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highlights, listen to c-span radio, and discover new podcasts, all for free. download c-span now today. >> good evening, and welcome to einstein's war, a program in partnership with linda hall library and the national world war i museum and memorial. cultural institutions located right here in kansas city, missouri, and we are delighted to be able to stand at that intersection of science and history and bring you great conversations like this one. now, it's my pleasure and my honor to introduce the president of linda hall library, lisa browar. >> thank you, laura. we're pleased to present tonight's program in association with the national world war i museum and memorial. our two institutions have worked together to present programs on a wide range of topics

illustrating the role played by science in the first world war. tonight's event, einstein's war, how relatively triumphed against the nationalism of world war i, discusses the effects of that war on the global scientific community and the obstacles that one member of that community had to overcome. on behalf of everyone at the linda hall library, thank you for joining us this evening and now i will turn it back to laura to introduce tonight's distinguished speaker. >> lisa, thank you very much. it is truly my honor to introduce dr. matthew stanley. he is a professor of the history of science at new york university. he obtained his ph.d. from harvard. he's the author of "einstein's war." it's a story of how passivism

and friendship led to a scientific revolution. he's also written practical religion science and huxley's church and maxwell's demon which explore the relationships between science and religion and history and potentially my favorite remark in my tenured career here, she is also a host of "what the f" a podcast that you can find on all of your streaming services. so go to your streaming service of choice. i think you might enjoy it. if you want to test it out before you start downloading that, you're in for a treat. we welcome your questions. but even more so, we welcome you. dr. matt stanley. >> thanks, laura and lisa.

and thanks to the national world war i museum and memorial for putting this together. i'm delighted to be here. i think i'm supposed to say that i would rather be there in person, but as i'm watching the locations that people are putting in to the chat, i have to say it's really extraordinary that i'm gouge to get to talk to people from coast to coast and literally around the world. perhaps this will work out better than if i had been there in person. so we're here, of course, to talk about einstein tonight. let me get my screen going properly here. we likely all know his name is synonymous with genius. he's the icon of science. he's the image you think of when

you think of science and scientists. and kind of what i want to talk about tonight, the story i want to tell is how that came to be. in some sense, how extraordinary and unusual it was that in the space of just a few weeks, the einstein goes from being an obscure academic to being recognized all around the world. and one of the aspects of the story that i think are fascinating, he didn't have much to do with this sudden change. that is, it wasn't just because he was a genius. he became famous because he was in a particular place at a particular time and specifically that was in berlin during the middle of the great war. he was blockaded. he was starving. it might not sound like this would be conducive to a scientific revolution. but there was one extra element to the story that made all the difference. and that was einstein's friend, that is there was just him, there was a whole network of

people he was working with. and we're going to begin the story not with perhaps the old sagely einstein that we know well, but rather the middle-aged einstein. he's held a couple of professorships. as we're picking up the story, it's the summer of 1914 and he's moving to berlin from switzerland. he's moving back to germany for the first time. he was born there in the southern town to a secular jewish family. he came to dislike german forms of authority and classroom instruction and for various experiences he became a socialist international. so switzerland was a very comfortable place for him. and moving back to germany was a matter of some emotional

discomfort. he remembered his difficult childhood there. but he had been sought after, recruited by some of the finest minds in german science. in particular because of his contributions to what will eventually become the theory of quantum mechanics. even though he's been recruited for this job, he's not yet famous. most people within physics wouldn't have known his name unless they were working on this very specific aspect of quantum theory. while einstein was recruited to quantum theory, he wanted to work on his theory of relativity. it comes in a couple of different parts. the first part was called the specialty of realty that he published in 1905. and as the name suggests, that applied to only very specific and restricted situations.

it was applicable to many different kind of circumstances that you might be interested in. what einstein wanted to do -- and he really hadn't had the time to do this, was create what he called the general theory of relatively. this was an attempt to extend his conclusions from 1905 to literally the entire universe. to all the conceivable situations in which one might be interested in the laws of nature. and he opened that moving to this new position in berlin, he'll be -- he has very few teaching responsibilities, very few administrative responsibilities. but the hiccup turned that he had been having an affair with a woman in berlin for some years. upon moving to berlin with his family, instead of being able to throw himself into his science, he had to deal with some extremely rocky relationship issues. in fact, his first wife, leaves him and takes the children.

einstein is devastated by this. he had a very deep connection to his children. but, of course, this is all his own fault. so the immediate thing he has to do is find a place to sleep. he crashes on his friend's couch for a while and he helps counsel him through the emotional wreckage of the end of his marriage. but eventually einstein is able to settle down and work. as i said, he's hoping to work on his theory of general relatively. now, general relatively is the idea that the right way to understand the universe is not as a universe made of space and made of time, but rather the third dimensional conglomeration of space and time in which we three-dimensional creatures really don't experience the university in the right way. so in einstein's universe, space

and time are worked by the presence of planets and stars. we talk about the fabric of space time, being able to curve and stretch and a lot of the strange things we relate to it, aging at different rates, energy turning into matter, matter turning into energy are all consequences of the division that einstein has of the right way to approach the university in a scientific and philosophical sense. unfortunately for einstein, he discovers that the mathematics necessary are extremely complicated. and einstein was not a very good student back in college. so it turns out that he had actually skipped the mathematics classes that he needed to develop his particular theory. so in a rather extraordinary turn of events, he actually goes back to his friend whose notes he had copied so he could pass

that class. he's pictured here. he's a professional mathematician. to ask him for help learning the mathematics that he was supposed to have learned back in college. as the story goes, einstein flings open his apartment door and says, you must help me or i'll go crazy. by 1914, grossman has helped einstein figure out the mathematical superstructure of the theory. einstein had been working on the scientific and physical meaning of the theory. he had published very little on the theory by this point. what he calls a draft version seems pretty good. in particular, by the summer of 1914, he had achieved a very important milestone. it's not just that he had sort of formally put the equations out there, but rather he had gotten the theory to a point where it could be tested. it's an important thing for any scientific theory, but particularly for einstein's

theory. relatively is so strange, so alien to our ordinary experience, that he knew that he needed some kind of empirical task that he could point to and say, this is why you should believe that my theory is right. and the particular test that we're talking about here is three classic tests. this is the one that is at hand in 1914. it's sometimes called the gravitational deflection of light. einstein's theory predicts that gravity should pull not just on heavy objects like tables and professors, but also on light. so the path of light should be bent by gravity the same way that the path of a thrown ball is bent by gravity as well. but the effect is very, very tiny and you need an extremely strong gravitational force to observe this effect. the way einstein figured out you could see this effect was if you waited for a solar eclipse and then looked for a star that was

supposed to be right near the edge of the sun's disk. the gravity of the sun as the light came by that star would be bent by the sun's gravity. from our point of view here on earth, what we see that bending of light looks like, the star appears to be in the wrong place in the sky. it's a different place from where it should be and the effect is small. you need very sophisticated equipment and very skilled observers to see it. and you have to wait for a solar eclipse. very soon after he arrived in berlin, there's a solar eclipse predicted to occur in russia. one of einstein's accolades is a trained astronomer who agrees to go to russia with a crew and all of the sophisticated equipment and observe the solar eclipse

and try to take a photograph of this tiny displacement to prove that einstein is right. this is a totally normal thing for scientists to do, to cross borders in these projects. there was something like a half dozen crews of astronomers in crimea to observe the solar eclipse. so while einstein is biting his nails back in berlin waiting to hear the results from this expedition, the rest of the world doesn't care in the slightest. it's of no interest to anyone. what everyone else in the world, literally, is paying attention to in august 1914, is the culmination of the long-brewing geopolitical conflict, the arms race, the political tension, and then, of course, the spark to protest the occupation of bosnia

and triggering the chain of war declarations among all of queen victoria's grandchildren that initiates the beginning of world war i. scientists watched this happen as the rest of the world does. and many of the scientists hope they can hold themselves above the fray, right? science is supposed to be an international enterprise, disconnected from human things like politics and conquest. and in particular, as the war began, the british association for the advancement of science was holding its annual meeting, as it turned out plan plan echlz t and in particular as the war began the british association for and they declare that scientists should be above all politics. this seemed like a moment for how science could rise above. one of the scientists in attendance there was arthur

stanley eddington, a professor at cambridge, and also important for our story, also a quaker. this meant he was a pacifist and internationalist. he was very pleased to see at the meeting these international outreach efforts. but this was almost immediately bashed. in fact, the moment that one friend was supposed to toast to observe, he was arrested by russian police as a german spy and locked up in prison. scientists on both sides, international camps, german intellectuals here, they had a famous declaration declaring their solidarity with the german army. this included many of einstein's friends and mentors. british scientists say germans could no longer be trusted to do science. this is a particularly famous

astronomer, turner, and he did not agree that the lusitania was sunk. -- the german scientists had gone out of their way -- and this was far removed from the conception of science. german scientists began attacking each other. the nobel prize winner dean caused called for german scientists to no longer be cited in papers. he said that they should no longer be -- partition them. he also accuses british scientists of taking credit for others were. this cuts across the lines that scientists use to communicate data back and forth. scientific journals are withdrawn. british scientists working in

germany and austria are arrested. einstein finds himself horrified, in particular discovering that he is essentially the only pacifist among the scientific community. he joins organizations, he tries to keep up against the war. he is largely ignored. because he is a person of no consequence at this time. he writes to a friend of his at this time, saying i love science twice as much in these times. i feel so painful for people about their emotional judgment and consequences. we scientists in particular must foster international relations all the more. and we must distance ourselves from emotions of war. this did not have currency even among scientists. einstein felt these issues, essentially, immediately. as the war ends, the royal navy blockades germany and germany

falls short on food within a week of the beginning of the war. einstein felthundreds of thousaf germans die of starvation. einstein is nearly one of them. he is starving, very sick, he has trouble surviving as he was getting food packages sent by friends in switzerland. he loses 50 pounds in two months and complains that his hands are always cold and he cannot write. for much of the time, he is bedridden and he often works in bed in pajamas. he writes cosmology while under his blankets. so he's feeling isolated politically and intellectually in berlin. one of the places he -- social companionship is actually in the netherlands. the netherlands are neutral during the war. so he can go and visit there and -- gentlemen on the right side and

there are physics friends. he enjoys being around the other internationalists and people of lecturing politics. these are the people he discusses relatively with. so these are the only people in the world to know about this work, on general relativity, and as i've suggested, they stop scientific papers just as well as scientific armaments. and who would want to hear what a german scientist had to say in any case? some of his dutch friends -- he is an astronomer. the world should hear about einstein -- and so it happens that he speaks english. so he sends a letter to the astronomical society in london describing einstein's work. it so happens that the secretary of the society is arthur stanley eddington. i can't overemphasize how lucky

einstein was that addington opened up. and this is because few scientists were even willing to think about this. -- but eddington was a pacifist and internationalist and thought that international relations within science were absolutely critical. he also was one of the few people that understood complicated mathematics. so as it happened, he was chosen as the one corresponded britain who is willing and able to think about einstein and grapple with relativity. and so eddington recognizes the scientific significance. and he, like einstein, was feeling isolated. there are very few people he can talk to in england who, within the scientific community, share his views. eddington is very worried about

the future of international science. he knew -- he wasn't naive -- he knew there would be wartime disruptions, but suggesting that germans as a people could no longer be trusted to do science, seemed to him, absurd. he had been working hard to get his colleagues to think in international ways, and to moderate some of their anti german hatred. he does this through practical terms. he points out that problems of astronomy are worldwide. latitude and longer toot lines don't care about borders. he also appeals to philosophical, idealistic and even spiritual concerns, saying that there is a conviction to the pursuit of truth, whether we are in the vast system of the stars, there are vast differences. and this is used as a barrier -- it's interesting to note that

what eddington he's doing here, by taking the pacifist views to the war in general and applying them specifically to the realm of science. these include things like making contact across the trenches and showing that the world is better united than it is divided. he invites his colleagues -- not as a symbolic german but as a friend -- the german scientist -- he was called a baby killer to try to work up fury -- and a perversion of science. -- disaster. einstein is grappling with the symbols of science and appears, in his inbox, he sees an opportunity. so einstein was a symbol of science, reaching above the

chasm formed by the war, showing that world changing science depended on international cooperation. on scientists working together. einstein was perfect for this because since einstein was a pacifist as well, -- as a peaceful german, einstein could be just what a quaker scientists needed to convince his colleagues of the error of their ways. that his relativity could show -- consumed by this wartime hatred. but remember, at this point, no one who einstein was. so dedicated the next couple years of his life to popularizing relativity and getting people to speak about it. he has to do all of this without any direct indication by einstein. they cannot send letters through the telegram. they cannot stand letters back

and forth through the neutral netherlands. this would look like espionage. many scientists get arrested in this way. so eddington was essentially on his own. he does manage to teach himself relativity. but he also realizes that persuading people of the importance of the theory would require tests. a physical -- that the theory should be true. so he wants to do this test, this has been attempted in 1914. and the eclipse was coming up in 1919 across the southern hemisphere. but it was not clear that -- would war be over? would he be able to travel? could he get colleagues to support a complicated and expensive expedition to test the theory? these are radical fears for him. --

some relativity -- he does have some success. and just as he was making progress convincing his colleagues to support him in this expedition, eddington found himself in danger of being pulled from the observatory. the war at this point had killed so many men -- as a quaker, he would have refused to fight. he was a conscientious objector and conscientious objection was not a legally allowed status. but there was little guidance on what would happen who claims this objection to the war. he was essentially the only one in the scientific community. the vast majority of scientists agreed to working on technical projects related to the war. so it was essentially unprecedented. and what was going to happen to addington was most places by conscientious objection. these were terrible places --

conscientious objectors were spies, many of them died in the camps. so eddington did not want the camps and continue to work on relativity. he had to appear in front of a tribunal to justify his claims and explain why he should be able to continue to work on science. one of his major difficulties was getting people to understand that he was both a scientist and a person of religious faith. this seemed like a contradiction. so, many of the members of the contribution tribunal rejected him on those grounds. he ended up getting saved at the last second because he was friends with frank -- essentially the top scientist in britain at the time. it was important for british scientific prestige to be the

test. that is, if they were allowed to do the test of relativity, that would show that english shines was to period to german scientists. in what i think was an irony, was eddington allowed to do this pacifist exhibition on the ground that it would be good for -- so eddington had been intrigued by the expedition, but was allowed to proceed -- the clips of 1919, they are across the southern hemisphere. britain was also under blockade at this point by you boats. -- try to end the blockade but circumstances of the war -- planning for this fall through -- they are hoping that things go better than they had been. in 1918 the german offensive

runs out of steam. the kaiser's armies could not hold. eventually it became clear that the germans could not win on the battlefield. the kaiser flees to the netherlands. and a -- is declared on berlin. and on november 11th, the next day, we have silence. there is a journal entry on that day and it's a very short century. he says class was canceled. and einstein gleefully watches the collapse of the military state that he had been resisting for years. and the politics that has caused so much trouble during the war was suddenly -- under this new republic. he says he is enjoying the reputation of any approachable socialist. and forming the opinion that i could brace their fall.

funny world. in fact, berlin is something of a scary place immediately after the end of the war. and einstein finds himself climbing over barricades. he has to negotiate for being held hostage by revolutionaries. and in the regime for a dramatic kind of action in the freedom after the war. so, it's important to emphasize here -- even though there's an armistice that is the fighting -- there is no peace treaty, so the british -- so, einstein is still struggling at this point -- he can still -- with the scientific allies and other countries. when the british -- the blockade would-be -- of making things as difficult as possible for germany, so that they can get the best conditions they can --

once the armistice comes on, finds himself working frantically because, suddenly, at the end of 1918, it's going to take months to get to the southern hemisphere -- and they couldn't do any of the preparations that they had to during the war because, amongst other things, they couldn't get the materials and labor because of wartime restrictions. and they were going to have to leave -- to make it to where they needed to go. for the observations. to get a government grant for this -- which was quite extraordinary, given the financial situation at that time. and the decision was made to send to expeditions. just in case there was bad weather at one of the sites. so, one team would be sent to -- and brazil, and the other team -- would be sent to the island of -- off the coast of africa.

each team would take with them special cameras to take photographs quickly of the -- during the eclipse. in particularly, a astros graphic, a type of telescope -- and the way you would do an observation, a technique well-established at this point -- is you get to the path of totality, that is where the eclipse is going to be, and you essentially build and emergency observatory, wherever that happened to be. -- and then the cameras are sort of on the right side of the image here, in the back -- and then in the front, there's a round mirror there -- and its job is to reflect an image of the -- and that's driven by a clock -- capture the image without any motion or blur.

-- they would get a -- and then, the stars around the sun -- they could compare to what the stars were supposed to look like when the sun wasn't there. and then they couldn't measure how much the sun's gravity had distorted the position of the stars. and they actually predicted this -- how much the stars should have moved on the photographic -- one 16th of a millimeter. a millimeter is very tiny, if you're not used to metric measurements -- so, that's less than one 1007 inch. so, a very small amount. and so, many critics of the expedition at the time said that's too small to measure. he said no, astronomers measure -- it's not easy, but it's a perfectly -- you should have confidence in our measurements. so, addington sort of works up

the mathematics -- and the way addington presents it is -- einstein's theory predicts that the amount -- is 1.7 five -- and then, for comparison, addington says -- has a theory of gravity to. and if we use newton's theory of gravity, then the reflection should be about -- should be a significant amount less -- and then, the third possibility is, there's nothing at all. no deflection at all -- so, at some point during the preparations for the expedition -- explaining these three possibilities to a guy named hotting him, who's going to be a technician to go along the expedition, keep the machines running. -- got it into his head that,

given these two possibilities, the bigger the deflection the better. if we kept double the einstein -- even better. -- and you will have to come home alone. even as addington and dyson are working very hard from -- they're also working hard to -- about the expedition -- so, when they came back, months later, with the results -- eager and ready to hear about this titanic battle -- between i-stein and newton. -- this intellectual battle. -- addington hops on one of the first passenger ships -- he notes how strange it is to be outside -- normal in the uk --

large portions of meat -- -- he has never been to principe -- this is a long time before -- prince of pay is a little speck of an island in the middle of the ocean -- a big mountain in the middle. it's part of the porsche gaze empire. and what it was known for at the time -- it was covered in cocoa plantations that sold cocoa through chocolate factories back in britain. -- the workers at those cocoa plantations are the ones who carry the equipment and set it up -- everything was set up by may 16th, two weeks before the eclipse happened -- begin practicing --

very complicated system stop a half to operate, essentially, in the dark, during the eclipse. and there is no room forever. there's no do-over. they have to make sure -- that the experiment works perfectly. it's hard to overemphasize how nerve racking the last few days before the eclipse were. years of planning, months of journeying, weeks of physically and mentally grueling preparation, and this is all without knowing whether the sky will be clear at the critical moment. one cloud could ruin everything. and in fact, in brazil, on the day of the eclipse, the day started off cloudy but then cleared at the right moment. -- in principle, a the, the day was not just cloudy but there is a gigantic rainstorm. and local dignitaries watched -- looking for a break in the clouds. and as the rain and, a couple of hours before the eclipse, the clouds remain.

-- began five seconds after 2:13 pm -- this machine like photography process -- without knowing -- and indeed, addington described -- that he wasn't able to watch the actual event. there was a marvelous spectacle above and as the photographs accurately reveals, -- 100,000 miles of -- we are conscious only of the weird -- broken by the calls of the observers and the beat of the metro gnome -- and by the end of the eclipse, 16 glass photographic plates got covered in a box -- showing the secrets of the stars -- and indeed, right after -- before they were turned -- addington telegraphed -- back in london. --

in africa, addington has to develop the photographs and plates -- it turns out that most of them are cloudy. 16 showed the stars they needed -- and the question was, where those an off? so, addington spends each day -- hunched over the photographs with a special tool called a micro matter -- and what he was looking for was, as we said, large by astronomers standards, but tiny by -- and then the measurement had to be reduced. that is, mathematically analyzed -- the illuminate optical effects. before they became real data. -- how fast you can calculate things -- an enormous amount of time. and in the end, he actually writes home to his mother -- one good play that i measured --

and i think that i have got a little confirmation -- at some, point in the first week of june 1919, he put down the pen he had been using, he rested his head in his hands, -- this was three years after he received -- a year after he had been freed from the construction tribunal -- he finally had -- he knew that einstein's theory -- and the new outlook of scientific thought. he later calls this the greatest moment of his life. so, despite that solemnity, he did not -- he turn to cutting him -- cutting him, you won't have to go home alone. this was just a matter -- he wanted to know -- -- back in britain, addington literal months of tedious -- and the results from principled were calculated to be 1.6 one

-- comfortably close to einstein's prediction of 1.7 five. and once the results were in hand, addington and dyson did some tests -- presenting the data the two private audiences -- in fact, it went well. and the -- scheduled a joint meeting of the royal society -- to present the results publicly. now, addington sense words of the results in the netherlands -- he still can't communicate directly to einstein. and then -- and einstein is delighted. and einstein showed this the to anyone who -- for the next couple of months. even when he was bedridden. there are various versions of the story. i like this one. one of his students -- who he show the telegram to the -- within 30 adam, i explained --

i'm perturbed, he remarked, i knew that theory was correct. -- what would you have said if there was no confirmation? he replied, i would have to pity our dear god. the theory was correct all the same. -- he's a little more humble and a little more critical. the test of his theory -- this is him writing to one of his mentors. -- -- thus, the intimate union within the beautiful -- is once again proven -- as he said many times -- but it has been official nonetheless -- endurable -- now, the public presentation of the results, back in london -- the people present at the presentation was a

mathematician, marc white had, who just cited -- the whole atmosphere -- if there was a dramatic quality in the very staging -- and in the background, a picture of newton to remind us the greatest of -- more than two centuries -- a personal interest -- -- and announced that -- prepared to say that there can be no doubt -- a very definite result has been attained, light was deflected -- the observation -- described the expedition -- and -- j.j. thompson, who i should say was not a fan of einstein's, announced that this is the most important result in connection

with the theory of -- and it was fitting that it should be announced -- sustained that einstein's reasoning -- -- as a result of one of the highest achievements in human thought. and the following conversation among the scientists -- relativity -- one person rose and pointed, literally hanging over addington's head -- very carefully modifying the theory of that -- the next day, -- presented the greatest scientific -- in fact, they actually shared -- upcoming observations -- einstein versus newton -- and remember that this was the

first time that anyone in britain had heard of einstein. and it was presented exactly as eddington wanted, who repudiated all of the work -- a man of liberal tendencies, one of the signatories to the protest against the german manifesto. -- germany's part in the war. soon, the new york times picked up on the articles. the lights all askew in the heavens. and this can be -- first einstein -- he comes out of nowhere to the front page of the times. and eddington begins to work tireless. he gives public lectures and interviews -- by cooperation -- and everyone wanted to pick

talk about einstein. heading to -- all eddington has been working about your theories, it's the best possible thing that could have happened to scientific revelations. i do not anticipate -- but there is a big -- frame of mind among scientific man and that is even more important than -- -- but things have turned out fortunately, the solidarity of british and german scientists. but this wasn't just searching. it was that einstein and eddington worked hard to portray this as a repair despite terrible years of the war. einstein praises the wonderful tradition in the science that they should devote their time and energy to. and this is during the war. this is the moment when

einstein becomes famous, literally around the world. the beginning of what he calls the relativity surface, hounded for autographs. mail piles up at his home. everyone wants to learn more about this mysterious sage that has turned change the universe. -- today in germany i am college ermine and the scientists. and in england i have come to be represented as a -- and i shall become a switch to for the germans and a german man for the germans -- it's worth noting that not all aspects of einstein's fame was positive. -- as a jewish internationalist. specifically with zionism -- and eventually left the country

under the nazis and went to the u.s. as a russian jew. -- squarely due to the timing and context of the war. it is described by rutherford, a great british scientist of the time, that the war had just ended the complacency of the victorian era. suddenly, a -- by a german scientist had been confirmed and sent by a british astronomer. struck a responsive chord -- scientific faith during -- period of war. but an image of scientist -- and it's a contrast that is so striking. scientific beauty and world peace at the time when civilization itself seemed to be in peril.

so the war and pacifist like einstein -- forge these intricate, fragile networks. without this network, the relativity revolution would never have happened. the theory didn't have many applications and without the war relativity would have been just one more scientific theory. without the war, einstein would be one more name for a board schoolchildren to memorize. instead his name was now an idea, an icon, personification of everything kids want to be. this was einstein and his friends, not just einstein's geniuses making. thank you very much. it's been a pleasure. you may email me or go to my podcast website. >> spectacular. matt, thank you so much.

i know i was laughing out loud at some of the comments. so i fully anticipate that those across the nation and from around the world were doing the same thing. so thank you all, again for joining us. again, if you are joining us, do please add your questions. in that q&a section. if you are appearing either on the linda hall library facebook page or the national world war i museum and memorial facebook page, please feel free to add your questions into the chat. we have educators in both organizations who are there to moderate. the first question actually came from tim and he asked a question, how did it come that einstein had no talent in

mathematics? >> so this is actually einstein being self deprecating. you can find a quote of him saying he wasn't very good at math. in fact, unsigned as fine and mathematics at school. that anecdote about him skipping math class wasn't because he was bad at math because he hated going to classes. he describes himself as being not a good mathematician, he is comparing himself to literal a sly literally the greatest mathematician in the world at the time. so in explaining why he has to go talk to -- he is explaining and saying i don't understand mathematics, i need help. so he's actually very good at math but not just in comparison to them. >> from tom winter -- npr science friday reported that the historical study about a barber who brings to einstein

the idea that gravitation could effect light and courage. is that something we have the opportunity to balance out and be a signing sounding board for the truth of media today? science, history, media, it's all coming into one today. >> [laughs] that was great. i didn't hear that episode so i don't know the specific question. but there is a cottage industry of finding the earlier versions of einstein's predictions. in fact, it was the case that way back in the 18th century there were people he proposed that nuanced theory could affect light. if you accept that idea, there are people who make similar predictions to just the general idea that gravity can bend light before einstein. i should say that a warning i want to put here. there is a group of far-right

anti-semitic critics of einstein in the 1920s and 1930s, he used his claim to make the case that einstein plagiarize relativity. that's not true it all and it is just an anti-semitic attack. >> from benjamin, he wanted to know, what was the results of the solar eclipse study that was done in brazil? >> that's a really good question and in fact i passed over that for a time. so it's quite interesting. and it's like the one that they have an africa. there are technical problems at the last second. so it produces photographs that at first glance are really bad. and by everybody -- by first glance i mean that the scientists that look at them --

they had been kind of -- there was a problem where you can subtract the problem and figure out what the problem would have been -- if you do that, then you do get a result similar to einstein's prediction. and the other telescope they brought as a backup at the last section. and those are smack on with einstein's prediction. so it's actually an epic tale of near disaster. >> i feel like in your area of expertise, the history of science, it's probably just full of the near disastrous moments. >> [laughs] >>, was einstein qualified to

carry out this type of test? >> the answer is a full-on no. but einstein was a theorist. he was good at principles and figuring out what was going on and making predictions. but he was not good at going and doing the observations and testing. so that's a completely different skill set. einstein realizes this immediately. this is one of the things he realizes he has to do. assign someone who is qualified to do the test. and there is a framework -- the frameworks boss won't let him lead. so einstein is tearing his hair out on whether he is qualified to do the test. but it's really important, actually, that einstein is not

involved with the expedition. >> a very specific question coming to us from guy raider. he spoke about a clockwork mechanism during the eclipse expeditions. could you tell us more about the relationship between astronomers, physicists and clock makers? is that a venn diagram? >> that's a great question. it's a unique then diagram. so astronomers and physicists, they really rely on clock makers. because clock makers are the people who can most perfect instruments, particularly robust instruments. clock and so, what typically happens, and this is a good example, is that astronomers and physicists have advanced degrees but along the lines of what we were

talking about, don't necessarily have the hands-on skills to operate the machinery. and so then there are other employees at observatories who actually have to operate the equipment in a way that people with the advanced degrees cannot. that's an interesting intersection, einstein, of the venn diagram. and his first job out of college was an assistant at the royal observatory. so he does learn how to operate the machinery in a way that physicists like dyson are not able to. >> from robinson -- after the 1919 eclipse, what were the divisions in the scientific community with respect to accepting relativity? >> this is an interesting question.

there is a real tension. einstein's theory of relativity was generally accepted everywhere. for the most part, everyone who looks at their data and the actual photographs agrees that there is a reflection of light and that it matches einstein's predictions. and maybe there is an alternative explanation, they say, that is not so weird. and one of the interesting things that happens is that astronomers continue to test einstein's theory even though it is generally accepted. so, for instance, american astronomers go and test this again in the 1920s at a much better precision. but what i find interesting is that they do the test even though they kind of know with the answer is going to be. no one expects it to be ever -- at this point. throughout the 20th century and continuing to today, we continue to test einstein's

theory even though no and doubts it. it's amazing, we spend billions of dollars in projects of science to test relativity, even though we know what result we will get. i don't know why the scientific community is so obsessed with this. but they are. >> we have a lot of really good questions. i want to be sure to honor everyone's time. i'm going to ask one more. but before i do that, would you be willing to stay on a little bit longer so that we can explore some more of these. i would like to hear some of the answers. >> sure. >> the last question comes to us from stacey. i know your next book is a history of scientific predictions at the end of the world. can you say a little bit more about this project of yours? it sounds very exciting. >> i certainly could. i wish i knew more about it. it's a new project, right?

so the question that struck me about this was that once upon a time, predictions about the end of the world was something that you asked profits and priess. it was a religious kind of prediction. but nowadays, we ask scientists about the apocalypse instead. they have a lot to describe. i'm interested in how that came to be and how these scientists take on the duty of having to predict the end of the world. and at the moment einstein had a particular kind of prediction, and that is the idea that an asteroid will hit the earth and destroy us all, the same way that -- describe the dinosaurs. when i find interesting about this is that when i was a kid, this was a ridiculous idea. it was literally laughed out.

but nowadays, we have an office of planetary defense. how did that come to be? how did we get such a change. for saucer specific problem. dr. matthew stanley, on behalf of the -- museum and memorial -- and the linda hall library, with whom we have been so pleased to partner on this and many lectures, thank you so very much. if you are interested in the future or the demise of our future, as doctor stanley was just talking about, do pay attention to the website that you see right there. start listening to his podcast. what's the f.com. and, if you like history and science, do take a look. we've got it on sale on our website, the world war dot o archie. if you haven't picked up the book yet, and learn more up by

reading the book, einstein's war -- always support your local library. that's another great way to do it. and if you want to stay on, please do. and for those of you who need to leave, thank you so much for your time. it has been one of your most valuable commodities. we truly appreciate learning with you. all right -- there are so many other really great questions that are -- let me -- no, go for it. >> -- interesting question about einstein's relationship to other socialists, like h g wells -- how einstein escaped germany -- i don't know specifically that wells was involved in that or not. einstein was actually traveling abroad when not nazis came to power and they sacked his home. so, einstein just never goes back. i think einstein --

wells helped einstein -- and then einstein comes of moves around and ends up in new jersey. and then, he -- so, it's quite extraordinary how -- international socialism helped get people out of germany and the access powers. spends the first few years of his time in the united states, trying to do the same kind of thing -- people helped him get out of germany -- he spends all of this time writing letters of recommendation and making phone calls, trying to make as many people of jewish heritage -- and such, out from underneath the nazis -- and then, i should say, all those refugees that come to the united states, sort of on einstein's watch, those are the people that built the atomic bomb. it's an amazing kind of thing that the persecution of the

nazis gives rise to whatever actually makes america win the war and become a superpower. it's a wonderful lesson and why that's not a good thing to do. >> that also comes a little bit full circle -- our audience -- h g wells was actually the one who coined the term -- more on our youtube channel. charles keller is associated with the h g well society -- lecture that he has done there. again, this intersection of history, and literature, and science -- it's a wonderful space to be. nancy vote, i hope i said your last name correctly. what happened to the astronomers that went to russia? >> interesting. so, there -- they were arrested as spies. and you can't blame the russians for that because they set up their equipment right

over the russian naval base -- which made sense when there wasn't a war going on because then you can use -- but once the war begins, -- so, they are arrested, whether or not they are tortured is unclear. they are released in a prisoner of war trade -- first german prisoners to come back. but then, with their equipment, stays in russia for almost 100 years after that. it doesn't come back until after the collapse of the soviet union. so, the germans couldn't have read on the test even if they wanted to. medicine -- that is you have a very specific question on how many -- this is actually a pretty important question. another example of hand waving for presentation purposes.

-- it's actually more -- a bend in the light after -- past the edge of the sun -- the diagram i had -- actually completely right -- people get confused by that because there are not used to thinking about information in that way. but if you're not used to thinking -- that's confusing. but you're quite right. and i'm happy to be corrected on that. who else do we have? >> -- and thinking about the anti german, anti semitic rhetoric, could you speak more about the anxieties of scientists during this time? they would have to capitulate to cut popular discourse -- scientists? have to capitulate to popular discourse? in the same vein, do you notice

any similarities with the pandemic today, the public and -- fabulous question -- and again, i hope i'm saying your name correctly. >> that is a terrific question. -- we have -- and i put some of these quotes out here. these really things that -- german scientists and french scientists -- and one way to read those statements was that the scientists didn't really believe that, but they need to say things like that because they are under pressure. and that's a possibility. we do have private letters of many of these astronomers, as well. so, we may have some better sense of what was actually going on in their head. and in the british case, which i know better than the german or french cases, is that they

actually -- they were not feeling like they needed to change what they had to say in terms of political or social pressure. -- and they, for instance, they laid plans for after the war, setting up new international -- where they wouldn't have to deal with the germans -- -- a particularly interesting case. he actually doesn't make anti german political statements during the war. but his personal correspondence shows that he was actually quite anti german. he's upset that his son isn't old enough to go fight. he really hopes that the germans lose the war. -- but then he goes along with -- on this interesting plan that could have been --

so, it's really interesting to see how scientists navigate the sort of treacherous political and social waters, while also trying to kind of hold -- in terms of the comparison to the modern day, and the struggle that scientists have had talking to the general public during the pandemic, i think one of the lessons we should take away from einstein and addington story, is that -- it's not so much that people trusted the science more, although i think that's probably true, but rather that scientists were more concerned with talking to the public and making clear -- making legible their ideas in a way that people could understand. so, addington really takes years off from doing his technical work in astrophysics

to help people understand relativity better. and that's a set of skills that i think not many scientists today have. and the reason for that is that we don't train scientists -- we train them to publish papers and run experiments -- we don't teach them how to communicate them. and i think one of the lessons of the league last year and a half is that it would be really nice if we took some time out to train our scientists and teaching them how to actually talk to non scientists. >> i already know one of the soundbites that's going to be coming from the top right here. there are two more questions. the first is about a specific date. you might know it. >> let me google that. >> the nice thing is google exists for things -- -- >> before wikipedia --

august 23rd. >> all right -- your answer. and then, -- brings us back to questions about media and reporting. >> the media -- the story of the 1919 eclipse has a media event is a wonderful way to think about it. there's a sense in which the first big media event of the post war period. radio and international telegraph line. so, everybody is stunned at how quickly news is spread around the world. -- he hears about this when reporters show up at his door and he's like, why do you people care about what i have to say at all? much less following him around everywhere, asking him questions. in terms of the accuracy of the

reporting, this is kind of interesting. so, there is the original story in the times, which, in an important sense is planted by -- they recruit a reporter to come -- so, that's pretty accurate. but then, the times just -- the new york times gets the times of london article and then kind of rights their own article based on that. just on the article. there are not talking to anyone. and so, the act inaccuracies begin to creep in. -- all go back to the times article. -- men of science -- and then, this famous line here, a book for 12 -- and then the article will say no more than 12 people -- that's totally fabricated by the times.

that's not true at all. lots of people understood relativity, by this point. -- some variation of, it even today -- only for people really understand einstein's theory -- for people in the building, maybe. and then the times article gets picked up by other newspapers. and so, you track inaccuracies -- and some of the inaccuracies -- and's nationality, which i think was an interesting one that people tend to forget. the fact that he is jewish, kind of drops off the map very quickly, as well. and the two expeditions, want to africa, one to brazil, get conflated quite quickly. and the actual numerical predictions disappear, essentially. --

>> dr. matthew stanley, thank you so very much. it has been a true delight to be in conversation with you this evening. and it is a to light at the national -- and at the london hall library to stand in that space of trying to keep an accuracies away from both history and science and to be bringing conversations like this to you in your homes right now, if you're watching live, and in the future. you have enjoyed this and you want to share and you can't you can find it on our youtube page -- the easiest way to get their is to go to the world war dot o r g and on the upper hand side you'll see the u2 panel -- and you can share from their later on. if you want to find out more, pick up the book.

or be following along with doctor stanley at any of his other spaces where he is teaching. again, doctor stanley, thank you so very much -- >> thanks so much for having me. this was really delightful. >> and thank you all for being here.