by a bishop, who was a refugee. the >> it was an unforgettable experience. he says, he was witnessing one of the great stories of southeast asia. the store the of south yet mom's fight for freedom, and the defense of her life for all. we're going to show you the cover of this new book, an schooled, called, raising curious, educated children, outside of the conventional

classroom. it is written by carey mcdonald. mr. mcdonald, before we get into the substance of the book, tell us a bit about yourself. >> it's great to be with, you peter. i am a senior education fellow at the foundation for economic education, for celebrating our 75th year, anniversary, of the country's oldest free market thing chain, and a scholar at the cato institute of the freelance writers, at forbes, and as you mentioned, the author of an schooled. which came out in 2019, but had renewed interest over the past year, or plus, given the school shutdowns, and the upsurge in interest in home schooling, and alternatives to school. particularly, was school shutdowns, and delayed reopening plans. on the practical level, have you've been a teacher in the classroom, or do you have children more of school age?

>> so, i am a home schooling mom myself. i have four children who have never been in school, who are interim seven, to 14. so, from personal experience and reflection. i travel the country in writing the book to visit other how they're home schooling families, as well as self directed learning centers, and other schooling alternatives, that are cater to families, looking for something different. something more customized for their children's education outside of, again, the traditional school environment. my undergraduate degree is an economics, and then i went to graduate school, and with policy at harvard. really, that is where i became interested in educational choice, freedom, and alternatives to school. as well as educational entrepreneurship. entrepreneurs, coming up with new learning models, at the k-12 level, and new ways to meet the demand that parents have something different their

case. carrie mcdonald, you say your children have been home schooled, but have they been unschooled? is there a difference? >> the difference is home schooling and unschooled, are both alternatives to school, outside of a conventional classroom. but, with unschooled, it is focused on self directed education. if we think about unschooled it's distancing education from schooling, including, school at home methods, and homeschooling. so, sort of a stereotypical version of home schooling, where you might have a parent sitting around the kitchen table, with textbooks, replicating school at home. i challenge, that a little bit, in this book, and suggest you don't need to replicate school at home, even in home schooling models, that you can encourage children's natural curiosity, and creativity, and, as a

parent, connect those interests, and passions, that your children naturally have to available community resources of people, places, and things. >> how do you get to the basics of teaching math, and reading literacy, to children in an unschooled environment >>. i make the point very clearly in the book, that it is every parents responsibility to make sure that their children are highly educated. i would argue, whether that is true, whether your children are in school, or not. your parents need to make sure their children are learning, and being educated. i think, with unschooled, because there is so much more family involvement in education because the parents are tuned in to their children strengths, and weaknesses, and areas of interests, it is easier, again, to connect those resources, and build upon the knowledge that children have, and their natural curiosity to discover.

so, you can go through the book talking about how to approach healthy, reading and math, in a healthy approach. it's important to mention, unschooled is not anti curriculum, or traditional learning. the idea is that itself directed, and student directed, as opposed to top down. you will find, many of these children will graduate to a curriculum for some subjects, or all subjects. many of them end up taking community college classes in high school years, and in fact, a survey done on many home schoolers by dr. peter gray, a psychology project -- professor, and in advocate who broke the forward to my book, they discovered that most of those an schoolers did time, in high school, taking community

college classes. often, getting an associates degree at the same age that their peers got a high school diploma. and then, being able to roll in a four year university, transferring those credits, and saving a lot of money. it's a very practical approach, particularly now, was skyrocketing to wish and rates universities. >> it seems that the home school, and the unschooled movement have grown, exponentially, in the last 20 years. is that saying something about public education? >> homeschooling has grown tremendously over the past couple of decades. the first year the u.s. department of education began tracking homeschoolers 1998. at the time, they counted 150,000. that number soared to around 2 million, in 2016. and then, over the past year, when the school shutdowns since the pandemic began in march 2020, we have seen a tripling

of the home schooling, right from that pre-pandemic level. so that the u.s. census bureau reported, in february, finding, that now more than 11% of the overall k-12 schooling population is being home schooled. that is over 5 million students. that is tremendous growth. one of the things that the u.s. census bureau found is that, really, this is being driven, in large part, by black homeschooling families. there is a five fold increase when this ended in black home schooling families. now, the overrepresentation, more than 60% of the overall population identified as black, compared to around 15 to percent, of black students, in general, k to 12 public school population. >> is that sending a message about public schools. >> i think, for this, year for sure.

parents were frustrated about delayed school reopenings, and during this, schooling was not meeting the needs of many students. parents felt like they could do things better. particularly, once they got a glimpse, perhaps, what their kids were learning, or we're not learning, in the classroom. really, beginning last spring. i think part of it is that. i think the overall growth in home schooling, over the past couple of decades, has been a desire to provide a more personalized, customized, education. in fact, the u.s. department of education data, through 20, 12 and 2016, shows the number one reason that parents are choosing to home school, is concerned about the environment of other schools, including, bullying, negative peer pressure, that sort of thing. so, the number two reason, the number two motivator, was a desire for academic excellence. i think, it is somewhat of a reflection on the conventional

school system. but, really, a sense of parents being re-empowered to help guide their children's education, and learning, and give them a more robust education that they would get elsewhere. >> carrie mcdonald, in unschooled, you use the word coercive schooling. what does that mean? >> coercive schooling is this idea that we are compelling students to be in schools, through compulsory schooling laws, as well as through coercive, top down measures, that you will learn this subject, at this, time in this way, with very little customization. and, they doubled down on the standardization of learning, over the past couple of decades. beginning with the no child left behind act in 2001, which i get into, in the book. that has accelerated over the past couple of decades. the new york times came out with an in-depth article on home schooling several years

ago, and they sound some of the biggest home schooling families is happening in urban, secular families, who are particularly turned off by the lowering standard -- standardization of schooling, and curriculum work. there was a push for academic standards at younger ages, and says that expected kindergartners to be reading. all of that, really, that turned off many parents. this idea of injecting education with more freedom, and consent, over coercion and conformity. >> what has been the role of technology in furthering unschooled and home schooled children? >> now, there is so many online resources for home schoolers, and, conventionally schooled children. particularly, with the reliance on technology on the past year, it certainly has been bumpy at

the district level for public schools, that have tried to implement to remote learning, in many cases. but, there are incredible online learning programs that home schoolers, continue, to rely on, that i think, other families, were able to discover over the past year. thinking of something like the nonprofit organization that is the leader in online, free learning videos. particularly known for their math curriculum. a lot of home schoolers have used them for years. i think more families discovered them this year. and, there is a proliferation, really, of high quality, online learning resources, that make home schooling, and other schooling alternatives, more accessible, to more families. >> you touched on this a little bit earlier, carrie mcdonald, but you talked about natural learning. can you explain that a little? >> the idea is, young children are, naturally, curious, and exuberant, and creative.

they are always asking why. they are really eager to explore, and discover their world. and, as i mentioned, peter gray, as they said, he has so eloquently put, these natural drives for learning, and discovery, don't magically turn themselves off when a child turns, five or six years old. we turn them off, with coercive systems of schooling. so, the idea is that there is other terms of schooling, as one method of education, but certainly, not the only one. and, arguably, not the best one, but the realities of the 21st century. the idea is to not shut off those natural drives to learn, discover, create, and be curious. instead, they allow those drives to flourish. when we think about the needs of the 21st century, where we are increasingly competing, and coexisting with robots, and

machines. what is it that distinguishes human intelligence from artificial? it is things that creativity, curiosity, originality, ingenuity, and entrepreneurial spirit. so often, those are the qualities that get diminished in a coercive system of schooling. we trade originality for obedience in schools. we created -- we crave creativity, and are given conformity. they end up shelling back those natural human drives for discovery, and learning, which are so critical now, more than ever. >> what is the downside to home school, or in school? >> i think there is two upside's. i think really, this is the moment, that's parents are discovering that traditional schooling is not meeting their needs, and certainly hasn't, for the past year. now, more than ever, families are looking for alternatives,

and support. this is sort over the past year. parents are back in the driver side, they have been rian powered to take the reins of their children's education, and seek other options. and, there is so many educational entrepreneurs, online learning programs, and community resources that are there to step, and support these families, with a different way to learn. >> carrie, the author of this book, on school, raising curious, well educated children, outside of the conventional classroom. thank you for joining us on book tv. >> great to be with you, thank you. background, love of reading and some of the books he has in his library . >> gary hoover is the author of this book jerry hoover is the author of is