speech. upheld petition of schenk with leaflets urging young men to resist the draft in world war i. >> up next on american history tv, john stauffer talks about

his book "giants: the parallel lives of douglass and abraham lincoln." compares man to recently inaugurated barack obama, the national archives hosted and provided the video. >> today in the midst of a very historic week with the inauguration of our new president we have a fitting and timely book lecture by john stauffer. over this week as i viewed different news program, they continuously repeated refrain by many of the commentators was that president obama stands on the shoulders of some key historical figures. who paved the way for him. two of the most important of these figures are the subjects of dr. stauffer's lecture and book "giants: the parallel lives of frederick douglass and abraham lincoln."

john stauffer received ph.d. from yale university in 1999 and began teaching at harvard the same year. writes and lectures on the civil war era, antislavery movements. author of seven books and more than 45 articles including "the black hearts of men: radical abolitionists and transformation of race." 14 different awards. including the frederick douglass award. lincoln prize runner-up. essays in "time" magazine, "new york post," journal of contemporary photography and "harvard review." currently dr. stauffer is completing a book with sally jenkins on the radical

interracialism and unionism in civil war era mississippi. "free state of jones" will be a motion picture by gary ross. after the lecture will be a book signing at archive shop. without further ado, let us welcome dr. john stauffer. >> thank you very much for that wonderful introduction and thank you for coming. can everyone hear me in the back? i'd like to speak for about 45 minutes, then open it up for questions and answers and criticism and comments. and i want to speak for a few minutes just about how this book came into being, background of "giants" and summarize some of the key themes in the book to

whet your appetite to read it in you haven't. then spend last five or ten minutes discussing the legacy of both lincoln and douglass on particularly barack obama. obama has been deeply influenced by both men. i've written about the influences in the "new york times" and huffington post and i want to share my thoughts. i started writing "giants" around the time that obama launched his campaign. at a time when very few americans believed he could actually get elected. book was published on election day. and having steeped myself in both frederick douglass and abraham lincoln during 21 months of obama's campaign, i felt like i have very good understanding of what i refer to as obama phenomenon. i felt after hearing obama launch his campaign in springfield that he had a very

good chance of winning because of having steeped myself in douglass and lincoln. i want to share that with you at the end. first the background. this book really began as a chapter in a larger project i'm working on on interracial friendships in american society. my previous work has focused on some aspect of interracial friendship. why do i think they're important? i think friendship throughout history, western culture, has been a central theme for philosophers, political thinkers and writers because friendship was seen as symbol of democracy from plato and aristotle through the quakers who self-consciously defined themselves as friends, through the founding fathers and walt whitman, emerson, thoreau, frederick douglass.

friendship was seen as a test case how well democracy was working. throughout western culture people believed a virtuous society was one in which friendships flourished. and in the new united states which was unlike classical greece and rome in which americans were self-consciously patterning themselves, americans understood this new society was a multiracial one. so in thinking about how democracy functioned on the ground, people began exploring the concept of interracial friendship to see how democracy was working. and people from as i said whitman, emerson, thoreau, frederick douglass, interracial friendship was a key test case how well democracy was doing. i published a version of that when lincoln was on the cover as

founding father. when i continued to write that chapter and published in "time" magazine, i realized it threatened to overwhelm the rest of the book because of the significance of abraham lincoln and frederick douglass, so i decided to write a separate book just on those two men. by pairing them together i felt that i could accomplish a number of goals. i think a dual biography allows a writer or scholar to move the lens, so to speak, change perspectives in order to see two famous men who have been written about a lot in new, interesting ways. abraham lincoln is one of the most written about figures in american history, probably the most written about individual. one of my objectives was what can i say that's new about abraham lincoln. and by seeing him framed or

reflected against frederick douglass i could offer new interpretations. primarily one of the things i do with lincoln is deromanticize and mythologize him. lincoln continues to be written about in ways that suggest a mythological figure. lot of writers see lincoln as perfect. particularly in his presidency. in my view the greatest president and brilliant politician, but too many writers see him as someone who never made a mistake, whose every action was a perfect one so to speak and that's to create a myth, not a human. to be human is to make mistakes, be deeply flawed. and i felt that by acknowledging, highlighting even some of the flaws i would come away and hopefully readers would come away respecting him even

more, understanding how fare was able to grow. pairing him with frederick douglass i also wanted to represent and show douglass in a new light, especially by showing him in a light that sees him as an equal, as significant as abraham lincoln. most of my previous work has been on antislavery abolitionism and i've written a lot about frederick douglass, he appeared in "the black hearts of men," i edited his second autobiography, and in hundreds of talks given on frederick douglass, first thing i ask audiences is how many of you here have read anything by frederick douglass. and the answer depends among whites, just about every african-american has read frederick douglass but whites it's age dependent. over the age of 50 barely know who frederick douglass was, much less read anything.

under the age of 35 are familiar with frederick douglass which reflects the degree to which douglass has entered the classrooms, entered high school and college curriculums. and i think douglass is crucially significant figure, as important in his own right as lincoln. and by writing a book that pairs lincoln and douglass, i felt that i would be able to reveal or show that. "giants" is a book that more than anything else is about parallel lives that converge. frederick douglass and abraham lincoln i argue are two preeminent self-made men in american history. douglass began his life as slave and had zero education, most famous black man in the world by age of 40, his rise was truly extraordinary. in his day he was seen as one of the greatest writers and

orators. even into the 1860s, douglass was seen as better orator than lincoln. he was great orator but lincoln paled with respect to douglass who could obtain greater royalties and speaking fees than just about any individual, and fact he was black man and able to do that is truly extraordinary. lincoln was born in a log cabin, to say that is romanticize it, it was three-sided hut with one side exposed. he was poor white trash who emerged to become the greatest president. and they're two preeminent self-made men in american history who converged in the sense that douglass met with lincoln three times at the white house. he was the first black man to meet a u.s. president on terms

of near equality, to advise him. and they considered each other friends. fact that they considered each other friends was significant given the importance ascribed to friendship in that time period in the 19th century. in ways that i never could have envisioned before beginning research and writing the book, they led striking, surprisingly parallel lives. many common occurrences in their rise and their self-making. which struck me because one, white man who grows up in essentially the south, born in kentucky, grows up in indiana and illinois, both states settled primarily by southerners and douglass a slave. most think of slave and white man as totally different during that time period. what are the commonalities or

parallel aspects of their self-making of their upbringing? probably first and foremost is the fact that more than any other factor, they were able to rise up because they learned how to use words as weapons. they understood the importance of literacy, the importance of being able to articulate their thoughts in order to convert their audiences to their cause. and both of them learned how to hone their skills of literacy and writing, both of them virtually memorized the same six books. long before they ever met they both read, reread, virtually memorized the same six books. any of you have any ideas what those books are? bible is one, probably most important. and this was a period in which common education was not that well known. particularly in the south, particularly in what's now the

midwestern states. many young boys did not have formal education. if you only have one book to read aside from religious significance, the bible in my view is probably greatest work of literature in western culture. both quoted extensively from the bible. read and reread it. what else? shakespeare. lincoln loved shakespeare. most people know that. douglass could quote shakespeare almost as comfortably as lincoln could. you all have great. a third? any thoughts? pardon? close. close. very good. if shakespeare was most famous writer in america in the day, which he was -- shakespeare now is read primarily by well-educated. at the time he was read by

yeoman farmers in mississippi, all classes, blacks, whites, rich, poor, everyone read shakespeare, a phenomenon when they think about it today. second was lord byron. douglass loved byron, so did lincoln. byron's poetry was seen by americans as emblematic of american ideals of freedom. byron was seen a great freedom fighter in his poetry and in his life. he died for the cause of freedom in greece. that was another figure. another is "the columbian order," a collection of speeches designed for young boys to learn to become orators. this was a time when public speaking, oratory was one of the

only forms of public entertainment. no matter where you started in life, if you could be a great orator, there were few limits how far you could rise and both understood that. caleb bingham wrote the introduction to "the columbian" and told young boys how do you learn to be a great orator? here are great speeches from cicero to great english writers. taught young boys to position their tongues to lose pronounced accents. both have what we would think of as horrible accents that betrayed them as being ignorant or stupid. and part of being a democratic gentleman was to lose some of your pronounced accent. lincoln retained more of his

than douglass did. but bingham taught young boys to position their tongue to lose accent, borrowing from cicero and others, how to speak with the proper cadence to reach a large audience that. was book both men learned and virtually memorized. lincoln, instances where people remember lincoln going out into the fields and speaking to the crops in the prairie. douglass read -- douglass was forbidden to read, masters wouldn't let him read. he shined shoes, received some money, purchased used copy and kept it hidden. it was only thing he took with him when he became free. so that was a crucial book. another book was "aesop's fables," most are still familiar with it today.

it is an oral tales of slaves. it's a slave narrative. it's a slave narrative, a collection of oral tales of slaves from classical antiquity, from ancient greece. that was a book that was a best seller, widely read then and still read today. so they read the same books. they were familiar with the same examples of books that helped them rise up through using words as weapons. another common parallel was that they both defined a fight as a major turning point in their young lives. and it's ironic, at very time both men were describing or characterizing themselves as

intellectuals a fight became a turning point. for douglass, fight with a slave breaker named covey, grew up eastern shore of maryland, fortunate to go to baltimore because his master had died and he learned to read and write and acquired copy of "the columbian orator." he was sent back to university of maryland and literate and gained sense of empowerment. returned to shore was considered insolent because he stood up to him. he decided that douglass needed to be disciplined and man on the eastern shore, covey, known as a slave breaker, broke wills to

become good or proper slaves. douglass was hired out to do hard labor for him for one year. for first six months of his tenure was covey was mercilessly whipped at least once a week, welts thick as his thumb, blood streamed down and whipped again before the wounds were healed. after enduring this, decided to stand up to covey. he was big for his time, over six feet, strong and muscular. covey was 5'7", and douglass realized he reached a point he was not afraid to die, that was the cost of standing up to him. he stood up to covey, had a two-hour epic fight. and douglass was disciplined throughout this fight so he

could have killed covey in my view or seriously maimed him. he chose merely to beat covey in this fight, and in the wake of this fight, douglass said that defined himself thereafter as a free man in form, even if he would be a slave in fact. and from the moment of that fight, douglass vowed to become free. covey for his part never divulged the fight. douglass could have been sent south into mississippi or killed or so seriously maimed would have destroyed him. covey didn't divulge the fight in part because he wanted to preserve his reputation as a slave breaker. this highlights the degree to which douglass was a privileged slave, i argue. one, he was born in maryland, not mississippi or alabama. born in the deep south, chances of becoming free were virtually

nil. vast majority of slaves that became free were in the border states. he also suspected douglass was the son of a white man and slave woman and suspected he was son of his master. there's some evidence for that, given how well he was treated. he was not punished because of the fight with covey and before he actually ran away, he attempted to run away and was captured. most slaves that attempted to run away and were captured were sent into the deep south or whipped so hard they were permanently maimed. and douglass in the wake of his attempt to run away was promised his freedom at age of 21. he was a privileged slave. lincoln for his part was also lucky. most people know how big lincoln was. he was 6'4", again -- he was

taller than most men by almost a foot. lincoln grew up like douglass in this vicious backwoods community. many scholars have romanticized the prairie background of lincoln. it was a vicious backwoods community in which defining of manhood was to fight hard and drink a lot. one of the reasons both douglass and lincoln abstained from alcohol their entire lives because they understood the destruction that alcohol caused in their communities. lincoln had just moved to new salem, illinois, at age of 21. described his first 21 years as a slave because technically he had to turn over all of his money to his father. he was finally free from his father who he didn't like pause his father was not interested in education, not really interested in literacy, was a carpenter and

farmer. and lincoln arrives in new salem and one of the leaders was jack armstrong, essentially a thug, and he and his buddies loved to lure strangers into poker games, steal their money and beat them up. jack armstrong liked to roast a live pig to hear the sounds of it squealing before it died. one of the most common forms of fighting in the backwoods of illinois was what people called a no-holds-barred rough and tumble. it was not uncommon for man to lose a nose, part of an ear, finger, have testicles ripped out. and great prize was to liberate an opponent's eyeball and keep it as a prize. a brutal environment. armstrong wanted to fight lincoln in a rough and tumble.

lincoln said no, i don't want to do that, i will wrestle you, a regulated wrestling match, less brutal form of fight. each man had to keep an arm on the other. people came from miles around to bet on it, common in fighting. it's unclear exactly what happened in the fight. but what we do know is that they called it a draw. armstrong fouled lincoln, the fight ended, they called it a draw, no one lost money and in the wake of that fight lincoln quickly became a leader in new salem and also a friend of jack armstrong. within roughly six months lincoln was already running for state legislature. he became the captain of his company in the blackhawk war and rose up quickly. both men married up and i argue

their wives were central to their self-making. douglass married a free black woman, which was very unusual. when he returned to baltimore, it was unusual for slaves and free blacks to interact in that way. and anna murray was primarily responsible, her money, for allowing douglass to dress as a free sailor, to purchase a train ticket and take a train north to new york city where he became free in 1838. without her help his chances of becoming free would have been i think profoundly limited. most people see mary todd as a mad or crazy woman. mary todd was at least as sophisticated about politics as lincoln was. mary todd grew up in kentucky near the home of henry clay, who was the hero of -- a statesman

for lincoln. she was a friend of clay. an aristocrat. lincoln in marrying mary todd made a very wise political decision. mary todd advised lincoln every step of his rise through politics. and so without their wives, i think potential for them rising up would have been very slim indeed. the first time that douglass ever refers to lincoln is 1847. douglass moved to rochester, new york, a newspaperman, already most famous blackman in the country, virtually a household name. becomes famous overnight because of his autobiography which is a best seller, in this sense similar to obama. and he writes about lincoln in the context of lincoln's term in

congress, and douglass refers to lincoln as part of rogue's gallery of congressmen who oppose a bill to abolish slavery in washington, d.c.. and why does lincoln oppose this bill to abolish slavery in washington, d.c., as a congressman? because it deviates from lincoln's strategy for ending slavery. lincoln hated slavery, said it numerous occasions he hated slavery as much as any abolitionist and there's no reason to doubt that. but his strategy to end slavery was three-fold, gradual, genial, not to uproot society. in debates with stephen douglas, when do i think slavery will end? not less than 100 years.

would have placed end of slavery at very earliest barring civil war in 1958. a very gradual end. and lincoln advocated compensation to masters for the loss of their property. which this bill in washington, d.c., did not call for, one of the reasons he opposed it. and lincoln also urged subsidies for colonizing free blacks outside of the united states. in essence his vision of america was a white one, and douglass was outraged at lincoln's opposition to this bill to end slavery, and probably the -- before they became friends, they were quite frankly enemies. and this is highlighted in lincoln's first inaugural in 1861. the closest frederick douglass

ever came to losing his faith in america, repudiating the possibility of america ever living up to its ideals in the declaration, was in the immediate wake of the first inaugural. why? because in the first inaugural lincoln says two things in particular that outrage frederick douglass. one is -- remember when lincoln gives his first inaugural, the seven states had seceded, confederacy had formed and lincoln is appealing primarily to southern states, upper south that lincoln hopes to prevent from seceding. he first vows to vigorously defend the fugitive slave law which many northerners viewed as unconstitutional because it legitimated the kidnapping of

free blacks and completely ignored due process of law. second and more onerously in first inaugural, lincoln affirmed or embraced a new constitutional amendment that congress had just passed. a few days before lincoln gave his first inaugural, congress passed first 13th amendment. most remember 13th amendment as one that abolished slavery. first one passed to conciliate the southerners, was amendment to guarantee slavery in the slave states forever. lincoln ran on a platform of prohibiting the spread of slavery with a goal for its ultimate extinction. that was the basic platform. accepting this amendment which

guarantees slavery in slave states, lincoln was cutting against the basic platform. he said i'm out of here, plans a trip to haiti with the goal of emigrating there and referred to lincoln as a slave hound and representative american racist. now as a way to understand their differences at this point, the best way to summarize lincoln as a politician is to say that as president he sought first and foremost the preservation of the union. based on the oath of office he took. he hoped to defeat the confederacy and preserve the union. the question of slavery was always secondary to that chief objective. and frederick douglass, his fundamental identity and it was one of calling for immediate end to slavery and racial equality under the law.

throughout his life, those were the two things that frederick douglass championed. and during the inaugural in wake of the southern states seceding, douglass felt the quickest way to reunite the nation was end of slavery. didn't go to haiti, when the war broke out, douglass recognized this war offered a way to end slavery. douglass was very familiar with john quincy adams' statement in 1836, stood up in congress and said to southerners, if you keep being belligerent there's going to be a civil war and if there's a civil war the constitution allows under its war power clause the congress and president to end slavery constitutionally. for frederick douglass, slavery itself represented a state of war, and he believed that

because slavery represented a state of war, he called for the immediate end of slavery, even before the actual war broke out, because in his mind for constitutional reasons. and douglass said after -- immediately after fort sumner, said end slavery to end the war because slaves constitute the stomach of the rebellion. unless you emancipate the slaves, 4 million blacks, 1/3 of the southern states are aiding and abetting the confederacy. feeding them, building roads and fortifications and trenches for them. if you emancipate them you'll have in theory 4 million people on the union side. lincoln ultimately came to recognize the military validity

of emancipating slaves as a war measure which is precisely how the emancipation proclamation was phrased. he emancipated slaves as part of a war measure. in their divergence to convergence resulted in fact that douglass and lincoln had two very different objectives that converged, and their friendship was more than anything else utilitarian. when they first met in 1863 in the wake of the emancipation proclamation, douglass recognized that he needed lincoln on his side to help him achieve his objective of universal emancipation and equality under the law. and lincoln recognized that he needed frederick douglass on his side, douglass was essentially the ambassador of african-americans, in order to

achieve his goal of preserving the union. the details of their first meeting were that in august of 1863, douglass had been recruiting black soldiers, emancipation proclamation effectively called for the arming of black troops and douglass devoted full-time to recruiting blacks, virtually single-handedly recruited famous massachusetts 54th black regiment. his two sons for his first two recruits. douglass got fed up with recruiting because of the administration's policy. he was fed up because black soldiers were paid half of what white soldiers were and were not being promoted for valiant duty, so he decided to take his case to washington, d.c..

he takes a train to d.c., arrives in the city on august 10th of '63, early in the morning. goes right to the white house. there's already a long line of people waiting to see the president. lincoln was known as having an open-door policy, admitting just about all callers. douglass stood in line, thought he was going to have to wait all day, maybe more. he sent up his card, within two minutes he's called up by lincoln. and as he passes these whites in line to go up to see lincoln, he hears one of them say, i see how it is, they let the nigger through. he arrives, hello, mr. douglass, i know about you, i've read you, what can i do for you? douglass states his case for lincoln, lincoln vows he will make every effort to pay black

soldiers the same as white soldiers. he acknowledges he's been very tardy in emancipation and giving equal rights to blacks, and he also vows to promote black soldiers. at this first meeting douglass and lincoln acknowledge that politically they very different. douglass is a radical activist, lincoln is a politician. douglass wants immediate end to slavery, immediate racial equality, lincoln's chief goal is preserving the union. but at this first meeting they define themselves afterwards as friends. why? in part because they both have enormous respect for each other as self-made men. one of douglass's most famous speeches was on self-made men. they recognize the accent, the dialect of each other. in my book i try to convey or capture what each man sounded like at various stages of his

career. in fact after that first meeting president lincoln told the next person he saw in the white house he had just met with frederick douglass and he said i consider mr. douglass one of the most meritorious men in these united states. douglass said after meeting lincoln that he considered lincoln the king of self-made men. so they both had great respect for each other as self-made men, even though they disagreed politically. the second meeting occurred a year later at a time in which the war was going very poorly for the north. lincoln thought he was going to lose re-election. august of 1864, northerners were tired of fighting and lincoln felt sure he was going to lose to the democratic nominee george mclellan who ran on a platform of negotiated settlement with the confederacy, immediate

peace, which would have left slavery intact. and lincoln calls douglass to the white house for an urgent meeting. douglass comes to washington, meets with lincoln in the white house, and lincoln tells douglass i'd like you to plan and embark upon a john brown extreme in which you'll invade the south with an army of black and whites, bring as many blacks as possible to union lines, worst-case scenario is that i'll lose the election to mclellan, but thousands more blacks will be in union lines and free before slavery remains permanent in the confederacy. best-case scenario these thousands more blacks that come to union lines will aid the union effort, lead to a major victory, turn the tide of war, convince northerners that the war will soon be over and we can

finish off this fight. frederick douglass was amazed at this request. because douglass had been a close friend of john brown. john brown if you remember was the most radical white abolitionist of the day. john brown had with an army of blacks and whites in 1859 went south, raided and took over the federal arsenal at harper's ferry, virginia, with an eye to distributing the arms there to slaves and inciting a massive slave insurrection. although douglass had opposed john brown from going to harper's ferry, it was only because he thought brown was going to lose his life. which he did. he was captured, tried for treason and executed for treason. and harper's ferry affair was one of the last sparks that led to the civil war. frederick douglass however

considered john brown one of the greatest men in these united states. that's a quote from douglass. john brown wrote his provisional constitution which would govern the areas he hoped to remove from slavery in douglass's home. and brown could not write a sentence, so suggests that douglass edited it for him. he was very much in favor of brown conspiring against the united states to end slavery if he thought it would work. lincoln and all republicans distanced themselves dramatically from brown when it occurred. lincoln said i agree in principle that slavery is wrong, but john brown committed treason against the united states government and justly deserved to be hung. now four years later president lincoln is calling for douglass

to embark upon a john brown scheme. in essence john brown has been mainstreamed. there was also a period in which most northern soldiers sung the john brown song as they went to fight as inspiration in fighting the confederacy. douglass planned this john brown scheme, a few weeks later though general sherman was victorious in atlanta, began his march to the sea, it transformed northern opinion and essentially clinched lincoln's re-election, so that scheme never went into practice. the third and final meeting was during lincoln's inaugural address. douglass was invited to the address, and the reception. had a front row seat. sat right in front of lincoln. lincoln saw douglass when he gave his address. douglass went to the reception at white house in wake of the inaugural address in march of

1865. the war was virtually over, almost 200,000 black troops marching throughout the south. douglass was initially barred from entering the white house when he gets there because a policeman says you're not allowed to enter, blacks are not allowed to enter. douglass said must be mistake. sends his card in and lincoln admits him. lincoln sees frederick douglass, with a group of whites, he says here comes my friend frederick douglass. it's great to see you. there's no man in this country whose opinion i value more than yours, what did you think of my address. and frederick douglass responds mr. president that was a sacred effort. within a month lincoln has been assassinated. there's very good evidence had lincoln lived, douglass and i would have remained very close friends despite their political

differences. so what are the lessons of their friendship? one is that political differences do not necessarily correlate into intersocial behavior. douglass and lincoln genuinely liked each other, felt genuine affection for each other even though they never agreed politically. even in '64 and '65, douglass's hope for reconstruction was much more radical than lincoln. advocated immediate suffrage for all blacks, men and women and immediate racial equality under the law. lincoln representative of his entire political career, wanted reconstruction to occur much more gradually. but they generally felt comfortable. in part because they shared a common background, common interests and understood they were facing a common enemy that

threatened their identity and their livelihood. another crucial reason i think for their convergence relates to the very definitions of self-made men. both douglass and lincoln understood that self-making reflected the idea of one's self or of the self in state of continual evolution and flux. meaning that who lincoln and douglass were in 1840 were totally different than who they were in 1845, 1850, 1855, 1860 and both never changed more dramatically than in the civil war. and this contradicts the notion of racism. racism depends upon a self that is permanently fixed. depends upon one self who is permanently superior and white

to another self who is permanently inferior and non-white. and embracing this idea of self-making, state of continual flux or evolution, it contradicts this notion of racism, another important reason they were able to come together. what are the legacies of these two men? i mentioned that obama has been deeply influenced by both douglass and lincoln. obama has on frequent occasions acknowledged his debt to lincoln. he hasn't has much to frederick douglass, i think for two reasons. one is that obama very much defines himself as embracing a post racial america. and frederick douglass has come down to most people today as a race man. so for that reason, he wants to -- he has not acknowledged his debt. to see douglass solely as a race

man is erroneous. in his own day he was similar to obama, sought to move beyond a division of race and reach a common understanding between blacks and whites. douglass's friendship with lincoln was one of numerous with whites. close friend of john brown, garrett smith, very close friend of charles sumner, particularly at end of the war and reconstruction. but because douglass has come down as race man, obama has distances himself. second, particularly during the campaign and probably more significantly, obama understands if he acknowledges his debt to frederick douglass and said he had been influenced, opponents will seize on that fact, recognize he was radical and friend of john brown saying there you go again, associating

with another terrorist. what has obama learned from frederick douglass? as he said in his book "the audacity of hope," he says there are periods and instances in which power will concede nothing without a fight. that's what i learned from frederick douglass. and both obama and frederick douglass understood that words were the most potent weapons for fighting this opponent. that's one thing that he learned from douglass. another thing that he learned from douglass, i'm now paraphrasing douglass -- true art will break down racial barriers. douglass was, as i emphasize, one of the greatest writers and orators in his day. much as obama is. and frederick douglass would get up to speak before an audience of whites, and most of the whites in that audience before seeing and hearing frederick

douglass assumed that blacks were subhuman. most whites in douglass's day believed that blacks were incapable of self-government. and they would listen to douglass's very rich, deep baritone voice, they'd hear his eloquence, see his beauty -- and frederick douglass was nothing if not handsome, even his enemies acknowledged that. he was majestic in his wrath as one convert said of him. and they'd hear him and see him perform and essentially shed their racism and be converted to cause of abolitionism. numerous examples of that happening. one instance, douglass goes to buffalo, new york, to speak on abolitionism. virtually no one was abolitionist, everybody just wants to make money.

in buffalo for ten days and then over half the city comes to hear him on the green, no auditorium can hold the audiences and he's converted the multitude. true art breaks down racial barriers. there's numerous examples of obama, before whites hear obama saying i can never imagine myself voting for a black man. hear obama, see his majesty and eloquence and most acknowledge him to be immensely handsome, see his performance and shed racism to vote for him. best way to understand obama's political campaign is artistic performance, a very, very successful artistic performance. which is crucially important thing he's learned from frederick douglass. in some respects, frederick douglass is the most direct

descendant of barack obama, both men are children of one white, one black parent. both men became famous overnight, world famous almost overnight on the strength of their autobiography. both men among the great writers and orators of their day. ironically though, i think obama shares more in common with lincoln. why? first and foremost, like lincoln, obama defines himself as a politician. as a politician, he's constrained by what he can do. for him to accomplish anything, he needs to get elected. so no matter what he might think privately, he cannot publicly espouse certain things that would destroy his potential for getting elected. he's acknowledged his debt to lincoln about the significance, the importance of being pragmatic, the willingness to

sacrifice one's moral certainty in the greater goal of reaching for common understanding over racial, various social divisions. and both lincoln and obama have been very effective at employing their pragmatic vision. another similarity or something that obama has learned from lincoln not as many people have emphasized is that lincoln had a brilliant sense of public opinion. and he understood that the relationship between a political leader and the public was really one of a dialectic. a political leader should not simply internalize public opinion and echo it back, also should not put a stranglehold on the public to force it to the direction he wants to go, but rather understand the large, diverse views of the public and

through eloquence, through language, inspire them to move towards this collective or common goal. douglass and lincoln, like obama today, i think function more than anything else as inspiration. douglass and lincoln inspire us as obama has continually said he hopes to do. inspire us to bind up national wounds, to complete the unfinished work of the nation, by fulfilling the ideals of freedom and equality of opportunity for all americans. thank you. any questions, comments, criticisms? yes? >> how long did frederick douglass -- [ inaudible ]? >> douglass lived until 1895. so he lived another 40 years.

he gave numerous talks on lincoln. he came -- he considered lincoln the greatest american statesman. but he was also very honest. i think the most accurate assessment of lincoln to this day is when douglass gave the speech at freed man's monument commemorating lincoln's assassination. supreme court was there, president grant was there. congress was all their. the supreme court were all there. president grant was there. the statue, in case you have not seen, it is a statue of lincoln with the emancipation proclamation in one hand, and his other hand outstretched over a kneeling slate. it had been a icon in the abolitionist movement. douglas did not like the

statue. he said in his speech. bigots his speech to all the dignitaries by seeing mr. lincoln, are we, blacks our president lincoln or mr. lincoln's stepchildren. which no doubt shocked his audience because lincoln's chief goal was preserving the union. and then douglas did what he often didn't speeches. he learned it from the colombian order. it's called reversal. we start at one place and you end another. he said we are lincoln's stepchildren. whites are his children. because lincoln ultimately recognized that in order to preserve the union he needed blacks on his side, although we are his step children, through his transformation we became accepted as part of the .ational family it's a stunning, moving, .

and douglas gave a various versions of that for the rest life. douglas was immensely inspired by his friendship with lincoln. it.as proud of he felt like he grew us an it. there is evidence lincoln did not say as much about his friendship with douglas. but there is good evidence that lincoln was profoundly moved and transform through his douglas. that douglas helped him move interactions that he wanted to .o . i appreciated you matching the readings they shared, and how telling they were. you mentioned six. my recollection is you mentioned the colombian border. iran, fables. shakespeare. . what was the sixth? >> bible, shakespeare, lord

bayern, colombian order, rather burnt poetry, rather burnt poetry. sorry. >> thank you. >> lincoln loved burns because burns is a farmer who embraces his rich dialect. and lincoln had memorized most of robert burns. >> lincoln was a poet himself. >> he was a poet himself. in fact, in the book i argue that lincoln and douglas are two of the greatest writers in american history. yes. >> [inaudible] did lincoln have a more optimistic view of human nature than douglas? >> i would say not really. that's a great question. the reason i would say not really is relates to it relates

to their religious difference. one of the justification's for frederick douglass is that douglas defined himself as a profit. douglas believed that he knew that god believed that slavery was horrible and wrong. douglas knew that god knew that slavery was wrong and wanted it and it immediately, and douglas believed that one could dismantle san. douglas understood that throughout human history, one of the justification's for slavery is that all humans are slaves and one form or another. because of genesis, because of adam and eaves original san, all humans are sleeves to their sand. they are slaves to god. their sleeves and life. and part of being human is that

you can't overcome sand, and olson was a form of bondage. douglas essentially was as a abolitionist inverted the relationship between sin and slavery and said that slavery is a horrible sin and humans have the capacity to dismantle sent, and become free both achieving in our freedom as well as our freedom. lincoln, the best way to summarize his religious views is that he had a calvinists sensibility. lincoln continually said it was hubris to try to know what, to believe to know what god wanted. the most that one could do was to look for signs of what one that god wanted. because of that calvinists sensibility, lincoln acknowledged and meet depravity of humans. economic acknowledge their capacity for evil which is one of the reasons for his

pragmatism. douglas was someone who had this vision of the perfect society and believed it could be realized. racial equality and universal freedom. that reflected his deep, and jarring faith in humanity, and out with god. and the book i essentially say that frederik dog was embraced area of sacred self sovereignty. in other words, he believed that the kingdom of god is with a new and theoretically within all individuals. lincoln was much more skeptical of the potential for what i will call perfectionism. yes. she sat down? >> oh i'm sorry. i didn't see you. >> obama's approach, the way he raised funds, the internet allowed him to draw an incisive

moment that ousted the political interests. >> correct. >> is there anything equivalent to? lincoln >> cotton producers. the shippers. those people. where did they come out? >> that's a great question. not any direct parallels. i mean the similarities are that lincoln like a bomb in 1860 political election was a real dark horse. lincoln did not even enter the national political scene until beginning with his debates with stephen douglas. the real similarity as both men's capacity for being such eloquent and delegate public speakers. and critics acknowledge that of lincoln and his day. and that is true of obama, but in terms of the actual

institutional grassroots campaign that obama has so successfully employed, there was some of that equivalent in illinois, but because times have changed so dramatically, it is hard to draw direct parallels there. you had a question. >> i was fascinated by two things. actually several things. >> good. >> one piece, when douglas comes to washington, you actually have a replica of a pass. lincoln writes on it i concur. i assume it's the douglass papers that are in the library. >> they are. >> i got it. but whatever happened with that? the commission. i think would have been interesting to see, that was

part of the military. my other question is to john brown. how did douglas get away with that association? hunt him down. you know, being involved with the crowd. >> two quick questions. >> the first one i don't have time to go into. in the first meeting with linkedin, douglas meets, he goes to the white house with samuel palmer who is a abolitionist senator from kansas although he was in the background. they first go to stanton. he was so taken with the douglas is debating skills, and neo-of douglas that he promises douglas a commission as an officer. as a black officer. which would allow douglas to go south, and recruit lacks from the south for the army. for more blacks in the south,

which meant that his ability to recruit would increase dramatically. and he then went to the post general montgomery st. claire acknowledging that douglas is a union man, giving him the pass to go wherever he wants. and lincoln, douglas tells lincoln that he has just received a commission, he gets the newspaper because he's gone this commission to be a black officer in the army, he's immensely part of this. the commission falls through. it's probably because edward stanton understood the symbolism behind making, commissioning douglas as a union officer, and outraging and alienating conservative northerners who reflected the conservatism, the comparative

conservatism. douglas never really blames lincoln, but lincoln knew of this failure of the commission because lincoln had to sign all of the commissions. had, douglas and douglas thought briefly of going south anyway without the officer bars on his so shoulders. the gold bars. he decided not to go because he felt it would be much more dangerous. he felt he would be less effective at recruiting so he continued to recruit in the north. it was frustrating. when douglas ended his newspaper it was the longest running back newspaper in the 19th century. and he had been very proud at the prospect of becoming a black officer. why was douglas not captured during and after john brown's raid? the short answer is he almost was. when the news hit that john brown had rated the ferry, john

brown had been captured. there was a letter from frederick douglass to john brown in his nap sack. and president buchanan essentially granted all federal of a ssrs license to capture fredericton cluster of where he was and sent him to virginia for trial and almost certain death. technically, douglas was an accomplice with john brown because of his close friendship with him. douglas immediately got news of it. he mediately fled to canada. it was from canada that he wrote a newspaper. he wrote a newspaper article saying, acknowledging his friendship with the browns saying he does not oppose conspiring against u.s. government as long as it will work because the true ideals of the government are for freedom. he thinks lost england for six months.

and when he returns, essentially congress has a senate investigation for john brown, and they understand how politically combustible the rate is. in order to try to prevent more sectional tensions they essentially don't prosecute anyone and when douglas returns he is able to, no one accuses him of being a conspirator. and then, by, once the civil war breaks out increasingly americans come to agree with projectiles who said in the wake of his death, he said george john brown started the war that will hopefully and slavery. and increasingly, northerners came to agree with that which is why i said by 1864 john brown, who had been seen as radical fanatic by 64, he is mainstream.

the majority of northerners soldiers are singing the john brown song as they go off to battle. yes. >> in your estimation of the two men personally, at the end of the day to a degree in your opinion that the politician, jason, the activist notion of the ideal, to what degree did the activist accelerated -- of the possible. great question, great question. i wouldn't say jason. i would say -- i think that the relationship began is something of a dialectic. i think that the idealist and the politician should work together, acknowledging that they'll never entirely converge, but the idealist can inspire the politician, and the politician can highlight, through the idealist, the costs of trying to realize once

vision, or the practical problems of doing so. and douglass was -- i would characterize douglass as a prudent revolutionary during his time. it's one of the reasons he didn't go to harper's ferry with john brown. john brown spent two days trying to convince douglass you go with him. douglass said no, i don't want to go. i think i'm going to die i. think you are going to die. douglass was a very, very prudent, and disciplined. and so while he was an idealist, he wasn't like john brown, i would argue, or reckless idealist. in that sense, i think in that sense, douglass also shares a lot with obama -- immensely disciplined as individuals. >> you described douglass and listen as friends, and i'm wondering, is there a mid 19th century ideal of friendship that you are drawing on here. >> yes.

>> or are you drawing on? >> no, i think that's a great question. characteristic of friendship, initially unmanned western culture, through most of western culture, was that it was like this in a double sense. you liked the french, and you were like the friend. now there is a flaw in that basic definition for most of western culture, which is that the friend had to be just like you. in fact, four aristotle, four plato, for thinkers, even for quakers for the most part, it rich and poor can not be friends. fry subtle, men and women cannot be friends because they're essentially difference. and certainly, ethnic other, ethnic racial other, and someone else, could not be. france that started to change in the united states soon after the founding of the nation because of this awareness of this friendship as a, a symbol

of democracy, we need to think about the notion of interracial friendship. but the fact that douglas and lincoln setting aside their racial differences were like each other in very much -- in their self, making their background, and did come to like each other, i think, is significant. a second characteristic of friendship is and equality, or near equality, which douglas and lincoln shared. the third is in their, actually, at this time of the united states, there are two different understandings of friendship. one is a spiritual friendship. the second is utilitarian friendship. utilitarian friendship is the friendship that douglas and lincoln achieved, and that utilitarianism depends in part upon, i gained something from, you gain something from, which i spelled out. look at realized that douglas could help him preserve the union, lincoln could help achieve his goals defending

slavery. spiritual friendship. the difference between spiritual friendship and utilitarian friendship is that spiritual friendship is one in which the two individuals share a common spiritual world view and sensibility. aristotle and plato said, essentially, that a spiritual friend was as though two bodies unite into one soul. that's the end of term that we we would use today would be soulmates. and americans were very self conscious about their use of friendship, in douglass's correspondence is and his letters, after beating someone when, in the first series of letters with someone, he will say respectively respect for the u.s., or sincerely yours. when he first uses the term your friend, i mean, that's a significant moment. the whole tone of the letter has changed. in the 20th century, friendship has become much more a -- has

been much more used in the service of come off defecation of commodities. so it doesn't have the significant spiritual or political or otherwise. in the 20th century, the most common reference to spin to friendship is through dale carnegie's how to win friends and influence people. friendship is used in the service of selling. there's a breakfast cereal today in the united states called good friends, which features an interracial couple on the cover. so unfortunately, i think, friendship has lost some of its political spiritual, cultural significance. yes? >> [inaudible] you mentioned that there's very little documentation [inaudible] in your book. there's very little documentation [inaudible] and can's [inaudible]

douglas douglass's perception of lincoln [inaudible] -- >> right. >> i just wondered how much of this is [inaudible] projecting perceptions [inaudible] may not have been important for [inaudible] and the other question i [inaudible] would you think of lincoln's perception of race was shaped by his administration [inaudible] civil war of anti-slavery [inaudible] . >> right, right. >> so i just want you to [inaudible] . >> another great question. there is not very much material from lincoln describing his relationship with frederik douglass. i rely heavily, though, on dug douglass himself. i've read all of frederick douglass's letters, his three auto biographies, and douglass,

as an ex slave and as an african american, understood the significance and the importance of truth telling. and had an amazing memory, as well. he's even remembering incidences of ten, 20 years earlier, he sometimes gets a few details wrong, but the basic facts are right, and so the characterization of lincoln's attitude toward douglass comes primarily from douglass. douglass had no reason to falsify or romanticize lincoln's perception of him, really. and then -- so douglass is the main source for my characterization of lincoln. and i want to emphasize that douglass, you know, as i said, it wasn't until their first meeting that really started to see lincoln in ways that he felt he could really even interact with him. and douglass wanted to meet

with lincoln in the white house before the emancipation proclamation, there's no way that lincoln would even have admitted him. because it wasn't in lincoln's interest. so recognized that lincoln was politically very different, and still a conservative. but douglass has the capacity to, to feel comfortable around lincoln and even though they disagreed. so profoundly. the point you make about lincoln's other members in the administration, both in the cabinet and congress, is also an excellent one. because i characterize lincoln as a conservative republican. the two front runners for the republican party, or for the presidency in 1860, chase and seward, we're much, much more progressive. both of them, for example, believed that slavery was unconstitutional. think it did not. look at thought it was

constitutional. our argue that it was john brown's rate with douglas douglass's endorsement, or friendship with brown, that helped, more than anything helped lincoln get elected for a variety of reasons. but to see lincoln as a conservative republican who was pushed by circumstance to a place where he otherwise would not have gone is important. i mean look at himself set, events controlled me, i didn't control them. and i think that's important to understand. who lincoln fundamentally was was not a radical. and to champion universal emancipation, racial equality [inaudible] was a radical stance. those were the two basic templates of northern abolitionists. immediate end to slavery and racial equality. lincoln -- i mean it's questionable to how far lincoln ever went in terms of racial equality, given his, his vision of reconstruction. but he was pushed by events,

and i think part of his greatness reflect that lincoln understood that. he understood that that, that he was pushed in a certain position, that there was already a social transformation occurring in america. in 1860, very, very few northerners believed in racial equality or equality under the law and universal emancipation. by 1865, the vast majority of northerners embraced universal freedom and increasing numbers, large numbers, understood the significance of giving black men the vote. and so lincoln, in a sense, reflects the social transformation which is a result of the civil war. ! >> thank you very much! [applause] weeknights we're featuring

american history programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on three c-span 3. tonight, beginning at 8:00 eastern, a look at the national world war one memorial in washington d.c., which opened to the public on april 16th. he spent toured the site, located near the white house, with a headwind fountain, former u.s. world war i centennial commission vice chair. he told the story of the memorial's development and talked about the philosophy behind the design that honors the 4.7 million americans who served during the war. watch american history tv, tonight and every weekend, on c-span 3.