♪ >> this is american history tv, featuring events, interviews, archival films and visits to college classrooms, museums and historic places. exploring our nation's past every weekend on c-span3.

>> next, a panel of scholars discusses the relationship between american literature and the constitution. they argue this is where the ideas on american democracy were expressed and disseminated to the public. the national constitution center hosted this program and provided the video area mr. rosen: it is an honor to introduce our panelist of 3 billion scholars who have -- three brilliant scholars who have shared so much light on the connections between law and literature. alison lacroix is an associate member of the university of chicago's department of history. she is the author of the ideological origins of american federalism which we have discussed, and, in addition to

her important leadings about law -- important writings about law, she has co-authored books on signature -- on literature. most recently cannons and codes, law and literature in america's. she is writing book about constitutional discourse between 1850 and 1861. the professor of law, professor of courtesy by english and intellectual life at stanford law school. she is also the 2020 guggenheim constitutional studies. the author of the enters of pardoning and the coeditor of two other books on literature, the oxford handbook of law, she has written many important articles. and, catherine zuckert, the

visiting at arizona state university. the american imagination, philosophy and novel form. she has written many important articles from politics and literature, and political theory, including machiavelli's politics and neil strauss and the problem of political philosophy. it is such an honor to welcome our panelist. i'm excited about the discussion, i will jump right in , the -- you have a wonderful article about the lawyers library. and many of the greatest founders including jefferson and joseph story and john marshall believe that reading literature and novels was crucial to the cultivation of virtue and teaching us how to live. and, you note that thomas

jefferson, in response to a request by his prospective brother-in-law, drafted a list of 148 recommended reading titles, which he broke out into a bunch of groups, including in the fine arts category, 75 titles including plays, the poetry of homer and virgil. and several works of fiction including donna -- including don t gotay, -- don quixote. tell us more about thomas jefferson's reading list, jefferson wrote everything is useful that contributes to fix and practices of virtue. prof. lacroix: thank you for inviting me to be here and for this great discussion and question. yes, i think the jefferson list from 1771 is this wonderful and

revealing document that tells us so different things. first of all, as you said, jefferson wrote it in response to a query from a prospective brother-in-law, near relation. he wrote in 1771. jefferson, at this point, was a member of the virginia house of burgesses. it is early and career of thomas jefferson as we know him. obviously, even then, all of the virginia connections and family members and so forth new that he was somebody for whom libraries and reading was very important. it is interesting that he wrote him this letter and there is a lot of discussion about reading and the value of libraries. he was trying to create a shelf and make him look like it educated virginia gentlemen. i think that might have been some of the motivation behind the request but it also went deeper. it was not just an instrumental

kind of what are the things we can put on the shelf? what would look good behind me in his room shelf? the sense of cultivation and kind of what does it mean to be an educated person. and, as we said, it is striking how much of jefferson's list was fiction. it was not all improving or nonfiction philosophy. there was a sense of fiction. don quixote, don jones, a lot of less familiar work. these are in the fringes of literary history. i think the other thing i would note is that this is not just a jefferson story. lots of members of the founding generation were deeply immersed in reading literature and thought of it as not a kind of guilty pleasure but something that was part of the intellectual process. this included women as well.

john and abigail adams were so steeped in this massive doorstop novel. throughout their letters for their entire lives, they would reprint people as characters. this in addition to them taking on pseudonyms from classics. none of this being outside of the protocol round. but being very much a part of the political realm is fascinating. mr. rosen: wonderful. we will try to keep track of these recommendations in the chat so folks can read them later. and, the vision of abigail and john as you say referring to themselves by classical students. bernadette, you have an inspiring article. as it happens, long ago i was

reading the sources that inspired benjamin franklin to create his famous list of 13 virtues. they included daniel defoe's essay on projects, which i have not heard before. as well as cotton mather's on doing good. and, the latitude and sermons of john tillotson. defoe was not unfamiliar to many of us. there was a manual about how to be ingenious. tell us about why defoe was so important to the founding generation to his views on written constitutionalism? how those views were inflected on robinson crusoe and others. prof. meyler: thanks so much for

having me. i think your experience to referencing an essay that you did not know before is one that most of us share. because defoe was unbelievably prolific. it turns out he wrote on most topics. if you think he did not write on something, that is probably the wrong view. defoe wrote in the early 18th century most of his famous works, he might be most known this year for his diary of a played year. that was particularly relevant to situation in covid. one noteworthy fact is that robinson crusoe was widely read in america. it was one of the foundational novels, and have a lot of implications. members of the founding generation read novels, partly as political guides.

defoe's robinson crusoe was certainly taken up by people like rousseau and others as furnishing, a guy holds a living to politics. defoe was not only running robinson crusoe. in fact he wrote an argument on behalf of religious centers in the carolinas that established some of the bases that we think of as part of written constitutionalism. the right that they had under the charter, and trying to hold the colony accountable to those rights. so, both in literary writings and in robinson crusoe part two, also his writings on the history of pirates which talk about radical constitutions as well as his political writings, defoe

presented a picture of the technology of writing as important for grounding. he really elaborated for the characteristics of written constitutionalism that we see later someone like chief justice marshall advocating. among those, writing was important for disseminating constitution. to all the people who would be part of it. writing allowed for people to put down what they wanted to endure. and make sure that could be referred back to the future. when it became an issue. also, documenting a social contract. robinson crusoe also is taking a book about founding quality. the contracts you have to enter

into. when you are creating a new society. constitutions were also taken to document the bases for a social contract. finally the idea of limiting legislative power. that could refer back to whether or not you have to limit the power of the legislature. in his various writings, he outlined all of these aspects of the technology of writing and how they could help to establish a constitution or a proto-constitution. i think those sets of writings were influential for the founding generation. mr. rosen: thank you so much for that. such a clear distillation of the principles. to learn that he didn't think it was crucial, that also a could

help maintain the social contract. such a great invitation to read the works of defoe. i was inspired, you can get his complete works. he has wonderful, futuristic works which imagine core virtues being played out in the future. catherine, and your riveting book, you set out to examine classic works of literature which involve and withdraw from civil society and some kind of return or reenact of the philosophy of the declaration. tell us what the basic ideals

were, with the natural rights theory was. and, as we have just heard some of those notions were in the air. literature and works of defoe and others. tell us some of the major works both before and during the founding. and immediately after where the theory of the declaration was reflected. prof. zuckert: i should, i'm not a historian and i am not prepared to answer that question pacifically. one of the things i think is notable about american political documents and their tradition is that it is very dependent in some ways on the european social contract theory. particularly john locke, also rousseau. the literature draws on the example of robinson crusoe. but, these sources are not

mentioned. so, we have up on the screen we the people. well, how's we the people defined? that is the function of the declaration of independence in the famous beginning it says when the course of human events it becomes necessary for people to dissolve which have connected them with another. and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station with the loss nature entitles them. we hold these truths. so, who are we the people? we are those who hold these truths to be self-evident. there are the famous declarations that all men are created equal. they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. governments are instituted among men, powers, etc..

does a draft authored by thomas jefferson, it was a committee. it was signed by individual people. but, it really is the definition of what is to be an american. based on this political philosophy. in the argument of my book is, beginning with the next generation, with the classic american authors like hemingway who had been on television recently, however was that they went back and re-examined the meaning of these principles. which are not in the constitution. to make a more perfect union. so, there is a sense the declaration is somehow in the middle but at least what i have found interesting about the novel is the treatments of these

principles. that their meaning is in question. one of the few things that the classic authors agree upon, they agree these are the principles. with they also agree about is americans at their time, and i would say in our time don't understand what these principles mean for going. that is the central problem of our politics. mr. rosen: well put. you provide -- you describe the different perceptions between and more hobbesian conception. and describe how that is reflected in novels throughout american history. take us from the founding era into the 19th century a bit. having introduced us to the fact that the founders thought that reading fiction was especially

important for civic participation. what were some of the central works that in the early 19th century became a vehicle, as you put it? not only for developing sentiments and individuals but also a marker of people's achievement. prof. lacroix: as he said, that last what is particularly important the early 19 entry because you have a subsequent generation of latter-day founders, early 19th century people between the war of 1812 and they civil war. it is very self-consciously so because a lot of the statement, writers, commentators, political participants grew up and were born during the revolution. chief justice marshall was still the chief justice for much of this period.

his younger colleague was justice joseph story who was born during the resolution -- the revolution. he was raised in massachusetts hearing the stories about the great thing his father and other family members had done. setting aside psychological consequences of what that might do, spending your childhood hearing about your father's efforts concealing candids in boston so the british could get them, there was a real sense of unfinished work. we see this even in young lincoln. lincoln gave a speech in springfield, illinois in 1837 that picks up on these ideas, this unfinished work because it reminds us they did not know the civil war was coming. they did not conceive of themselves as living before something but living after something. this anxiety about maintaining a legacy but also creating a legacy. they did not think we were implementing, liquidating, putting into practice a set plan.

they thought we had to figure out what this plan is and means. it was a creative project. literature is interesting here as well. because you have justices like marshall and story reading literature and novels, writing letters back and forth restoring gave eight series of public speeches at harvard. the phi beta kappa address, he talked about building america a natural -- a national culture. is it we have politics figured out, at least we have a great plan but what about culture? so, he talked about novels, and particularly singled out a number of novelist. marshall wrote and took him to task for mentioning a lot of authors but not one of his favorites. the author was jane austen. so, marshall said you named all of these other great writers,

lots of these novels were being written by women, authors, british women. marshall says what about austin? that this back-and-forth about jane austen. the final piece is part of figuring out with the founding was about and establishing american nationhood. his early 19th century period of writing as authors. it was a big moneymaker, marshall wrote a biography of george washington because he had access to good sources. also because it was a huge source of income to write one of these things that became a bestseller. you see lawyers and judges and people thinking about who can i write about? how can i state by claim, help build this legacy and make money doing it? patrick henry, much of what we know about patrick henry comes

from william's biography of patrick henry. he is writing letters all over virginia to try to get people to tell him what did he say in this one debate? that is while he was attorney general of the united states. a melding of worlds we would find very surprising today. mr. rosen: so fascinating and so interesting to hear about stories. the phi beta kappa address, you think about the emerson phi beta kappa address. while they were significant at that time, it is so powerful, the multivolume set that marshall wrote in washington. and, the fact that, as you say, the statesman injustices were also literary figures. you have story writing poetry. and of course john quincy adams we wake up every morning before swimming in the potomac and write classical poems.

professor myler, you have a powerful article between the states insiders of politics before the civil war which describes how the central question of whether we the people are united from the declaration or whether at the time of the declaration they consist of the people of several states. is reflected in the literature of the period. tell us about some of the books and novels that reflect the debate about who is a sovereign with people united states. prof. moyler: i would just put another that piece originated in a another program. so thank you for that as well. so, part of what i am talking about and that piece is how this

writing winds up becoming important after to follow. what happens is in the early 19th century, autograph collection becomes a big phenomenon. it takes over about the thoughts of the history of the declaration. people are trying to regret autographs. at the same time, there is a contest about how those signatures are going to be represented on printed versions of the declaration. in particular, if they were signers of the particular states or signers en masse. this becomes a flashpoint over

the question of whether the declaration is the product of individual states or the product of the american people as a whole. i would say one of the big functions of american literature in the periods after has been to call into question who are we the people? who is this people and who is included and who is not included in the people that are the people of that constitution four of the declaration. this is true in the late 19th century. a lot of interesting works on citizenship and literature in the late 19th century. and then it carries over into our contemporary literary scene. i would points to the ranking citizen which explicitly calls us to think about who is a citizen and deals with questions

of race, and racial division within america. and brings the forefront of this issue of who is included. also the home declaration by u.s. poet laureate tracy smith, this extremely interesting poem involving, it is an erasure poem which means you take the words of the text verbatim and you erase parts of it to make a different poem. that then turns into a poem about enslavement, and contemporary legacies of slavery. i think the issue of what the relations between membership and also the literal language as opposed to the spirit of the constitution is an issue throughout american literature as well. i would also go back to frederick douglass, who has a

very important speech about the constitution where he says that he is refusing to read that as a labor document because it never literally mentions the word slavery. so he uses the technology of plain reading or the approach of play reading and literalism as a way to insist on holding the american quality to a higher standard. an excess that slavery is a legitimized by the constitution. mr. rosen: so powerful and so many fronts. thanks for reminding us about douglas. would you like to read a brief passage? prof. moyler: sure, i would be happy to read it. he has sent officers to harass our people. he has plundered, ravage,

destroy the lives, taken away, abolish the most valuable in altering fundamentally the forms in every stage of these oppressions, we have petitioned for redress of the most humble terms. our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. we have reminded them of the circumstances of our immigration , taken captive on the high seas to bear. mr. rosen: so powerful. thank you for that. well. i love -- i would love you to give friends a sense of the arguments and your wonderful natural rights book and of course you spend a great amount of time discussing huck finn, the famous relationship between huck and jan and you talk about

how he has to turn to society to free his friend jim. you know him, the great scholar of the american peer is in. i reckon i have a light out for the territory. she is going to adopt me and civilize me. i can't stand it, i have been there before. what is the significance of that line and huck finn? telling us about the american idea. prof. zuckert: when i was listening to allison bernadette i thought about going in a different direction. the significance of sliding out of the territory is the american tradition of beginning anew. that is connected with the original settlers. this is, i think, material that

is examined and re-examined from the beginning of what would be a distinctively american literature. i would begin with cooper's pioneers. which is about the man who does not want to respect the law. he does not want to have regulations as to whether he could have the gun, he will slip according to the laws of nature. and, who has the right to oversee -- to get in his way. it turns out there are two different competitors. he thinks he owns the property. and he has the right to the animals that live on the property and the wood. the question of where did george shackleton get the property? he got it when the loyalists left after the american revolution.

to the americans really have the right to take this land? from the original settlers? then, the last of the mohicans. did these white settlers have the right to take the land from the people who were living there before the indigenous peoples? these are fundament of questions and they actually are not very easy to answer. cooper thought he was investigating the meaning of these fundamental american principles. and then, to turn to twain, twain wrote a criticism of the literary sins. it is hilarious to read. he described troopers reputation. he said this is totally unrealistic. and then, huck finn leaves

civilization why? it's uncomfortable. his father is a drunk and beats on him. he gets no protection, he has been taken in by a widow. he doesn't want to do that. he lights off down the river. what happens in the river, they get attacked because they have no protection. huck has contention will opinions. when he decides to defend jim and not turn and then, that is going against his consciousness. he decides famously that he will be dammed. yet, in a controversial end of that novel, they meet up with tom sawyer.

he knows he has been legally freed but he does not tell him and they go through all of these antics. the only thing that works to free jim is the law. huck can't live comfortably with the law. so, we have yes, the law of the will read jim. -- freeze jim. but huck, who loves jim, doesn't like civilization. as mark twain pointed out for the territory described in roughing it, that is a theme of ralph ellison. he writes about going to the territory of oklahoma. it is a frontier. not regulated. there is this theme persistently in american literature of how human beings, particularly americans, resist the law.

and how it justified the restraints the law places on you. mr. rosen: that is such a clear expression of enacting the philosophy of the west through literature. if you can't be satisfied with the existing social contract, you light out for territories and start again. that distills the essence of that teaching. because i know you are going to go in a different direction, i have question for all you, 20th century literature. you want to tee up a question or thought before ask -- prof. zuckert: the two things i had thought about before, redactors them, something that has come back in a movement towards classical education,

forming local character. does literature do it or doesn't it? cooper thought that is when he was trying to do. that is what twain makes fun of him for doing. most of the novelists after cooper don't try to be explicitly . hubert cannot profess and preach, but has to do both if it is going to live together. that is a challenge from the literary side. the other was, i think picking up on the comments, right after the revolution, beginning with cooper but also dramatically in the works of the thin hawthorne, start trying to come to terms

with the relations the past. the relation of americans to the british. also of course not just the british with the puritanical foundations of the united states. probably still quite a few high school students forced to suffer through the scarlet letter, a wonderful novel, i don't think it is a big hit very often. mr. rosen: agreed. those are wonderful thoughts. help me formula my question for all of you for this round. catherine just said post cooper american literatures, less self-consciously devoted to virtues as jefferson suggested. defined as a form of self-mastery. overcoming our unreasonable

emotions and passions. here is the question, we all know who admired his work, there was a great work which talks about how much of american literature takes the form of a preacher or a central figure denouncing the congregation for having fallen short of american ideals. reforming the ideals and summoning them back to once again be the shining seal. the broad question is do you see american literature in the 20th century as continuing that of didactic function of reaffirming the centrality and truth of the american ideal in the course of denouncing people for falling short of it? or, in the 20th century, does

the american literature is its didactic function? prof. lacroix: that is a great and rich question. one of the things i think about in the late 19th and early to mid 20th century, kind of literature and politics shift is this question of what people think literature ought to do. this comes up with academics and others think about the value of reading literature. something that is at the forefront of public discussion today. i think, yes, virtue installation was part of the process in the early period. the other part was this idea of building sympathy, and also the ability to understand others situation.

that almost necessarily tends towards lots of different stories being told. so i think that impulse was there early on. you think about adam smith talking about the impartial spectator, or theorist of the 20th century talking about literature and coffeehouse, a lot of that he meant literally and figuratively, ways people understand the experience of others. i would think that as the importance of context. that comment to me, seems like one of the big overarching teams of 20th century american literature. i don't think of it as division or fragmentation, i would think of it as multitudinous this or multiplicity, understanding that as a value in and of itself. to be a good fill in the blank citizen, lawyer, what have you

and screw to speak to a variety of audiences. it also gives to something deeper, this, when we think about legal interpretation, which others have mentioned, we are in this period were we are fascinated by contextualism. but there is also context. tax and isolation can be very misleading. we think we know in a phrase means because we can isolate it. i would say the context is very important. that is part of the broader 20th century story. enriching and hearing for more kinds of stories. mr. rosen: so fascinating. the notion of providing context for the text in a commonwealth sense is a wonderful set up for

my question, right now you are examining the history of the ancestry of the constitutionalism. the reference of focusing on both the city in the 20th century rather than morals maybe think of henry adams. who struck the famous antithesis between the unity represented by medieval faith and multiplicity represented by the dynamo. bernadette, answer the question as you see at best, you think the move towards multiplicity is a move against the daca schism? -- the dac this is -- deda cticism? prof. moyler: i would like to build on something that catherine mentioned, the

interesting timing of thinking about the past. the early republic. americans become interested in how to reconcile this pre- revolutionary past with their present. and, whether or not it is this incredible innovation or whether it harkens back to pre-constitutional moments. we see the same tendency of literature after the civil war where there is literature dealing with the antebellum period asking how much is change and how much hasn't. that is connected with my project on common-law originalism. part of what i'm suggesting is even though we have this implement it at the time of the founding, in fact a lot of the rights of the formerly british subjects were now americans

thought there were rights of presence of the commonwealth. they would understood the and how they would have express them within their own legal traditions, as well as according to the work of the british context. certainly working on a legal libraries. in terms of the different times of common-law that members of the founding generation would have read. it is being promulgated extensively in the late 19th century but they also read the writings of sir matthew hale from the 17th century which had a somewhat different conception of the common law embedded in it. but, in terms of this question about that back this is -- this

question, certainly, the trend in american literature that there is a little bit more. one of the problem narratives. i think this may relates to one of the questions i saw in the q&a, which is what did the founders think about shakespeare? certainly it was a big figure at the time of the founding, subsequently they were promoting and playing shakespeare. there was an egg exhibit a few years ago on shakespeare and the founding. but, one thing i think is powerful about shakespeare is that a lot of the plays don't actually resolve questions, they raise these questions that are then available for public debate. this does something similar, we have the question of who is in the right.

but, the text itself does not give us a clear answer. instead throws that question. so that most powerful, the america play, other works that pose problems for us. and then throw it back on the american public to resolve those questions. that is one of the most powerful aspects of literature, it invites those who are readers and those who are audience members to take the conversation out of the novel. and continue it themselves over dinner or drinks or in any other context. mr. rosen: beautifully put.

absolutely. encouraging us to relate the plays of shakespeare and literature to our own lives. literature can indeed teach us how to live. my college teacher talked about using literature to see what can be put to use. always picking up on the classical idea of literature as having a value of amusement and instruction. catherine, you introduce this fascinating thread, despite the new movement to resurrect a teaching of literature as a way of cultivating virtue, that vision is still relevant today. you think it is or not and why? prof. zuckert: i think it is

relevant in a complicate way. i think, as bernadette was just explaining, one of the ways literature, allison started with one of the ways literature teaches is extending your sense of empathy. introducing the reader and his or her burdens to the feelings and point of view of a different kind of person. that is what a talented author can do. but, in a sense you get empathy with a lot of different people that that is going to raise the question of which is best, which is just, etc.. the raising of problems that bernadette had just mentioned. i guess i think that in 20th century literature, what has happened, it is not just literature, it is everywhere.

educated people don't believe in the self-evident truths of the declaration of independence as being actually true. so, that creates a new kind of problem. what is the basis of our thought that human beings have a dignity? why? that you could be made into fertilizer, that is not very dignified. somehow we think that is wrong. or, is nature a source of rights? or is it not? is history, the tradition a source of rights? it is also the source of a lot of wrongs. i think, and hemingway, allison, faulkner who is not very popular now because he was too synthetic to the south. -- sympathetic to the south. what happens as principles of

the declaration are seen somehow as the basis of what america should be. we should recognize these rights. people should have right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. instead of thinking their are truths, they become apt -- aspirational goals. the question that is connected to as the ever increasing diversity of the american population. how you bring the stories or different cultures or different faith or agreeing on political principles? in that sense, i think the literature in a way, the literary authors solve before exploded into publix. i guess i'm struck also by the irony of the neglected groups

complained about showing up in literature and the very beginning. they show up as dramatizing the way in which everybody is not included. is not detected. as challenges, i am thinking of native americans, members of the tribes, women. hispanics. immigrants. they are not treated as being equal. well, why not? i would agree, that has been and continues to be one of the most important functions. mr. rosen: very powerful. i felt a pain when you said we prolonged or agreeing with the principles of the declaration. i wonder whether allison and bernadette agree that americans

no longer embrace the self-evident truth of the invest -- of the declaration or thing embrace them and believe they are being perfectly achieved? would you say was the truth for most of american literature. we have time for one more closing intervention from each of you. i am curious, we have project here the constitution called the guardrails of democracy, we ask our speakers to suggest ways of resurrecting some of the speed bumps, roadblocks, guarantees of democratic civil dialogue that been eroded by technology. i wonder whether you think that deep reading could be a resurrection of one of those guardrails. we'll kind of books would you recommend?

our friends in the chat are eager for reading recommendations. and what you think the role of literature is today in restoring american constitutionalism. or we will go in a different direction if you prefer. allison, to you. prof. lacroix: i would say, picking up where you left off, i do think deep reading. did reading of things set before the 20th or 21st century. when you come to a lot of these conversations as a historian and lawyer, i'm struck often by the sense that there are helpful ways of thinking about these questions. not lessons in the hat sense. but, the sense that there have been difficult problems, they are worth thinking about and

studying. again, not necessarily as lessons but maybe is what not to do. still broadening the temporal horizon. i think reading what we were reading about the kind of pre-1930's or earlier, whatever people find interesting. the other thing i will say on that, more and more i think reading about that period shows us what a wealth of things of literature there is from these earlier periods. many of the novels that they were reading were bestsellers in their time. maria edgeworth, francis bernie as closely contemporary or virtual contemporaries to jane austen. but, also more obscure books that people don't read as much anymore. there is the sense that windows american literature begin? we have mentioned so many

wonderful things. again, not because that was a great year and everything since has been a decline but more about the history that many more people were familiar with. the final thing i will say is i think something that has been gained is a questioning of the idea -- of what the idea of universality is. not that we need infinite fragmentation but the universality of this suppose it great american novel of the 20th century speaks to a pretty narrow slice. not that one has to read books to recognize oneself only black when the claim is made, this is a universal description treatment and everything else is niche, setting to one side the request or raising the generality, questions of moxie, what is the union.

that is welcome. mr. rosen: thank you for that. bernadette, final thoughts from you? prof. moyler: i do think deep reading is important and i want to go out on a limb and suggest another practice we can bring back from an earlier period of the founding era area reading aloud. there are an increasing number of groups online where people are reading plays out loud with each other. the practice of collective reasoning and collective discussion helps to foster conversation that we have sort of constitution reading groups but why not have play reading groups going side-by-side. and then open up the opportunity for a broader conversation about the issues within these wonderful materials.

mr. rosen: thank you for that. i have to share, last week, my great teacher broke my heart when he sent his own have lost reading deeply today. if that is the case, what is the hope the future of those who are less privileged and less advantaged? you get a superb practice, reading together, we can together grow in wisdom and ensure the focus that many of us have lost the habit of doing with our browsing and so forth. to give that practical suggestion. catherine the last word in this superb discussion goes to you. prof. zuckert: i will simply say this is not my forte but i think not just reading but reading in the context of the discussion with other people somehow if literary works raise questions. i also think maybe one of the

most encouraging developments is that poetry is becoming popular again. i was, when i was young, not particularly a fan. but it seems to be that his poem is inclusive, and is also such a celebration of democracy. his poetry is beautiful when it is read out loud. we probably should be reading more poetry out loud. mr. rosen: here, here. we will do that here the constitution center. we will our arts and continuing to convene wonderful discussions like this one which shed so much light and truth. we are also putting online a new founders library of great primary texts from american history, including the classical texts that inspired the founders, documents from the founding area.

give all inspired us to include the literature. and then we will reconvene and read it aloud. dear friends, thank for joining, taking an hour in the middle of the day to educate yourself and continue this learning with deep reading and discussion. and growing in wisdom. thank you for having inspired all of us to read. ♪ >> american history tv on c-span3. exploring the people and events that tell the american story. every weekend. tonight, at 8:00 eastern, on lectures in history, northeastern university professor william fowler. on early atlantic explanation --

exploration, christopher columbus, and the discovery of the caribbean. sunday at 4:00 eastern. the 1975 nasa film. who is out there with orson welles and carl sagan, exploring the possibility of extraterrestrial life and intelligent civilizations in the universe. sunday at 6 p.m. eastern on american artifacts, see a mock world war i trench and a reconstructed german bunker. and, sunday at 8 p.m. eastern, on the presidency, here how first lady's jacqueline kennedy, lady bird johnson and pat nixon worked to preserve the historic nature of the white house exploring the american story. watch american history tv this weekend on c-span3. >> american history tv on c-span3. every weekend, documenting

america's story. funding comes from these television companies and more, including a chi broadband. ♪ buckeye broadband along with these television companies supports american history tv on c-span3 is a public service. >> june is caribbean american heritage month area next, vincent around discusses his book, tacky's revolts. the story of an atlantic slave war. the book chronicles the 1760's slave revolt in jamaica, the largest caribbean slave rebellion until the haitian revolution three decades later. we recorded this event in february, 2020. in one hour and 15 minutes, president biden's remarks in

tulsa oklahoma where he traveled to commemorate the 100 anniversary of the you all i'm . i'm the president and ceo of the museum of the american revolution. it's wonderful to have so many familiar faces in the audience, and i'm pleased that we're also live streaming the program this evening and we'll be on book tv. so we will live on forever and ever at 3am when you can't sleep and i'll get a text from my father the following morning that says you're on television again. i'm just curious show of hands. i like to ask how many of you are visiting for the first time this evening to the museum wonderful. well, welcome. welcome to all of you you are surrounded by many of our members of our founding members of the museum