we're funded by these television companies and more, including comcast. >> oh, you think this is just a community center? no. it's way more than that. >> comcast is partnering with a thousand community centers so students from low income families have the tools to be ready for anything. >> comcast supports c-span along with these television providers, giving you a front row seat to democracy. early in january, "usa today" released a poll taking a look at this idea if there's a mental health crisis in the united states. just to show you that headline from the pages of "usa today." overwhelming majority says yes, that the u.s. is facing a mental health crisis. when you break down the actual data from the poll, they ask specifically this question about a mental health crisis. overwhelmingly people who responded to the poll said yes, 88% of those.

10% say no. 2% say they weren't sure if that was the case. if you break it down by political party in the united states, 80% of republicans saying when it comes to if there's a mental health crisis, answering yes. 91% of democrats expressing that sentiment as well. and 93% of independents. there was a hearing on capitol hill which you can find at c-span.org. a paper in erie, pennsylvania, picked this up, saying doctors told senators in a committee that there were issues long before the pandemic. but covid has certainly made this issue a lot worse. in that senate committee, the focus was on solving the nation's mental health and substance abuse problems. they heard from someone from the american psychological association. part of his testimony, the u.s. has fared more poorly than most with the rate of suicide

attempts higher than any other wealthy nation on this planet. again, you can find that hearing at c-span.org and at our app at c-span now. but here is mitch prinstein from that hearing yesterday. >> this is an issue that began well before the pandemic with millions of americans experiencing emotional and behavioral symptoms that we could have prevented. the u.s. has fared more poorly than most, with the rate of suicide attempts in the united states higher than in any other wealthy nation on the planet. there is simply not enough mental health care providers. there's not enough investment in science to use what we know to prevent mental illness. today only one of seven americans with mental health or substance abuse disorders is receiving treatment scientifically proven to work. of course the covid-19 pandemic has made this much worse. in 2021 alone, children's hospitals saw a 42% increase in self-injury and suicide cases.

school principals report their staff are overwhelmed with children experiencing apathy, hopelessness, anxiety and thoughts of death. to say this is a mental health crisis is not enough. this is an accumulation of decades of neglect, stigma, and unequal treatment of mental health compared to physical health. now we are at a turning point like we have not seen since world war ii when our country elected to make a serious investment in mental health by building the va system, investing in a mental health workforce and forming the national institute of mental health. that was over 70 years ago. the time has come again. today we know that bifurcating physical and mental health is based on antiquated notions. it's time to create a mental health system that reflects the 21st century and we have no time to waste. >> we'll show you more of that hearing as the morning goes along. but we're inviting you in this first hour to give your thoughts on this idea of the state of mental health and suicide and related issues when it comes --

particularly how it's been exacerbated by the pandemic. again, 202-748-8000 for those in eastern and central time zones. 202-748-8001 in the mountain and pacific time zones. more data from that poll that took -- that was last january that came out from "usa today," it goes back to december 2020 saying that it was back then that a majority, 51%, said the u.s. would get back to normal in anywhere from a few months to 10% by the end of next year. a few months have passed. the end of next year has passed. and here we are. the end of 2021 was characterized by the omicron variant running rampant and a major turn from optimism to pessimism. nearly two-thirds of respondents say when it comes to the state of the united states that we'll be back to normal in a few years or never. again, that just gives you some of the background there. some of you responding to

facebook, to this idea of mental health and substance abuse issues in the united states. maria saying on facebook it's a terrible impact, the level of anxiety and depression is all-time high. so far experts refuse to talk about it. ronald, understanding the seriousness of the disease itself is one thing. but seeing how people around me have reacted to it demonstrates a lack of mental toughness on behalf of many who could and should do better but take the easy way out. you can add to that facebook page or post on twitter if you wish. james in pittsburgh, pennsylvania, you start us off this morning, good morning. go ahead. >> caller: good morning, thanks for taking my call. my thing with substance abuse, i don't like calling it a disease. you know what i mean? i think it should be more of awareness to when it comes to

drugs. >> do you think those issues have been made worse because of impact by the pandemic? >> caller: here's my thing, without being disrespectful to anybody, to the viewers, or to anybody. my opinion is, i'm sorry, i do not believe there ever was a coronavirus. i don't believe there ever was a -- i'm saying that's my opinion. i'm 55 years old. i -- >> you're calling in also talking about what you think about the impact of the pandemic on mental health and substance abuse. you're saying none that have exists? >> caller: well, my thing is, to tell the truth, right, i've been -- i od'd a couple of weeks ago on heroin. it was the first time i ever did that, it was an experience.

i did too much, i fell out, man. it was an experience, man. you know what i mean? and i don't know what to say about that. >> okay. we'll hear from chris in new york, good morning, you're next. >> caller: hi, how are you doing today? >> well, thanks, how about yourself? >> caller: i'm doing fine. this pandemic is really getting really -- the stress from it is getting out there. my sister-in-law as a social worker where they do counseling and all. their office now has gone where they take appointments from 7:00 in the morning to 10:00 at night and they're doing it seven days a week. and not only are the people coming in wore out, but the social workers are getting wore out. i think the pandemic is just -- and you can walk around, when you do your grocery shopping, i'm ex-military, we had that term, the thousand-yard stare. you can see it in a lot of

people's faces these days. >> as far as the appointments that your sister -- i think it was your sister-in-law, that was a drastic increase to what she saw before the pandemic, or was she seeing a lot even before then? >> caller: i'm saying, as this pandemic has come on. they were able to work and have a normal workweek, where now they're just totally overwhelmed with the people that are getting controlled by this. >> that was chris there talking about his family's experience, you can add that to the mix as well, if you wish, this morning. from florida, we'll hear next from tom. tom, hello. >> caller: hello, thank you. i like the fact that we're talking about it. this is a problem that's decades in the making. but i wish we would talk about the number of children in school that are getting ritalin. that's about my only point. >> okay, but as far as the issues, the underlying issues of mental health and substance abuse, how do you think the pandemic has impacted that?

>> caller: no doubt, hugely. but the reason for substance abuse is contributed -- there's some sort of a correlation between the number of children getting ritalin which might be as high as a third of our population. and i'm 62, thank goodness i never saw that stuff. >> when you make those assumptions as far as the connection between ritalin use and drug abuse, how do you make that, how do you connect those numbers, how did you come to that conclusion? >> caller: i think we're not allowing individuals to be individuals. >> what do you mean by that? >> caller: i think that we are trying to do drugs that are trying to control behavior and behavior needs to be nurtured and not chemically induced. >> okay. ray is next. newark, california. ray, good morning, you're next. >> caller: good morning, thank you. well, you know, i do think the

pandemic has had an impact on mental health and has generated more substance abuse. we've had more opioid deaths this year -- i mean, this past year, than the previous year. but, you know, overall, the quality of life here in the united states has just really plummeted. it's been decades, probably since ronald reagan, that the congress began really favoring the rich and the large corporations, some of whom don't pay any taxes at all, but as a whole will complain about, you know, poor people paying taxes, some people are working two jobs still -- three jobs, and still don't have enough money to pay rent. >> so how does all that relate to the issues of mental health and substance abuse today?

>> caller: it can't be healthy, you know. i mean, there's the atmosphere of what we create as far as our society. and how, you know, sort of the pandemic sort of pulled the bottom out of the whole thing. you know, the safety net, which is very sparse. >> talk a little bit about that. what do you mean by that? >> caller: well, i mean, for instance, unless things have changed, what was the food stamp program provides about half a month's worth of food. you know, and then you have to do something else for the rest of the month, i know not what. we have so many children on the food program at the schools, because we have a problem with hunger in this country, you know? and the pandemic just i think pushed some people over the edge because they ended up having to cope with more, even more than

they were coping while they were struggling before the pandemic. we also have the shortage of nurses. and we have a shortage of doctors. however, if you go to school to become either one, you're going to be in debt for a lot of money, you know? so the pandemic just sort of, you know, opened the -- pulled away the scab on that. you know, including public health. >> okay. >> caller: during the bush administration it was hollowed out, all public health was talking about was terrorism. >> okay, that's rae in newark, california giving thoughts on the impacts of the pandemic on mental health and substance abuse. one of the people commenting on the state of children and the state of their mental health was the u.s. surgeon general, vivek murthy, dr. murthy made this statement in december of last year, saying that mental health challenges in children,

adolescents, young adults, are real and widespread. even before the pandemic, an alarming number of young people struggled with feelings of helplessness, depression, thoughts of suicide and rates have increased over the past decade. the covid-19 pandemic further altered their experiences at home, school, and the community. the effect on their mental health has been devastating. the future wellbeing of our country depends on how we support and invest in the next generation, especially in this moment as we work to protect the health of americans in th face of a new variant. we also need to focus on how to emerge stronger on the other side. more that have is available on the website of the hhs. when it comes to those impacts, this is from our facebook page, a lot, it's certainly put a spotlight on the lack of mental health services in the u.s. ruth on facebook saying the impact has been a negative one. darryl in philadelphia, let's hear from you, good morning.

>> caller: hello, thanks darnell. >> oh, darnell, i'm sorry. >> caller: no crime, no crime. i believe socialzation/mental health has been greatly impacted by the internet. the internet, which everybody will acknowledge has created political silos, i believe has also created personal cocoons. of courseth been greatly exacerbated by the coronavirus where it was mandated that you stay in your room. and thus losing touch with that socialization that i believe is a fundamental part of mental health. people no longer talk eye to eye anymore. our institutions, my favorite restaurant of 50 years was closed down, to go there and talk with the waitress, but now i'm forced into my room again, semi by mandate, by the coronavirus, but even before the

coronavirus people were building their personal cocoons and they were not socializing with people eye to eye. and i think that's an obvious part of mental health. i have to say, the beauty queen who committed suicide, to imagine that somebody in that stature would have mental health issues to the point of suicide is just mind-boggling, just mind-boggling. but again, the one thing that has power in this whole conversation is the internet. people can stay in their room, in their own cocoon, not only their political silo but their own personal cocoon and lose touch with reality. >> okay, that's darnell from pennsylvania, mentioning that the winner of the miss usa pageant, a profile on the news website of philadelphia, wpvi, on monday saying it spotlights the importance of mental health.

she died at 30 on sunday morning saying she jumped from her manhattan apartment building and was pronounced dead at the scene. quote, we share the passing of our beloved chelsie. what we see is people are functioning with their depression, going to work, they're still taking care of their children, their family, they're doing these things but internally they are struggling. that was dr. george james, a licensed marriage and family therapist and assistant professor at jefferson university, wpvi out of philadelphia if you want to read more there. mark in napa, california, good morning. >> caller: oh, good morning. thank you for taking my call. i think this pandemic, and i use the term loosely there, has affected everybody one way or another. i remember when it was first starting, going to the grocery store and having the grocery store just full of people, but

you could hear a pin drop, nobody was talking, it seemed like people were trying to take as little breath as possible so they wouldn't get germs. i met an old friend i hadn't seen in a couple of years and even though i hadn't seen him in a couple of years, he didn't want to talk to me very long. so it's affected all of us. out in california, it didn't make sense to me why the gyms were closed because they promote health. and sometimes it's good to -- well, it's good to break a sweat and get some energy out, hit the punching bag, hit the weights, and it boosts your immune system. also it didn't make any sense that the churches are closed here in california when that promotes spiritual growth and hope, that the liquor stores were all open, which carried nothing about cigarettes, beer, whiskey, pornography, that was all open. so that just didn't make sense

to me. so that's all. >> okay. from dorie, spokane, washington, you're next. >> caller: yes, hello, i'm going to dash right in and talk as quickly as i can. my daughter is 62. her husband skipped three years ago. left her with -- in bad shape all the way around. she's had lost babies and so on. her doctor told me three years ago to go home, i'm 900 miles away, he told me go home, forget about her, cut off her phone and forget about my only child. i have tried since to at least pay bills for her. i'm running out. i have cancer. and heart failure. i'm almost 90. i sent her the books by -- "the

end of mental illness." i sent it to her doctor. i sent it to my doctor. i sent it to the counselor across the street from her. her neighbors shun her. she has left voicemails for me. she doesn't operate a phone to keep in contact. i never know if she's alive. i still at this time have not heard of her since before christmas. the police went there, said she was there. >> does she live there in washington state or does she live in another state? >> no. 900 miles away. 900 miles away in alameda, california. her doctor took me into his office and told me to forget about her. that's what they do. >> why do you think the doctor gave you that advice? >> caller: he said she was not listening to anybody. she has a mental problem accepting the fact that she has

any problem with this. and her husband skipped. he was unkind to her physically and mentally. and her neighbors will not talk. she'll call me and say, no one will talk to me. she's terribly lonely. she has some disabilities, physically as well as mentally. the police say i cannot do anything. i finally got a call from somebody who was in contact with adult protective services. i don't know whether she will accept them. i've tried to get phones for her, she won't let anybody in the house. she would not let me in the house when i visited her there before covid. i cannot travel there now because of my health and because of covid. i cannot get her to get her shots. i cannot have -- i'm running out of money. i have finally had to put my house in a trust so that it doesn't go to probate because i can't even rely on her to accept

my help when i have done anything, the best i can do for her is pay bills and so on, then she tells me i'm trying to run her life, run her life and run her life, or what i do is wrong and when i do hear from her, at this moment, i do not know whether she is -- has accepted help from the adult protective services. i do not know from day to day if she is still alive. sometimes she'll call me at 1:00 in the morning from a borrowed phone. sometimes she has a phone of her own. i have spent thousands of dollars trying to get phones for her, i've sent her phones and everything else. >> okay. dorie, we appreciate it, i hope these things get resolved for you in some way, shape, or form. but thank you for calling, thank you for sharing that with the audience. benny is next, stockton, california, good morning.

>> caller: good morning. thanks for taking my call. my heart goes out to that lady. i want to say first of all that everyone should get the shot. on the 20th of january, i was tested positive for covid. because i've had the shot, i'm quarantined at home. i'm on dialysis. i turned 70 years old in december. and just being in quarantine is depressing. no one to speak to, can't have visitors. it is depressing. and i can understand the mental health aspect of it. i would admonish everyone to get the shots because the shots, if i didn't have the shot, i think i would be dead. >> so are you saying that given your situation, you can't

interact with people face-to-face, but what about phones or other means? >> caller: i can call, but all of my family lives in texas, and i do communicate with them. i think i got this virus at church. so i'm not really sure where i got it. but i do quarantine. and i just thank god that i did get the shots. i got the booster. so i am quarantining at home. >> okay. that's benny in california. again, many people sharing their stories, particularly when it comes to mental health issues, substance abuse issues, because of the pandemic. and you're invited to tell us what you think about the state of the u.s. when it comes to those issues. 202-748-8000 in eastern and central time zones, 202-748-8001 in mountain and pacific time

zones. facebook and twitter also available if you want to make your thoughts known. there's a profile of one of those people who testified in front of the senate hearing on one of these issues, it's picked up by wavy in norfolk, virginia, saying claire rainier gave congressional lawmakers a glimpse of what it's like to be a teen struggling with mental health, quote, struggling each night, it was terrifying to know i was physically harming myself and still unsure if i needed help. if you want to see her full testimony, go to our website at c-span.org or go to our app at c-span now where that hearing is held. here is a bit of that testimony from teen claire rainier about her experience. >> no one bullied me or neglected me. from an external perspective, my life was perfect. but mental health was never discussed at school or home or even in health classes beyond the, take care of yourself, get

sleep, and exercise spiel. i kept telling myself everything was okay, why should i feel sad or lost, i'm so fortunate, how could i possibly feel this way? ultimately, i didn't ultimately, i didn't seek help because i didn't know anything was wrong. and i'm more than an anecdote. when i tell a room full of people that i was confused or turned to google for help, i see a course of nods. i need more than one hand to count the number of close friends who have experienced suicidal ideation and barriers to care do not discriminate, they infiltrate every home regardless of ethnicity, class, or geography. compared to most, i'm privileged. finding a community of peers leet me know i was not alone. i was once again, able to be focused on school, sports, my family and friends. i learned how to maintain my wellness and i'm proud to be

able to say i know where you're coming from and this pain can be temporary and to know that it is true. the people who do not find these supports, unlike me, are not here. many of them will never be able to tell us their story of so we have an obligation to these youth to make a difference. we need to support school counsellors, station social workers in schools, fund wellness programs at universities and introduce mental health curriculum into health classes where they belong. we must reflect on the way we separate academic success from mental well-being, make care more affordable, incorporate into primary care and covered by insurance. we need healthcare workers and diversity health providers, we need to reduce stigma, early intervention, and educate our youth, teachers and parents. >> again, more of that available

at the website and our app, when it comes to kids in schools, there's a story at npr talking about how the kids are dealing with grief and loss of a loved one, estimated 175,000 lost lost, long standing equities cause death rates in their communities, cdc study shows compared to white children asian children were more likely to have lost a care gaver to covid, black children 2.4 times as likely, that trauma alone is significant. according to adolescent psychiatrist and chief medical officer at behavioral health going to know to say some children with lost generations of family members and going to school without having a therapist available or school counsellor, nurse, nor is there always adequate help for these

children, schools in many underserved communities have no mental support, some schools have one counsellor spread across an entire district. let's hear from brad in minnesota. good morning. >> you know, i see that you're talking about the pandemic and it's the impact, the pandemic impact on mental health and substance abuse and i think that's so misleading that the pandemic isn't really what's impacting our mental health. it's the media causing more of the problem than anything of misinformation that you think about these poor people are suckers. i mean they believe what they hear on tv that if you take the shot, the jab, that you won't get covid. well that was wrong, then they say well if you take the jab and the shot, you can't transmit,

well that's wrong. then they hyped it up, so -- >> so you're saying there's no mental health or substance abuse issues stemming from covid and saying that strictly as a result of the media? >> i'm saying that -- i'm not saying there isn't, there can't be some, there probably is, but the problem being is there's more impact by the media what they're doing has more on mental health and substance abuse than this pandemic that has been -- think about this, pedro, they told us it has come from a wet virus -- >> okay we're not talking about the history, you know the topic because you said the topic you're calling in so we'll leave you there. pauly in st. petersburg. >> thank you, i think darnell who called in earlier hit it

spot on. cyber security at this point bridged the whole system and made it an even worse problem than it ever was. before the pandemic, when my daughter was very small, in elementary school, at bus stops, children didn't even interact, they were all on their phones, so this has been going on long before the pandemic. yeah. but now, now we've gotten to a point where we got issues in media and we got legal situations with violence where none of us feel safe which has led to mental devastation, have faith in your own home and country. >> so are you saying there's no direct correlation between the pandemic and those increases in mental health or substance abuse? >> i think it just put it on blast. i think the issue was already there. >> what do you mean by that? >> i think it just, it's just

everybody now suddenly put on stop where they had to look at the problem. i think kids weren't interacting at school to begin with, weren't socializing, all on their devices to start with so it's not like being in person made a difference, they weren't talking to each other in the first place. >> okay. pauly there in st. petersburg florida, we'll hear from jim, calling from grand forks, north dakota. hello. >> hi, pedro, how are you doing? >> i'm fine, thanks. >> pretty cool out here, 10 below today. going out door shortly to work here 6:30 a.m. here, just want to call about two little quick points. i'm originally from pennsylvania and mine father passed away about 6 monthed ago in a nursing home he was 64 but he didn't die of covid, he was just locked in,

you know, a room and the isolation is what killed him. my brother would visit him and have to talk to him through a window and he wasn't allowed to go to the dining room and the calls i made to him were almost unbearable in the end and he was just deteriorating he was saying i'm a prisoner, jim, i'm a prisoner. he was paying money to live in a nice assisted living facility but they kept him locked in a room the last six months of his life, he felt maybe a 94-year-old guy would be able to go outside, feel the sun on his face or my brother could take him to breakfast but even with the vaccinations they just kept him all locked up in there and think how many thousand and see thousands of people died of prisoners like that. >> and that was because of the covid protocols of the facility he was at? >> yeah, it was back in bucks county pennsylvania, where i grew up, so that was pretty hard

to hear everyday. i couldn't get back home because i was at work but didn't see him three years. the other point, i'm more concerned, not about us, i'm 58 years old last of the baby boomers, i'm doing pretty good, but what about the little kids what are like 5 years old when the pandemic started, the very first memory of these kids is not grab your galoches, junior, it's grab your mask. the first memory is their mom and dad telling them about this invisible entity that's going to kill them and i'm wondering how neurotic these kids are going to be by the time they're 20 years old, how many youth terrified of germs, going to be interested to see -- >> how did that thought come to your mind? how did you come to think on that? >> well, when i go to -- first of all, when i see a picture like biden with that creepy black mask on and that big giant head that he has, i always think

the little kid walks by the tv screen, he would be terrified and also when i go to the walmart or the store, i'm wearing my mask, but i see these people that wrap up their three-year-old kid in a mask and i'm thinking that's, the kid must be terrified all these big 6 foot tall big humans, you know, looking down on him with these black masks and stuff, i think i'd be terrified if i was a little kid, just thinking how that's going to affect them. i think they might be a generation that might keep wearing a mask, 20 years from now probably still wear them. anyway -- >> got you jim, thanks for the call, in north dakota talking about his father's experience and at least his thoughts on how kids might be impacted. sue, in new jersey saying you can't just take away people's livelihoods and not expect increase in mood and eating disorders and substance abuse. initial two week shut downs turned into months, lost

business and jobs, closed schools, while essential workers had to show up. we were all unprepared, feel like we're finding our way in the dark. 20 minute nooz this, the impact of the pandemic, people sharing their personal experiences and other anecdotes here, if you want to add yours to the mix 202-748-8000, last digit 1 for the mountain and pacific time zones. connie in tacoma washington texas us to, to reach out to the national alliance on mental illness, we feature them on this program quite a few times, our website at c-span.org. let's hear from tim in georgia, you're next, good morning. >> hey, good morning. a lot of people are talking

about the pandemic but really what they aren't mentioning is the fact that the people who caught covid and the mental issues that they have after they caught it. i had no mental issues whatsoever, i caught the virus back in october and to this day, now i have to see a psychiatrist, i'm on depression pills, anxiety, i'm all messed up since i had this virus. and i'm just wondering how many other people had no mental issues until they got the virus and now they have mental issues? >> in your case tim, you're saying you had none of those things before covid but experiencing them after? >> none of them, i had none of them. i mean, i lost half of my

memory, like i said. i just drive around normal and everything and then all of a sudden i break down in tears and start crying uncontrollably, five or 10 minutes, the doctors don't know what's going on because they, everybody's having different issue with this afterwards, you know what i'm saying. so it's like everybody has different problem after they've got covid. so some of my memory is coming back now but i still have issues of, i got a lot of things, but -- >> if i may ask, when you talk to the people that you talk to about these issues, is this face-to-face, is it through an internet connection, how does that work, if you don't mind sharing? >> it's an internet connection because they don't have -- they won't let you in the hospital so to speak, so you're going

basically, even though you're talking to them, it's not the same as really interacting so therefore they're kind of going off of what you telling them and i tell them from the beginning i've never experienced anything like this so i'm going off 100% of what they say i should do so right now it's like i'm okay but the mental problem is that i always feel like when i'm going around the corner, bam, it's going to hit me and i'm going to get anxiety attack, a panic attack. that, mentally, has messed me up is what i'm saying so a lot of the people who didn't have mental issues, you know, now, after the virus, they have mental issues. >> uh-huh, okay. >> so that's the problem. >> that's tim there sharing his story in georgia. thanks for doing that, the new york times takes a look at how college campuses are going to deal with these issues once, now that students are back enrolled

and they write as cases surge the big question is what campus life will look like in january, will classes be remote, will students be able to gather, will campus life, be loneliness or isolation, motivation and focus among the top concerns of college students who sought counselling during the pandemic. some administrators worry there's a conflict between protecting students' physical health and mental health restricting the ability to interact, there's a price to pay for all of that. president of the university kentucky, somebody said if we're not careful, going to trade one epidemic for another and in many ways, i think we are. many students, the latest virus surge feels like a giant step back to the nether world where college was just not college. more of that at the new york times if you want to read that online. this is from josie in pennsylvania, thank you. >> good morning, i've been listening intently and some of

the things i think we need to take into consideration are this was a historic pandemic. we've never experienced anything like this before, and we have tried to find our way through it as best we can. i think that the vaccinating and the masks were necessary to try to keep that in check. if we looked at the statistics lately, united states has the highest death rate of all the western countries in europe. it's amazing that we fumbled but we tried our best. i know that it has taken a toll on people. i know that isolation has been a difficult thing, but i think there are good things that have come out of it. we've reached out more, i think, within our own families. i think that we've learned that we are stronger than we thought we were. i think, i have to go back to my grandmother died in the 1918

spanish flu epidemic and that had a pro longed effect on my mother who was just an infant when that happens and historically, we have been able to rise above. the mental health issues, i think we can address. we are stronger than we think we are. i think that the gentleman who didn't see his father for three years in a nursing home, nursing homes were very vulnerable. i have a very deer friend in a nursing home, she's 95 and has copd. to restrict people from coming there was to protect her and she just celebrated that 95th birthday, so i go back to this, matt lock, a character in edgar rivers's, spoon river anthology, sons and daughters, life is too strong, it takes life to love life, i think we're stronger than most people think we are

and i do think we'll come out of this -- we will be hurt, but we will survive. >> okay, joesy there in pennsylvania sharing her thoughts this morning. this is from bill in brockton, massachusetts. hello. >> yeah, how are you doing paid , pedro, i hope you hear me okay. i think this could be a grave situation, if you're telling me that a lot of black kids are losing parents and stuff, and grandfather and see stuff, i lost my father at 15 and, to me, the first time with cancer. i went on to be an alcoholic, went into crack and all that stuff, i'm doing great now, but the second time with death i thought i conquered it, got everybody in my mother's room,

64, my father died at 48, and we, you know, everybody saw her dying and helped our family out a lot and i thought i had it conquered but went on to find this woman in the program and i got straight, you know, you won't believe this is a true story. my brother died on christmas day in 2000 and my wife, brother died of covid and my wife died 12 days later. now i wanted to get into the indirect, you say 900,000 people died of covid in the united states, there's a lot of indirect people that died. my wife was patient, she got a kidney, then going off the kidney because the kidney only lasted five years. had all ready to go and they wouldn't let her, on the sixth, seventh, day in massachusetts, 2021, the most covid, hospitals

overridden and they kept on telling her no, you know, when she has to come in. i mean you got to bring her in. so finally call said the doctors told them she wants to come in today and wouldn't let her in, didn't have the room and she died next day in my arms. what i'm trying to say to the kids of america, they got to fight, got to find it, because there are programs out there, you have to take and do whatever if you get into that stuff after you lose someone, there is hope i'm saying. now 60 years old, sober, going through hell now but i'm going to live. i've gone through a lot in life and this is all my story, dealt with death and death is hard to deal with but you get through it that's what i'm telling the kids of america. >> that's bill in massachusetts, giving his advice to young people, talked about those issues he dealt with, one of

those things yesterday at that hearing was idea of dealing with substance abuse, drug overdose and deaths from the pandemic. part of the exchange from the hearing yesterday. >> listen to these statistics. i want the public to hear it, mostly. 100,000 americans have died to the last year due to overdoses. many of them, if not most of them, from fentanyl. this is the part that is most shocking. in the age group, 18 to 45, we've lost more young people from overdoses than covid, car accidents, and suicides. so it's another example where spending money was not the solution without real teeth, real substantive directives at the source of it. we visited the southern border a

little less than a year ago, going from record low illegal crossings to about 70 to 75,000. that's now leveled out at about 170,000. i mean, appalling. i have two questions both for ms. golsby. when it comes to not only the impact of losing lives but along with workforce to boot, i think we lost close to 2 million prime-aged workers due to the fact that they're contending with opioid issues, how much of this issue is directly related to the policies we have on our southern border where illegal crossings are up, fentanyl comes along with it. how much has that contributed to this tragic loss of life? >> thank you for your question. you know, a couple things.

my expertise rests with prevention, treatment and recovery, service delivery, but from 2018 to 2019 in south carolina we were really making headway and saw the number of over doses leveling off due to all our efforts and with the state opioid response funds. since then, in the last two years, our overdoses have skyrocketed and we're estimating about 63% of our overdose fatalities in 2020 were a direct result of the extremely potent illicit fentanyl in the drug supply. i think in the last two years, we have pivoted to doing everything we can to keeping people alive, and implementing evidence-based harm reduction and intervention services, gotten a lock zone everywhere we can get it, a life saving antidote, with the flexibilities and funding support we've been able to distribute fentanyl test

strips to those individuals who may not know what substances they're ingesting as the illicit fentanyl got into methamphetamine and cocaine supply, if able to use these strips, using less of the drug, and every interaction to get these supplies to people on the street where they are is an opportunity to engage them in treatment services and get them on the path to recovery so that's where our efforts are focusing so heavily now and i'll say, we're not feeling defeated but it's been a major setback in the last couple years with how dramatically things have shifted. >> about 10 more minutes to comment if you wish on the phones on the pandemic's impact on mental health and substance abuse, 202-748-8 thousand, david

elliott from facebook, seeing lots of hental health issues, more kids than ever, system is broken. from vicky in wichita kansas, affected my 81-year-old mother severely, the fear and isolation, brought on by debilitating anxiety, cannot even function without xanax and then from byrd in virginia, i could be wrong, another past popular movement of defunding state mental hospitals during the 80s full effects are being realized in real time today. now, with the combination of prison reform and nonprosecution, these will be interesting. now to sam in pennsylvania. >> good morning, pedro, how are you this morning?

i want to echo the sentiments from the caller from massachusetts, she mentioned the word hope. you know, we've gone through this pandemic now two years and there's been a lot of confusion and contrary reporting by the news media on what's effective and what's not. there was a gentlemen that called in last week and had mentioned the interview, the hearics conducted by ron johnson in, with all the scientists and biologists and immuneologists, and you had made mention that c-span was going to look into whether or not you covered it. did you find that story, pedro? >> you can go to the website if

you want to find out there, i don't have anything to add to that point and considering this point is about mental health and substance abuse during the pandemic and that's what we're talking about, what do you think the state of that is? >> well if you were sincerely concerned about the mental health of people, you would report both sides of the story, you would give some people hope, you would, you know, take a more responsible news reporting position on providing both sides of the story and letting meme see what they're not being told. the only thing you see when you call in, when you turn on your programs or covid reporting stories, you know, and vaccine-reporting stories. if you give people the different opinions of these other people and provide some sort of hope, you know, that we may be getting

through this, that there is some sort of nefarious workings on the part of the pharmaceutical companies to simply sell drugs and to make billions and billions of dollars, if we were to complete the story and show people that, you know, this is what else we've found out, we've been a little incomplete in our reporting and now you need to see what else we found out. >> okay, okay, we'll go to debra in town heights, new york. debra, in new york, hello. >> hi, thank you so much for taking my call. i wanted to just offer a resource that might be a solution for other states and also a caller from georgia who talked about some mental health issues so i just looked up the behavioral health line in georgia, so he can call

866-399-8938 and they should be able to help him with some emotional support. i am a therapist in new york and there are a lot of programs, free programs offering mental health support because it's such a really challenging time, not just because of covid but everything else we're going through, the political turmoil, economic uncertainty, but specific to the opioid crisis, there's a project in new york called harris project and it was started by a mother who unfortunately, she lost her son to an accidental overdose and decided to take action. so she set up a quota club in most of the schools and county, it's a co-occurring awareness disorder club, not only substance abuse but also goes hand-in-hand with anxiety

disorders or depression so that is a co-occurring disorder when you have both at once. the harris organization is kind of brilliant in my opinion because it's a scaffolding program, meaning she'll go in, do a training, provide a box of materials basically for the students and then the students go on to train the other students that are younger. so each year, it can kind of generate the knowledge from one group to the next and with that kind of scaffolding we save a lot of money and i think it's a pretty brilliant program. i wanted to mention it because you had a caller the other day, tom from portsmouth, virginia, and he was talking about the tax credit in the state of virginia for the donation of professional services and i found that very valuable and now trying to get something similar in the state of new york. so just wanted to share these resources as well. >> debra, thanks for calling and sharing that information with our audience. let's go to mike in florida, hello, you're next.

>> thanks. just a couple of things. i'm sure the pandemic is affecting mental health and kids and stuff, but also the weekly or daily active shooter drills probably affect them too if the liberals and republicans can count how many are coming across the border illegally, not just keep the count, but suggest how we can stop them -- >> yes, how are you doing today? >> thank you. >> appreciate it. >> i was calling because i was a little concerned, you know, you have little children having mental issues going on and especially with the pandemic and as adults, we need to really look out for them and help before it gets worse. and with the treatment of how you talk to the children and certain things they can't see on

tv or in the news, can cause problems for children. children just as small as adults. i have a little 4-year-old, she just as smart as she can be. and all the stuff she hear in the news is like really kind of making her unhappy at times and stuff, what's going on. and so what i got to do is sit down with her, give her lots of hug, lots of love, tell her i love her, she tell me she loves me and that, i do all that, she gets a little better, but then turn around, sometimes she's unhappy again and i try not to let her look at everything on the news and what's going on and with the pandemic and everything and i try to keep her safe from not, you know, getting the pandemic and she goes to school and she have to come home from school because somebody had, you

know, the covid. it's just so much going on in our world and in our country and in our united states of america. >> okay. >> it's just mindboggaling. >> steve off of twitter saying substance abuse is just a symptom when guns are more accessible in a society than being enlightened by art or literature which is the food of life. the balance is gone. to fine one's own balance is life long process. take a look at over dose deaths, particularly during the pandemic and came to these conclusions, from their research, while overdose deaths were on the rise long before the out break of covid in march, 2020, such fatalities accelerated during the pandemic, nation wide, monthly number never exceeded 6,500 before march 2020, between

march and december 2020 there were more than 7,100 deaths, monthly, cite less access to treatment and a rise in mental health problems associated with the pandemic. let's hear from scott in michigan. you're next. >> yeah, good morning, yeah the mental health issue is definitely going to get worse and the substance abuse, since they legalized marijuana and all this stuff, it's no good. they're dumbing up this nation, why these politicians are robbing everything with their big deals in the stock market and everything. >> okay, that's scott there in michigan, finishing us off in

this hour, thank you all of you who participated. two guests joining us throughout the course of the program, first joined by michael morley, election law expert at florida state university college of law to talk about efforts on capitol hill to reform the electoral count act law in wake of the 2020 election you'll find out more about that law and how it works from him, later on in the program hear from afghanistan special inspector john sopko as he talks about conditions in post-war afghanistan since the taliban take-over this summer, those conversations coming up on washington journal. 2001, bethan at the time, a writer for fortune magazin >> in early 2001, bethany mclean, at the time a writer for fortune magazine asked the question in an article, how does enron make its money? mclean's reporting along with

others who wrote articles led to a lot of inquiries put to the enron management. within a few months, the company was bankrupt, bethany mclean's subsequent 2003 book titled the smartest guys in the room, became a bestseller. next, successful documentary. since 2008, mclean has made a career of writing about american financial crises. in january, she discussed her reaction to the theranos saga in an essay about convicted felon elizabeth holmes she wrote, quote, for those who believe she was guilty of a great crime, it's a disappointing verdict, end quote. >> journalist and author bethany mclean on this week's episode of book notes+, available on the c-span now app or wherever you get your podcast.

>> book tv, every sunday on c-span 2 features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books. at noon eastern on in-depth, george town university law professor sheryl cashin, many books include the failures of integration, the agitators daughter, and most recently, "white space, black hood" afterwards, democratic congressman ho khanna, with his book dignity in a digital age. interviewed by founder and editor of chief of "the markup" julie anguin, watch on c-span 2, find a full schedule on program guide or watch anytime at book tv.org.

>> washington journal continues. >> we're joined by michael morley a professor of college of law at florida state university, also a member of national task force on election crisis member, thanks for giving us your time today. >> thank you, happy to be here. >> on capitol hill, over the last couple of days, something called the electoral count act has been discussed greatly. could you tell our audience what it is and what its importance to actually determining who the president of the united states will be? >> sure, so the electoral count act is a federal statute that was passed in the late 1800s to govern the very last stages of presidential elections, when voters go to voting booths on election day in most states press a button or fill out a ballot with a name of presidential candidate on it. under state law, they're not actually voting for that

particular candidate so if you press the button for joe biden or fill out for joe biden, for example, you're not literally voting for joe biden, instead, you're voting for the slate of democratic presidential electors that was nominated by the democratic party of whatever state you're in. each state, then, tallies the results of its election, 49 states do so on a winner take all basis so whichever candidate gets the most votes wins all the state's electors, two states vote congressional district by congressional district so they'll tally the votes up separately within each congressional district and whoever gets the most votes in the district gets the presidential electorate for that district, then the electors meet in december separately on each state on a date set forth in federal law, cast electoral votes, determine which presidential candidate they're actually going to vote for, and many states actually have state laws restricting who electors are able to vote for, requiring them to cast their vote in occurrence with the outcome of

popular vote in that state and those electoral votes get sent to washington dc, pursuant to article 2 of the constitution of the 12th amendment, congress then meets in joint sessions, house and senate meet together in the same room, in a joint precession presided over by vice-president and these electoral votes are counted and tallied and whichever camp it gets a majority of electoral votes or to use the more specific constitutional language, receives electoral votes from a majority of electors appointed, becomes the president. and so the electoral count act is the federal law that was passed about a decade after the stolen election of 1876 when we were basically on the verge of inauguration day without knowing which slates of votes would be counted, congress passed the law, to provide procedural and substantive rules to govern that

joint session which votes are counted and tallied. >> you mention the 12 amendment part of it reads the electors shall meet in their states, make distinct lists of all persons voted for as presidents and of persons voted for of vice-president and number of votes for each transmit that sealed to the seed of the united states direct to the president of the senate, then in the presence of the senate and house of representatives open the certificates and votes shall then be counted, the person with the greatest number of votes for president shall be president. what happens that the original law, as this process goes, if there's this dispute, muffin like we saw back from the most recent election? >> so, the electoral count act has different sets of rules depending on how many slates of electors or i should say how many potential slates of electors congress has received from a state. when there's only one slate of electors from a state, congress

is only choice is do we count it or not count it and the electoral count act is hefb aem tilted in favor of counting it. the default rule is that where you only have one slate of electors from a state, congress has to count it, unless both chambers are able to agree that those electoral votes were not regularly given by lawfully certified electors given to the eca and that's given to the statute that these two key customer terms what does it mean for electoral votes to be regularly, given what does it mean for electors to be lawfully certified, these terms aren't defined by the eca itself, there isn't a clear explanation in hedge slative history specifically saying what they were intended to mean so part of the motivation for the eca reform effort is to try to clarify those terms or in some substantially larger proposals to even just completely reform the process, get rid of those

terms and establish stricter requirements for what congress is able to do. >> all right, go ahead. >> where there's competing slates of electors in contrast, where it's not just a matter of is congress going to count what the state submitted, then the electoral count act has more complicated procedures where the state has to -- the joint session of congress has to determine, are one of these slates entitled the safe harbor status which you might remember from being one of the major issues in bush v gore, if multiple slates appear entitled the sief harbor status, congress has to see if both houses can agree on which one to actually accept. if none of the slates are entitled the safe harbor status then the chambers of congress have to determine if both chambers can agree on which one under state law was actually the lawfully appointed slate of electors so things get more complicated when there are multiple slates submitted for a state, which makes the initial threshold question of what counts as a potentially valid

slate of electors very critical and that becomes another one of the main focuses of eca reform. >> this is michael morley from florida state university to talk about the electoral count act and efforts to reform it, if you want to ask questions about the act, 202-748-8001 for republicans, you can also text your thought. to the point now that there's actual debate on potential changes, do you think potential changes are needed in light of what you said, and if so, what should those changes be. >> so they are at an absolute minimum. there are certain technical aspects. eca that absolutely need reform because the statutory languages is archaic, it's vague, underspecified in that there are certain issues likely to arise

in the statute it simply doesn't address so in terms of some of the low-hanging fruit, clarifying the requirements for safe harbor status, for example, a slate of electors is entitled the safe harbor status, if, to use the language in the statute, there's been a final determination of any disputes regarding that slate of electors by a date specified in that statute, so clarifying what does and doesn't count is a final determination. if a voters, for example, still have a lawsuit pending in federal court regarding the outcome of the presidential election in the state, does that prevent the electors in that state from having safe harbor status? if a candidate brought and lost a lawsuit trying to challenge results from a state but the deadline for taking an appeal or filing a petition hasn't run, is that sufficient to stop a slate from having safe harbor status? so clarifying what is or isn't a final determination, a very

technical issue, very nonpartisan type issue but that would go a long way towards rezaufbling some ambiguity of the statute, more specifying the role of the vice-president, current statute says the vice-president presides over the chamber of congress, vice-president has the statutory authority to keep order during this session but clarifying specifically the kinds of actions and decisions the vice-president can and cannot make, clarifying to the extent it needs to be clarified and the vice-president is not the one who makes decisions about the validity of electoral votes or how to choose between competing slates of electoral votes. so limiting the role of the vice-president and more clearly defining the role of the vice-president i think is another area where, again, a technical aspect i think you could find a large degree of bipartisan consensus. other details like that, there are more technical nuts and bolts details about the procedural rules that apply when you have multiple slates of

electors. there are lots of the technical details on the statute about how you determine whether a slate has safe harbor status, how you determine which of the multiple slate scenarios, according to the statute you're in, could use clarification even the ultimate fall back is if you have multiple slates from a state and the chamber of congress simply can't agree on anything, the eca has what's called the tiebreaker where at the end of the day, if the chambers of congress are totally deadlocked in disagreement about multiple electors you go by the one certified by the state's governor which is fine if you have one slate certified by the state's executive so to the extent this tie breaker is supposed to be the ultimate fallback, fleshing that out so it truly is comprehensive, what happens if you don't have any slates certified by the executive? what happens if by perhaps result of a court order or some

oath post election action, potentially a change in administration, you have multiple slates signed by the executive, so again, fleshish , fleshing out those worst nuts and bolts case scenarios so congress isn't left in the midst of hotly contested election where you know left by interpretations on what to do, trying to make those rules ahead of time behind a veil of ignorance are ways of improving the eca. the more fundamental type of reform,ive, would be addressing that central question, under what circumstances if any is congress permitted to reject a slate of those from a state, right? the notion of defining what it means for those to be regularly begin, to be lawfully certified, defining those terms would force congress to address that ultimate issue. does the 12th amendment forbid it from conducting any sort of substantive analysis of the electoral votes? is congress automatically required to accept

whatever the state submits are their rare extreme circumstances where both chambers of congress conclude there have been pervasive fundamental violations of the 15th amendment or other restrictions, congress can exact authority to restrict votes, under reform, that would be the issue congress has to grapple with. >> you have calls lined up asking about this question, jb for michael morley from florida state university. you're on. >> caller: when you have a system where somebody can get 3 and a half million more votes than the other candidate and still lose the election, a system like that, that's an inherently bad system in my opinion. i think after 240 some years of having this electoral college thing it's time to put it to

bed. i mean, a direct, straight direct election, you know, one for one, would be so simple. if we had something like that, you wouldn't have had a january 6th meeting up there, there wouldn't be nothing like that. so i think just get rid of the damn thing and go to a straight direct popular vote and then that will make it so much simpler, every state would be exactly like, wouldn't be all this mismatch of this state and that state does this and does that, it doesn't make sense anymore. i know the reasons why it was put in, i understand the reasons why, but that was so long ago. >> so the electoral count act is a federal statute, right, it governs how congress deals with electoral votes within the context of the electoral college. what you're talking about, moving to a national popular vote where we abolish the electoral college, the most direct way of doing that would be a constitutional amendment.

there currently is a proposal known as the national popular vote act that seek to see make work within the confines of the electoral college to in effect, make the outcome of the national vote dispositive, although there were a range of policy and constitutional concerns raised with regard to that proposal, as of right now the national popular vote compact specifies it will only take effect with states possessing enough electoral votes, which means states on their own have enough to determine the presidential election, only take into effect when those states have signed on to it. the last i checked, states having about 190 electoral votes have signed on so about 2/3 of the way there but getting that last hurdle, the last states to agree to join the compact i think will prove to be the biggest political challenge,

simply because most of the democrat leaning states have joined the compact already. the states that remain outside the compact tend to be either purple states or more republican-leading states that generally oppose the compact or at least the members of the legislatures in those states generally oppose the compact. >> republican line, hi -- >> how are you doing, mr. morley, i'd like you to address the situation in pennsylvania, it's my understanding that a federal judge just had a ruling stating that what the pennsylvania legislature did with i believe it was a law, 187-something, 1877 or whatever, that nullified the state constitution regarding the election procedures where the

state allowed the election to go on further than it should have and also that the, i believe, with mail-in balloting, it went against the state constitution. >> leaving now to capitol hill to hear from russia/ukraine issues, focusing on human rights and security issues, includes nine senators, nine members of the house and one each from state and commerce departments, live coverage here on c-span 3.

>> welcome everyone to the hearing of the united states helsinki commission. i want to welcome our two witnesses that are here in person and one who is with us virtually as we have this hearing on russia's assault on