>> thank you for joining me for today's program, black freedom was alaina roberts printed library supports teaching and learning and humanities our founding in 1987, very dedicated to deepening our collective understanding of ourselves and of the world around us. connect with our collection in the newberry's reading room in the xmas and gallery program spaces classrooms and online digital resources. submit a digital reopening our doors to readers and visitors and you can visit our website newberry .org make an appointment to do research in the reading room or you can stop by the library without an appointment tuesday through saturday to visit our call. our rosenberg bookshop is open wednesday through saturday, and you can get and visit the website at newberry .org and to learn about our current exhibitions in public program series about the age of revolution across the americas that late 18th and early 19th centuries next mission

will be open until i'm sorry it is july 24th in today's program is one example of the newberry's library commitment to public engagement and intellectual engagement. better communities of scholars, students and the public to discuss ideas that matter in our world today essential to newberry's mission. also committed to contributing to better understanding of history in order to promote equity and understanding. as with that obligation we would like to begin today's program with a statement about the newberry's history of the land on which the city of chicago resides. located near the several waterways, and the base library since i landed that intersects with the upper original homelands of several tribal nations the council the pottawatomie and of nations. the inland confederacy the. and nation and others nations. in the region of north east illinois home predict and the

indigenous people live in a serious all right their traditional teachings in my face and today, chicago is home to the largest urban indigenous community the united states. there remains an apartment lease for indigenous people of the caught chicago institution, the possibility to acknowledge the historical context and build mystical relationships with the tribal nations onto the lands they are situated. you'll have the opportunity to enter russians on zoom are in the comment section if you're joining us on facebook or youtube. and as time permits our speakers will respond to questions. and as my pleasure to introduce today's speaker, doctor alaina roberts it assistant professor of history at the university of pittsburgh she focuses on the intersection of african-americans and native american histories and 19th century to the modern day particular attention to identity colonialism and and tight black and in addition to "i've been here all the while - black freedom on native land,", was published by the university of pennsylvania press in 2021, dr.

alaina roberts has appeared in the washington post, the civil war era in the historic orderly. at this point we have things over to dr. alaina roberts. alaina: hello and i'm so happy to be here virtually to share the book with you all and thank you who ran the planning for this program like a well oiled machine so i want to introduce myself by saying that all the review i do as a historian of professors connected to my family. people who identify themselves as african-americans i come from people who were enslaved for generations. but in my father's side, our ancestors were not owned by white people, we were owned by native americans in the 1830s, the home there and he numbers when journey as we know making their way to oklahoma which was then known as indian territory. and during the civil war the

confederacy and the confederacy lost the united government forced by owners with other made in native american hunters just freed their slaves and provide them with land. and so it about a minute, i just reframed how people think about slavery in the civil war and the reconstruction. in all of these events that are important to the country's history were different for my family because they were with indian nations not within the united states and retelling reshaping this history is a core of my book. "i've been here all the while - black freedom on native land," in one of the key thing so i book is it means that native americans adopted slavery in first-place taking on ideas about race that we use only usually for black people and another thing, it is how anticipation some african-americans took on negative and harmful thoughts about native americans as they relate to the blocks. so this evening i'm going to give you an overview of history

and talk to you about some of the negative interactions between black in native americans and the past and can we work together as allies today. so let's start with the native americans began to own black people as slaves. in the late 17 hundreds and early 18 hundreds, wider market politicians encourage native americans particular way of the eastern and southeast two aspects of the american culture which language clothing and political structures. arguing this was civilized and this may be familiar to some of you. for example henry the secretary of war, and president george washington advocated what we call a policy assimilation because they believe they were more like white they would be willing to give up majority of the land this ideal world then it means that they then use the reduced land like white americans and engage in agriculture and use and is evaluating their communal land ownership. and slavery became integral to

one-of-a-kind select entrance and also they encourage the native americans to meet slaveholders name for the height of the economic success predict and those with it. all indian tribes took on various facets of american culture. and ignore those for example christian religion and or two things most people in the nation. [inaudible]. landowners and my family, they did not embrace is until maybe the earliest 20 centuries of these people in this time are picking and choosing what they're interested in and what they care about. but, many of the most influential members of five indian nations did enslaved black people like my family members. literally five tribes. seminal and turkey and others pretty did you probably heard of these tribes because of their

covid-19 vaccinations efforts. and so in addition to slavery with these five tribes also do things like newspapers the model of european-american newspapers and create government structure similar to the united states so these are two things working really alongside each other, native american governors as well as other governors. and for these reasons because of these choose to assimilate in various ways, white americans began calling them five civilized tribes which americans now refer to them as five tribes because five celebs tribes is complex and now along with the slaveowning development in these tribes some had the idea that the people were inferior and wild just like in the united states the majority of people do not own slaves, the ending the lisa did, was it created a

culture and economy the highly values slavery and slave owners. and then in the 1830s, an event or process came alive with all of the slaveholding tribes as well as the black people who lived among them and that's integral so since contact the british add reconcile the fact that they wanted the native american land with the reality that they didn't have the manpower the resources to just take my force, that's of the treaties and agreements with native people for partial land or control of various regions. during the colonial period and people europeans negotiated the settlement on relatively equal grounds often with native american people have more power and influence in these relationships using measures as well as war and violence. but after the revolutionary war of course the white encroachment on native american land is increased as some sought

resources and homesteads and moved farther west and as plantation south in the 19th century with five agriculturally rich, they began illegally squatting of the land the government followed during this trans passing and banned these laws over the native americans in the lead up rated as a result part of an effort to either force the indians to move as the americans had tried to get him to do since really the beginning of the country, or to allow whites to take their land. now native american people fought against this and sometimes militarily through war or conflict but also through law which do what they were told to do and what civilized did, they used a lot. well thieves are ultimately unsuccessful for the majority the native people especially these five tribes so you probably know, is been going on

through the 1830s and present andrew jackson a test shows the support for white southerners with during the advocating for the indian removal act predict for good reasons, the war is considered for many tribes to be a foundational journey, a journey that solidifies there's resilience as a people. but what i want you to take from this talk is that indian removal is that same thing for many of these enslaved people who endured alongside of their owners in the five tribes. so african descendents they remove the removal and remember that is. and assure history with these tribes. so there are really two different ways of the black community and the native intersect, first that indian removal was necessary for the plantation slavery and the second, the indian removal itself involves people of african descent.

now as for these tribes rebuilding after removal, historians argue that actually they rebuilt it better than before and so they course and homes and plantations and there are many people are very economically successful and again but is been known as indian territory. but about 30 years passed in the united states is increasingly divided over slavery. and hence we have the civil war and nation who work it had influential families black women and men they were very interested in these discussions in the united states about humanity and the civil war and slavery in all these things we think about seem to this country, were also very important in the five tribes. and sometimes especially in the nations they were large over the institution of slavery in ever joining in the war. now as a confederacy and

building alliances, in an effort the confederacy talk to the five tribes, and very familiar with members of the tribe and they tell them what they want to hear the argue that they would give them what the united states has not been giving them. so they said they will allow them to have more to say and they will allow to have representation and allow them to keep the indian territory forever without white settlement and more reliable and pay them money for the homelands. and, and for some of you elites, they would allow them to keep slavery while the union after 1863 was not. if the confederacy kept these problems, probably not after all the confederacy was partially composed of the states that had the homelands run 30 years earlier grade of us to leave the treaties were enticing to the members of the five tribes

created new have a shared ideology around slavery and members of the five tribes have and think are very important. and you also have geography, so the indian territory essentially were these five tribes are located, are very close to texas arkansas and confederate strongholds and the more western part of the country this time so it's important that they had some sort of protections so the practical aspects of legal alliance as well as shared sentiment around slavery. so it leading into the work, members of all of these tribes five of the union and the confederacy and others are refugees actually lead in a territory helping to avoid fighting or having to shoot a battle. about 14000 of fought in and around these indian territories just like in the united states number of enslaved black man five for the union or forced to work for their confederate

owners doing physical labor predominantly. and when the war is over, the united states guitars the fact that some tribal members had fought for the union they ignore the fact that they had not given the five tribes any production would not give them extra meaning and munitions and instead, the united states use of the that some tribal members have fought for the confederacy against them. so the ask twice the five tribes with the confederacy as behavior probably deserving of punishment and distrust of the claim because they made an alliance and the confederacy that the united states, we had a valid treaties with them. and so they threaten to withhold money that they desperately need after a war unless they sign these treaties. they do because they have been coerced into it so these treaties are called the treaties of 1866 in service of five tribes official as well as the reconstruction documents. what, i mean, by that. some of the most extreme items

in these treaties is a session of land. so the five tribes are forced to give up a majority of the land they had really just moved on only around 30 years earlier. in the other three big items of these treaties is five tribes emancipate the enslaved people of the nations of the adopt them as citizens and they had to give them land. the chickasaw nations had to give them specifically 40 acres of land up rated farrell familiar with reconstruction are really black history in general, and you know how significance that 40 acres is because african-americans did not get part of that said this in the united states coming into another nation indian nations that are supposed to have the right to create their own laws and run their own nation to be completely sovereign in just about every other way in the u.s. is saying going to force you to free enslaved people

because our we ourselves cannot do but were quite a fortune to adopt the assistance and give them all the rights of citizenship and we ourselves in 1956 have not yet done. going to force you to give them land predict now is this right, legally now read now the nation had ordered emancipation of 1863 so they were the only ones of the five who decided to do this without direct coercion afraid of it all the others, chickasaws, choctaws, cherokees, seminoles, creeks, if they had, we don't know. what are they given their former slaves rights and citizenship. probably not. they were given the land, probably not but this freedom, these rights and especially this land predict the former slaves of the five tribes on a different plane, the african-americans in the united states they give them different opportunities, and these opportunities are why so many

black people of emancipation why there's many black in towns and white has black wall street of course, the anniversary of the massacre just past the more people are far more aware of the black wall street in its existence. and so at this moment, and reconstruction indian territory history is really one of those interesting historical moments where my identity is both historian and dissented of former slaves which i call craig people. and i have to recognize something is legally wrong as u.s. intervention in the foreign nation or is indian nation known after the turkey nation in the georgia supreme court case domestic case the nation. but i also have to recognize the people like my family might never have been freight if not for these technically legal and just actions on the part of the united states. now going to use that term for former slaves and again and

again. in a free people in general target i use my work to refer to any former slaves of any of five tribes and of course more specifically, the chickasaw's freed men and women specifically. and so the reason that the land designated for indian trade people of 1866 is different as historically significant is because this was black land on her throat american government's actions and they had not been able to agree on given the african-americans in the united states, land and it was frankly impossible. some are very republicans who are moderate to imagine taking land from a white person giving it to a black person. as i'm or no, property ownership was and continues to be one of

the most revered american values but republicans such as the secretary of interior and affairs at the time, could not given any lead to african descent. because of the valley of land and valued private ownership is way that white americans did. so they saw india's use use of land is uncivilized not properly utilizing the land. therefore to them giving lenten them feels the lofty idealistic will republican called a black ownership while still allowing whites in the united states maintain their plan and so here in the united states, using this idea of indian savagery against the five tribes as i told you earlier used to be considered civilized rated different from other native people. but now no longer political plea you spoke of the five tribes are once again uncivilized. and it changed about five people

to take ownership of land in indian territory. in indian free people of the five tribes played into that. i want to tell you that chickasaws man and the way he talks about his former owners. and he says at that time, the indians did not have anything but small farms and of course among them, they worked like they should. the slaves enough corn to make the bread. and so this may seem maybe this isn't that bad language that he uses, they didn't work like they should. i mean, using the idea of americanness as craig will but the native americans were really looking to survive. so anything is with american and people were capable of working harder, the way they should if they were only given the model and the opportunity.

and so this is strategic language use in the increase of the words and very aware that was the united states it had negotiated for the freedoms and for the land ownership, let the former slave owners. some of them align themselves with white americans and the definitions of civilization and productivity. as for five people look to move west, we see some of them also using these ideas about native americans laziness or lack of productivity or civilization. in effect for the most famous african-american leaders in the 19th century really of all times, frederick douglass gave several speeches we spoke about african-americans might find land of peace in the west and how the states should support this endeavor financially. but to support this appeal, douglas immigrated native americans so it is speech to the american enterprise the city of 1869, douglas estes. negro is like a white man in the indian and the taste and

tendencies in this position to accept civilization. the union rejects our civilization and it is not filled with the negro coming he remains with you under all circumstances and slavery and it freedom. now here we can see the clear dichotomy be made between african-americans and white americans in one hand and native americans on the other hand in the first native americans are on the bedside the uncivilized side. and really joining african-american goals behavior with the white people are civilizations heard in another earlier speech, for the landless. and the people of the national domain was an enterprising and intelligent and race of immigrants transforming the wilderness into communities and multiplying and adding to the wealth and productive industries of the nation would extend the

area freedom. an increase the political powers of the north and part of the people. there dangerously the institution of slavery in a democratic safely and built upon it. so these are good things, right pretty so of course we freedom we want to limit the power of the democratic hypocrisy. but to say these things, but established doing again is putting down native people now in his words here have not utilized the west. so then of course is an educated man and he's familiar with native americans and reformers. a new this land was suffering than it not always been part of the national domains rather had been taken from indian hands. in douglas also knew that the immigration to the region which ancient worsen circumstances for

native people. in hidden areas using language of savagery and unification and allegedly like an indian as what might be like after interracial american immigration of my sent box. no while douglas is too speeches are given run four years apart, think they represent the same belief on partner wrote on norma's famous black radicals that african-americans deserve to share of the native land pretty and so what my book argument really goes down to is that my identity and because two different worlds that of indian free people and it african-americans in the united states allowed me to see the path of these categories that we put native and black people into so we might see them as people who had horrific events occurred in the lives. and there more resilient so we felt the triumph and of course i

understand why. but we were confronted with complexities of their actions in the ways in which the words are affected others, are we willing to see blocking native people in a different light can we expect five people who suffered so much from the colonialism and is forced labor and re- producers of mixed race children. and we accept the same people but also act in the capacity the service estate at times. the difficult question but i look forward to hearing your thoughts about them. thank you. >> thank you so much elena that was fascinating a feeling they learned so much and i'm excited talk to you more about the spoken to you and i want to pick up on what you just saying about frederick douglass and start there. you tell us a little bit about what the reaction to douglas' words work from african-american in the united states or do they

listen to the treaties of leaders like douglas and margaret left. alaina: yes so douglas, there are plenty of black leaders who talk about are either already existed and worlds like a church pastor or as well as like a politician after the civil war. there also people become speculators who work with white americans to create black talons so there are lots of african americans who want to take advantage of what they see as an opportunity to cash in on the land black people getting needed territory but also there are people who really appreciate the kinds of ideas that frederick douglass is talking about african-americans deserve to kind of not just settle west but have access to these ideas of democracy and freedom and everything that the united states stands for. rose: and then how did the five

tribes and people react to the migration. alaina: bullets really interesting because there's lots of intermarriage between indians and african-americans and of course they see their experiences in a similar as former slaves so there are also free people see african-americans as kind of messing up the good things that they have so they see this as the results of their enslavement in the fruits of their labor the term and when these more kind of african-americans come and a lot of these people get afraid that they will no longer be seen as slaves and that will affect their political status and sovereign nation and afraid that is african-americans and politically over them and become a bigger bully block than they are and so the interaction is that african-americans from the u.s. have 23 to people is really

kind of enlightening because we see the people who are suffered at the hands of the united states coming together to try to defend is what they see is theirs and really all of this land. in their native territory. rose: i want to step back a bit and ask you about the actual process of how indigenous people missing land and can you tell us how that looked at and how to affect them and how they reacted in that moment. alaina: a big part of my book is talking about how land allotment is very positive for people of african descent but also very negative native people and that is kind of the predominant narrative that i think as existed it with land allotment so that happens with the curtis act specifically applies the

dawes act 25 tribes in this the late 1880s and early 1890s craig and in the early 1890s people actually begin receiving the land allotment so formally they were living on various parts of any nations. basically you can claim as much as you could build on or improve for you to say to place and the nation in about a house there and it's yours and the dawes allotment process makes this more formal so you have a land allotment that is yours and goes to the traditional way of building pretty and in this process native american nations are really trying to defend themselves and keep as much land as they can for the tribal citizens but really thought the united states from trying to absorb it into itself. that's in essence of land allotment really sets up indian

territories which become the state of oklahoma which is what happened. and they established that these reservations still exist and never stopped existing but is still is not an original planet of the five tribes and never be any american settlement and indian territory at all. rose: so the next question that i want to ask us to about the relationship about black people and native peoples relationship and living up to today. somebody asked question q&a and the question i want to ask is why did native and black people take on these problematic protections of each other and hear more about how that ties to colonialism. sort of ties to what was asked in the chat about assimilation. i think specifically about you use the word choice, saying that indigenous people could've chose to assimilate into white norms rather than heart so i wonder if you could talk more about how

these problematic perspectives developed in what the colonial is in place and that and talk about what extent these issues are with today. alaina: i talk about the part of the assimilation to talk about which are specifically related to anti- blackness as choices because the fact there are the five tribes in part because they were slaveowners and other nations rather than america who owned slaves or who participated in slavery different ways. these five nations did make a choice and to slavery in terms of written really been kind of part of capitalism allows them to accumulate wealth and that is why there still some of the wealthiest tribes in north america rated but of course there are many ways that the people were forced to change their ways of culture and

disseminating that culture and the discovery of children and that was also our history in the united states so there are many ways native people did not have control over it so much. but there are many ways especially in kind of the even in the early 18 hundreds that it was a choice to decide do you want to let them into nation or not and do you want to send your children to a boarding school at the time because it was at that time and so as we gonna in the united states gained support military power and in north america, native people have less and less of a choice when things important to differentiate that earlier printed what they do and when those decisions are strategic in that they help them become seen in a specific way, being seen as civilized allows

the tribes to negotiate with the united states in a different way and the various travel agents in the secretary of interior often saw them in a different way. they were able to choose the land to a degree the panda settling on indian territory and the chickasaws were able to carry out their own removal and pay for it didn't mean to more a way that would've liked even though there was core versions. so moving into today, there are so many legacies of the adoption of slavery in the five tribes that reverberate predominantly in the way that we think about what is in india look like and what the importance of shared history and kinship. i think it's important to think of the adoption of anti- blackness as a choice because it

is still a choice. okay so, all of the five tribes have had issues with sensually throwing out the citizenship of the former slaves so that cherokee nations are only of the five tribes to accept legally the former slaves as citizens even though other tribes promise to do so after the civil war but in the 1970s 1980s, all the tribes essential claim these people have no history with us and they're not any as they should not be here, they're just taking the resources that are ours. as kind of segregationist narrative in a sense and it today, people like black submittals and afraid of people have full citizenship, they have literally second-class citizenship and these are all remanence from ideas that the indigenous people chose to take on and adopt in the 17 hundreds.

rose: thank you and certainly complicated history that certainly has ramifications today as you talked about. one last question prayed that i want to open it up to audience q&a and we already have quite a few questions coming in. i want to tie us to the master because we are centennial this weekend i would love to just hear you talk a little bit about how black migration to oklahoma connected to the tulsa massacre. alaina: yeah so i feel like with the university, everywhere i can hoping that this narrative is kind of changing i think it has a little. with the centennial but understanding that african-americans came to tulsa more interested in tulsa in the oklahoma region because of this lack native history because of this existence of black people owned by native americans i thank you so really the key to understanding the foundation of the wealth that was created like wall street and also height of

the existence of entrepreneurship but also by pulling so many of the black towns that exist in oklahoma were created by people who had land allotments to the dawes process so those people came together with african-americans from the u.s. in towns like oklahoma land allotment. so the african-americans in the native territory are already expecting a different experience because they know that there are opportunities and that there is a different kind of landscape because of tribal sovereignty because these black people do have the right and the jury is going up in 1907 and one in the united states, much of that as kind of been unfortunately rewound by white violence and terrorism and a lot of these

black politicians in office have been taken out there still black people in the indian territory of councils of the sea is different. and this is why migration there is really part of the century really such a large part of population and that is why the district is the district of black people who used from wealth from their land allotment and sometimes - also people department get educations and things like that read and they really create that community that we now think of as black wall street. rose: thank you so we have a number of questions in the check. i'm going to try to get it to as many as i can read a couple of questions from and about gender souls are there. one person asks did gender ireland and women have access to

the land and when another person's ask if you talk a little bit about the role that perhaps black women played in marriages between native black people during this period and just thinking about sort of how the gender played a role as the land allotments were playing out. alaina: there's been a lot of writing on the dawes allotment process civilized native women, civic and remember the names. there's a great podcast out. with free people salaries, everyone gets an allotment so women getting allotment and children get an allotment. and sometimes, these landowners are not next to each other so wish land allotment are we going to live on, we going to sell the others or uses for farmland etc.

i know usually glad allotment was chosen more often but there are various ways that land allotments are better or worse like sometimes there's timber on it, sometimes). as far as intermarriage, are relatively small amounts of intermarriage especially in these nations, there are people like franklin the father of an talks about his grandmother being chickasaws in our stories of this intermarriage when it comes down to it, very relatively little of that if any of the nations so i know a few of them have more but there is always this kind of fear of

intermarriage into relational will create people are viewed as black and not native cc that and a lot of legislation in all of these tribes permitting interracial marriages and citizenship for interracial children and my book talks about at how is difficult to have an interracial marriage or relationship that relates to children and how those children were treated differently depending on how the nation was thinking about citizenship and about kinship. rose: those two books are bright are you definitely recommend them for anybody interested in this topic. so this is a question ties to discussions that everybody sort of having right now, not everybody but less people having

within society right now. thank you so much for the insightful discussion my question about reparation including a decreasing discussion and discussion are getting traction across academic been dealt with slave labor. are there about separations but were intended for the slavery will talk about predict. alaina: i was just having this conversation. so in my book, i loosely follow the lead at lot of people's reparations as i do that because the white americans who are orchestrating this allotment are doing it definitely to crate discussions unto is a sad kind of get a foothold interning part native nations and making a part of the united states but also a lot of these men if you think about land ownership will allow black people to kinda create their own communities and to

build themselves up after slavery and so this is in the thinking what if you like it is really with the intent to make a difference in the black people's lives. even if not at all would be in the united states like you think about the land allotment as something like economically and socially change the lives of the true people and the economists has done work that shows that like they came with an apology for the stations and it essentially really didn't come willingly but still is something that i think that is given at a difference and does make a difference. and what's continued to create generational wealth is not for the white or black wall street.

in the massacre and so of course the conversation about this whole massacre get to that is ongoing. and really one of the clearest examples of black law that has been purposefully destroyed. and there records that show exactly what people did in one of the survivors and spoke to congress book about how her life changed her economics, her circumstances change of the massacre and yet there are still no desire to in a conversation by saying yes we owe you something. by just an apology but also, financially. so the reparation discussion i think is interesting in the indian territory because i feel like it did happen the reconstruction was used as part of an experiment and landed production are black people.

but also it is just kind of an example of how racism in the united states worked. and it builds on itself read and if you not after slavery, will may be you have just blew up because of the massacre and nobody knew pretty have to start over again. and even if you do that, what is going to happen when something else comes or what's going to happen and it's almost impossible to escape. so basically i think oklahoma is a great study. and there is a need for it. rose: thank you and the sort of ties me into another question that we got in the chat about the aftermath of these allotments. so after three people were given these allotments with able to make that land you know as you talk about, multiple other. they come up. other black owners today they

can have that land go back. alaina: guess my family still has a land allotment and they're still at least one of they are still there and it's kind of funny because now there like 40 people like several generations. yes, there are many families like that in oklahoma. but, unfortunately there were kind of guards put in place to protect native and free people by not having them pay taxes and also i know this is racist but allow some people to settle their leg allotment which was one-handed harmful because some needed that lender money to eat in order to buy things. and eventually, they were out

from the end of allotments was restrictions were taken off. many natives of black people don't realize the restrictions were taken off and they don't pay taxes news and landed that way. and sometimes people are just kind of cheaters who gave the right away or turned away because many of these people are still illiterate especially the older generations it so impartially sometimes they find things. in the land is gone. there also people like people maybe know that the righteous black girl actually think the richest girl in general may be in the united states he was a freed person. and was able to keep all the wealth for her land and that came from oil and natural gas during the guardian appointed through the united states and there are certainly success stories like on a very high level in our head of middle stories like my family never got any money from the land allotments but still very

sentimentally important that we still have the land in our family. and then there are many more people who don't have them anymore so there is reasons most of which were out of their control. rose: thank you. we have a couple of different questions about the differences between some of the tribes that help the slaves. it so i will say that generally and then will follow up with more specific things that the folks are asking. so one person asked that probably not for which he turned about with the treaty of 1866 in some tribes resisted such as the chickasaws and can you talk more about the differences between these tribes in terms of the relationship with afraid people and specifically how do you understand the differences in ways of my challenge scholarship on this topic. alaina: i am not sure i

understand the differences in the five tribes the challenges the scholarships. there hasn't been that much work done on the chickasaws and more or maybe not as much is cherokees. but generally, the chickasaws knows or is known for really disliking black people the historical say that in the travel agents in white minute come into these nations often say the kind of surprising how badly black people are treated it or how badly that the chickasaws think about black people not that they are like - but they do kind of been a better way of come around in the cherokees nations to adopt and to maybe allowing a black people and black indians to take on leadership roles or new tech places in government whereas as

you mentioned in the chickasaws nation people never adopted. so there's nothing to say that one time we are adopted and now is the franchise greatest of the signed a treaty. and they never followed through on his promises. and at a later date the chickasaws did but because they worked together, it isn't necessarily to the end of the treaty was opposed to happening spinous. so the choctaws and the chickasaws have an interest interesting pretty because you can adopt these people these three people or you cannot adopt them but if you're not going to adopt are not going to get the money life that we just have bought from you. so it is an interesting choice given to them and i've always kind of search for documents on why they were given the specific

choice. if i have at the maybe 70 also five,'s prejudice among the nations that it was known and they felt will hear about going to adopt and then we can keep the money. the net losses between the two nations of the united states over the money in our that difference in those treaties but that is the biggest difference in their other differences of how much land is given to the free people and the chickasaws is also the treaty not to have what you call so they don't admit any guilt for the confederacy. in one of the other nations do that in their treaties. in another kind of hard part of the difference and that choctaws and chickasaws is deciding to educate the children and throughout the united states so they kind of their strategic choices they made to bite into

certain american things that ended up helping him out in multiple ways. rose: thank you. we have a couple of other questions this about sort of the aftermath of once is different tribes are required to citizenship and landed to the freed people. one is a question about boarding schools. did indian creek people during the allotment. it's up with a of the boarding schools in the same way that native children work during this period we talk about that briefly before. then another question about how this period of time, you have and lots of ways united states government sort of tries to make sense of the populations of people. one person is asking if there was pressure from indian freed people to identify as black or native. and if that was a choice that people were able to make.

or was not forced upon them. alaina: well there's something called chickasaws prettyman who i believe there are undergrads at columbia. there also descendents and have a lot of information and they also give me things didn't know so they're talking about a boarding school the other day when the freed people went now i had never found anything in my resources that people were forced to boarding schools under many schools where black and 80 people not necessarily but african-american people and native americans came in contact with like the chickasaws academy which there's a book about there also place my captain and black schools where native students went. and forcibly so those are examples of black native people again being pushed into subservient role because there

is a puzzle on how to basically become second-class citizens. and there are lots of interesting examples about that. there's, robbery an alliance of the schools but also racist and prejudice to each other. in your second question, so until cosh, 1960 and think you didn't get to choose. so since this paper usually white person would come to your door and he decide on what race you were based on how you look. and some people in your household how they look so my family actually we are natives and earlier since is on the next census, we are black printed so somebody came to the north the next time, there are multiple reasons why but it actually creates an issue for historians. in the genealogical work because it can be hard to trace your

family and to kind of see and clarify with my family native or how do they racially identify because races change all of the time. consensus and now after the census i know that it was, really big thing were people could check multiple boxes and i think maybe the last glass to senses ago that you can be multiracial suddenly pretty i know that was kind of really great for black people who are able to filing of their white identity along with other mixed-race people. rose: we have time for one more question we have a couple of questions here about your recent methodology if people are interested in researching their own family history so i wanted to talk a little bit about some of the challenges you face in the archives pretty and thinking about methodologies from the field and just bringing some of

these unheard voices to the forefront. i work in your own research any advice you have for others who are interested in exploring her own family history center tied to the past. alaina: my first one of advice is the minute you start thinking about it, and you start talking to people especially your elders and i waited too long to talk to my elders they have passed on and i will always regret. i did interview some of them because i knew it would be important for me to have my family and my book which they are read but also the oral histories and part of the family narratives are important and you want to make sure that they are interspersed with the sources and things that you can also kind of .2 to say that look like this was a pattern, didn't just happen with my family. and i have been differently to my family so this is something else to talk about history and

how these prophecies happen so for example, my second cousin it was one of my big kind of prose told me about a story of my great great great grandfather being told by his former owner and he could ride a horse and then he could live on that land. and he did it and he had a very big piece of land so it was set up. i was like okay, this is really cool but it also sounds like something that would be a tv show rated and he found that two other times in the archives, people saying similar things. but still, it means that is not just kind of an exaggeration or fabrication, it really happened a few times and maybe it was rare but it still shows a sort of relationship between black and native people in a certain way after the civil war. and so gather as much information as you can and use things like the roles in the

testimonies on and ancestry .com read and use genealogy resources, the black native average nes run by 19 i went there as a college student pretty like i think this person's name is my relative and they were amazing. so the community is certainly there they're willing to help you and be humble because i think we all want to buy these really interesting part of the family history but also find certain things because that can lead to heartbreak sometimes. rose: thinking i think that is good advice and thank you so much dr. alaina r