chief of the emerging civil war blog and this talk kicks off a night of programs from the group spring symposia. watch american history tv thursday beginning at 8pm eastern and every weekend on c-span 3 up next to look back at the 1969 stonewall riots a turning point in the gay rights movement. we'll hear from historian mark stein who spoke at the stonewall national monument in new york city in 2019. having to lie, i feel is is the saddest and the ugliest part of being on the sexual when you have your first bad love experience for instance, and you can't go to your brother or your sister and say i'm hurting at first i was very guilty.

and then i realized that all the things that are taught you not only by society but by psychiatrists it just the fit you in a mold and i've just rejected the mold and when i rejected the mold that was happier. these are mostly independent organizations all across the country. there's there's somewhere between 60 and 75 independent groups across the united states, maybe more now because they keep growing up overnight and this is a unified effort on the part of somewhere between 20 and 30 organizations in the east coast. there are differences prim. early of approached and of tactics certain groups for example tend to emphasize very militant confrontation tactics other groups will emphasize a more educational approach going out into areas where they're what you might call people who middle america people who don't know very much about homosexuality and other groups of emphasize different things. some groups most groups. in fact provide some kind of social services for our own people help for people in need but this is a minor part of the

effort the major effort today is to change the social institutions that make life difficult for us. you here? a portion film documentary from lily vincennes and this is what the stonewall inn looks like today inside the sunday new york times is a look at the demonstrations that took place in july 1969. and joining us from greenwich village new york is mark stein. he is the editor of the stonewall riots the documentary history. thank you for being with us on c-span and c-span 3 american history tv. we appreciate it. thanks very much for having me.

so take us back 50 years ago this week. what happened? well the police in that period routinely rated gay bars, and that was certainly the case in new york city and there was actually a raid on the stonewall inn a few days earlier and on the night of june 27th the police began a raid and it things proceeded in a fairly routine manner some of the patrons were allowed to exit the bar and some were detained. it was very common for the police to detain bar owners bar managers bartenders people of color people who transgress gender. so in the lingo of the day transvestites or drag queens or street, queens and then people who talked back or or fought back and so some people were detained inside the bar others began exiting the bar but on

that night and by this time, it was the early morning hours of june 28th patr. and pastors by began gathering on the street outside and as the police tried to bring those they had detained into police wagons the crowd began to erupt and over theext few nights there ensued riding in the streets protests demonstrations at one point. the police were actually trapped inside the bar until reinforcements arrived the tactical police were the ride control police were were called and and tried to re-establish order on the streets, but the writing proceeded over several days over the course of the next week, but why this location why the stonewall in and why july or june of 1969 what triggered this particular set of riots? well, it's a it's a complicated question. the stonewall inn was mafia owned and managed as were many gay bars in new york city and

some other american cities and there was a system of payoffs whereby the bar owners managers paid off the police in order to limit. although never completely restrict police raids on the bars, but the police would raid the bars even if there were these payoff systems in place. there are a lot of different accounts of why the police raided the bar that night the payoff system might have broken down. there was a mayoral election that was going on and that was often a time when police would raid bars as part of a crackdown on vice so the city administration would appear to be promoting law and order there were allegations of violations of liquor licensing laws disorderly conduct blackmailing other allegations about the stonewall. in particular, so that's probably why the stonewall itself was targeted why june 1969. that's a question that

historians have been debating for a long time. in global terms 1968 was really a major year where that witnessed rebellions and revolutions around the world as well as police reaction state reaction violence state repression. so in some respects, we can see the stonewall riots in 1969 as an outgrowth of the worldwide developments happening and then there were also local and national developments as i mentioned the mayoral election there just days weeks before the riots took place mayor john lindsey had lost the republican primary to be re-elected now lindsey was known to be a friend of the gay community in the late 60s, and he ended up winning the election in 1969, but he did so on a third party ticket and so in late june nobody knew that he was going to end up winning. there are also around that time

as a series of police killings. of lgbtq people around the country, los angeles, berkeley, oakland, california and in new york city, and i think that contributed to the rage and the anger and the fury that lgbtq people felt that night and in the the days and weeks surrounding the stonewall riots our conversation with mark stein. he is a professor of history at san francisco state university and he is the editor of this book the stonewall riots a documentary history. we'll get to your calls and comments in just a moment. we're dividing our phone lines regionally, and we do have a line set aside for the lgbtq community. that number is 2 0 2 7 4 8 8002 but mark steiner if you could for just a moment describe physically where you are situated. well directly behind me is the new stonewall national monument, which was created during the obama administration. it's a small park triangular

park and behind the park is the stonewall in itself. it's the two-story building with beige stucco and alongside of it a three-story building. there was all part of the of the stonewall inn. so this is in greenwich village in new york city in lower manhattan. and what did the monuments represent? well when obama referenced stonewall alongside, seneca falls and selma in his inaugural address. it really signaled a recognition that lgbtq activism lgbtq. the lgbt movement was part of the broader aspirational struggles for social justice in the united states, and that was a very powerful symbolic statement on the part of obama as president of the united states as the first african-american president of the united states and then establishing this space this

monument here just as another way of signaling the the road that's been traveled over the last not just 50 years but even longer to achieve lgbtq quality a still unfinished process, i might add but it's quite complicated with the stonewall national monument because this is an action on the part of the federal government, which for many many decades was quite oppressive towards lgbtq people still we have problems with with a federal policy. and so there's a kind of paradox right that the federal government is recognized this space and yet continues to adopt policies currently the best example might be the the ban on transgender military service members. so there's that paradox of recognition by the federal government, but also ongoing struggles and problems with the federal government and you mentioned the speech by president obama his second inaugural speech on january

21st, 2013 from the west front of the us capitol. here's what he said. we the people declare today that the most evident of truth that all of us are created equal. is the star that guides us still? just as it guided our forebearers through seneca falls and selma and stonewall just as it guided all those men and women sung and unsung who left footprints along this great mall to hear a preacher say that we cannot walk alone. to hear a king proclaim that our individual freedom is inextricably bound to the freedom of every soul on earth. that with then now former president barack obama in 2013, and and one more point mark steine about your location because the stonewalling itself is i guess the best way to say

it is a rather cozy bar. it's not very big is it? it's not very big in the large scheme of things, but actually it was known in 1969 as one of the larger gay bars in new york city and in greenwich village, it featured dancing it featured go-go boys, and so actually compared to some real holes in the wall the stonewall in was known to be relatively spacious and why were these locations so important at that time to the gay and lesbian community? well in 1969 same-sex was basically illegal in 49 out of 50 american states. there were also laws federal state and local laws that regulated lgbtq speech that regulated lgbtq participation in many aspects of public life difficult to get government jobs at the local state and federal

levels in 1969 bars, though. we're a congregation place. we're a place where lgbtq people could come together socialize together enjoy time together and in t >> in order to get a sense of how the media covered the gay and lesbian community back in the 19 sixties, i want to share with you and our audience a portion of a now controversial cbs news documentary, one in which dan -- has now recently apologized -- but in 1967, the title of the program was called, the

homosexuals. >> most americans are repelled by the beer notion of some homosexuality. cbs news survey shows that two out of three americans have responded to it with discussed, discomfort or fear. one out of ten says hatred. the vast majority believe that homosexuality is indulgence, only 10% say it is a crime. and yet, and here is the paradox, the majority of americans favor a legal punishment even for homosexual acts performed in private between consenting adults. the homosexual, not aware of his rejection, responds by going underground. the frequents their own clubs, bars, coffee houses, where they can act out in the fashion that they want to. where they can escape these disapproving eye of the society that they call straight. >> that from cbs news and mark stein, i'm sure you're familiar with this program. as you hear that and see that, your reaction? >> well, the media was changing in the second half of the 1960s

as well as the lgbt movement. so, i think that that program was criticized by the pre stonewall lgbt movement but there are other media stories that were more accepting and open to change. one example be the new york times magazine publishing a major story called civil rights and homosexual, in 1967. the wall street journal in 1968 published a major feature story, gay rights movement. and more generally, the lgbt movement has success in the second half of the sixties. and that was certainly true new york city. so, under the lindsay administration, there was a climb in sexual entrapment practices on the part of police. a decline in arrest for sexual solicitation. some successes in court decisions that allowed gay bars a little bit more freedom to exist and to prosper and thrive. so, things were changing actually in the second half of

the 19 sixties. when we turn to the rights themselves, the media reports were interesting, conflicting and ever-changing. so in that first week the new york times, new york post, new york daily news did all cover the riots. but it was buried news it was not prominent for front page news. the village voice date major stories on the stonewall riots, and had reporters on the scene even trapped inside the bar during the riots. and those were you know, much more significant stories. but it was really the alternative press, and the lgbt press that covered the riots more sympathetically, more comprehensively, and those of the stories that historians rely on, along with oral histories, police reports and photographs for rounding out the picture of what happened that evening. >> and the documentary of a little even sends.

our guest is mark stein, he is joining us from granted related to new york. he's also the author of rethinking the gay and lesbian movement, in 60 -- city of sisterly and brotherly love. as we talk about stonewall, the rights 50 years ago. a turning point for the lgbtq community. tom's on the phone from flint michigan. good morning. >> hi, good morning to both of you gentlemen and to all the viewers. this will be pretty brief. just a little context, i am a navy veteran, a gay navy veteran. and i grew up in a very much catholic household and, you know, this issue is portrayed many different ways. but many different folks in corners of society. but, what it really is it's about love. it is not about sex, so much. it is about love and, you know,

not letting anybody who is determined to fight love win. you are really fighting quite a force, right there. and, you know, coming from a religious background, the last thing i mention is, you know, lgbt key issues are often dealt by the religious right mentioned in the same breath as, abortion, culture deaf, you know, things of this nature. but there's so much in the bible that is taken way out of context and you know, a dear to selectively. so it is about love, period, have a wonderful weekend. >> hey, tom. you just down the line just a moment. have you personally felt discrimination as an openly gay american? >> well, i'm glad you asked and you know just as i value other viewers time also as well as yours, you two gentlemen.

i served 20 years in the navy retired and i, you know, i guess about 50%, so are my voice is kind of cokie this morning -- about 50% of it was so called, do not ask, don't tell. the other 50% and my first ten years in the military was under the republican preferred do ask and, you know, will i ask, and do tell. and that was particularly repressive and draconian. and it could land yoga out of the streets out of a job in the military extremely easily. i think bill clinton takes a lot of grief for do not ask don't tell. but in fact, it was a huge step forward for a more was in place before that. and yes, you know, the last

half of my sentence here will be, repression, you know, growing up in a particularly religious household, you better believe it. and thanks for asking. >> tom, thank you. mark stein, what are you hearing the story? >> well, i think it is interesting to see the movement as focused on issues of love. the pre stonewall movement was generally called the home oval movement. and file, follow, it was chosen as the key term precisely because it referenced love rather than sex. but i would say that the gay liberation movement that developed after stonewall, and to some extent began in the months before the riots, i'd say placed equal emphasis on love, intimacy, and six. sex was very central to the -- they wanted the legalization of

sex, same sex sex. they wanted their sexual identities to be recognized, affirmed, and validated. so, for at least a few years, sexual relations were quite central for the movement, immediately after the stonewall riots. >> post stonewall riots in 1969, here is a look at some of the highlights for the gay, lesbian, and transgender communities in 1973. the american psychiatric association declares homosexuality no longer a mental illness. and then a 1982, the first few years of the reagan administration, the cdc using the term, aides, for the first time. in 1996, president clinton signing the defense of marriage act, in 2011 president obama revoking the don't ask don't tell. in 2015, the supreme court in a five to four ruling legalizing same sex marriage. the pentagon ends a ban on a transgender people serving openly in the military. and in 2019, president trump rescinding that ban, involving

transgender service. let's get to tanya who's on the force from -- new york city. good morning. >> good morning. yeah. i am tanya walker. i'm an activist in new york city, and i'm transgender and i'm kind of high up in the lgbt community here. and i came out in the military to new york in 1986. and i met marcia pete johnson down by the village in edgy. and i know that the gay community did not like dragons because they were considered a strange community back then. marshall johnson was a marginalized black so -- who was at stonewall, who is fighting with the cops. and i notice that most of the photos and videos that we see, am i talking? >> yes, you're on the air, tanya. >> okay, thanks. >> did you have another question or comment?

>> yes. i wonder why he doesn't mention the black and drag queens who were in front of the bar fighting that night like marcia b. johnson? tanya rivero was also part of a gay rights movement -- >> thank you for the call, mark stein? >> no, the colors absolutely right. as far as we can determine, some of the leading roles in the riots were played by african americans, puerto ricans, trans people, street queens, drag queens, it is still quite uncertain as to whether they represented a majority of the people who participated in the riots. but there are many accounts that place them at the key moments leading the riots, displaying real courage, can't be courage, one might say. some individuals who are often credited with instigating the riots, leading the rights, sylvia rivera. marcia johnson, stormy delivery. there's still conflicting

accounts of when they were there, whether they were their, marcia p johnson herself on many accounts explained that she wasn't there when the riots started but she got there sometime later. so, if we take her at her word, yes, she played an important role that night, and certainly other people of color did. trans people did. but you may not have been there right when the riots started. >> let's go to day -- in new york city. good morning. >> hi, good morning. thank you c-span. i was 20 years old and you know, i came down and grew up on an island was acknowledged in upstate, and i would hitch down and go into the bars. julius was the other bar. all mafia run. and strange to me being sort of a macho kind of college student wearing -- young. wearing low-cost shirts, but boy, the stone wall was an amazing place. and i would go in early in the

evening before we went down christopher's. way down towards the river, towards the newport danny's which i had not heard mentioned. so, i went in at about 10:00 in the evening to stonewall maybe after julius, we'd go into there and just walk through. and it seemed all right. it seemed normal early in the evening. then i walk down to danny's. when i came back, maybe two hours later, it was -- and i have not heard this in the movie or the commentary as far as c-span last night, a wonderful program. people that were there -- you know... a choice reporter. but the -- i would say the queens. they were the bravest. they were lighting garbage -- i saw this. they were lighting garbage bins on fire, frothe outside. and throwing them in through the big window at the police who were inside at that point.

so i stood outside and i remember standing out, the bumpers of two caps that were parked right there in front of it. and this is the first tonight. i think i was there for the second night. you know, as back on the island, it was hard to get in. so, that's what i will never forget. the police were sort of trapped inside at the point that i got back there. and they were lighting garbage cans and throwing them in the window. that is all i want to say that is really true. and you know, i got a bit better after that. for a bit. over the years, i guess. years and years, decades and decades. i am 79. >> thank you for weighing in and sharing your regulations from 50 years ago this week. mark stein? your reaction? >> yes. well, my book reprints 30 media

reports and other accounts of the stonewall riots from 1969. it's quite interesting to see that the first counts are provided by the new york times daily news, new york post referred to the rioters as homosexuals or young homosexuals. moved in a way they were referred to as a vilified role as trans vests tights or drag queens, or street queens. and it's likely the most expensive coverage of that that where the local gay newsletter of the mattachine society, a local gay rights organization. interesting ali, the trans periodicals of the day, two of which were the ericsson educational foundation newsletter and trends vests did not cover the riots, about the gay oriented newsletter emphasized the prominent role played by street queens and drag wins in the riots.

but things are quite complicated. we also had the issue of translation 50 years later so today we tend to really policed the boundaries between gay and trans but in 19 69 million people like marshy who johnson sylvia rivera were comfortable referring to themselves as both gay and trans vest-ites. they did not see those things is necessarily in opposition -- >> to our viewers are viewers listening, and they're looking back 50 years ago the stonewall riots a turning point for the gay and lesbian community our guest from greenwich village new york is mark stein. he is the author of a new book that looks back at what happens 50 years ago, and we have been talking about new york city police officers. police commissioner james o'neil on twitter with this apology for the way officers 50 years ago handled the situation. >> i think it would be irresponsible for me to go through pride month and not to speak of the events of

stonewall inn in june of 1969. i'm not gonna be an expert here on stonewall. what's should've happen, should not have happened. today the actions taken by the nypd were wrong, plain and simple. the actions and alarms were discriminatory and oppressive, and for that i apologize. [applause] >> to the lgbt community, that think that this never happened in the nypd in 2019. >> mark stein, reaction to that apology from the york police commissioner? >> well in general terms i think the apology is a good first step but it is just that, a first step. i'd like to see similar apologies by the police commissioners of the many cities where lgbt people were killed in 1969 by the police.

that would include los angeles, berkeley california, oakland california. those will be steps alongside the actions of the new york police commissioner. but in addition, are we seeing leadership from city mayors from state governors. going all the way to the federal government. we still have only a few states or lgbt history education is mandatory in the public schools. we still have policies, local, state, and federal level especially with respect to trans people that could be addressed. where is the funding for the lgbt history education, lgbt history museums. there is an effort underway right now in new york city, there is a long-standing lgbt history museum and san francisco. we could see more of those projects funded by city, state, and local governments. more research into the history of lgbt abuse and harassment including abuse and harassment

by official government authorities. those are the steps that would build on what is really just a symbolic apology at this point. >> from new jersey, richard, good morning to you. >> good morning. i want to discuss the beginning of my coming out and going into new york as i used to go to the gay pride parade, but only when at night because i did not want to go near tv cameras, and my very best friend who was a schoolteacher said that he could not go to the gay pride parade until the evening time because he was afraid that he would definitely lose his job as a schoolteacher. he was the spanish an italian teacher in new jersey. and absolutely loved his job as a foreign language teacher. and i do remember enjoying

halloween on the christopher street. and then i remember that a big change was during the game and's health crisis where i was with a friend, tony, in a store front when they first started the game in's health crisis and they were setting up the telephone lines and things like that. and these men that were much older than me, i would probably 21, 22. tony said, because everybody was putting their name down on the piece of paper, and tony leaned over to the -- and he's extremely young, he's putrefied that these men will be on anything -- so, in that store front with the gay men's health crisis, i did not put my name on that piece of paper because the first thing i thought was the nazi brain, the gay concentration camps and that i would be put in a camp and possibly killed for being gay. >> richard, thank you for the call. we should point out that christopher street is of course directly behind you, mark stein.

that has become an iconic place for gays and lesbians. it is of course also located where the stonewall inn is situated. as you hear his story, what is your reaction? >> well, i think that one of the things that is good to look back at the early pride marches and protests in parades. the first of which took place in the summer of 1970 to commemorate the first anniversary of the stonewall riots. there had actually been earlier annual commemorations in philadelphia, in front of independence hall on july 4th. does began in 1965 and were held for five consecutive years but those were movements were made in the fall 1969, where they switched the annual recognition of the lgbt struggle from philadelphia and independence hall to stonewall and new york city. that now became what we know today as the gay pride parade. and eventually of course that spread around the united states

and around the world. but those early pride marches, pride parades in 1970, 1973, it was quite brave to participate and it wasn't certain whether there would be violence from the past, from harassers. and confront the participants. it was unclear whether the police would rent permits. and in fact, in los angeles, in 1970 it was only shortly after what was called christopher street west that the parade organizers received official police permits to conduct the march. and the only did so under judges orders it required a lot of courage on the part of the organizers -- but many of us believe that that is when the stonewall riots acquired the significance that they have today. there had been other lgbt

protests and demonstrations before stonewall, but stonewall became central to the way that we narrate lgbt history really because of the annual commemorations every summer that have gone on for 45 years. >> i want to put one point into perspective, the walter jenkins who at the time was one of the closest aides to president lyndon johnson worked with him for 25 years when he was in the senate. vice president, and then president. he was married, father of six children and this was the photograph of walter jenkins who was forced out of the white house after he had a sexual liaison with another man at the ymca here in -- the was charged with a crime on morals charges. and i mention that in 1964 to where we are today with pete buttigieg, the mayor of south bend indiana, openly gay and among the top two candidates running for democratic -- when you look at the heart of york of history, what does that

tell you? >> the candidates started running for office before stonewall. they were not generally successful. but there began to be successes in the 19 seventies. the first were actually in an arbor michigan. city council members came out as gay and lesbians and ran one elections. and there was a state -- allay noble, harvey -- in the late 1970s for the board of supervisors and san francisco. we begin to see successes in running for congress. then, shortly thereafter, a few governors by now there's been a kind of limit to that kind of electoral and point of office. so we've yet to have an openly lgbt cabinet member.

dean or vice president or president. >> is the country -- do you think the country would've elect an openly gay man as president in 2020? >> it is an interesting question. and i think that buttigieg is showing the country that it is imaginable. it is possible, and i'd also remind everyone that we have yet to have a woman president. they've yet to be represented at the highest levels of government in this way, and i think it is certainly a possible and maybe even likely that in our lifetimes there will be an openly lgbt member of the supreme court, vice president or president. >> according to the advocates, there are ten openly gay or lesbian members of the house or senate. we will show you that list. as we hear from dan in ontario california. good morning. >> hello, sorry it's ontario,

canada. but i was wondering, here in canada, it is basically become a non issue. and i noticed in the united states, there's a lot of attention paid to even the terminology that is used, like ill g bt q. -- lgbtq. it is unfamiliar here, and i'm just wondering, i want to get your opinion on this. there's a difference between how it is dealt with and then the language that is used and how that has evolved as well? >> thank you, again. >> well, actually i lived in canada, in toronto for 16 years. so i know something about what you are talking about. thinking back to the stonewall moment. it is actually exactly at that moment that a number of companies part -- countries -- that is the case right before the stonewall riots, for canada, west germany, and wales.

but it was partial decriminalization. and i know that there is a controversy that has been going on in canada very recently about the formal federal government apology for the criminalization of lgbtq people. and the unfinished nature of those reforms that occurred in the late 1960s. but i know that there's action even this month -- some of the criminal statutes it was not just saw tommy that was criminalized. lgbt people were harassed -- [noise] disorderly conduct, lewd conduct, upsetting the law. in canada, body house legislation, and a variety of

other criminal statutes. >> you're doing a great job, i know that the trucks behind you sometimes can drown out the noise, but we should point out that you are at the park that is now part of the national park service on christopher street. directly across from the stonewall inn. and it is of course open to the public. our guest is mark stein, he is a graduate of wesley university earned his degree from the university of pennsylvania. on the phone from washington, new jersey. good morning. >> good morning to everybody at c-span. good morning to professor stein. just a quick comment, i have a support of c-span, of what you guys for years. i just like to say a quick story. i knew about stonewall, and how much the remarkable room and it's guarded. it was a catalyst for the lgbtq movement. and i was just walking alone by myself one day in a hat and i had my mind on 1 million different things. and i don't have an income across the -- my pure accident --

came across the memorial park. and it is very... very good feeling, knowing that i was standing inadvertently in the middle of a catalyst for such a remarkable social distance movement. and i was really taken back. so, again, in brief, i want to thank c-span. and professor stein for shooting a positive and transformative light on the subject. thank you for your time. >> tom, thanks for the call. mark stein, let me take your point and move it a step further. how should we teach stonewall? and the significance of it 50 years later? >> well, i think many of us have been trying to improve lgbt history education in colleges, universities, and high schools for some years.

it is really important i think for to be integrated into our general narratives of american history. it is one thing for their to be courses on lgbt history, and college, and university. and when stonewall riots get incorporate into the general american history, a number of us are working very hard on that right now. and many of us are trying to teach the stone wall -- 12 years of political organizing by, a pre-stonewall movement. trying to teach the much broader history. it's important follow the story after the stonewall riots. how did it develop in the 19 seventies? the feminist movements, transgender liberation

movements, how did people of color organize autonomous lgbt movements? growing particularly strong in the late 1970s. how did all of that change in 19 eighties with the aids crisis. and then, what were the changes in most recent decades? legalization, but also the complications of what it means to be recognized by local, state, and federal governments. and the possibilities on how it might be compromised in their freedoms, and how it might be unfinished in a variety of ways. i think that's what a lot of us are trying to teach when you emphasize lgbt history. >> and of course, you have spent probably more time than most historians looking back at the events of stonewall. what has surprised you the most? >> well, i think the 50 year commemoration. i think many of us anticipated

that there would be an explosion of public interest. but i think even as i was working on my new book, i think maybe i underestimated the extent of the public interest. so, that is gratifying. it is an opportunity for us to teach about stonewall specifically. but also teach about broader lgbt history, and a broader history of social justice movements, and to connect the past to the president. so that, i think has been an important aspect. i guess it's also frustrating to see many of the myths circulate about stonewall. claims that the stonewall riots started the lgbt movement, when we know that there is a pre-existing movement. we see a lot of photographs being circulated on the internet that purport to be from the stonewall riots that are not from the stonewall riots. we actually have quite limited photographic evidence of what was going on, and really only one image published in the new york daily news. that captures the confrontation

between the police and the rioters. so, the internet creates the problem. it is of course creating many opportunities. but it also creates the problem of once a problematic representation is presented on the internet and then it can go viral and spread and then we end up with lots of misinformation and misinterpretation. >> our next caller is from india, new york. welcome back to the conversation, good morning. >> [inaudible] >> good morning, are you with us? >> yes, i am, can you hear me? >> we can now. go ahead with your question or comment. >> thank you first of all for everyone behind the scenes who put us all on every day. and you know it's passed -- my ministry is ecumenical, ecological, egalitarian. one world life systems.

stonewall needs not just to be a historical site. it needs to be an insight into our history. and mr. stein, i think that would concur that not only the commemoration of these events -- and i did not come out until i left the seminary in 83. and then i went into the peace corps and i won the most comprehensive case in the peace corps when i was wrongly fired. and one of the things they fired me for was being gay. and that was in senegal. and then also, i wrote -- i had i passed my own human rights ministry. but the last paper i had a catholic university was same gendered marriages and what we do not realize is that what we need is a vehicle of veracity with a capacity to uphold those

self evident truths. and so, what we like, i would think we need, with all the top and everything is good about the reparations, about voting rights, about equal access, i got fired by trinity church standing up for south african transgender women to use the woman's bathroom. that we need human rights courts. >> nina stop you there, and give chance for augusta respond. mark stein? >> one of the things the caller brought up was religion. and the oppressive vote by religion, and then the role played by religion. before the stonewall riots, religious leaders were important allies of the lgbt movement. along with i would say the american civil union which is one of the most important allies for preach stonewall movements. in san francisco, there was a very influential council and religion in the homosexual.

which featured a number of ministers who allied with the lgbt activists of that day, and really made important groundbreaking efforts in california, and those efforts continued after stonewall, so i think that there's probably a tendency now to think about the religious community as possible, or at odds with lgbt aspirations. but in fact, religious communities are divided. and we now have had for several decades, religious denominations who are fighting for lgbt inclusion and rights, and then others who are in the forefront of opposing lgbt's -- reparations. and even some of those that have been hostile, there are divisions within. and so, efforts within even the catholic church or the mormon church to promote lgbt acceptance and lgbt rights. so, religious communities in the united states and elsewhere have been an important site of struggle along with the other

sites of struggle that we think about. our schools, the media, popular culture, politics. >> 50 years after the riots which moves into early july, what does the rainbow flag which is behind you represent to you as a historian? >> well, rainbow flag emerged as one of several symbols and icons of the lgbt movement. and the many colors was meant to celebrate the diversity of the lgbt movement and community. so to emphasize that it is not an all white community, it is not an all middle class community, not all men, but rather encompasses people from all backgrounds and all social groups in american society and in the global community. and there have been calls to expand the colors on the rainbow flag to even further emphasize the diversity of lgbt

communities movements, activism. >> tony, in denver. good morning, welcome to the program. >> thank you. mr. stein, brilliant presentation on stonewall. i only had a cursory understanding before you share today. i have two questions for you how large is the lgbtq community, a large demographic? i'm sure the statistics they are closeted people of course, but i would like to know. that and second, as a historian, are you concerned -- i am concerned as a white male about injustice for anybody who is not white over the last couple of years. and i'm wondering if that is a -- if you have a view on -- are we going backwards as a society? not just for lgbtq, but just in general in terms of social justice movements.

so, answers to those two questions would be helpful. thank you. >> tony, thank you for the. call mr. stein? >> quantification is very difficult. we have a lot of surveys that go back all the way to the mackenzie studies in the 19 forties 19 fifties. and if the question is ask narrowly, we tend to get reports of one to three to five to 10% of the population. but the question is asked broadly, we have much march larger numbers. if we think of cooler, it is used to speak of a much broader ray of people. and if it represents everybody who has ever had a moment of same-sex desire, everybody who has overhead transgressed gender in any aspect of their life, we start to get much larger percentages. we might even say that 100% of the population is potentially queer, although not of course

everybody living that or claims that identity. so, it really depends on how we ask the question, how we define each of those letters of the alphabet. with respect to the current moment and whether we are making progress, taking a step back. i think in many respects they happened in cycles, these things. they're important reforms in the obama administration and as we have seen in many areas of social justice. entrenchment and reaction, during the trump administration. of course there are limits to that. we have branches of the state and local governments, some of which are continuing to make important strides. so, it is complicated. and sometimes sometimes are one step forward, two steps back. and of course it really depends so instruments. , facts of law there has been

progress. but in other aspects, there has been a retrenchment. and if we go back to your first question, the notion that we each have to claim strict identities and avoid dealing with the complexities of gender and sexual flute -- fluidity, maybe we're not as such a great moment right now because obviously we're seeing a more and more insistence the people claim strict identities and don't embrace possible transformation -- possible fluidity of gender and sexuality. a question on life courses, and then -- >> this headline from the new york daily news, and it reads as follows. a nest rated, queen bees are stinging mad. >> mark stein, what do you think of that headline? >> well, it is characteristic of some of the main street press coverage of the stonewall

riots. because my book offers basically 30 accounts of the stonewall riots from that summer. we get to compare how mainstream news favors and magazines covered the riots to ulnar turn out of paper like the village voice, and in new york the rat, and screw. and then periodicals like the berkeley barb and berkley tribe. and we get to see lgbt press coverage. you would not have seen a headline like that in lgbt newspapers and magazines and newsletters of the day. but you know this was a way for mainstream newspapers to get readers to get interest. and it can be, then it complicated to use those sources. but there are important sources. and they help us understand how it is that people learned about stonewall. incidentally, the magazines of the day time newsweek, did not cover stonewall until the fall, until october. and so, it took several months

before at least the magazines of the united states to see stonewall as something significant and worthy of coverage. >> you spoke earlier about the importance of the bars and taverns for the gain lesbian community. nancy young is a professor at santa clara university in from the c-span video library looking back at the role that they played in the lgbtq community. >> gays and lesbians who came of age in the forties, fifties, and sixties speak over and over, and over again of how they risked the reputations, their marriages, their families, their livelihoods by going to gave ours. because the gay bars saved their lives. they kept them from despairing that they were the only ones. kept them from believing that society was right, that they were sick and criminal. and would be better off dead. in the bars and nightclubs, they found hookups, and one

night stands. they also found partners and lovers and friends and people who accept them as they were. they did not have to carry out the exhausting work of pretending to be straight. they could be themselves, and being truly yourself is very precious. and it's worth a lot of risk. lesbians during this period suffered double discrimination, even the most gay men saw women as inferior. in the days before whites -- widespread feminism, the lesbian bar was the truly rare place where women were not pressured to cater to men. and lesbian in the 1940s said, -- our girls, dresses, ideals. that was a uniform virtually required of all women. lesbians could wear pants and be free from the straight men's unwanted sexual attention. >> that from nancy young, santa

clara university professor some c-span video library. and i want to move beyond the riots in june, early july of 1969 and ask you, mark stein, what happened next after stonewall demonstrations? >> well, initially the existing gay rights organization in new york city tried to harness the energies unleashed by the riots. and there were follow-up protests and demonstrations in greenish village. and actually in queens new york where a public park has been the sight of harassment by vigilantes of lgbtq people. but very quickly, it became clear that the older, almost all organizations were not going to be the main vehicles for the future and so they're emergency organizations. the first major win in new york city was called anti-gay liberation front, there was also the queen's liberation front a little while later.

radical lesbians. representing lesbian politics. groups like third world gay revolution formed, representing people of color. and then the gay activists alliance in new york. which was a-less -- less radical than the original gay liberation front. the gayle abrasion front any other organizations that i mentioned were committed to alliances, with the black panthers and the anti war movements, with women's liberation, and they participated in marches and demonstrations of those other groups. and they really were calling for a radical restructuring of american society, sexual restructuring, social restructuring, political restructure. the gay activists alliance in contrast decided to focus more exclusively on gay rights. that really then set the trend forward followed for the next several years. very influential, very powerful,

very active organization in new york city and somewhat organizations around the country. >> let me ask you about more recent moments in the role of the winds are in her role in challenging doma, the defense of marriage act. why was her participation, why was her case so significant? >> overtime, the issues and priorities of the lgbt movement changed. there were mainstream aspects of it lgbt movement. that began prioritizing inclusion in the military, and inclusion in marriage, inclusion in family and i, for inclusion in religion and that was contested within the lgbt movement many people thought that the radical revolutionary of the gay liberation movement were anti-war. they didn't want inclusion in the military. we are opposed to monogamy and conventional family life. so there is that tension nevertheless for many people a

goal of the lgbt movement was broad acceptance, equality and all aspects of american life, and e.d. windsor struggled for a same-sex marriage, was an aspect of the lgbt movement. her role, the role we are central than in a stab listing or in achieving this major long-standing goal of the lgbt movement, which was for those people who want to marry, for those lgbt people who want to marry that they have the legal right to do so. >> in 2016, during one of the gay pride marches, rangers, those from the national park service joining in the gate pride movement. what does that tell you about where police and authorities were in 69, and where we are today? >> again, i think today there is conflicting feelings about the participation of the police, the military, elected officials,

representatives of local state and federal government. on the one hand, it represents acceptance and inclusion. and it's a far cry from the situation 50 years ago. on the other hand, have those levels of government, locals, state, and federal fully acknowledged the long-standing acts of harassment and abuse of violence committed in the name of local state and federal governments? are they fully addressing today's cutting edge issues, right? so, there is a double edged aspect of participation of local state and federal officials including representatives of the national park service. are they doing everything that they could be to make up for past wrongs and to address ongoing struggles? >> in half a minute, the cover of your book represents, what? and your mind? why did you selected?

>> it's a photograph from the week of the stonewall wire riots, it's a staged photograph, as i mentioned earlier. we only have one image of the confrontation between protesters and the police. we don't have the original. most versions people will see our a grainy image of a newspaper photograph but these were staged, mostly taken in the evening of june 28th, the second night of writing. these were a group of participants who he gathered, staged on a staircase, on this very street. and they represent i think the diversity of the participation. we see people who at least look to us to be african american, puerto rican, we see trans people, we see the youthful energy of the participants. we see camping, we see same-sex

affection and intimacy in the series of fred photographs. so, in some respects at least it captures some of what was going on during the weeks, the week of the writing. >> author, historian, and history professor at san francisco state university, mark stein who is joining us from christopher street and granted shill new york. thank you very much for being with us. >> thank you very much for having me. >> american history tv on c-span 3. every weekend, documenting americas story. funding comes from these television companies and more. including comcast. >> you think this is just a community center? no. it's way more than that.

>> defense secretary lloyd austin joins chiefs of staff chair general mark milley and defense undersecretary michael cortez to fight thursday before the senate armed services committee on the presidents 2022 budget request. live coverage begins at 9:30 am eastern on c-span 3. online, at c-span.org. listen live on the free c-span radio app. >> weeknights, we are featuring american history tv programs as a preview of what's available every weekend on c-span 3. chris mackowski is the author of france last bother that'll. the personal memories of ulysses s ground. he talked about his book which recount life post presidency including his financial ruin at the hands of unscrupulous business partners. is diagnosis with terminal throat cancer, and his decision to write his meir