another similarity or something that obama has learned from lincoln that not as many people have emphasized is that lincoln had a brilliant sense of public opinion. and he understood that the relationship between a political leader and the public was really one of a dialectic. a political leader should not simply internalize public opinion and echo it back. a political leader should also not try to put a strangle hold on the public and force them to the direction that he wants to go. but rather, understand the large, diverse views of the public and through eloquence, through language, inspire them to move towards this collective or common goal. douglass and lincoln, like obama

today, i think function more than anything else as inspiration. douglass and lincoln inspire us as obama has continually said that he hopes to do, inspire us to bind up national wounds, to complete the unfinished work of the nation, and by fulfilling the ideals of freedom and equality of opportunity for all americans. thank you. [ applause ] any questions, comments, criticisms? yes. >> how long did [ inaudible ]? >> douglass lived until 1895. so he lived another 40 years. he gave numerous talks on lincoln. he considered lincoln the

greatest american statesman. but he was also very honest. i think the most accurate assessment of lincoln to this day is when douglass gave the speech at the freedmens' monument. it was a speech, the congress was all there, the supreme court was there, president grant was there. and the statue, in case you haven't seen it, is a statue of lincoln with the emancipation proclamation in one hand and his other hand outstretched over a kneeling slave, the kneeling slave had been an icon in the abolitionist movement. douglass didn't like the statue. but he said in his speech, he begins his speech to all these dignitaries by saying, mr.

lincoln, we, blacks, are president lincoln's or mr. lincoln's stepchildren, whites are his children, which no doubt shocked his audience, because lincoln's chief goal was preserving the union. and then douglass did what he often did in speeches. it's called -- he learned it from "the columbian orator." it's a reversal. you start at one place and you end in another. because lincoln recognized that in order to preserve the union he needed blacks at his side, although we are his stepchildren, through his transformation, we became accepted as part of a national family. it's a stunning, moving, brilliant speech. and douglass gave various versions of that for the rest of his life. douglass was immensely inspired by his friendship with lincoln. he was proud of it.

he felt like he grew as an individual because of it. and there is evidence lincoln did not say as much about his friendship with douglass, but there's evidence that lincoln -- good evidence that lincoln was profoundly moved and transformed through his friendship with douglass, that douglass helped push him to directions that douglass wanted to go. yes. >> i appreciated your mentioning the readings they shared and how telling they were. you mentioned six, and my recollection is you mentioned "the columbian orator," byron, "aesop's fables," the bible, shakespeare. what was the sixth? >> oh, robert burns' poetry, i'm sorry. >> thank you. >> lincoln loved burns, because

burns is a farmer who embraces his rich dialect. and lincoln had memorized most of robert burns. >> lincoln was a poet himself. >> he was a poet himself. in the book i argue that lincoln and douglass are two of the great writers in american history. >> thank you. >> yes. [ inaudible ]. >> did lincoln and obama have a more optimistic view of human nature than frederick douglass? i would say not really. it's a great question. the reason i would say not really is it relates to their religious differences. one of the justifications for frederick douglass in calling

for an immediate end to slavery and racial equality is that douglass defined himself as a prophet. douglass believed that he knew that god believed slavery was horrible and wrong. douglass knew that he believed that god knew that slavery was wrong and wanted it ended immediately. and douglass believed that one could dismantle sin, douglass understood that throughout human history one of the justifications for slavery is that all humans are slaves in one form or another because of genesis, because of adam and eve's original sin. all humans are slaves to their sin, they're slaves to god, they're slaves in life. part of being human is that you can't overcome sin and all sin was a form of bondage. douglass essentially was, as an abolitionist, inverted that relationship between sin and slavery and said slavery is a

horrible sin, and humans have the capacity to dismantle sin and become free, both achieving inner freedom as well as outer freedom. lincoln was the best way to summarize his religious views was that he had a calvin sensibility. lincoln continually said that it was hubris to try to know what god wanted, to believe to know what god wanted. the most one could do was to look for signs of what one thought god wanted. and because of that calvin sensibility, lincoln acknowledged the innate depravity of humans. he acknowledged their capacity for evil, which is one of the reasons for his pragmatism. douglass was someone who had this vision of the perfect society and believed that it could be realized.

racial equality and universal freedom. and that reflected his deep enduring faith in humanity endowed with god. in the book i essentially say that frederick douglass embraced the idea of sacred self-sovereignty. in other words, he believed that the kingdom of god was within you and theoretically within all individuals. lincoln was much more skeptical of the potential for what i'll call perfectonism. yes? i'm sorry. >> obama's approach had something -- the way he raised funds shifted politics some. >> yes. >> the internet allowed him to draw on money at decisive moments that -- political action committees. >> correct. >> was there anything equivalent for lincoln?

the vested interests at that time, the cotton producers, the shippers, where did they come out? >> that's a great question. not any direct parallels. i mean, the similarities are that lincoln, like obama in the 1860 political election, was a real dark horse. lincoln didn't even enter the national political scene until beginning with his debates with steven douglass. the real similarity is both men's capacity for being such eloquent and elegant public speakers. and even critics acknowledge that of lincoln in his day, and that's true of obama. but in terms of the kind of institutional grassroots campaign that obama has so successfully employed, there was some of that equivalent in

illinois, but it's hard because times have changed so dramatically, it's hard to draw direct parallels over there. so, there was -- you had a question? >> yeah. i was fascinated by the, actually two things, actually several things. [ laughter ] >> good. >> the one piece with douglass comes to washington and gets to meet with lincoln. you actually have a replica of the past -- >> yes. >> and lincoln writes on it, i concur. i assume these are the douglass papers that are in the library of congress. >> they are. >> but whatever happened with that, with the commission that -- had promised him? i think that would have been interesting to see what he did when he was a part of the military. and then my other question relates to john brown. how did douglass get away with that association that, you know, they didn't hunt him down as he

came back to the united states, you know, being involved with brown. >> two great questions. thank you. the first one i didn't have time to go into. in that first meeting with lincoln, he actually, douglass meets -- he goes to the white house with samuel pomeroy. they first go to see edwin stanton. and stanton was so taken with douglass' debating skills and knew of douglass that he promises douglass a commission as an officer, as a black officer, which would allow douglass to go south and recruit blacks from the south into the union army. far more blacks in the south which meant that his ability to recruit would increase dramatically. and he then went -- the post

master general signed the commission essentially acknowledging that douglass is a union man, giving him the pass to go anywhere he wants. and lincoln -- douglass tells lincoln that he's just received a commission to be a union officer. douglass goes home, and he ends his newspaper because he's already been promised this commission to be a black officer in the union army, and he's immensely proud of this. well, the commission falls through, it never happens. and it's probably because edwin stanton understood the symbolism behind making -- commissioning douglass as a union officer and outraging and alienating conservative northerners that reflected the conservatism of the comparative conservatism. douglass never really blames lincoln, but lincoln knew of this failure of the commission because lincoln had to sign all

the commissions. had douglass -- and douglass thought briefly of going south anyway without the officer bars on his shoulders, the gold bars. and he decided not to go because he felt that it would be much more dangerous and that he would be less effective at recruiting. so he continued to recruit in the north. but it was frustrating. when douglass ended his newspaper, it was the longest-running black newspaper in the 19th century. and he had been very proud to, at the prospect of becoming a black officer. why was douglass not captured during and after john brown's -- the short answer is he almost was. when the news hit that john brown had raided, john brown had been captured, there was a letter from frederick douglass to john brown in his knapsack.

and president buchanan essentially granted all federal officers the license to capture frederick douglass wherever he was and send him to virginia for trial and almost certain death. and technically douglass was an accomplice with john brown because of his close friendship with him. douglass immediately -- he got news of it and immediately fled to canada. and, in fact, it was from canada that he wrote a newspaper, he wrote a newspaper article saying that, acknowledging his friendship with brown saying that he does not oppose conspiring against the u.s. government as long as it will work because the true ideals of the government are for freedom. he then goes to england for six months. and when he returns essentially congress has a senate investigation over john brown's raid. and they understand how

politically combustible the raid is. and in order to try to prevent more sectional tensions they essentially don't prosecute anyone. and when douglass returns, he is able to -- no one accuses him of being a conspirator. and then once the civil war breaks out, increasingly americans come to agree with frederick douglass who said in the wake of brown's death he said john brown started the war when the war breaks out -- or douglass says john brown started the war that hopefully will end slavery. and increasingly, northerners came to agree with that, which is why when i say by 1864, john brown, who had been seen as this radical fanatic, by '64 he's mainstream. majority of northern soldiers are singing the john brown song as they go off to battle. yes? >> in your estimation of the two men personally, at the end of

the day, to what degree, in your opinion, did the politician chaisson, the activist notion of the ideal, and to what degree did the activist elevate the politician's notion of the possible? >> great question. i wouldn't say chaisson. i would say -- i think that the relationship, again, is something of a dialectic. i think that the idealist and the politician should work together, acknowledging that they'll never entirely converge, but the idealist can inspire the politician, and the politician can highlight to the idealist the costs of trying to realize one's vision or the practical problems of doing so. and douglass was -- i would characterize douglass as a

prudent revolutionary during this time. it's one of the reasons he didn't go to harper's ferry with john brown. john brown spent two days trying to convince douglass to go with him. douglass said, no, i don't want to go, i'm going to die, i think you're going to die. douglass was very, very prudent and disciplined. and so while he was an idealist, he wasn't like john brown, i would argue, a reckless idealist. i think in that sense douglass also shares a lot with obama, immensely disciplined as individuals. >> you describe douglass and lincoln as friends. i'm wondering is there a mid-19th century ideal of friendship that you're drawing on here or just generally -- >> no, that's a great question. the characteristic of friendship, initially in western culture through most of western

culture, was that it was likeness in a double sense. you liked the friend and you were like the friend. now, there's a flaw in that basic definition for most of western culture, which is that the friend had to be just like you. in fact, for aristotle, for plato, even for quakers for the most part, a rich and poor could not be friends. a man and a woman could not be friends because they were essentially different. and certainly an ethnic other, ethnic racial other and someone else could not be friends. that started to change in the united states soon after the founding of the nation because of this awareness of this friendship as a symbol of democracy, we need to think about the notion of interracial friendship. but the fact that douglass and lincoln, setting aside their

racial differences, were like each other very much in their self-making, their background, and did come to like each other i think is significant. a second characteristic of friendship is equality or near equality, which douglass and lincoln shared. the third is in they're actually at this time in the united states two different understandings of friendship. one is spiritual friendship. the second is utilitarian friendship. utilitarian friendship is the friendship that douglass and lincoln achieved. and that utilitarianism depends, in part, upon i gain something from you, you gain something from me, which i spelled out. lincoln realized that douglass could help him preserve the union, lincoln could help douglass achieve his goals of ending slavery. the difference between spiritual friendship and utilitarian friendship, spiritual is which

two individuals share a common spiritual world view and sensibility. aristotle and plato said, essentially, that a spiritual friend was as though two bodies unite into one soul. and the term that we would use today would be soul mates. and americans were very self-conscious about their use of friendship. and douglass' correspondence in his letters after meeting someone, the first series of letters with someone, he'll say "respectfully yours" or "sincerely yours." when he first uses the term "your friend," that's a significant moment. the whole tone of the letter has changed. in the 20th century friendship has become much more -- has been much more used in the service of commodities. so it doesn't have the significant spiritual or political or otherwise. in the 20th century the most

common reference to friendship is through dale carnegie's "how to win friends and influence people." [ laughter ] friendship is used in the service of selling. there is a breakfast cereal today in the united states called good friends, which features an interracial couple on the cover. so, unfortunately, i think, friendship has lost some of its political, spiritual, cultural significance. yes? [ inaudible question ] >> i was intrigued by something you said earlier. you mentioned there was very little documentation. i haven't read the book -- very little documentation to suggest lincoln's -- because apparently there are letters. i'm just wondering how much of this maybe helps project -- that

may not have been supported. and the other question i have is what impact does lincoln's perception of race, was shaped by his administration. because i know that there were a number of his cabinet members that were more anti-slavery. >> right. >> another great question. there is not very much material from lincoln describing his relationship with frederick douglass. i rely heavily, though, on douglass himself. i've read all of frederick douglass' letters, his three autobiographies. and douglass as an ex-slave and as an african-american understood the significance and importance of truthtelling. and douglass had an amazing

memory as well. he's even remembering incidences of ten, 20 years earlier. he sometimes gets a few details wrong, but the basic facts are right. and so the characterization of lincoln's attitude toward douglass comes primarily from douglass. douglass had no reason to falsify or romanticize lincoln's perception of him really. so douglass is the main source for my characterization of lincoln. and i want to emphasize that douglass, you know, as i said, it wasn't until their first meeting that douglass really started to see lincoln in ways that he felt he could really even interact with them. had douglass wanted to meet with lincoln in the white house before the emancipation proclamation? there's no way that lincoln would've admitted him because it wasn't in lincoln's interest.

so douglass recognized that lincoln was politically very different, still conservative, but douglass had the capacity to feel comfortable around lincoln. and even though they disagreed so profoundly. the point you make about lincoln's other members in the administration, both in the cabinet and in congress is also an excellent one because i characterize lincoln as a conservative republican. the two frontrunners for the republican party or for the presidency in 1860 chase and seward were much more progressive. both of them, for example, believed slavery was unconstitutional. lincoln did not, he thought it was constitutional. i argue it was john brown's raid with douglass' endorsement or friendship with brown that

helped more than anything that helped lincoln get elected for a variety of reasons. but to see lincoln as a conservative republican who was pushed by circumstance to a place where he otherwise would not have gone is important. i mean, lincoln himself said events controlled me, i didn't control them. and i think that's important to understand. who lincoln fundamentally was, was not a radical. and to champion universal emancipation and rarely equality under the law was a radical stance. those were the two basic templates of northern abolitionists. immediate end to slavery and racial inequality. lincoln, it's questionable how far lincoln ever went in terms of racial equality, given his vision of reconstruction. but he was pushed by events. and i think part of his greatness reflects that lincoln understood that. he understood that he was pushed

in a certain position, that there was already a social transformation occurring in america. in 1860 very, very few northerners believed in racial equality or equality under the law in universal emancipation. by 1865, the vast majority of northerners embraced universal freedom and increasing numbers, large numbers, understood the significance of giving black men the vote. and so lincoln, in a sense, reflects the social transformation which is a result of the civil war. thank you very much. [ applause ] weeknights, we're featuring american history tv programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on c-span3. tonight beginning at 8:00 eastern, a look at the national

world war i memorial in washington, d.c., which opened to the public on april 16th. c-span toured the site located near the white house with edwin fountain, former u.s. world war i centennial commission vice-chair. he told the story of the memorial's development and talked about the philosophy behind the design that honors the 4.7 million american who's served during the war. watch american history tv tonight and every weekend on c-span3. c-spanshop.org is c-span's online store. there's a collection of c-span products. browse to see what's new. your purchase will support our nonprofit operations, and you still have time to order the congressional directory with contact information for members of congress and the biden administration. go to c-spanshop.org. ♪♪ ♪♪

next on the presidency, historians harold holzer and edna greene medford and david blight talked about the views of abraham lincoln and frederick douglass on emancipating those held in slavery. they tracked their revolution on the issue from early in their careers through the civil war. the new york historical society is the host of this event. so, good morning, everyone, and happy new year to everyone. welcome to the new york

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