>> focuses on his early book bob dole and u.s. presidents. >> can you remember the first moment in your life that history matter to you? >> history was always very personalized. history existed in the memories and the stories of people in particular my maternal grandparents. my grandfather was born in 1895, my grandmother in 1899 and i spent an enormous amount of time around them growing up and listening to their stories about

the past and first of all may be unbiased unlike professional historians i was always much more interested in the people then in the social forces and beyond personal control and always in the history of a narrative art, it is the story of people in their individual struggles and achievements and their collective struggles and achievements. i remember one early scene planted. i'm a hurricane freak i have cracked every storm since i was seven but even before that i remember hearing them talk about the great new england hurricane

of 1938 in the physical impact that i had it was a strain that nobody was prepared for was pre-satellite era and her kids did not hit new england. they were among the complacent and the experience that they obviously never forgot and could still vividly describe for the grandsons benefit 40 or 50 years later. perhaps beginning with them i made it my business to become well acquainted with lots of older people. it was one of the first things that set me apart from my peers

and i was always much more comfortable around 80 -year-olds there were no way a mystery to be solved. >> what you do with the information. >> it's interesting the first book i wrote, it was a wonderful partnership, the previous history was 1878. allotted happened since then this was in 1978. in townsend that massachusetts townsend was physically massachusetts and spiritually outside of new hampshire into

boston and had a rich history. and what i accumulated and older folks it was very lucky, was a company for very long time my grandfather worked there and it was classic there was a house on

the hill in the house is called windy crest who worked as a maid at windy crest who gave me an opening then i got to know the presidents. in particular those were the histories that breathed into biography although i think are inseparable. i thought a very poignant instance in 1960s the world had moved on it didn't need a lot of barrels anymore in the presidents had to close this enormous what i live to see complex of buildings that comprised this barrel making enterprise. the last of the family responsible for the company and was a man named stanley and

stanley was a classic seemingly emotionally distant a bit remote, a condition that was probably exacerbated by his status. i thought even more so by the feelings that he entertained no doubt feelings of guilt and failure that would fall into his lot to be a member of his family that presided over the end of the century old enterprise and all that it met. i got to know him. the last three or four years of his life he went to an office every day on the site of a

factory, i don't know what he did i don't think you did very much but it was keeping alive his connection to and i went and we talked and talked, i don't think he talked a lot, i don't forget a lot of people. that he thought he really could talk. after that the last save his life i went to the hospital he had pancreatic cancer and what do you say to people at that point. after he died his family gave me his great big desk that he used which filled up most of the room whatever room it was in. then i wrote a sequel about history because all of stanley's papers in the company's papers

all of the families papers came to me and again, it was a wonderful printer ship it combined all history talking about a history that was close in time and proximity. but also something that would buy archival and there's just no substitute which was commercially published in the 1982 i went to rochester, new york for a year. i got an apartment for $260 a month a mile from the library i would walk every day and be there at 9:00 o'clock when open instantly carol for eight hours going through boxes of paper

someone asked him and he said no one else had asked anyway there was hundreds and hundreds of boxes. i went through it all and they took notes and then i would go home in the evening and right it's over 700 pages of text in a thousand footnotes i researched and wrote 18 months which only testifies to what you could do when you're very young and very obsessed with whatever you're doing. but again it set the pattern, i never found an alternative to exhaustive personal archival research i never used the research assistant.

you and only you have an antidote, what letter would contribute to your overall portrait with the economy. in the contribution i share a

birthday neither of whom i am staking for. >> why don't i know. [laughter] i have a lot of useless information. >> what is my gandhi do you. >> got so is in arctic, not just funny but is obviously a rebel but of course he could've been him without margaret. that is the thing. i wonderful and the perfect

cliché, the society to be clueless in arctic and probable figure is pulling your leg. >> what's without relationship. >> a movie after movie after movie the two of them were protagonist, and never varied he was the wise if there is such a word and she was the mountainous. >> when did he die. >> he died in the late 70s i believe. >> what about his television so.

>> what impacted his television show on what we see today. >> it's interesting to broke all the rules. it was a game show, not a game show but a vehicle may be an opportunity for him to be groucho and get off of one liners and shocking often very clever at the expense of contestants who were among other things frequently asked and identified he was in grant's tomb and his endeavors. he had a sidekick george with his plan and groucho. it was the 50s the planned

50s and groucho was a wonderful breath. >> it was totally pointless exercise, it was the whole point of the show. , built on geologic of groucho. >> what about mahatma gandhi. >> on a much more serious thing on never forget i told the story in my eulogy. >> president florida my eulogy on president florida who at the turn-of-the-century was asked by time magazine, a number of other prominent people to identify his candidate for the greatest figure on the 20th century. and i assumed that that he would

pick them and second yours and others had been taken the second was really interesting to figures from the third world made of color, each of whom distinguish themselves in opposing colonialism. it's one more reminder that you should never fall into the error of assuming or presuming you know people were there preferences mohammed is a great unlikely figure who was at one

time a south african warrior. who aspired to success in that genre and came early in life to be radically transformed. it's a bit like george washington were the young man wanted nothing more to be promoted in the british army and socially successful and enjoy the status and the wealth and the prerogatives that went with the colonial establishment, that's not what we were watching at this point he became a source of inspiration for example for my and luther king whose gospel

nonviolent resistance to oppressive government and became he was the largest figure of his time much more than a nationalist, he is inseparable from the book from the breakaway from the british empire but he became larger in india. >> to have a photographic memory. >> i don't think so maybe not even aware of it. i have and for things that i'm

interested in research that i'm doing and four years later it is no great particular value, but i might not remember what i had for breakfast. i suspect a lot of people and of overdeveloped in some areas. i was very lucky and friend of a

friend who is becoming an agent and to figure himself in washington and it just so happens we went into the business together he is an agent would be author and he went and i did not know that you weren't supposed to i went 200 page book proposal which i suspect is 90 longer than it should've been. but at least they gave evidence, from the very beginning i thought this man has got to be more interesting than the man on the wedding cake. >> there's a story about that alice is always credited where the marvelous was so spot on about governor julie he was a short man about 5-foot 8 inches.

he was a very sensitive about his height his critics said he stood on a cyclopedia when he gave a speech. but more than that he was prim in appearance and precise he was a perfectionist perfectly dressed and he had a mustache, which in those days was a suspect. recalled chaplain or hitler, only if you were lucky didn't remind you of gable. it is public manner and important to distinguish, somewhat super silly, all of this came together his work is credited with having to describe them as a little bit on the wedding cake. it was perfect and devastating. >> why was she doing. >> she was not a do we fan. ironically theater roosevelt's

daughter was a great my of wayne's son robert, robert taft mr. conservative and mr. republican. >> senator from ohio. >> senator from ohio represented in those days the midwestern conservative and ideal. >> tom dewey was governor of when? >> he was governor for 12 years, three terms covid-19 43 to 1955. but before that he was a national celebrity he was the gangbusters. he was the racket buster from michigan and rested roots. much against his will was sucked into legal political world and we became the special prosecutor

and affect who smashed the records and put him behind bars and then elected as the district attorney. it was 5 - 1 democratic in dewey's popularity was such that it neighboring counties in brooklyn saying dewey is not running in this county. he became synonymous with new york for better or worse because then as now there is a great divide in the republican party. it went back ironically to the fight back to the 1912, it was geographical, the east goes to the midwest in those days the southwood factor in republican politics. it was as old as jefferson divide in some ways mimicked,

but anyways this goes along with i talked through the book she was quite elderly and i wrote to her and she was kind and she sent me her phone number and i called her i didn't address family like residence and we had various chat she was very frank and said she did not deserve credit for the line. the fact is she overheard in her dentist office. there is a very small collective that is no small part of the function. i've been at this long enough now and i'm sure lots and of other folks and say the same thing. at first eliminating in the

depressing to see how often the same stories in the same antidotes in the same quotes get picked up and transferred to the volume. in part of your job is to strip all of that away coming back to the beginning. >> he ran for president how many times. >> he was nominated twice and 34 and 48 he ranted 40 only to lose to linda who is standing at the convention hall and forward shouting we want wilkie.

imagine being 46 years old which is what it was in november 1948 everyone assumed he was by the wind. but one of the things overlooked people grossly exaggerate all tn and in fact the polls showed in by six points it would not be assumed as it was universally assumed. >> i would go back to some other things. >> into book contract that had done well the well reviewed and i was very lucky i got to do a book on herbert hoover being on the post white house years which struck me as being the most revealing period of his life,

here is a man and subways was almost a sequel written, he was a man that said everything came too early to me. he was saddled in middle-aged with a lifelong reputation with a man who grew sure thing and spent the rest of his life dealing with that. who were on a much larger scale hoover had been the most admired and most loved american on the global scene because he was a global figure and he was a man who woodward wilson put in charge of the american food administration. home and despite and despise communism after the war, he was also her just american at this

time. in 1928 so was herbert hoover. >> this is what contributes to the great tragedy of hoover. people had been read partly through his own efforts they were read to expect miracles and there is something that was terrible to happen in some profoundly to go wrong i would be blamed are in the president had not commonly spent the bulk of what he dealt with, how do you come to terms political life is over and the office is over. you become an animal to millions

of the same countrymen who cheered you into the white house. how do you deal with that. he lived for over 30 years you constructively affect your life without becoming better without seeking the dictation whatever that means. >> i never met him. >> did you ever meet dewey? >> no but i was in the same room in 1968 i wanted taken from elliott richardson secretary as a guest of the massachusetts delegation of the convention and then i got a job and i had a lot of money to pay for airfare and hotel in august and 68 and of the floor of the convention and the rockefeller demonstration but i remember the first time at the convention monday you we

spoke. i remember we were in the same room and i was a long way from the podium. the next best thing i interviewed 175 people for the dewey book. a lot of these are people that never talked, it was because they refused to talk. best of all dewey has assumed secretary for 37 years lauren laffey was her name and she knew where all the bodies were buried. he was a real prosecutor and he did not put a lot of things on paper i single death story came out of that relationship first of all the reconstruction and almost met in a way that it never been attempted before.

in 1952 this goes to the question of the continued influence. he had one last chance robert taft by the way not just for personal reasons, he thought he was an isolationist and after world war ii america had a mission. he writes eisenhower is a reluctant candidate dewey had only told eisenhower that he wanted to run for president and he was noncommittal. so given no encouragement. dewey was a much better campaign manager for other people then he was of himself which is off to the gate. he knew exactly what button to push. no copy was made or exist, he

sat down in hand wrote a letter to eisenhower who was at nato headquarters outside paris and he told him if he did not quit beto and come back in campaign for the nomination then the party was likely to nominate douglas. needless to say that was not a prospect eisenhower was appealing. >> the book on hoover was what year. >> it appeared in my. >> when you're young it is amazing what you could do these books are to your intervals a book of an uncommon man which hoover was mildly annoyed henry wallace a famous book called the century of the common man. >> who was see. >> is the vice president fdr of

three vice president from iowa i great agricultural scientist who was not like hoover and he was a scientist he was rational like a scientist which disqualified him from success anyway he was a great rebel and since a nominalist. in 1940 with the progressive party which many people believe at the time was not only infiltrated to domestic communist. wallace developed a reputation of a naïve man, later people with the stereotyping, later he became a supporter of the korean

war and he endorsed richard dixon for 1960. anyway. >> the next book. >> 1984 an uncommon man was hoover's response to a common man he said when we need a doctor and when we need surgery we want a good doctor. that is the next book the next book is a harvard century which appeared in 1986. the 250th anniversary of harvard college. it was updating samuel elliott history with a much more national focus. >> he went there were you supposed to write for harvard? >> no i've never written it's interesting i've had

institutions approach me and indeed with colonel that was made possible by the tribune in the mccormick foundation. it was also explicitly explain that that was commissioned of having no financial interest or saying a manuscript it was equally independent. >> let me come back to the second i want to go back to your learning process. what year in your life in school onto history. >> is a good question and a fair question scolds and i can't take the time that it wasn't. >> that is your professor that you remember those early days?

the colts. >> academically inspired. >> was there anybody in your family. >> i had teachers. >> they were all scratching their heads, my interest in politics because my parents neither of whom were particularly interested, what happened classically was i was indulged i was very lucky. from an early age i had a mother who love to travel. it was a very modest household might dad worked at an assembly line on ge, he didn't have money but all year she would save up money not for the christmas club but for the summer trip in the summer trip was two or three

weeks as i called it the station wagon from hell with my four siblings. >> i'm in the middle of two older into younger. and a friend of hers and basically we call it a region of the country we did the midwest most of the south but beyond that i got to set the itinerary. maybe because nobody else offered to do it. i was perhaps had a vacuum to fill or maybe i wanted to revisit all these presidential homes and battlefields. that is the interesting history and the passion for history was

something that manifested itself almost a physical experience of going there. there is no, there is nothing like being there. >> give us an example of someplace you remember going early. >> in 19662 years after hoover died we stood up on the hill and iowa to the presidential motor long. >> the characteristically modernist but it was a 15 minute walk down the hill to the park of the birthplace, the library in the gravesite and preserved i remember being blood away by the

experience. i suppose it calls for quality of imagination. i can't imagine writing history or biography without the capacity to summon one's imagination. hopefully as vivid and credible as possible and reproduction of actual events and people. >> what year did you go back to the presidential library. >> that was my first presidential library in the fall of 1987 i was approached who was from west branch and he started out as a laborer as a kid working there and working his way up to become part of the presidential library system is the national archives. i was working on the hill and

speaking for pete wilson senator from california and i just finished and published the harvard bucket i was actually asked by bob and elizabeth dole to cowrite their joint autobiography in 1988. that's what i was doing i had never been surprised i got a call one day from john and they asked how i would like to be at the hoover library. >> i want to stick with education for a minute. >> what were your grades. >> they got me too harvard. >> with a straight a's? >> i don't think they were straight a's. >> for example i regretted to

this day i think that is the deficiency for the most part i never took algebra i don't know why anybody would. i kind of pretend but i certainly knew what i was interested in. >> you remember what i teacher returned inside a+ this is really good. >> there were a few of those, the one that i remember at harvard from an independent study course was good when. he was a professor teaching a presidential history course that i was enrolled in but then i was able -- harvard wasn't recently

lax and allowing one to explore particular interest in independent study and she was good enough to agree to this. i remember i wrote two papers with lbj and she said she was very kind, and she said this is clear. >> achieving her book on lbj? >> i think she had. >> what year end harvard. >> graduated in 75. i went in the fall 71, they succeeded following the disturbances of the late 60s. >> if you go back to the high school years did you move around

in massachusetts? >> we were in one place and that gave me an opportunity to dig below the surface of the history and the town of which i grow up in. >> what was your high school i do you have any memories of the impact that that may have had a new pre-did anybody care the way you are interested in history? >> to be perfectly honest i was probably seen as a strange dock. >> really. >> unconventional. >> why did you do anything else in high school besides this kind of stuff? >> i remember doing plays. >> interested in the theater acting. >> musicals especially which is

obviously a preview of coming on. >> 70 years ago in the factory i'm ashamed to say i didn't go and i shouldn't say, i did not know what to say to those people when i was in the same room with them but i could possibly talk about now that's terrible, i remember my mother one saying i used to be ten or 11 saying to a friend. i think there are a lot of kids. what saves me. a lot of kids get chewed up in high school.

they get chewed up and bullied and whatever but the system does it make room for individuality in whatever you want to label it i was lucky i had a savior in the library and school laura conway and she was originally from new jersey and she had been the school librarian for some time. she was wonderful i think she was a quiet rebel against the machine of high school. and of all else creativity she was a friend figure in some way. in creativity was her mantra and

she thought i was creative. we pulled off stuns and not always i look back on the pride but i always knew that i had a refuge and literally i could go to the library the backroom and i remember reading and i'll never forget she had an assistant very nice lady who i probably annoyed the hell out of. i'm sure i could be obnoxious. she was more conventional and she said something and i'll never forget this is coming we later he pulled her aside and said don't you ever and now i look back and i'm somewhat embarrassed but i realize how

incredibly lucky and what a relationship that was an on-site how close we were i graduated in 1971 she died in 1988 and i read over the phone to hurt every word that i wrote in every book that i wrote as long as she lived in a lot of words. >> why did you do. >> for civil respect for her judgment second of all i was totally enough to know to praise. i was also discovering the art

and she was very disturbing and discriminating and i came to realize and understand that she herself will his helmet and fell apart from personalities. she was a very successful professional. she had wonderful children but they were grown-up and i don't think her work fulfilled her. as she got older and isentress, now that i'm at the age i understand it better she looked a bit vicariously through my expenses. the day graduated from harvard harvard graduate knows how impossible it is to get tickets. she was.

she encouraged me to apply to harvard most improbable and we had no money and no one can imagine paying for it. being it was presumptuous to think that my grades were such. she strongly urged me too do it and i did it and i think in her recommendation and she is probably that figure and inspiration very important was the source of protection. >> let's go back to the books for a while get the book in 82, 80.86 alaska was harvard. >> the autobiography is called unlimited partners. >> that was on the verge and the eve of the 88.

he was nominated and 96 and he said in retrospect he should not ever run. >> you wrote with their names on and you credit them. >> exactly. it was an interesting experiment. i'm not sure what i would be eager to do it again. above all you authenticity and so many campaign books that are utterly predictable. i knew these two people quite well in many ways more interesting for the public personas and above all distinct.

i was out of the power couple in washington i saw barry to distinct individuals very different in many ways learn from and complemented and fill it out if you will. that is where the package came from. that meant two very distinct voices it was not my voice it was their voice. they given the limitations surprisingly well reviewed. so anyway they experimented it years later i also work with the senator on two books of humor one called laughing almost all the way to the white house which is a lot of fun and we ranked

the president is humorous. >> who was number one or two or three or the top five. >> i think there's a correlation between presidential success and a sense of humor. for example obviously reagan, lincoln, rankin, ftr who had a sense every to give us. those are essential. any politician to survive in a self-employed world, who didn't and did figure that out. jefferson had very little sense

of humor. and on the things i would hold against him. washington can allow himself, he was self-aware and how important that was to define the law office in the public. he appreciated humor and he didn't want to tell jokes and then he had pr at the sparkling in lincoln is the president is amazing. >> and a wonderful humor so dry

he wasted the humor on the people than anybody else he didn't realize he was being funny. i understood he had an experience and humor that was the most surprising he had a mad the sense of humor. and everything from fishing to his children really dry chuckle which had a story that had a gentle wit 88 and the next book. >> and long intervals. all this time in the library and

the next book one reason the book on judge washington paycheck in 1993. one but two libraries that hoover library putting a 12000-foot addition onto a building and redoing it. i was also writing to d eisenhower for the national archives which is ultimate sacrifice that i ever married for a job for archives. i lived in a hotel for 11 months i arrived on pearl harbor day in 1989 which is in retrospect seems appropriate and i was there until the birthday and i

left on october 15 in between i made a few dashing trips back i was in abilene. it is a very small town in the middle of nowhere. >> kansas. >> with a profound sense, 6000 people and i've never been there of costs consciousness a wonderful coworker and there were two restaurants in town and its upscale as much as the surrounding. >> i took the staff periodically. widow book for woodward wilson on december 28 which people attended but any of it i would find excuses and take people to

bunch because remember i was the outsider and people notice my being there. and at the same time really resilient and the 14th of october. we put 40 events together including content on race relation. herbert brought no and for members came together in abilene kansas to relive that experience. but anyway the coworker one day was one of the people at the kirby house. and "after words" i had never been in the kirby house.

>> ironically he was born in texas but he lived as a boy on the wrong side of the tracks. a small town with a large contradiction. i grew up on