washington americas first ladies have been public figures. next on the presidency, betty boyd caroli talks about how mrs. washington and her successors have defined their unique position. she makes an interesting observational that many presidents actually married up, perhaps explaining why so many of their well educated and socially connected wives embrace their duties with confidence. the author of first ladies, the ever-changing rule from what the washington to millennia trump. the white house historical association provided this video. >> it's my pleasure to welcome betty caroli to history happy hour, she holds a masters degree in mass communication from the bergh school at the university of pennsylvania and a ph. d. in american civilization from nyu. scholar in italy, she's received scholarships and grants from the national endowment of the humanities, the franklin and e

roosevelt institute. the hoover presidential library, and the lbj foundation. before found joining the faculty at the university of new york she taught palermo and rome. betty is the author of a number of books including first ladies, the ever-changing rule, which we will be talking about tonight. ladybird and lyndon the hidden story of a marriage that made president. the roosevelt women, and inside the white house. she currently resides in new york city, and sometimes, although not, now in venice italy. >> welcome betty. >> thank you very. much happy to be here. >> i know our audience is looking forward to this conversation, so we're going to have a read back and forth and they were going to go to questions from our audience. at the beginning of our, book you discussed the rule of the early

first ladies and how they set important precedents. can you elaborate on those early first ladies? women such as martha washington, abigail adams, and dolley madison. how they influence the role. >> yes we know there was nothing in the constitution about what's president should do so the decisions made in the very beginning works important. and i think the most important one was the decision, i don't think any of the three women you named had anything to do with that, but the decision was made that the president's home would also be his office. so when george washington was inaugurated here in new york city within walking distance really of where i am sitting martha was not there. she was still in virginia. but she came up a couple of weeks later, and she did not come into a quiet reception. of course, then in 1789, to get across from new jersey who had to go -- even george washington bring his wife across. she arrived to a

13 gun salute, like a celebrity, and then within days she was giving a reception at the home, for people who were invited. so she became a very public figure at the very beginning. and people paid attention. i mean when you compare this to other countries now it's really remarkable. but people paid attention to what she, wore what kind of dessert she served at her receptions. and it got too much for one leader of the local newspaper who said that if we do not stop all of this attention, we will be reading items like this, they didn't call her first lady then. it was mrs. president or mrs. president's wife. we will be reading, her serenity who was much disposed in last week by a

pain in third joint of the 4th finger of her left hand. we are happy to announce is in recovery after catching a cold when she went out in east so period in her lately delivered to her by the russian ambassador as a present from the princess. when i was writing this book i read an item about the first lady. we talk about her clothes and did she have a little bruise on her face and what might be happening. so i think that his prediction has pretty much come true. we paid a lot of attention to the president's wife from the very beginning, and of course the women you named had to cooperate and that feeling. if martha washington had refused to entertain and said i don't feel well, i'll stay out of sight, i think our whole history would have been different. when the capital moved from new york to

philadelphia, it was differebt qyarters again the office of the president was his home and people were coming so he was found to be drawn into what was going on of the country. so she was a very public figure from the beginning. >> moving forward in american history, in the middle decades of the 19th century, sometimes presidents wives did not serve any public role in that capacity. can you talk more about why they made those decisions not to serve in that public role? and who they named in their police to serve as chief hostess? >> about 40 years after andrew jackson was elected in 1928 first ladies pretty much stay off-site except for the exceptions that we talk about. and part of the reason was that the country was really changing. you know until, then the president had all come from the east coast. their wives had a certain social level. with the new states coming in from the west, but what they called the, west that was ohio,

indiana, for them that was the west. these women were less prepared to face in washington because now the capital of course after 1800 the white house is the center, of the first ladies operation and they were less confident about what to wear what to serve, what to say, and rachel jackson, the wife of andrew jackson, she had such a rough time of, it you can't blame the others for saying i'm not going to have any more of that. of course she was never first lady. she died between the election, and the inauguration. and her husband said that the nasty things that they said about her is the reason that she died. they made fun of her university, her grammar. they need a lot of fun of what she looked like. but she was too fat. fat but not

fair. another comment was that she shows how far the skin can be stretched. so it was terrible. of course there were other comments about, her rumors about her first marriage, how it probably resulted in divorce. really nasty. things she died and she was followed by several women who just say i think my ankle hurts too much. i will just and my daughter down to meet people at this reception. so they really do stay -- of course the young women, could be excused. the gaffes -- if a 21-year-old makes a mistake about an official dinner or what food was served it wasn't so big a deal, it was a way out, it was a defense really. there are three notable exceptions in

this time period. sarah poke, mary todd, lincoln kerry, grant can you tell us about these ladies. >> they stand out wildly. most people can't mention a single presidents wife around, us those three everyone knows. up to say the reason i got interested in those, an editor suggested that i write about a -- the woman who became famous just because of the men that she they married but she said i wanted something more substantial and i started to read short bios of first ladies and i noticed a pattern emerged immediately. almost all of them married down. that is they married man from positions where their families were below them--many of the women were better educated than their partners. i wanted to see why the women married down. one of the things that comes through in these three cases by the way, these women had a certain confidence that i think came

partly from the realization that they had a certain class. they were in some ways superior to the men that they married. sarah polk had a very good education. she was in washington quite a while before her husband became president. she made contact. she didn't mind letting people know that she had opinions that she was quick to state them. mary lincoln of course was at the white house at a tragic time. the civil war. she had families betting on one side. her husband resided over the other side, it was very, very difficult for her. but she came to washington, she spent a lot on clothes, she really thought that she could be a social figure. it didn't turn out so well, but we certainly know about her. and of course julia grant also comes from a family

superior to her husband's family and had a certain confidence, even though people sometimes criticized her looks she did not care. it was a confidence. of course, the grants had a very attractive family so people latched on to their kids. they want to know what they were doing. how they were doing. so those three first ladies do stand out as exceptions. >> in the 20th century, there was the development of the office of the first lady, and gradually, first ladies started to hire staff and take on more of a public role. so when did this shift occur and what were some of the changes that took place? >> i would date it to theodore roosevelt in 1901. certainly, other things had been leading up to, it the development of media put more attention on president's wives. lucy hayes in the 19 seventies was the first presidents wife to -- train station to see her and so forth. but in 1981 theodore roosevelt moved in, the assassination of president mckinley, they really turned

the presidents into what historians call the modern presidency with a lot of attention from the media, taking a very strong position on matters of the world. putting the attention on washington instead of the state capitals. it was really a big change, and theodore roosevelt's wife, can be pointed to as instrumental in that. she heard a secretary. they all had secretaries but they were social, and they would hire a relative, a friend who helped them write letters. she did what we would call press secretary were because edith was smart enough to say that if she did not want the public to know that she wore the same dress twice she would tell the secretary to say it was green one night and who the next night, you see. so she begins managing the press. previous first ladies had more or less wanted to keep their kids out of sight. sometimes even moved out of the white

house. the cleveland's moved out of the white house for a while to get more privacy for their kids. but the roosevelts sort of said we are here. look at us. of course, the rambunctious children i mean they got so much attention. and of course, we must remember that it was during the roosevelt administration that the west wing was built. so if you look at pictures at the white house upstairs before 1900, for example in the period of mckinley you wonder how on that second floor they could have the family living, and also the office of the president. you know there were telephones around, there were jungle desks, it was impossible for the roosevelt family to move in there, and live among the telephones. so it was at the period that the west wing was built. the second wing of the white house, what we think

of now as the residential quarters is where you have to be shown that on the public tour. that developed. and roosevelts are very much a part of that. >> eleanor roosevelt is often considered one of the most influential first ladies in american history. how is eleanor's approached serving as first lady different from her predecessors? how did she shape the role of the modern first lady? >> eleanor roosevelt tops all lists of first ladies. whenever you survey historians, scientists, or if it's readers of good house keeping, everybody puts eleanor roosevelt at the top. of course we have to remember that she was in there longer than anybody else. much longer. full 12 years. she was beginning the fourth term when flight franklin died. but she approached the job. she just enlarge that considerably. i must also say she she was juror there during a time of great tragedy, great depression, world war ii, so she had

opportunities that perhaps other first ladies have not had. she testified before congress. congressional committees. she was invited more than once, she testified twice, that was the first time that anybody had done that. so she broke the mold. she showed the possibility of the job really. i think that's what you can say. she showed what a president's wife could do to add to his legacy but also on her own. >> one of the practice of a first lady having a public initiative begin? and which of those initiatives have been the most successful? which have received some pushback? >> i think from the beginning, presidents wives have often taken on some sort of charity or goodwill work. and orphanage in washington, or leader being sponsored girl scouts or something like. that ellen wilson for example, first wife of woodrow wilson was very active in getting housing reform. and washington d. c.. now eleanor roosevelt, was much

by the left then franklin. she spoke out on that. many wanted an anti lynching law in 19 thirties. franklin did not think he can get it through the senate. with the committees headed by southern senators. he refused to take a stand on it. but eleanor did. and somebody said, can't you make your wife shut up, and he said i can't do anything with it, and even she said franklin should i keep quiet on this issue, and he said no you go ahead and speak your mind. he said i can all say i can't do anything about it. but it was clever on his part, because i heard people say that, the leading activists said but she didn't vote for franklin in 1932, but she voted for him in 1936. not because of him but because of eleanor. so he was clever, he was letting her win people who

would not follow him necessarily. so why did she do, she investigated housing in appalachia, and work to get experimental communities homestead open. she wrote a column, no first lady ever had in my day column. she testified before congress, the congressional committees and she was invited more than once, and that was the first time anybody had done that. she showed the possibility in the job. i think that's what we can say. she showed why presidents white could do, and to his legacy but also on their own. >> when did the practice of a first lady, having a public initiative begin? which of those initiatives have been the most successful, and which ones have received some for some pushback? >> i think from the beginning, the president wives have often taken on some kind of charity

or goodwill work, looking at you not going to orphanage in washington, leader being a sponsor of girl scouts or something like that. the first wife of woodrow wilson, was active in getting housing reform in washington d.c.. but i think you can say the public initiative, as you call it started with ladybird johnson. with her beautification project. when the johnson's got into the white house she didn't start at the first year, the year that they served the remaining term of the kennedy administration. in other words the last year of the year after president kennedy was assassinated. she did not started. she said i don't know if we're going to be here for another four years, i will wait and see what happened. she did make great change the white house until she was sure they were going to be there another four years. but then she decided on a

project, and i think america knows it was a project it was beautification. and not just on outdoor parks, but removing junk yards besides the highways, it was very integral program. and every first lady since then, has had that it is very effective program she had. so many of the first ladies they asked today if your husband run for president what will you do? what will your project? some have been more successful than other i think ladybird johnson was very successful. nancy reagan, had a projects a foster grandparents project. it was not well received and she did not get good press. she was spending too much money, she was redoing the white house, and she was just spending too much money. her ratings were not very good, so she switched.

she switched to the just say no to drugs program. and her popularity ratings went up like that. so i think that was a lesson to the first ladies who followed, which is good to have something that people latch onto. and most people can name with the others were. the reception, who had the worst reception, i do riminton nancy reagan's foster grandparents were not good. i think that melania trump's reception was not too good. but i think that first ladies make different choices on how they put their projects forward, they're very competent and when i asked her office how many people worked for her know they

would have to give me an approximation because people were coming and going but also she had some full-time people, that she would borrow from agencies. people who worked on the beautification project, it came from apartment skiing from the department of the interior. so is a very competent staff that worked hard on the project. you look at the ones since then, first ladies after ladybird from pat nixon it was volunteer-ism. for carter it was mental health. you go down the list. some of them continue the projects as they want to the white house and some of them of course drop them. in general, those who did them well i think not only added to the legacy of their husbands, but they made a name for themselves. >> we have a lot of questions from the audience because first ladies is one of our favorite topics, we will go to some of these questions. the first question is from laura, and she

is asking from blue lake,. and she asks, which first lady in your opinion was the most ahead of her time? >> i would have to say eleanor roosevelt. for the reason that i just -- she experimented with so many things. the investigations, the traveling abroad. taking a stand opposed to her husband. i would think that she's most ahead of her time and we haven't really matched that since. >> from eugenia in arizona, she asks has any first lady actually really relished the job? >> oh dear, a lot of them hated it. a lot of them hated it. that's the first thing that comes to mind. jane pierce you know prayed her husband would lose. even eleanor roosevelt

didn't love it at all. i mean she was extremely unhappy to move into the white house. so who was happiest about it? who relished it? i can think of a single one. many of them say when they leave what they miss. they miss the perks of the white house, and the opportunity to meet people and to be part of what's going on in the world. so many of them talk about missing what whn they leave, but i can't, oh yes -- >> julia grant liked to be first lady. >> julia grant and helen taft. everyone says she got her husband to the white house because he was in line for an appointment to the supreme court under theodore roosevelt and helen got wind of that, she went over to meet the president and talked to him, after she, did the president went to him and said i can see why a

appointment to the supreme court is not what you want at this time. then of course went on to win the presidency. the story is helen rushed down from her seat in the capital, where he was being inaugurated, and got in the car because before then, the assistant always went back to the white house with the president and she made sure she was sitting next to the president. when they got there, they walk there and this is perhaps apocryphal and she said, i made you president, let's see what you do with that. unfortunately she had a stroke a couple months later and so much of the joy she would have found in the white house and fortunately she did not find, but yes, actually now that i think of it i can come up with some happy ones. >> from judy in washington d. c., she asks a very good question. when did the term first lady start?

>> the term first lady we still argue about. the first evidence i saw its use was in 1861 when somebody wrote about the wife of the confederacy, marina davis, someone said she was the first lady of our land, and our descriptions, other people have said it's probably used in letters but it emerges in the literature after lucy hayes, i mentioned she took a trip across the country. the first to travel across the country so she was becoming a national figure, and first lady comes into use. in the 1930s, it got capitalized. and now we are back to not capitalizing. of course, my theory is that soon it's going to go out of style entirely, and as soon as we have a male in the job we certainly can't call it the office of the first lady so i am predicting that they will

say something like east wing, the east wing to this or that. >> or first spouse, or first partner. >> other countries don't do it. why do we need? it and certainly, we don't need a title for them, especially the vice president. certainly second lady. >> so this segway is really great into our next question from george in new york city. he asks how do you think the role or perception will evolve for the eventual first gentlemen? will it be the same or will there be different responsibilities? >> it will change a bit i suppose. because we won't be able to say that the spouse of the president is a model for all american women or anything

like that. i think that was one of the complaints against rachael jackson, that she didn't deserve to stand at the head of society so in terms of rules for women certainly that will change. with the first lady doesn't presiding over the east wing, a lot of it is institutionalized, she oversees, she appoints the people, who deal with publicity, setting up photographs of the family. arranging of course dramatic dinners and seeing what drinks are served, as we just heard. so much of it could be handled very well by staff. betty ford said when she took over as first lady, rather suddenly, on the resignation of president nixon, she said that all you have to do is show up. everything else is done. certainly men would do most of that. and you think of the, going out and speaking for the president, which we tend to expect the spouse to do, certainly a man could do that as well as a woman. you think for spouse. >> first spouse or first

partner. you can also have a relationship that would be not a heterosexual relationship. >> exactly. why can't you just say the president and give the name of the person who's the spouse? people do remember names. >> a lot of changes potentially. christopher asks what do you think the most consequential first lady was in history aside eleanor roosevelt? so who would you go to after eleanor roosevelt? >> consequential is a loaded word, isn't. it in terms, i did the book on -- and lyndon johnson and i don't think that he would have been president without her. she had so many skills in terms of bringing people into the fold. he could make a few enemies. she was very good to keep everybody happy. she was extremely important in managing his moods. influential, consequential in that regard, i

mention of course helen taft, certainly consequential in getting her husband elected president, who made the biggest changes to the country? we go back to eleanor roosevelt even abigail adams in those very early days had consequences in terms of the political parties asserting themselves so consequential and really need to know consequential with him. >> the next question could help you out from sharon, she asks from your historical research, which first lady is seemed to influence her husband the most? >> influence you mean in terms of changing his mind? >> influencing in terms of what policies and proposals he pursued. >> certainly helen taft had

strong opinions. we give a lot of credit to eat it wilson, the second wave of woodrow wilson, she's often called you know, presidentess, because she took over after he had the stroke, but i don't think that she had that much influence on his views at all. she was very a political for one thing. she said she did not even know who was running in the election of 1912 when he was elected. so she's given a lot more credit than i think she deserves. people would pick her out. eleanor, influencing, as i said, she's much more balanced, in other words, her people often said that he would ask her for an opinion when he was on the other side,, she would state and then a day or two leaders say something against it that senate a lot more like her than he had sounded previously. so influential?

yes. as i mentioned, ladybird johnson. i'll have to think of others. >> the next question is from rhonda. it has to do with some of the public initiatives that we have talked about. she wants to know, is there an allocated budget for first ladies for their projects? how did they actually get things done that they wanted to promote or do? >> the first lady has a budget. i remember rosemary carter voted for a bigger budget than she actually got because it's always a little, there is some competition between the east wing and the west wing about with the east wing is paying its press secretary and its social secretary and those people. many of the first ladies have insisted that they be paid well. that the be paid

on the same level. so as i said, the budget is established by the administration. and some of them go outside of it. ladybird part people. some of them use a much smaller budget. you can see millennia trump has a very small staff, and likes it that way, evidently. so they do have a budget. the first one to actually be listed as a government employee that i know of, first member of a first lady staff to be listed as government employee was mamie eisenhower's secretary in the 1950 so you can see how quickly it grew. before even eleanor, people worked for her should secretary roosevelt, but it wasn't listed as a official government employee. >> a question from geraldine from connecticut. were you surprised about anything in your research for this book? >> oh yes. there were surprises all the time. what can i think

of as an example? you're reading along and you find something that probably can't go into the book. but it surprises you. what can i say? what's the most surprising thing? i was surprised at how influential ladybird was. in her case, she left a very full record. she left a diary, her printed diary, something like 800 paged white house diary. she that was the first person to do that. she was the first modern first lady to do that. taft had written a book about the white house. even julia grant back in the 18 seventies had written a book about being first lady. but it was not published for 100 years. so after ladybird johnson, every first lady except pat nixon who had her daughter to the job for her, every first lady has published a book on leaving the white house. we don't know

about the current first lady, if she will or not, but that has been the rule, that they've all been about leaving the white house. >> next question is from darren from florida. please comment on edith wilsons rule after president wilson had a stroke. >> that is what i was referring to earlier again, people think that petticoat government, that was the phrase, but she was running the government. and he was incapacitated. she didn't let anyone to see him, or have trusted staff members in to see him, but if you look at the things that did not get done, there was a major strike. there were problems with the port of people into the united states who did not agree with certain policies. she really functioned as more like a barrier to people who want to get near him. so if she had really been

-- if she had taken over government she would have acted in those cases where she did not. so i think it has been exaggerated. >> we have a number of questions from maureen in new jersey and many others want to know your thoughts on jackie kennedy, who's obviously a favorite of this program because of her role in founding the white house historical association. >> she did. that was important. she also made changes to the white house. her famous stories about when she first visited the white house, and eisenhower showed her around she had some not very nice things to say about how it was decorated and how it was furnished. so that was important. she was very young. 34 years old. one of the youngest first ladies and of course at a very tragic time, but her reading in general was

low, it's since been rising as the years go by, she's becoming more popular. she didn't have much time. she had two small children. she traveled a lot, on her own, she was absent a lot from the white house. people held that against her. people held against her the kind of renovation she did on the white house. which he called restoration. one criticism was that it was two t. so she certainly jackie kennedy was certainly an important style figure. i mean magazines around the world were named for her. she was world famous. french, but she did not really have much money to work with, it's often said that pat nixon brought in more authentic furniture to the white house, then jackie kennedy did but she had more time to do it, and she

had more funds to do it. so jackie kennedy was certainly a important style figure. i mean magazines around the world were named after her. she was world famous. her name became a common name for people to give to their kids. so she's one of our most interesting first ladies. that's true. but she tragically had a very short time. >> our last question this evening. we're going to put you on the spot, betty. if you could host a dinner party for any three first ladies living or deceased, who would you invite and why? >> i can't name any, i think we have five living first ladies. betty ford says the job diminishes but it never ends. if you say we have five first ladies living, i wouldn't want to name any of them because it wouldn't be fair. i probably wouldn't name any of the words i've written about a lot. ladybird johnson and roosevelt's because i think i know them a little bit. i would

go for the ones i don't. now that i really couldn't get to, grace coolidge for example in the 1920s, is one of the most fascinating. we don't really know. she had the reputation at the white house for being a frivolous, should the tragic death of her son, so that wasn't a frivolous time but in general she is pictured with raccoons and dogs, and wearing fashionable clothes. she doesn't seem to have an opinion on anything. she says she was never consulted on anything that mattered, but after she left the white house, she wrote poetry, she got involved in causes. i think that there was a lot more to her than we ever knew. i would just like to ask her what she was thinking about when she was holding those raccoons and posing for all of those silly pictures, when she could have been doing more. >> there's another person like that. she wasn't first lady

very long, mrs. garfield. her husband was assassinated very soon. but she, she was a very bright young women. went to the same college. she and her husband started out at the same college in ohio. they happen to speak on the same program and she and everyone else said that she was by far the better speaker. but then as he ascends in politics, she becomes more and more this silent figure, and she lived a long time after he died and we hear nothing more from her. i would just like to ask her why she did that. sarah polk is another one. as a mentioned before. a person with a lot of influence we don't have a lot of information on her. so i guess i would like to talk to the ones that i don't feel i know as well. that's terrific. thanks so much betty for such an engaging conversation. like i said, on one of history happy hours favor topics, which is first ladies. >> thank you.

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