michael wolff is with us, latest landslide, the final days of the trump presidency. michael wolff, welcome to washington journal. >> thank you for having me. >> was it always your plan to write about the final days of the trump presidency or did the situation between the election and the inauguration, january 6th, included drive your reasoning to write this book? >> yeah. i had no intention of writing a third book. i thought two was plenty but then january 6th happened and i

thought -- and i thought, how can i walk away from this story? this story has immense implications for the moment, for the future. .. one of the things that struck me about reading landslide in this period of time was the sense of chaos both around the election returns and the whole period of challenging the election. and of course january 6. that surprise surprise you at all? >> no. the underlying theme probably of the three books i've written about the trump

administration is the least chaos. i think maybe it deals even further than chaos. through the looking glass dysfunction of the trump white house has been an epic story. but having said that, the period after the election on november 3 became even more, even more out of control, even more disconnected from all standards, measures and functional reality. >> how do you approach rain the book on the president and terms of getting two sources of and including accounts. how are you able to make such good contacts with people and get such good information on

what was going on? >> i was speaking of a friend not long ago and i was bragging about the fact i had written this last book and my friend said you've had a lot of practice. so, i think that is the answer. i have been doing this through three books. i've come to know probably nearly everyone in the trump succession of orbits because most of the people in the trump administration have cycled in and cycled out. but for better or worse i have become eight trump a doorkeeper. i won't give away the end of the book.

you do include an interview with the president. you have written critical books about former president trump and the end of the book concludes with your visit to mar-a-lago. did that surprise you getting invited to speak to the president about this particular book about landslide? >> in the world beyond surprise. after the came out the president threatened to sue me, tried everything to stop the book declared he'd never met me although i have known him for 20 years. and went on many twitter rants about how low and dishonest i was. i guess that's it for that relationship. but when i started to watch read landslide was talking to

many people around the president wanted them went to him and said hey i was writing a third book. they wrote it is kind of a warning to the president or the former president. he said oh that guy gets ratings let's see him. and then within a day i had been invited down to mar-a-lago to interview that turned out to be to go for quite a number of hours. and then have dinner with the former president and the former first lady. >> michael wolf is our guest here on "washington journal" his latest book landslide the final days of the trump presidency. we welcome your calls and comments the lines for dammit 202 district 202-748-8001. emperor independents and others (202)748-8002.

the book covers just before the election through the inauguration and as michael pointed a conversation with the former president himself at mar-a-lago. let me take you back to the preparation for the debates. in the book you write about that preparation chris christie was playing joe biden and where the debate perhaps he chris christie the former new jersey governor on-again off-again trump ally was participating in the mock debate which was quickly digressing into the monologues. i think of calling it off without much prep. the election too much virus but you can't do that, man, said christie u.s. attorney half chuckling, you do know you can't declare martial law christie followed up you do know that right? it was alarming and awkward he might not. trumps preposterous nest optic about the possibility of his dead seriousness to create a moment which embarrassment and crisis seemed indistinguishable. it was donald trump in your

view talking off the top of his head are being semi- serious there? >> donald trump is always talking off the top of his head. there is never any preparation. there appears to be any pre-thought or consideration that he is gone through for whatever he has said. so there is not this or that. it's not a situation unless you concise toff talking off his head now. when he said it is with some seriousness. because it is all just blah blah endless, endless blob law. you cannot ever finally say is this serious? does he really mean this? is he going to even remember this?

>> part of the book you write about the stories would be told in confidence knowing that information would be leaked immediately. in your view do you think donald trump was okay with information, certain information being leaked to the press it during his presidency? >> if he is leaking it or he is fine with it, it became policy essentially. many of the people around him think this is an important point, many of the people around him basically saw their job as frustrating that the president might want to do. that is a large statement. the president of the united states has a staff.

they are supposed to be there too implement the things he wants to have done. his staff, the trump staff ever greater inversion of reality saw his job is exactly the opposite. trump would say weird stuff. you had to distract him from this or slow walk whatever the things he was suggesting. or you had to leak it to the press but always with the main intention of getting in the way of the mostly ridiculous things the president might want to do. >> chief among those frustrated were jared kushner

and ivanka cut trump the president's daughter, did their status at all changed during the period you're right about from the election through the inauguration? did their influence with the president change? >> their influence has always remained basically stable because they understood the limits of their influence. more than any people in the white house they could have influence. but that always came up against the barrier of a president who does not listen to anyone, be cannot really be reasoned in any reasonable sense. loses the thread of the conversation in short order.

it all goes to say you can influence him about things he did not care about. or things he was not going to remember. there is something that he wanted like the election when you had to steer clear. gerrit and ivanka most certainly by a week be on the election of new they could have no effect until absent themselves from any involvement with the election challenge for. >> one of the things you write in particular about that, you right after charlottesville something of a dress rehearsal for the capitol onslaught, dirt and ivanka head urged conciliatory kindly gently

approach to the president. but a furious trump broken the bonds of them and made because with each charlottesville attacker. find people on both sides. this was now the vast multiple of charlottesville or at least it was starting to sink in that this is where they were. michael wolf from the white house press briefing room and the president speaking that, he made the video late in the day on january 6 that he made and released who was responsible for getting recorded and getting out to the public. >> i think there are two important levels here. the first thing the decision was made or the advice was strongly suggested that he not make a live statement. so the press was in fact clamoring for him to say something to come out to somehow deal with this violence as normally you might

think a president would. but the advisors around him and that included ivanka, mark meadows, a few other people were in the white house, were very clear that he should not make a live statement because it was very possible that the same thing that happened to trump would happen here. he would veer toward support of the protesters. so instead they decided to make a video. and again ivanka was involved in this and mark meadows, and several other people. it is notable how few people there were however in the white house at this point on january 6. i tried to count how many and

you are really talking about a relative handful of people, mostly everyone had gotten out. quick with mark meadows conduct covid shortly after the election that sort of literally open the door to all sorts of influence on the former president. how big of a moment was that? how big of a loss to have his chief of staff at that point down with kobe for several weeks? >> it's one of the things it wasn't just meadows but among the people around the president who had worked, this the first impeachment case of a meadows getting in any way the president always shopping for someone to tell him exactly what he wanted to hear.

that allowed rudy giuliani to come back into the white house. >> we have michael woke with us (202)748-8000 for democrats 202-748-8001 for democrats, independents 8002 but we do have calls waiting we do have a question for you on text, jimbo from bakersfield asked this, the sum of all of my greatest fears about the midterm elections of 2020 and think he 2022 is known will respect results. irrespective of political party based on your unique knowledge and experience i was wondering if thought that any legitimacy could that happen? >> i think very much. i think that is what the set up is. at the same time the former

president is absolutely convinced he will be the determining factor in many, many, many races and they will capture and retake the house. who's the confusing thing if they win the president say oh yes the election system certainly works. >> was hear from callers joe and stanford, connecticut republican line go ahead. >> good morning how are you? >> hybrid. >> i just saw the exit from

your book where you stated about charlottesville. as one if you saw the whole video we condense everybody so why didn't she put the whole thing in there instead of people on both sides? this man has been called a racist over a fallacy and you know that. but you keep going with the same thing. have a great day mr. wolf. >> thanks. brenda in indiana go ahead. >> caller: i was wondering whether any whisperings or rumors in the white house that donald trump might issue a blanket pardon to all the people who were at the capitol on january 6?

it is my understanding that jimmy carter issued a blanket pardon to all of the draft dodgers that avoided the vietnam war. so it seems as though a blanket pardon is possible. did trump ever consider blanket pardoning all of his support of soldiers or did he just leave them on the battlefield? thank you. >> if so i don't know that that happened. next next in warrensburg missouri, go ahead. >> caller: and what if use of the video were all the people were marching up to the capitol. trump always terrorists and terrorism is all i have already. bye.

speaking of just missing the question there. >> host: are color left. let's talk about mike pence's role on that january 6 and the former president's view of mike pence since then. where in your estimation is his relationship with the former president? >> at this point i would say in the nonexistence. the former president became convinced that mike pence had the power to reverse the electoral vote. and he would in fact use that power on the president's behalf. and essentially install the president for a second term on january 20. this was absurd and preposterous. mike pence had told him again

and again and again this could not happen would not happen. but the president continue to believe that. when it did not happen when mike pence did not he regarded this as a profound betrayal. although there has been some minor effort to put a better face on this unknown the president continues to be deeply resentful for the vice president. >> of course the attack on the u.s. capitol led to the second impeachment of donald trump and the legal effort in the book. you say trump was ranting to his legal team that he did not want the trial going down this way. technicalities, free speech, jurisdiction baloney. he wanted his defense to be

the election was stolen, it was stolen. everybody knew it was stolen misses a chance to let the case. indeed the former president said he made the case on the floor. everybody associate with the case at no doubt we get the former president convicted bird once more everyone was trying to save trump from him self. never a promising proposition. how close to a reality did that come the president wanting this line of defense the stolen election line is part of his legal team's argument? >> you know, the second impeachment was such a comedy such a collection of the gang that could not shoot straight. such a disorganized mess not sure you could say there was anything that was close to

happening because what happened ultimately was completely random. the lawyers did not know their clients. they did not know the president. they were barely speaking to him. even on the phone they did not know the case. you had various lawyers quitting in the middle of this. understand your defending the president, the former president of the united states before the united states senate prosecuted by the united states congress. he was prepared as if he was going into corporate. >> let's hear from sarah ness with michael wolf. sarah is in sterling, virginia go-ahead break.

>> good morning mr. wolf. i'm wondering, not a psychiatrist, but it's a mr. trump had a narcissistic personality. and yet he got when he demanded loyalty from not only people in congress but his followers and everything. did it ever dawn on some of the people that he was a hindrance of a danger to our democracy? did they ever question his mental ability to even lead the united states? and did that ever come up with any discussions you had with his followers? thank you. >> without any intention at hyperbole here. those with donald trump knows there's something wrong with

him. he's not like you and i. his gears don't work. call it what you will. there is something crazy about donald trump. and i think in terms of the dangers here over the coat course of four years came to understand that donald trump had no follow-through. he really had no policy goals beyond just getting as much attention for himself as he possibly could get. for better or worse certainly the republicans many of the

republicans decided they cannot live with this. they could accomplish their goals because donald trump himself really had it. he had no goals of his own. that would come pretty close to the devil's bargain with the former president. >> i am struck about by the contradiction between donald trump's well-known reputation as a great fundraiser for candidates and the reporting of your book and others elsewhere by late summer the campaign had a 200 million-dollar budget gap. i think you're right campaign budget wasn't freefall. explain that contradiction. >> i think trump throughout donald trump's career he has

looked at the top line and ignored the bottom line. that is to say he has gone around with $10 million without accounting for the fact that most points he owes as much is $10 billion. everyone at the campaign knew there was one measure which is how much money have they raise? how much money came into the door? he was never looking at how much it costs them how much it costs that money. they were spending vastly more than they should have to attract what was overwhelmingly online donors. at that point in the summer

when the first campaign manager was fired any new campaign manager came in they looked at the budget incident we are $200 million in the hole here. and in fact they went into the last weeks of the campaign being outspent by the challenger nearly three -- one. >> let's hear from lee and west olive, michigan. the republican line. >> caller: how can you say that donald trump is crazy and had no plan? this is just another hit job. donald trump's policies were working. unemployment was at all-time low. he rebuilt the military, trade deals with china. he did not have any plans or

policies had the best policies. at the best policies as countries ever seen. it was working you guys just ignored it. people need to wake up quit hating on the man the best president we've ever had the biggest movement millions and millions of followers is calling everyone >>. >> host: any response? >> guest: my only responses this is a third book i have written. i've spoken to everyone around the president including the president at great length. i am just reflecting the experience that the people around him have had. the experience i have had spending a great deal of time with these people. and i would say that the

policies if you like the former president policy they largely came from sources other than the president himself was not concerned with the policy have very little interest in politics per se. it was a manager in the executive branch. who was a man who exists in the moment. holy obsessed with the attention he would get from the public or from his fan base, his audience. this is my experience.

that is what i bring to the book that i write. this is what i supper. >> you read about the multiples of candidates potential candidates coming to mar-a-lago to seek his endorsements. what about donald trump himself? what is your feeling on him running for president 2024? >> think it is a subject very much on his mind at this moment. >> will hear from bill in riverside, california go-ahead. >> good morning. i agree with your last caller seems this wolf guy is obsessed with donald trump. >> bill you are breaking up. call back again and see if we can get a clear connection with you. we will go to maine and on the democrat side, go ahead. >> hi thank you.

i would like to suggest trump is not the problem. the republican party was trump before trump and sadly it will be trump after trump. i think it goes back to gingrich and reed. gingrich rep and while web denies in an promoting religion because you have in the trump administration you had all of these people to spin trump's worst fantasies into even worse on the ground. one of the reasons i think that's popular it was all about this appealing language like pro-life, trickle down, all of these rhetorical reflect the realities. that provision is not just practices to debate we need to

have for the government. >> okay and, mr. wolf? i don't disagree with the caller. i would however say donald trump prevents a further separate problem as one might have at the republican party. the separate problem to my mind is he is crazy somehow we managed to elect the president who operate in an altogether separate reality. not just from democrats but often from republicans. and i'm not sure we have quite come to grips with the meaning of this.

of how a crazy man could become the president of the united states. exercise such a hole over so many people there public imparted. >> in a day or to respond to others on the list with that when in pennsylvania by 117,000 votes in michigan by 147 the activists specializing in sting video start to circulate a video of u.s. postal insider all debunked by federal investigators the cpac moderator started to tweet a rumor in arizona that a large number trump. valves are invalidated because of the use of straw markers this was also untrue.

you write in some sense the trump campaign had no idea what was going on. the campaign script on number structure for reporting, overall information management system was chaotic as any in recent presidential history. what's more this allowed a large range of outside and unvented views in the mix among the many that found a direct trump gave privacy to them. one of those michael wolf was rudy giuliani longtime associate of the president. highly coming to postelection. in the white house? >> i think that bewildered a lot of people around the president. for one thing they were always trying to keep them out. that was one of the priorities of the trump white house the people who worked for the president. they did not trust him for a

full array of reasons. not among them is drinking incredible disorganization. the fact he would say anything he wanted to hear the desperation to do anything to be back in the spotlight. many people blamed rudy giuliani for most of the terrible things including the impeachment of the president. so there was a real guard against guard posted to keep rudy out.

after that had become clear to everyone around the president election was on tuesday, but friday it was clear to everyone. by the end of the day it was only rudy he was willing to say no mr. president you actually won the election. and they have just stolen it from you. that is how rudy largely ate drunken rudy came back into the white house for a. >> what is the relationship between rudy giuliani and donald trump today? >> they do not speak. rudy is not allowed to call the president. this has happened multiple

times over the last four years. rudy is allowed in, makes a mess and is pushed back out. and also rudy once money from the president. and so no matter who you are, how loyal you have been, how much in your debt the president actually might be, once you start demanding he pay you then his mood changes. >> let's go to mulberry tennessee independent line. >> i would like to say yes. i would like to say i agree with mr. wolf. i have a comment. i would like to say donald trump started out his presidency saying mexico would pay for the wall. he was wrong about that. and so then he said he's going

to tax mexican products and he was wrong about that. so he switched to healthcare and said he would repeal or replace obamacare. and he was wrong and wrong about that. then he said he would balance the budget. and possibly pay it off, seriously wrong again. he said he would fix the trade deficit it is greater than ever and he was wrong about that. he said it would go away cinnabon was born in africa he said obama did not have a birth certificate everything a guy has ever said was wrong. each sanctions, the trade were, is wrong. thank you.

>> i growth everything the caller has pointed out. but i think you have to understand the greater context here. the president is always just talking. the president will say anything. in a way i am tempted to say you can't really hold the president accountable for the wrong things he says because he says whatever comes into his head. there is no thought there. there is no consideration. there is no analysis. we insert in the everyone around him is subjected to the

sound of his own voice. >> host: you mentioned before he was not interested in policy. without a trace of his throughout his career? or he was not just interested in political policy itself? >> i think both of those things. i think his career was not in the political policy world for there be no reason for him to be particularly interested in policy. after all, he basically said two jobs. he was in the real estate business and a television actor. to suppose he would arrive in the white house and arriving in the white house was when the great historical flukes possibly of all time, to then discover interest in policy and acknowledge that policy.

he has no particular knowledge about the workings of government or the purpose of government. or the craft of managing to think he would as well beyond what one would expect next up is sarah and cold city indiana. [inaudible] >> caller: hello. when sarah michie mute your volume acquired with your comments otherwise you will feedback. >> hello, i get so tickled it all you people that writes books about trump and all that part i don't know what's evaporative nothing else to

write about. outside this i'm 67 years old, donald trump is a best president we ever had. for all the people out there to be bad mouthing him and set that shows right there they don't have anything better to say. look at mr. biden. didn't come out hardly at all. you think we're that >> people? i'm on. mr. biden has alzheimer's you are calling it trump not his right mind? >> host: you are the collars saying press now president biden was in the basement. that surprise the trump campaign. we are frustrated by the biden strategy correct? >> the whole campaign is reflecting i hear the views of

the people inside the campaign with the catastrophe. probably one of the worst run campaigns and presidential history. not only from the money standpoint, and that was a vast problem, but from the refusal of the candidate to take the most obvious advice, to tailor his campaign to view the kinds of things that would have made a meaningful difference. the posters came to him at one point and said these are his pollsters. a few were just a little more positive about masks your base support the wearing of masks, mask wearing, has upwards of a

70% approval rating among your base. you will make a substantial difference if you merely don't attack mask wearing and mask wearers. if you refuse to do that. similarly when his pollsters came to him and said if you oppose mail-in voting, you do not even have to accept it just oppose it a little less militantly. to say quite close to winning this race on those two points and continues to believe if he had only done that in fact.

>> who he thanks stole the election are rigged the election? >> i went to him and said i said okay if you believe this election was stolen, stealing an election in this country has got to be one of the greatest conspiracies we might ever have experienced. this requires planning on a national and local level. it's a massive job. so who did it? who coordinated? who sold it? does he know who stole the election but would not tell me. he said he would tell me in

the future but. >> he said he would tell you the future? >> yes. >> there could be a fourth book, michael wolf? >> guest: yes. i hope not, but it is donald trump. >> vicki is in michigan next up on the democrat line, go ahead. >> caller: thank you for having me. we went make sheet mutual volume they think ahead with your comment. >> caller: hi thank you for have me on your show. i wanted to say thank you to mr. wolf for being honest putting this out there being honest and my statement would be for all of the people who follow trump and our approach numbers do your due diligence. he defeated you not like what mr. wolf is saying then check the facts out. research it and do your stuff to not be a follower. right now we need to be united.

president trump that you guys all love is crazy, mr. wolf is correct. he is very dangerous please do your due diligence and check your facts mr. wolf is correct. that is all i have to say i want to thank mr. wolf. i will be reading your book and being a follower, think usurper. >> thank you. stability from jean in phoenix, arizona. go ahead jean. >> good morning. two main items. first c-span files, have people go to eight defender 2020, look under senate hearing committee of all things is under homeland security. in the topic is going to be an

hydroxyquinoline. that is one of the items that i believe this book is going to attack. the second thing having to do with the election i think he miscoded from his book, wolf who is a liar. when an audit that went for months the duration went for months having to do with mail in ballots, are you ready for this? biden received 74000 more votes were mailed out the me rephrase that her said that a different way. they mailed out xm of mail in ballots. they received 74000 more ballots for biden them were mailed out. >> michael will forgive your chance to respond with the dig

color did call you a liar think it's fair for you to respond to that. >> guest: i have no response. the caller will think what he wants to think. steve went to sam to crystal springs, mississippi. sam is on the republican line go ahead. >> caller: i'm sitting here looking at the sky, he looks like a total joke. stuart, you can call in and agree or disagree with our guest. but do not call into insult the looks or the background of our guests. that is beyond the realm of civilized conversation. we'll go to market in fort lauderdale, florida good morning. >> hello. as always thank you especially happy to be able to get through to mr. wolf. hello? >> host: you are on the air. >> mr. wolf, a moment ago you stated something of a critical critical thing. that is who stole the election

paid what in the world? how would someone fill a hole in national election broken down into states, broken down into counties, broken down into cities. no one ever really can point that out, outside of trump saying he's going to say something in the future. that being said hope you keep writing and i hope you keep following. i think your next book should be about how people taking trump is him down into the county level and the people have been calling how they've talked in practically spinning in the one guy who spoke coherently he just reiterated the talking points of how successful trump was which were out late lies. we are on the cusp right now of something major with testing the votes in several states were these attempts at

audits and does not bode well for the future. if the democrats can't get their act together right now the voting rights act somehow they are not going to stop the takeover from these kooks. i've said my piece and look forward to your response. >> michael wolf. i lord the personally agree with the caller. i'd like to restrict what i talk about and what i write about too actually what i have directly seen. and certainly the fight over voting access in this country is a large one and a real one.

my concern however has been with getting as close to donald trump as i possibly can in trying to understand who this man is. and what makes him tick. and to understand what i would have to conclude is an incredibly peculiar if not twisted psyche. that is my specialty. the campaign for voting rights and i also agree it's extremely important issue bird stuart yearbook landslide ends with an epilogue a visit to mar-a-lago and a conversation with the former president. in that epilogue you write in a sense trump is rick and

rick's café americana in casablanca. rick without so much conscious and heart the palm beach it seems to believe in his heart if not his conscience. maybe it's more akin to jack dempsey's bar in times square. sitting on his barstool perch are going bigger he is sinatra and mar-a-lago as a sands hotel in vegas. do you think he's happy in that role? >> i do. donald trump not really meaningfully changed from the donald trump and trump tower to the donald trump in the white house to the donald trump and mar-a-lago. he is the same person. he conducts himself in the same way. the presidency really did not alter how he feels his day for

changed his focus. one of the things that i think is often said is the residency changes whoever occupies the office. i don't think that is been true about donald trump he has remained singularly donald trump. it's another curious point is that he does not have to be the president to be donald trump. that is also a dangerous point. it is not donald trump it's not president donald trump who has enthralled so much of the country. it is donald trump whatever that character is. whatever role that actor which

is what he is in many respects is played very. >> a couple more calls will go to shirley and north carolina good morning. >> good morning. >> caller: i do not tnk donald trump is crazy but he might be narcissistic. but, the biden white house. >> can i -- make is it possible i could interrupt you before you ask your question just to make an observation? >> caller: go ahead. >> guest: i would just say this i appreciate this because my in-laws are supporters of donald trump. they say the same thing to me. donald trump isn't crazy. and i say to them, you know i am the only person you know who's actually met donald

trump. i have spent in a normal amount of time with him. so it is perfectly, obviously your right to decide this. but i'm always curious on what basis you and my in-laws can say with such certainty that have such faith in donald trump fitness. >> caller: okay. when do you think the doctors are going to come in and declare biden with dementia? stuart will go to max in oklahoma. max is on the independent line, go ahead. >> caller: thanks for taking my call. i find this guest rich. he is really spotlighting the academic disingenuous type of

behavior. they love to dislike this guy. i'm not going to use the terms like joel, or liar, it's rich to hear someone take over those terms when his book is about a person being clinically unfit to hold the office. that he only one because people were obsessed with him. all the news anchors and editorial boards cannot get enough of this guy coming down the escalator from day one. i would never vote for the guy but he was on tv giving free airtime for the entire election. he did not have to pay for a single bit of press because people like mr. wolf are completely infatuated with him. you need to step back and look at what you are creating for every action there's an opposite and equal reaction by. >> michael wolf some final thoughts? >> guest: i would encourage

the caller to read my book. i think you get, he will come away with a different understanding of what happened here with the nature of one of the strangest historical moments in the history of this country bird. >> we appreciate you spending the hour with us, michael