booktv.org. >> good evening everybody and welcome. before we launch into the discussion i want to show little bit. 1947 by benjamin bass. until after 93 years. [inaudible] we like to thank all of you for your support, we would not be here today. tonight for the launch of her new book and doing drugs the untold story of harm reduction and drug addiction.

a revolutionary way of understanding addiction which she received the 2018 media award on drug abuse. her earlier book, troubled industry first expose the damage caused by the tough love business and helps spur congressional hearings on the matter. she also co-authored six other books including the classic, the boy from the street, in addition she has essay for numerous publications from high times in your times. british writers authored the translated different languages this first book jason dreamer first of the last days on war on drugs with oscar-nominated the united states versus billie holiday. the second but, it lost connection uncovering the real

processes and depression unexpected solutions which is british journal practice of my the most important textbooks in recent years shortlisted for an award by the british medical association, those have been viewed more than 75 million times. over the past decade for the magazine including the "new york times", the los angeles times, the guardian, the spectator, the melbourne age and politico. npr's all things considered, and that bbc's. those newspaper journalist of the year by international. it's also minimum cultural commentator of the year end environment public aid or of the year. conversation tonight, based on the coalition of the united states. she was born and raised in california, and a past reception of the bay area of

the 1960s. she studied at uc berkeley where she earned a doctorate in public health in 1993. she is worked in reproductive, hiv production, currently she teaches public health department at san francisco state university. that's our time on the drug war and the racial capitalism. additionally she practices meditation sensor in california. to the individual regional capitalism. an interconnection person without further due, please join me in welcoming maia szalavitz to the stage. >> hi everyone, thank you so much, i'm so glad you're all watching. i wish we were all in fact in the stand but that's the greatest place in the world.

in case you haven't noticed there are some things keeping us from that. i'm super excited to be here today. were going to be talking today with two totally amazing women who have done such important work. were going to be talking most importantly about one of the innovations in human history that has most saved human lives. were going to be focusing on maia amazing book on doing drugs. could you just hold up a copy of it at the camera if you've got one. i note maia a little bit. but we orbit each other because we write about an overlapping subject. i don't know any writers who work as hard as maia. and do such diligent research in such a spirit of love and compassion. obviously as you have heard. i just want to start, why did you write the book? why is harm reduction so important to you? >> sure. first of all it saved my life

personally. if a person i might been visiting from san francisco in 1986, and i was with a friend turned out later he was hiv-positive, i might well have gotten infected. at newark at that time in 1986 about 50% of all drug users are already infected. i did not even know i was at risk. it was astonishing. his soon as she taught me too clean my needles i was compulsive about it. i was just angry because i felt why are we just letting people die of ignorance? it makes no sense. we can spread it to other people if you don't care about us. i was absolutely horrified by the lack of care. and eventually when i got into recovery, i began to try to find out where this came from? who did this? what is this idea about and i learned about harm reduction. it was just starting at that time in the uk.

has the first ever needle exchange which was founded by a guy who wanted to destigmatize that word. and he began giving needles out during an outbreak of hepatitis b before the hiv was even discovered. really been much more pragmatic about drugs than we are. so they started doing this, i have this already there when hiv hit and they expanded it. the uk, people and liverpool saw this they were right up the road from us is edinburgh for they have a massive hiv. when they first started testing for hiv in edinburgh, 50% of their drug users were already positive. these are young people. everyone was freaking out. liverpool had just as much

drug use as edinburg did. but they did not have hiv gets. they are likely better do something. they began needle exchange. they also expanded a policy called the pre-system. it had been in existence in the 1920s or so. if you are addicted to something prescribed private so they don't have to deal with the consequences of the illegal. your prescribed heroin, and cocaine, they were seeing remarkable results in terms of people getting their lives back. no hiv epidemics and their drug users. and so, people there use the term harm reduction. and decide okay were going to try to take this idea to the rest of the world. it seems like a much better approach to drug policy than focusing on fighting drugs.

the idea that harm should be the enemy, makes a lot more sense. i don't care if you're getting high or euphoric, good for you that's fine. but i do care and as a policymaker i should say it's okay for me too care if you're hurting yourself or others. that is where policy should have a role. i'll think the government says you should not have the pleasure. but it certainly has a role you're hurting yourself and other people. it's a harm reduction makes sense. which is why, for a long time, the government tried to suppress. so what is the second best thing to ever come out. [laughter] i have to say that. but lisa, you are one of the absent pioneers of bringing this approach to the to the united states. he tells a little bit about how you first got involved in this? [laughter] switch to i think stumbling lady like most people. i had a use of engaging in

nefarious activities not the least of which was drug use. and like most people, painted but i think i call maturing out of that and i put that in quotations. at some point, this is not working. because i had a lot of privilege i went to grad school. which can also be part of the process for people's take on another identity. and, while i was in grad school i needed to do a research project. with a person who still using harm reduction work, we started doing ethnography of the needle exchange started here in san francisco. it started day of the dead covid 1988 i believe. we started doing the research and 89. it is always strange when you are researching -- i studied public health and too much

public health is researching the obvious that we can make the point that it actually works. and i felt that immediately researching harm reduction that's like okay were giving out condoms to people because we don't them to get hiv and we know people might not use condoms we also note they don't have condoms are going to get hiv. same logic with needles, right? but it wasn't. and i found myself fascinated by that. i found myself fascinated by the fact that we could get arrested for doing public health. i found myself fascinated by the fact that there is a so much a stigma and, what i later found was the overlay of kind of transmutation of what michelle alexander called the new jim crow with the whole drug war thing. i found myself fascinated with all this stuff that was on top

of a just a very simple, basic, ridiculously easy public health. : : whatever reason george dragged me into that mess. again, glorious kismet. i felt that i was really fortunate to meet the folks that were involved with that. i think one of the things with mya's work is there are so many stories. you know, i think maia did a very skillful job playing out a lot of significant stories while knowing she was cherry picking.

you could still be writing the stories. right. so many of the people who are no longer with us. to bring that, i really appreciate it. >> i was like, okay. know something about public health. is living in the bay area where a big chunk of my friends died of hiv. >> there are so many things and what you just said. some people watching will be surprised. surprised to hear, you are doing this very pragmatic, obvious thing. what was the resistance that you saw early on? what did you see initially?

>> some of the lines where you are company inc. drug use. you are making drug use easier to which, you know, okay, i guess some people do like needles, but most people are trying to get high. [laughter] i don't even need drugs anymore. [laughter] that is what people would say. there was that line out there. the anthropologist as you came up with it, if they are still alive, they really should be getting slapped. intrinsic to the drug use culture. things are scarce. people share. if we do not have enough food and we are decent human beings, we will split up the food. as opposed to saying something, that drug users do because, i don't know, drugs make you really sherry. a lot of myths going around.

you know, i think, that there was also, you know, maia touched on it a lot in her book. some of the contradictions happening in the black community where, you know, i would go to public sessions where people would say, you know, we need medical services. we need education. we don't need needles. don't throw needles at the problem. yeah, we do need all of that. and to quote the late dave, you cannot put them through the same treatment. people had this very polarized, well, if you are giving needles, you will not be attending to these other things. we are working on getting treatment. it is not either or. it is people need the whole enchilada, right. >> that is so important. we will come back to those

controversies. you obviously wrote brilliantly about how production was brought to the united states. can you just tell us a little bit about what you think is the most important parts of that brilliant european import to the united states. >> it is pragmatic and it is kind and it recognizes that everyone, you know, you do drugs and you deserve to die as an example to someone else. we do not say that. you have hiv so you should die so people don't have sex. but, you know, i was just horrified by that whole thing. sending the wrong message. sending the message that drugs are good. i just never got that.

no, it sends a message that we believe you deserve to live and be healthy. we may disapprove about your drug use, we may not care about your drug use, but we want you to live. that is really at the heart of it. that is what moves me about it. when i went out with the early -- in new york, it was just like you would see all of these people come rushing up and they were homeless and had, you know, very marginalized people from all over the place. if you were with them in a drug deal -- here, everybody was just supporting. they were just so astonished that anybody, in order to help them -- those people would just go on the other side of the street if they were there. these people might care. they don't have an agenda.

i feel like it is the thing that allows me to survive. when you start to feel that way, when you start to feel like somebody cares, you can feel that somebody cares. maybe there is other stuff that i can do. maybe this is not the only way i can live. maybe i could do what he does. suddenly, you get this transformation out of something that people would assume, you are just telling them, go get high and set of saying get hi, whatever, but we care and want you on this planet. it is such a powerful message. it is hard to see that when you are not there in the process

talking with people and doing it. it looks from the outside, you know, like, the miracle that it is not visible until you understand just how important it is for someone who was addicted to have a moment of just being seen as a human and not an object that has to be fixed. during my own experience of addiction, you know, everybody, literally think that you are something to be avoided. somebody treating you nicely. >> so profound. re- distinctive and there are so many important things. very often when we talk about harm reduction, very often when we talk about harm reduction, we are publicly communicating it. we talk in this language, talk about studies show, hiv goes down by 90%.

obviously a very important language. speaking with communicating with medical professionals and public figures, what you just said is, to me, the must more profound, already saw this in downtown vancouver, places have pioneered harm reduction, how important that spirit of, no, we want you to live in a culture where a lot of people have been saying for a long time, do we want them to survive? let them die. eric sterling who was the lawyer that drafted the drug lords in the united states. there is a lawyer who have to draft intentions of the senators. you know, that they would have people come in and talk about harm reduction at the height of the hiv crisis. but do we want them to live. do we want them to survive? in a sense, this is a technology

that will do this thing. you actually have to address the underlying moral question. not just in policymaking. often as you said, i have seen this in my own family, people who have addiction problems themselves. they then do something terrible themselves. they have internalized these. exactly as you say, approaching people in that spirit of love and compassion is itself transformative. deeply interconnected with the cases. does that resignation with you? >> absolutely. this is why it is an essential part of harm reduction. our laws were made for racist reasons. if we were going to have a rational drug policy, you could never have a situation where tobacco is legal and marijuana illegal. killing 50% of its heavy users.

so, right,. [laughter] spreading it through our drug policies so deeply. for example, if putting people in jail was a great way to actually treat addiction, don't you think the celebrities of the rich and famous would be like, yeah, i want to be in jail. that will fix me. it is tuber fruit it. we do not use this for anything else. once you see that it has also been coerced on black people we have to recognize it is driven by racism. not how to manage the risk

around drugs. once you see that again, being kind to people on drugs becomes critical and valuing people becomes critical. it has been amazing to see the record mission of this in the george floyd case. people are like, no. we are not having that anymore. >> on the flipside, it took people literally taking a person being murdered right before their very eyes. a slow murder it took. people did say it was not necessarily it, but that was after watching nine minutes of somebody get murdered. that is what it took.

>> it was fascinating how quickly the authorities went to that and thought that that would be simple something. of george floyd. i am fascinated of that. i am fascinated of that in relation to your work. i remember seeing a headline on cnn about the opioid crisis a few years back. and it said, the innocent face of addiction. a picture of a young blonde woman. compassion for her addiction problem. when you look at this question of this is the heart of your work, what do you feel that people should know that they do not know about this? >> well, before i answer that, i want to look back to something that you said earlier just briefly. it is about that love thing. that love thing. this also gets back to some of

your work. that is, truly, i mean, there is data, but it is also just logic and sense that what is healing for people is community, connection, being seen as a human being. one of the worries that i have in the reduction is worried that i have generally is as people become accepted as it becomes bureaucracy size, brought into the mainstream, what it is paid for are the units of service and how many needles are handed out or, as opposed to this other thing which is considered more intangible, if i say nothing else on this call, i would like to really -underscore that that has to be where we keep our eyes on the proverbial prize. that is the secret sauce. it is relational.

the ability to acknowledge and see the humanity of others. the secret sauce is not this other stuff. it is what is paid for. it is why harm reduction services get professionalized. we do not want people from the community. we want people that can get on that grant proposal. we want to have the research. then we want to be part of the nonprofit industrial complex. there is this whole movement in that direction and i think that we have to keep pushing and the other or we will be in trouble. the downside to being at home is a phone is going off. you can ask another question. >> i would just like to say that the heart of harm reduction and

any intervention that is deeply relational is very hard to measure, but is absolutely essential. so much of the errors that we make in our policy are around measuring the wrong thing. one of the things that is measured wrong for example is we have cut it by 60% since 2011. what do we see? more overdose death. cutting supplies does not actually cure addiction. if anybody actually thought that, what were they thinking? we will cut them off in this problem will go away. you know, you have this or something. just focus on that measure. we have done our job and all is good. given out 20 needles so all is good and we have done our job. no, you have to see how is this

affecting people's quality of life. are people doing better and are people connecting with each other? are people feeling better? are people doing better. that is really difficult in a systemic way, but it is not impossible. if we just keep our eyes on that, it is not as unmeasurable as you think. >> i love the way that you put that. especially this profound warning and a society that has such an industrialized view generally. reading a book about this where there's is a monstrous industry. it harms people. i think that you say that as well about part of the problem. it really comes through with so many different places. if you have the wrong theory about what addiction is, you can have the wrong outcome. it is just caused by exposure

from the drug. it is not from alcohol. almost everyone in the united states has tried alcohol. very few have become addicted because of deep underlying pain. even marianne states -- >> of course. >> she was mick jagger's girlfriend. [laughter] she has this line in her memoir. she is an extremely clever and amazing person. she had an addiction problem. she said heroin saved my life. if it was not the heroin at that point of my life i would've killed myself. not saying that heroin is a good solution. if we engage, it tells us that the pain is the driver of addiction. the core of addiction is about

trying not to be present in your life. once you understand that is what addiction is about, of course you say that it makes perfect sense. things that reduce people's pain , that humiliation, their shame over time reduces their addictive behaviors. does that resignation with you? absolutely. it has been clear to me for a long time that we are a massive society of trauma. you know, we have intrapersonal trauma. the ways that we treat each other. then we can look at racism and the creation of poverty and then, i look at an interesting talk by woman who was a zen person who was talking about

white supremacy in the united states being a form of sociology. it is something that we are taught. in order to maintain, we have to lie and create myths. looking at what is happening with critical race theory and this whole thing. we have to lie to perpetuate the myths in part because we want to feel okay about what we have done. you know. i mean that collectively as a society. you don't want to feel bad about it so you lie about it. i think about this whole pain, this pain that we have. in addition to the physical pain that people experience and everything. and, it is a surprise that relatively few people are engaging and chaotic drug use. you know, i think that there are so many other ways that people manifest pain.

some are even more pathological because they involve hurting more people. so, yeah, i very much appreciate what marianne said. i would appreciate anything she said. [laughter] just to be clear. with that said, yeah, i am sure that it was appealing for her. not appealing in ways that people would like to see. it cap her going long enough to see other answers. >> opioids are the chemistry of love. they bonded to each other naturally. it is so amazing.

we talk about dopamine. it is surprising. people who feel that they will turn to these drugs. that does not mean that that is the answer. that does not mean that we can condemn them. they are not like, you know, they are not people in pain. that means one of the most things about addiction. and that physical emotional pain is not real pain. i think that the way we have looked at those these days is just a nightmare because we have decided that opioids are cigarettes and therefore people that need them must buy them.

except people with methadone under various tolls. this has prevented them from actually enacting the harm reduction policy at this level. if we were to do that, we would have to allow doctors. just taking out the prescription pen randomly. you know, the point is just that moving people from a medical supply for five minutes to a street that is weighted with drugs has done more harm and all of that opioid marketing. it is very frustrating. it takes us away from maintaining whether it is emotional, physical or both. >> that is so right.

it is so maddening to think about the opioid crisis being kind of dominated by. a liberal version. only slightly visual notion. the evil giving this drug. it hijacked them and the solution is to stop the eagle drug dealers. it is this ludicrously simplified solution. as we see it has not worked. i really want us to think about, one of the many great things is that because it is a storytelling book, not a didactic argument based book, i think that it is much more heart opening than the previous contributions. it is so important that you have done that. it is cheap and easy to make arguments. it takes a lot of work to do

storytelling. you have done that so amazingly. i want us to think about, it seems to me, and please correct me if i'm being too sophisticate. two broad sets. different types of objections to harm reduction speared one is, a very right wing view. like they said to eric sterling, do we even want them to live? the russian drugs are come out the most terrible dead eyed people i've ever met. they have banned needle exchange effectively because they wanted the addictive population of russia to die. charging their hiv crisis, of course, and killing a lot of them. it satisfied that objection because i think we are satisfied that. many people watching this. the more complicated argument to engage with, i think that you're both done it brilliantly is, you

know, the recovery community objections to harm reduction. you came across some of them. how did you encounter them? can you talk a little bit about that? >> it was really polarized. i mean, people were saying it was either recovery -- and, i am even putting that in quotes. i think it can be a larger thing thing getting off of drugs. it is either recovery and abstinence or it is harm reduction. that is how it was framed out there. those of us in harm reduction were vilified. it was almost as if people were imagining we were snapping people in recovery shooting them up with heroin and then sending them off again. and then there were people in harm reduction, many of whom had been hurt in forms of the recovery community, not having anything to do without. they are a bunch of, i think the

expression, if this offends anybody, i apologize. i am quoting and i am not endorsing it. you know, everybody was marching in line with the 12 stepping. so, i think that there was a polarization and i think that it is a false one. certainly, people who are very active had been part of the recovery community, i am looking at the chat and two of my favorite people on this planet. how can you not love him. i hope that he is blushing right now. and mary, my white daughter who runs an outreach for youth. they are both, they have been part of the recovery community. you know, they are abstinent pretty much, by whatever definition. and they are absolute harm

reduction leaders. you know. so, i do not know if that is a satisfying answer, but i think some of the polarization has died down just because people on both sides have realized that it is ludicrous. you know, that abstinence is absolutely the best thing for some people. then it always gets called to mine, abstinence to what? there are some that i need to abstain from because i will act a fool. [laughter] there are other drugs that i can, you know, i have a lot more leeway with. again, looking ahead at harm reduction, it would also be helpful to have a more nuanced conversation where we can develop more skills so that the people can diagnose how they can use in a way that is not

harmful. i know that those folks were working on some use guides and i think that that needs to be completely developed, including, and then i will stop, but one of my obsessions has been the issue of how ritual. you know, the cultures of use, the cultures of ritual content to create containers around how we use substances. right. this is why, you know, okay i am having a couple of drinks with dinner. that is not harmful, but if i start drinking while driving to work, that is considered problematic. there are all of these rituals of use that create helpful use. i would like us to do more work with that. you know, including looking at

the edges of those containers so that people do not go into chaotic use who are using. >> let's wait for that. because we need these containers when things are criminalized, it is really hard to see them because we are so caught up with dealing with criminalization and tried to avoid, you know, matt. i think that that is definitely crucial. i like the chicago recovery line. any positive change. i understand the problem that people with long-term abstinence have. they have worked very, very hard to get that. that is absolutely respectable and important. the thing is, before you get there, often times -- some people will never be able to get

into recovery without doing some of that trauma work while they still have the drugs. i think that we can have it both ways and i think that, for example, if he had 10 years for complete abstinence and then you use for one day, in a traditional recovery view, there is one day and then 10 years. .... ....

>> and that you should absolutely be a 12 step or. but it's really important to embrace. >> that is so important

because when you try to communicate for those who don't see the arguments that something is complex as addiction we need a broad menu of options that for some people the right thing on the menu is a 12 step program like they save their lives but other people have it completely wrong it's not the right thing. i can think of almost no complex human phenomenon where everybody that cancels back. >> it is a rigid way of thinking. >> this has completely helped me with that overload. and to interact somebody else may take that exact same does

that mean trump is bad? know. but they respond differently to different things that only the human brain but the social stuff around it. i might like car shows you might like to go to cat shows. [laughter] >> . >> that that is the analogy. >> but not at all jokingly. >> whatever it is i cannot assign a more meaning of purpose and love because you are different we have all kinds of different things that

we all have a sense of purpose that we will get those in very different ways. >> and we need to embrace the difference. we don't try to pretend it's not there. it's what's lovely about being human. >> so we will take some questions on the zoom. >> so there is another aspect to this so this is a safe space to talk about the slightly difficult aspect so there is an easier argument so people can get the help that they need.

so dead people don't detox and we keep people alive and they have a chance to recover so that argument is true and it's an important argument to make but if they do diverge and then to be helped by that but please tell me if you disagree if we can explore these thoughts but for me, the goal of helping people with addiction problems is not necessarily abstinence. for a lot of them it is. for people closest to me, a lot of people with addiction problems the only way they can recover is to become with the gameplaying or pornography or whatever it is however this is where we would diverge or i would certainly is it is a

reality that we have to be honest about it. a lot of people who do have addiction problems whose recovery doesn't involve entirely from abstaining but even the layer below that. and i went to say everyone but to often addiction treatment can be the invitation of life with someone contacting their addictive behavior is a living death. do you see what i'm getting at? >> . >> and with that twelve-step phase i thought that people are kept alive for recovery are not emotionally credited and not able to experience the

ups and downs the way a lot of people say but i learned very quickly so if you are addicted then nothing means anything so i think certainly it is possible but it's also possible to none on —- to numb themselves so we need to help people to have access the biggest amount of tools they possibly can. but my idea of that are your idea of that is very different and those that have been through so much they will have

some form forever and they don't want to judge that for doing what works for them. because what if it isn't working for them? i can try to reach out and support them but the reality is. >> that is so brilliantly put so what are your thoughts? >> i agree thoroughly. the only addition i would make is that we have so many clandestine moralism.

so you are more enlightened person if you are not addicted or habitually doing things are substances that somehow that make sure better person. >> you could be lowered god ass hole but if you don't have sticky ties to substances you have to prove it just front it. so my years so it comes in all shapes and sizes. it has nothing to do whether or not you use are not. so that is what i would like to see more separated. people need to be accountable for acyl behavior. people who use them people who don't use.

but instead we can inflate all that stuff when we say the problem is you are using. no. actually. >> so the idea obviously in the 12 steps now we could all benefit from that model. >> yes. absolutely. >> if we're honest people with addiction problems uniquely are especially moral. >> that's what i propose the twelve-step so that could be perfectly wonderful thing to help people with self-help but it should never be mandatory or part of the curriculum because for one thing you can get it for free elsewhere.

i do think what substances in my blood doesn't matter. >> we should start doing q&a. >> so really i just want to kick it with you to for about five hours and maybe those substances involved. [laughter] but since that's not possible so what triggers trauma so for many women and that is often the case those that were

abused as children that they were victimized by a predator for people to say that everything that happens to have a party that's just like saying that you asked for it. no. and that is one of the side effects of people misusing because that violates the rich whiteness and they probably were jerks about it and they did have a part from what you assume and then to generalize that is harmful. so when you talk about the history of travel, forcing anything is that because

trauma has the power to be powerless and out of control. if you re-create that situation to say you must do this, no. i think so then within ten days to address these comments. >> i was in saskatchewan and in canada and a lot of people know that they were subjected to a genocide by the european invasion and unimaginable trauma and horror from those boarding schools that should be called force 31 —- forced

education camps so in the wake of this monstrous trauma with those addictions problems no shipped sherlock so what happens a lot of them are profound retraumatized and then someone fortunately would not let me quote him but he said in a bunch of white people arrive and tell them you could do a moral inventory. how dare you tell me? you do it. so our children and you murdered our ancestors we are traumatized and we do have to do a moral inventory said you

see that in the colonial context you can see the cruelty less violent that is a very vulnerable person to be taught the narrative about their pain that what they may come to share or may not the particularly of people reject the narratives the most addiction treatment centers in the united states than they are not engaging do you want to die? if anybody has any other questions. >> other than my head falling off the other thing that came to mind was a youth center here that is extraordinary that is truly about those that

are at rest on —- at risk so there is a thing called aces it's very popular way people are traumatized and one of the things that rises is talk about structural violence as being traumatizing and putting that in the model. if we can actually put that in then that would move the finger one of the things i teach my students or yell at my students is the people that have the problem are usually not the ones that cause the problem. so if we want to solve the problem we need to look at who is causing it not who cause it one —- not who has it.

said you have people that are not directly comparable to the camps but those that are completely not even dealing with it and have an individualized focus that you can only have in this social pathic white supremacist culture it makes me want to throw up. it's another violation. so i will go over here and breathe. >> i wrote a book about the trauma focus this is one of the first books and getting people to disclose her

childhood trauma and you can get opioids for your pain so it is enormous. >> so i've been looking at the chat box there is a separate q&a. [laughter] i told you i was pathologically incompetent stamp of the chat is lovely if you are following it people have really good comments. >> we have to wrap up in a few minutes but i will read out a few of the questions a group with the deer campaign and

surprisingly it did not work so approaching the youth drug narrative which we the production going in the future learn mcdonald's and can you tell them about mutual aid? any recommendations of movies or documentaries how can we ensure those unprecedented levels and alex says those psychedelics can have the potential to help people do addiction problems. >> first of all to view trauma early don't be focused be focused on the fact some kind

of genetic outline to be extremely bold and then you will feel isolated and lonely but not telling kids in front of the whole class so with the idea that it is a problem with pain and not of drugs per se so now ago from the last question with the term of

psychedelics and equally be very careful in a way that it oppresses poor people again period think it's really important you don't question the psychedelics as the be-all and end-all because nothing will be that different and if you over hype it and you really need to not have that. >> what are your thoughts quick. >> again, we tend to modify everything so psychedelics can be helpful but it's not just take two and call me in the morning. the use psychedelics whether indigenous cultures or currently has very successfully then within containers that are trying to

address and support people. we corinthians. so in american culture i will take some that did not work i will take more and that makes me nervous not saying that in a prohibition sort of way but how we do these things and how we produce harm by doing it from the ways we have been taught not in the appropriate way but people been doing stuff for thousands of years maybe we can learn something but an answer to all those questions. >> so where harm reduction could go think about ms. evans

to run the hotel society in vancouver and often says you would agree with this but to explain harm reduction very narrowly and those which are hugely important in life and said the biggest single form hall reduction on —- harm reduction was housing. nobody will recover from addiction. >> another form of harm reduction is to decriminalize when they did that addiction more than half so it's such a great tool it's very hard for someone who is quite skeptical and then say these

interventions aside so how do we take that concept and run with it? how do we expand that so much more? but then you have to say something up to the camera. >> i just want to say yes. the whole point is harm reduction is that you can add new ones to see what those are and then to do harm and another so thank you so much. >> thank you everyone now you must go into the chat box or i personally will morally judge you. >> 's you are strongly in

favor of killing any vulnerable person. [laughter] >> to be completely amazing thank you meyer who put her soul and her

>> doctor small is the director of the alzheimer's disease research center at columbia where he is professor