owner robert mccormick. all the libraries if you can remember.

let's start at the beginning and give the years. the hoover was what year was 1987 until 1993 with a year out. for the eisenhower's centenary and then i went to reagan. what year 93 early 93 until 90? no actually was late 93 until 96. and at that point i went to ford. and was there until the end of 2001 grand rapids, michigan, that's right the uniquely and unfortunately. president ford thinking like a congressman split the facility. it's the only split facility in the system and it will never happen again. the library is located in ann arbor on the campus of the university of michigan, which makes sense. it is his alma mater and the museum is now i said, it'll never happen again. i'll correct myself because the

forthcoming obama library is um a totally different creation basically, the archives will have very little to do with it. they're building a museum a substantial museum i think on the chicago lakefront. and i believe they were over time get copies, but see. most most of the material in today's presidential library is not in the form traditionally of papers, you know a presidential diary or the president's secretary's file, which is what you would head for first if you're going to the roosevelt library go back to the the four years were what what years were were? 96 to 2001 and the next then actually i went to lawrence,

kansas. the other half of the fort gold ticket to to build and not only physically but programmatically the doorways to the politics. how long were you in lawrence kansas there for about two and a half years? and i know what you're thinking. i mean you don't stay very long. was i wasn't thinking that i people are thinking that and i was well first of all. i will get i was six years in west branch, iowa. i was six years at ford. i think that's a pretty good run but the point is you know, i never wanted to be a caretaker. i didn't want to have a job just of a job i wanted to do some substantial things and the hoovers are great example, you know, we doubled visitation. we created a whole series of

programs. we literally physically reinvented the place, etc. etc. and and i say i it wasn't i mean a lot of people who were willing to to buy into that more ambitious vision on a stand on the schedule of your life after 2001 after dull after lawrence, kansas. what the the lincoln library in springfield, illinois, which of course was not open. and it was already put it this way. it was it's not part of the nashua card system. it's run by the state of illinois, which was both its. salvation and it's burden salvation in the short term because the state of illinois at that point believe it or not was feeling flush. and the governor governor ryan very generously almost on a whim said basically, we'll pay for it. well they paid for a substantial

part of it the federal government. through senator durbin in particular senator fitzgerald um, or i'm it's patrick. and that awful. senator who succeeded who was succeeded by carol mosley braun, it's gerald. there's a fifth year. because remember there was the prosecutor. what's he wasn't there? very long. no, he was there one term one term. yeah. thank you. very decent man. he lives around here, but i think he i think he kind of got fed up. in some ways he was a man ahead of his time. he was frustrated by the way, even then that the senate was operating or not operating in any event. is it peter fitzgerald peter fitzgerald? yeah. and and paul simon and they were they were very supportive. you have to remember this project could be done to attract some negative. press, you know anything you don't know why.

particularly anything that big that visible is going to be an attractive object for politicians. politicians who want jobs who want whatever? jobs for friends in any man, i oh naively. um accepted the invitation governor mcgovich who actually recruited me? and but the people who really deserve credit julie cellini well a woman in springfield, illinois. and susan mogerman friends and and they had a vision do we had a vision? and she saw all of this. wonderful lincoln memorabilia in the in the basement of the old

state capitol. well the illinois state historical library was located under the parking. as i recall. and and it was it was wonderful stuff including one of the i think three existing four existing copies of gettysburg address in lincoln's own hand. and her vision was why are we literally? walking all of this price was historical treasure trove away where the public can't see it. and she thought of creating an effect a lincoln presidential library now, it's a bit of a misnomer in the sense that the presidential library system as we know it run by national archives consists of a very large archive. even the smallest of the time the hoover library is about seven million pages of paper. you know and obviously the later presidents have much much more.

well the lincoln collection. you know lincoln's papers have been scattered. over the years the largest collection of presidential papers is at the library of congress as you know, but so it wouldn't be a presidential library in in that quantitative sense nevertheless the basically the basis of it was the old illinois state historical library which told as the name suggests the history of illinois and then critically there would be attached a world-class state-of-the-art museum now that actually only recognized the reality of the presidential library system where 99% of the people who visit. never set foot in the archives. they go to the museum. and it seems like julie was not. in any way limited by all the

rules and regulations that the federal government imposes. upon the current library system so in essence she had a wide open field to operate. and they hired and it was very much a grassroots initiative but very very much. the singular vision of of her and a handful of other people. so anyway, they hired brc which is an exhibits firm. which is i understand it was kind of a spin-off. in some ways of the old disney imagineers, it imported a lot of that talent and and they thought outside the box. the bill reflected that fact but so did the exhibits i mean we spent an extensive. period of time on opening day and since then millions have

have flocked to springfield and overwhelmingly they come away praising. this experience now part of my job. was to use whatever credibility i had. both as a historian. it is someone who would run several libraries to counter the negative press there was a man named john wise simon. since deceased best known and admired for his role as the head of the ulysses grant papers well, anyway, john y as he was universally known i had a stick. he knew exactly what it took. to get the press to come to carbondale and interview him. is it southern illinois university? that's right. so the only university and he and that was to rail against the rubber lincolns. at the at the putative lincoln library and of course the press,

you know bit every time. and and i had to point out there were no rubber lincolns. but but anyway, it was it was kind of a you know, it was almost a game. the one thing i knew and this this applies to so many projects something is as on what the world war ii memorial is a great example here in town. yeah. in the abstract while these things are on the drawing board before people could see them and experience them. they attract a host of critics i never forget bob dole handle characteristically. wonderful. bob dole line the people who didn't want to build the world war ii we create something called save our mall, and those were joined it was we already saved it once was called world war ii. and anyway, i can't top that in springfield. but i mean the fact of the

matter is once the place was built once people saw it. and i mean they came and drove. and and my view is there are things i would do differently. they were there were areas where i thought maybe you know popular po perhaps crowded out a little bit of necessary scholarly restraint, but for the most part my test of the success of a museum and i'm talking about history museums not art museums and which are very which are very different in that museum. you it's enough to put a painting on the wall or a sculpture in a glass box people simply, you know observe and take away whatever inspiration they do. people increasingly today though particularly in a history museum they want an experience. they want to you know. look over lincoln shoulder at gettysburg.

um and beyond that. so i think you know, i think that's a legitimate kind of intellectual. inquiry and we shouldn't be ashamed recognizing it and addressing it but beyond that you leave a museum wanting to know more. how long were you there total in springfield about two and a half years i've said. i learned the the definition. of success in illinois state government is to get out before the indictments. arrive, and i just i just made it. and it's my partisan by the way last two governors. no, no, obviously, i don't want people to pack quinn is as beaten the rap but but before him when i was there you had a republican governor and then course the democratic governor. um part of a and ignoble tradition i once who went to

prison who went to prison i once for published half seriously doing a conference called. what is it about, illinois? we'll need to say the people in the room were not immune system that george ryan was the republican ryan was yeah, the republican governor. he's been secretary of state and republican governor and then of course robert you've been a congressman who's still in prison who is still in prison after that. what year did you leave there? and where did you go? well, that's interesting because that that's what i did my butch cassady and then sunday on sweep off the cliff? without butch. i mean i i left springfield. with really nothing. lined up early in 1996 now i say nothing lined up one important

thing lined up and you of course were significant part of that was i'd been offered a position at george mason university as a scholar in residence and with considerable latitude. i thought a course on the presidency for the next eight years. which i think was probably about three years too long. i think. i noticed there are changes in the student body. i mean, i i sort of naively thought that other people thought that the authorizing your model the presidency. was prevalent what's that mean and i mean by that? that in the 20th century. the presidency evolved from being an administrative to a position of advocacy particularly moral. advocacy that power flowed to washington. and probably because of the depression because of two world

wars. that that powell was sentra personalized in the presidency. and that presidents who could take advantage of that? and above all take advantage of the media opportunities. harry truman said the chief function of the modern presidency is persuasion. what was the great persuader? so tr fdr wilson truman kennedy to learn to be johnson reagan, but i mean the idea strong presidents presidents who put their stamp upon the age presidents who overalled congress presidents who dictated in a very real sense to the media and they had these tools i mean richard nixon his weight is 1970. could call three men in three towers in manhattan. the networks and have an

audience of 70 million people. to listen to whatever you had to say that same night. and the only counter to that was you know? when we eric sebright on cbs offering what was called instant analysis. and that in many ways was the apogee of the sweating your slash roosevelt model of the presidency by contrast. and i think this began to reflect itself in in the in the opinions of students. first of all, there is definitely a libertarian streak. among young people today there is an almost intrinsic. distrust of government a disbelief for example that social security will be there let alone i mean their grandparents voted.

faithfully democratic is proud of the new deal coalition to preserve the gains. they had made during the new deal well. 50 60 years later the new deal is something a name in the history books. it's ronald reagan. not franklin roosevelt who defined their view? of government so you know that that really crept. into the classroom and that's fine. i mean i was perfectly comfortable with you want a range of opinion, but i noticed at the end the i think i probably got a little stale. you know, you become the prisoner of your yellow legal pad notes. which is a the great danger i think in teaching. but i also noticed to be perfectly honest with you at the end of the very end. there were people who were just not interested there there were people who were sitting in front

of a screen. all evening and i don't know they would say i doubt if they were taking notes, you know, i mean, we've become prisoners of screens. i am not a one-night. i don't think i never thought of myself as one but i will sound like one when i rail against the negative impact impact of the of the internet. on life generally on politics in particular and i suspect on on academic and academics. we'll come back to all this but there's a book we missed in there. what year did you do the colonel mccormick book? and where did you live? and why did you do that book? well, i was in abilene during the eisenhower's center area and the hoover reconstruction. and i was contacted. by jack mccutcheon jack mccutcheon's father was a

pulitzer prize winning cartoonist for the chicago tribune? and jack had become sort of graduated to archivist if you will historian of the paper in those days all the archives were in tribune tower in downtown, chicago. and he had read the hoover book. and i suspect he never said this but i i think he thought boy if this guy can make hoover look sympathetic then then maybe he could do the same for the colonel who lent himself to caricature by the way who wasn't robert r mccormick was for 40 years synonymous with the chicago tribune the world's greatest newspaper in popular legend. he is a bombastic xenophobic right of a till of the hun. caricature his rivals in fact that the chicago daily news came

up with a long-running cartoon series about colonel mccormick which which played off of this? um now the you run into caricature. you know bells ought to go off. there is something about this personality vivid enough. unique enough distinctive enough and perhaps interesting enough inspire caricature character after all caricature is a form of flannery. and so i was open i wasn't eager. i mean i the colonel was of anti-british and i'm a anger foam or phone as you know a great lover of all things. british and he was certainly

outspoken. for example in his opposition to us involvement in world war ii which seemed to me to be terribly wrong-headed. anyway, i mean i bought into enough of the caricature to be leery but i mean jack said why did you come into town? one day i should point out by the way my best friend and college roommate. deep chapman was and is a dash we syndicated columnist for the tribute. so there was that connection as well. anyway mccutchen said come into the tower. and look at some of this stuff. no one had seen the paper the colonel died in appropriate enough on april fool's day 1955. fact it was said that many people attended the funeral just to make sure that he wasn't wasn't pulling a joke on them. and even i went downtown i

looked at this stuff and it only took one visit to say this this dynamite. i mean they had oral histories. so, you know with people who obviously gone they had the kernels own. i mean the colonel was his opinionated in his private correspondence as he was on his editorial page and you know, that's just you know, that's a biographer's dream. and he was he was colorful. he was outrageous. he was flamboyant, but i thought i saw. beyond that the shy socially awkward rather unveiled second son of a horrible. dragon mother and ineffectual father. i mean the family i think probably first ignited my interest. anyway, i said this is intriguing. um, and i learned after the fact i wonder why they were so.

see the tributions 150th anniversary was coming up. and the last thing the world needed was another corporate history of the tribune. so the alternative was well, maybe enough time has gone by you know, 40 years on that we can approach. the otherwise radioactive ghost of the kernel i learned after the fact he's now gone so i can tell the story stan cook. it was a delightful. thoroughly midwestern ceo of tribune company. stan cook called the archives. before they agreed to give me access and said hi. what's in there that's going to embarrass us. and and there was a safe. what okay that had, you know the goods and actually i found more than the didn't say, but they said well, you know. the colonel had a mistress he

said well, you know who's on the tribune payroll? i said well, you know we can deal with that said yeah, but she's you know stayed on the paper laugh he died. well, you know, we could we could deal with that that well the colonel's father died of syphilis. what they didn't say was just to give you a flavor of this family this bizarre family. the colonel's father robert sanderson mccormick with the papers influence bought diplomatic appointments. he was kind of near to well, so he was made ambassador to russia. which which made the kernel later on befriended the tsar. and became the only american correspondent on eastern front and world war. i well anyway, okay, so needless to say the colonel's parents did not have a and idyllic marriage. his mother who really was a dragon. right to let it to him one day to the to her son.

bertie as he was known he was the second son. he had older brother madill for who was being groomed to take over madill subsequently became a united states senator from illinois that the madill school of journalism at northwest. well, that's his grandfather. joseph madill who was lincoln's contemporary. and whose house the colonel rebuilt and turned around because he didn't like noise from roosevelt road. anyway, madill became a senator had one term lost in the primary committed suicide, which was a family secret for for many years. any event the this only reinforced one day though, the letter comes from from madill's daughter. who's the colonel's mother? i i have the most remarkable news. written in almost jubilant spirit your father has syphilis. the reason why this was good news was because kate mccormick

had convinced herself that there was a she put at a soft spot in the mccormick brain and that this was there was this generic, you know condition. well anyway. just a complete this the kernel defied his mother by following in love. with his cousins wife who was among other things eight years his senior? i mean any freudian would perceive maternal instincts and you know, the kernel never had children. i think it's because he had such a miserable childhood of his own. but anyway, so amy adams. to the colonel's mother referred to her as the old church. there were these wonderful letters where she's railing against the old tart. she's not never going to get a sticker by furniture etc. so what does the mother do she wants to separate her son from

the old dirt so she pulls strings with the tsar of russia. and they send birdie. via, london to saint petersburg to to be a correspondent, you know get him away from the old turn. what she didn't know of course the tsar agreed. was you know 10 days after he say old for london the old heart followed by pre-arrangement. they were married. very quietly in london and anyway, you can imagine but i mean this family i remember i called the first chapter splendid monsters because that's really what they were and he he grew up. surrounded by these people which would explain and probably almost justify almost any eccentricity, you know of his own in in later years. what i thought what i i guess what i have a talent for.

is singing in a sense the emotionally deprived. poignant see i look at robert mccormick. and so i'm not just a crazed right winger who despised his groton classmate franklin roosevelt. the day that fdr died the colonel went around tribune tower handing out $10 bills. to people he called home and his second wife. marilyn said you know, what should we do? we have a dinner party schedule tonight. and he said that's fine. we'll go ahead with it. but we it we won't drink a mantrache. i said i would i wouldn't want people thinking that we were drinking a month for today. and then she said well, what about the flag, you know on the flagpole outside the library, you know, they supposed to find half step. he said that's fine. there's no one. i'd rather fly a flag of hops to

have four. so anyway, i mean that's you know, you could you could you could dwell on that. and see the kernel as a grotesque. or without neglecting that side of him you could look for. the more human and vulnerable side, and i thought this was a man who had no family. of his own really i found the notes. compiled by his doctor. i think they were given to me at his deathbed. in which his second wife marilyn? is saying oh birdie, you know, you're going to die. why are you taking so long? i mean, okay, because me to say she wanted the tribute and the other room is the management of the tribune scared to death that she's going to get this sick man to sign away the newspaper. i mean, it's a comedy but it's a tragedy, you know at the same time. but anyway the scene that will stick with me.

every christmas eve. where was bernie mccormick? not at home. he was in the printing press. in formal formal addressed walking up and down wishing each of the men a merry christmas. i mean he had this very paternalistic since that was his family like the first division with which he fought and world war one. they were his family. well that humanizes him. that's why george washington forget false teeth or sally fairfax, you know, i mean the way you humanize washington, you know is to follow him day by day through the last year his life when he's most vulnerable. i mean, so i guess that's the first thing that i and ultimately the last thing. that i work for and accusing a biographical subject if i don't think that's there. you know, they're very very few people. with whom i suppose.

it's like marriage. there are very few people in the world with whom you want to live in the kind of enforced intimacy that biography requires. what year was that book out? that book appeared in 1997. what book was next? well let's see. rockefeller and that year was? 2014 it took 14 years to do the mccormick could take it seven. but again, i was working full time. and the rockefeller were the first half of those 14 years. i was working full-time. so but again that and then it

became a course or question of traveling to new york. the rockefeller archives which at that point were being opened. there was a and earlier biographer and many carrie reich who wrote a wonderful? first volume of what was projected to be? two or even three volume life published by doubleday um, and and it took rockville up to his election as governor of new york in 1958, and then tragically carrie went to the doctor one day. was diagnosed i believe it was stomach cancer and and passed away within a matter of weeks. and so he'd left his unfinished. so, you know when i talk to publishers the question was well, you know, do you want to finish? carrie's book i said with all due respect.

i want to do the whole life. i think i'd have my own take on it. and and that's i you know, i recommend kerry's book to anyone. it's it's wonderful book and it's a great that we didn't. get a sequel. but any event it took 14 years it took more. i think it it shortened my life but 14 years. there are some projects that i was getting older. for one thing and you know you there's probably a certain limitations. to how many jobs at any given time that you can do justice to how old are you today? 64 how do you different do you look at life at age 64 than you did it? say 30? oh. well, i tell you one thank you for not asking the question the stupidest single question that ever gets asked and it gets asked over and over again and

usually to people older than me. but you know, it's you know, what would you do would you do anything differently, usually they talk to someone who's about it was always methuselah and looks every day of his 103 years and and they want to know, you know, what's the secret of longevity as if there is such a thing and the second thing is, you know implicit in that is would you do anything differently and there's bizarrely enough there are people out there who think you're supposed to say. no that it's somehow demonstration of confidence or strength and something what that what that's it. it says in 103 years in my case 64 years. never misjudged someone you never said something you wish you could take back. i mean, it's just so monumentally. on learned i mean if anything we

all because we're human are going to make mistakes. and the only justification is that you learn from them. so you hopefully don't repeat them. but if you you know at the end of your life. your self-satisfied enough it's one thing to say, i can't change the past. none of us can change the past. and it's quite different from saying i wouldn't change the past if i could. i think hopefully the most important thing you weren't is humility. you you why? you're caught up. particularly when you're young the very passion. drives you to write a book or run a museum or i mean you can think of a dozen other fields that that quality. narrows in some ways your perception. you don't realize that there are

other people with equal passion. who might do the same job? differently who might reach different conclusions? you worry certainly as a writer. you worry entirely too much about what review is. say i mean they're just so many reasons. i mean everything it seems to be about life. should be point in the direction of of learning. to some degree your limitations the fact that other people may be right and you may be wrong. and and a generalized humility. i mean, for example, i mean i can tell you. i used to tell myself. well, you know it's important to live through an institution you put everything you have in an institution and that's fine. i mean, that's a good way of accept.

if you make the mistake of equating if you make the mistake of equating yourself with the institution, then you are you're bound for disappointment because i can tell you more than one of the museums on which i lavished. time and an attention i have for example been completely redone. and arguably improved, you know since my version of the history, so, you know, it's it's an obvious lesson. it's a lesson and some people never or when we when did you receive your biggest lesson and humility, or when were you humbled by something? or when did you say to yourself? i need to be more humble. i actually you know, i don't think and it sounds like vanity to say it. i don't think i was. ever self-satisfied and i was certainly that never.

in that sense condescending. i mean i was we're very early. but those were those were traits that you really you know actively wanted to to avoid people who thought they were better. than other people i mean those are villains. for example with age i realize where i politics come from. i mean i was nine years old. sitting in front of the tv watching the match on washington. and i remember how profoundly it affected me. and i don't mean to pretend that i had any great grasp of the larger issues. but talk about good guys a bad guys. that was a year, of course a birmingham. and then in 64, you know, you

had the three civil rights workers in in mississippi and viola yield. so i mean names that are largely forgotten today. but which were very very vivid. and i remember and and politically it played itself out in the rockefeller goldwater contest in 1964 rockefeller from a family and political tradition of being very strongly pro civil rights. goldwater for principled reasons certainly having nothing to do with racism, but who called it a question parts of the of the civil rights bill of 1964. clearly the goldwater view prevailed the republican party became increasingly southern the southern strategy came into play

etc. etc. something that lbj and of all people predicted at the time. he signed the bill. so, i mean that it's funny. i don't know when people form. are political views i think lots of people? at least initially inherit them from their parents. in much of the same way that i think lots of people inherit the religious affiliations. and it's the business of living. to determine whether in fact you know. after much experience and reflection. those are the values that you want to espouse or that is the the creed that you want to pray to. so in this november 2017, where do you live? i mean, grand rapids, michigan. and what are you doing? in the tallest building in town the tallest building between

chicago detroit a building overlooking the grave site gerald and betty ford. and from which i see their grave site as i sit at my desk. writing a biography of president ford which by their nature of things is also mrs. ford story. a book i've been working on for in earnest now for three years, although before that actually took about two years to interview about 160. for associates so one reason why the book will take less time than the rockefeller. is that that oral history portion for the most part had already been completed? before i knew i was going to write. the biography i remember the day of the funeral. in january 2007 and the president asked me to deliver the final eulogy after jimmy carter. and donald rumsfeld in the

carrots in grand rapids, and we were riding back from the church to the internment on the grounds of the museum. huge crowds and this building was under construction at the time and every floor they were construction workers. would remove the helmets and it was very moving. and i remember literally standing at the gravesite working on my shoulder and saying something i'm going to live in that. building and site would have it it. i'm living in the building and completing the biography so it's kind of a you know, coming full circle the biography of gerald r ford will be completed and available when the hope is and it's and i'm on target will be completed in time for publication of just before the 2020. presidential election why then? well, i think attention will be riveted on. the office and i think the

contrast between afford. for the president for the man for the republican and shall we say? current occupants of the white house will be noticeable personal questions have you ever driven never? that's a good question and i never and i never that's something i still i never fail to be amazed that people are amazed. that i've never driven it's as if you think everyone drives? and i guess i understand that turns out somewhere. i saw god knows where the number comes from something like 25 million americans. who are autophobic? literally would not get behind the wheel of a car and you know. it's very important in life to know your limitations. we're talking earlier about humility. i knew very early. that i should not be driving

your car even if i could drive a car the way my mind works. i suspect i would probably. take some innocent bystanders just because i wasn't paying any attention. to the road when did you use a computer for the first time? i can take that too. 2001 when you use it to write with your your books with like, oh, i don't i write by i write long hand. i use a computer. i i was always resistant. and something in me is still. old-fashioned enough trogbodetic enough to to question the legitimacy of research done on the internet, but i've obviously discovered it is a an exhaustible source of a regional

primary source material what used to be exclusively found in a holland your box in a library. so i understand that and i'm utilizing that but i write in long hand. and the curious way the reason i started is, you know, i was a speaker for a number of years. and that's a different kind of writing. who'd you write for? oh gosh, i wrote well i sat by writing for ed brooke. by senator from massachusetts and then bob dole for many years and elizabeth dole and pete wilson. and then later on i had the opportunity to write for former presidents reagan and ford also wrote. my token democrat and the man who taught me more about government than anyone else kevin white the mayor of boston who deserved a biography the very colorful complicated fascinating man personification, you know those lindsey era.

sort of street corner liberal mayors who over time became somewhat disillusioned. and the mayor's case his great tragedy was. for about three hours one day during the 1972 democratic convention. he thought he was going to be george mcgovern's running mate. and he'd been offered the job. and then members of the massachusetts delegation. including so we're told kennedy's and and john kenneth galbraith um, put the guy boss. on mayor white and thereafter he lived with the sense of what if he was interested running for president. in 1976 i remember him telling me to be carter came to town and all these other people and he said god i'm better than them. i mean he he and his great

tragedy was he had a talent that was too large and a vision for the for the stage that he was afforded. and then of course the blessing crisis erupted. and it destroyed any national kansas he had and i think he i don't say he became bitter. he i think he probably. succumbed to the natural political inclination, which is to stay too long at the fair. in the last term. he probably shouldn't have run but i was there i threw it all and it was it was. fascinating one day there have been a tax revolt in massachusetts something called proposition two and a half. which put a straight jacket on municipalities tax rates? and of course people in the state suffer inordinately from high property taxes. anyway boston was hit hard.

and i will never forget. he spent most of his time not at city hall francis parkman the great historian his house. was owned by the city. the parkman house became the mayor's home away from home. and that's where we were treated to francis parkman study every year on new year's weekend. we write the state of the city address. in parkman's study and it was anyway. learning process what friday afternoon it got so bad that the police? and firemen we're blocking the summer tunnel. remember the tunnels that go over to east boston and logan airport. and this had really reached obviously a crisis point. the phone rings the mayor. is close to me as you are? he's on the phone to his. chief of police and he says here's what we're going to do. you know, we're going to take

people from desk jobs. we're going to put them out on the street and he's going down this list no notes. just you know, this is he's obviously thought about this and we're gonna do this and this and this i'm going to sign these people and some people it but i tell you one thing said i tell you one group. we're not going to get rid of. said we're not getting rid of any kevin white people. well by that time the mayor had a machine. allegedly about 5,000 city workers. they were kevin white people. and it was fasting to in retrospect. he had started out. he was a woman who beat louise day hicks, you know, the the personification of racism in the north and and he was no pun intended the great white hope. of urban liberals and over 16 years he morphed. i mean, he said he never changed but the experience of governing boston. changed him to the point where he was mayor daley.

you know at the end and i had a front row seat. i was in washington. i did all this work over the telephone and one day the boston globe. they had something called the waste watch. white team ran a front page expose of the out-of-town no, no bid contract speechwriter. and this is you know supposed to be a scandal. well $10,000 a year had been earmarked for me the fact that matter is a speechwriter would cost 30 or 35. and he was getting better. we're anyway. and again the lesson of the mayor i saw him a few days later. i was in boston. and he was he was beanies. he said well you see the article in the globe. that's it. he said tell you we don't throw wolves. we don't throw anyone to the

wolves around here and it become a badge of honor. it bonded us, you know, because he obviously look about the globe was out to get him and you know, i'd suppose anyway, but he was the most action the most interesting person the most complex person i've ever worked with and i at least by that time i was old enough. and and i think hopefully intelligent enough to know watch this guy. you're gonna you're gonna learn. something from him what's been the impact of religion on your life? you know, it's interesting. i was a born into. the congregational church sagging the choir attended services and subsequently and in fact today still for you, you know, that's probably that's the religious tradition say unit

check, you know, the unitarian church within the famous line. what is it the the fatherhood of god the brotherhood of man and the neighborhood of boston and parochials. it sounds it probably has something to it speaks to me more. i'm fascinated by catholicism. and the papacy and you know the history of and i probably know more trivia about that than that almost anything else and and i love this pope. you know who? whoever thought and i just hope he lives long enough. to a point enough cardinals, which is i think clearly his his intent. to make sure at the very least. that there's no backsliding. and that a more generous inclusive.

optimistic approach to faith and that that's very appealing. i have problems with miracles. i'm just contemporary enough. i suppose. i'm not again. hopefully i'm humble enough. not to deny. i'm just i have trouble embracing wholeheartedly. but obviously, you know you in wonderful thing about my strain of protestantism is you don't need to believe in miracles. to believe that to believe in something larger and better than oneself and to believe that life itself. exists to be lived in service. to others and that christ was real.

and his example can be and should be a contemporary. and something to be emulated. what impacted did your heart attack have on you? surprisingly little not sure talked as would say not nearly enough i had. i was right after thanksgiving 2010. so what we can dc? slogging through the rockefeller book and as you know i had been invited several friends had taken pity on me and invited me to thanksgiving dinner and i was appreciative but didn't accept so i took a few days but after a few days. um, i a mass of people began. noticing that they hadn't heard from me and one thing i do another. and john mcconnell good friend than a speechwriter in the bush

white house. lived in the neighborhood and volunteered to check came by and i don't remember. i actually remember very little of the proceeding three or four days turned out i'd had a heart attack. and i was a very good hospital excellent hospital a less than a mile from my home. and that's what we went. and i remember thinking at the time. oh god. i'm going to sit in the you know. waiting room of an urban hospital for hours. filling out paper and of course, i didn't wait at all. they took me immediately and i subsequently was told it was because i was having trouble breathing. so i mean that you know, that's one way of cutting through the through the paper chase. and so i went in and i knew really nothing. i didn't have any. fear any particular sense of dread. i mean i knew. in a very disembodied way. that there was apparently

something serious. but i also remember i don't forget that night. turner classic movies which is a godsend. and a wonderful escape from the horrors of contemporary life they showed my favorite movie. at 10:30 that night citizen kane. and i took it as an omen. of course in some ways i was wrong because the next thing i had another heart attack. add a clutch of blood clots one of which knocked out my spleen and the other as i was told at the time inaccurately. had knock out a kidney. and probably taken away the use of my left leg. dinner after that i was returned to my room. and and i could have been there

five minutes and nurses came in. and said they were moving me to intensive care. yeah that said. and i actually meant well she said you know. don't think that's because you've taken a turn for the words or anything like that. okay. so anyway, i i spent the next three days there. and you know the story people started calling. they said calling when i was you know, i don't know how they found out. but anyway, mrs. ford called it's last time i talked with her. and other members of the ford family, david mccalla. very thoughtfully called he had a stint. don and was offering reassurance. in fact, i never had any kind of surgery. never had. so anyway but eventually the real problem oh my neglective mentioned on my third day. they took me up for more tests and it turned out they found a

bleeding ulcer a significant bleeding ulcer which may very well have been the original. complaint anyway the thing that actually the only physically uncomfortable. really i wasn't in pain, but i had these killer hiccups, which i'm since weren't off a company heart problems. and they were not like any hiccups you'd ever had. they literally you were strangling. so that obviously was an enemy of sleep and they were getting more and more concerned one way friday. i've gone in on tuesday friday in intensive care. finally. not at all. open my eyes five o'clock. there's this great earth mother nurse standing there. and she says well, you know you really put the fear of god in the you know in the poor. switchboard operator or whatever the equivalent of the switchboard is and so what do you well president bush had

called. and they didn't put him through which one w. and and they didn't put him through. because i thought it was more important for me to sleep. and and then it dawned on her just think he was hanging up that it really was, you know, president bush. was it a holster and sonya we laughed about it later on we talked about it, but i came out of that my i swear my first sort of conscious coherent thought. after i realized you know, what had happened was.