>> i would say the work that i provided with the onset is a completely different controlled environment and that i don't advocate but any type of advocacy that comes from the inspector general is evidence from what i put before you showing what is going on in the program. >> and one of the failures it says sba is expected with the project scope by the end of 2021. can you provide us an update if it was successful in

concluding the emotionality by the end of 2021? >> that information currently the system is basically where it is but we are looking into it at the end of 2022. we are looking at it and that delivers the woman owned small business capability and then the application so they hope to make that decision in the next two months. >> thank you for your response. my time is up. i yield back. >> now we recognize the gentleman the chairman of

committee oversight. >> thank you madame chair. moments ago one of my colleagues insinuated democrats not to seem not to care about fraud but i want to remind everybody that i think we all agree we are here to provide oversight and ensure as much as we can come every dollar lost to fraud is a dollar denied for the businesses we are here to serve and understandable discussed by me and every taxpayer. there's a lot of work to be done but i applaud the dedication to provide oversight for the diligence implemented number of ig recommendations in recent months. as chair of the small business community of investigation let me assure you we are both

committed to ensure oig has the necessary resources for proper oversight. period. just $15 million in support of congress four.2 million dollars that is an extraordinary return on investment. what marking congress do to support oig? >> thank you. thank you to this committee from the work you have done to make sure we get you what you need. but do we have enough resources to provide for the pandemic loans? so as we demonstrated that's not a good argument. but the current level of

oversight includes just over 180 positions. the problem is a non- supplemental budget authority only provides for 125 and at the supplemental funds by fiscal year 2024 that can be a key moment but i believe that annual resource level i worked with omb and they worked with me and to please support to match the landscape. and then for that deep consideration when the request is made ppp was designed to expeditiously find with the

fraud and eligibility controls and rather during the loan forgiveness period. i know oig has identified 70000 loans four.$6 billion a potentially fraudulent ppp loans and this might be the tip of the iceberg. a large majority of the ppp loans partially or fully forgiveness does oig have a better sense of total fraud? i don't remember if you gave a specific sense and if not you have a more distinct picture? the work on loan forgiveness those that are ongoing currently with some indication of what we are looking at we will see where the rubber meets the road because the

numbers are large so those that have an early default high risk lending review program. >> we know there are non-bank lenders is oig working specifically to identify those lending institutions are the non-bank lenders quick. >> we have not focused on any the number we are dealing with we have enough from the entire landscape. our agents have caseloads. >> my first question is what resources do you need i'm sure

you have the resources to provide the oversight so thank you for your service and with that i yield back. >> and now we recognize the gentleman from wisconsin. >> thank you madame chair and thank you for being here. you can hear the level of frustration in the members voices as they continue to ask questions and it is difficult in a five-minute exchange to get down to the nitty-gritty. but in the fall of 2021 the semiannual report to congress, you mentioned the oig was working diligently with federal state law enforcement partners over the past year to bring more than 300 ppp fraudsters to

justice. the result has been reiterated $460 million in assets recovered not including the three.1 billion the oig helped recover. what is the measuring stick you are using at this point to gauge what you would consider success? the way the math shakes out it is just a 3 percent recovery but i am wondering is what is the goal that you have internally right now and i would love to hear updates on a regular basis so we know where we are at and what is going on. >> regarding the update there is a update document that

comes out on a monthly basis that goes to this committee. and with the semiannual report covers six months. so in terms of success that is the whole of government approach from the onset we work with the department of justice and across the country and working with fbi and the secret service our successes all success it is with the american taxpayer how many fraudulent actors i don't have the number for x amount of people but what i do know is we are diligently working to

bring fraudulent asked to justice. >> my concern is as we go to this process now, ppp, even though they have been great successes, they are tarnished now by the high fraudulent number. if there is some way for us moving forward to say this is where you might shatter a program you might make a determination it is no longer serving its purpose because of the high fraudulent number. i don't think that's out of the round and it seems to be what is in the past related to other sba programs. for my perspective is something we should be aware of and watching and one year from now let's i get back

together to see exactly where we are at because that might mean the end of some programs if it isn't characterized this way without specific hard deadlines i think it is in the best interest of the sba your office has the reins and you can make that happen. i am hoping with these monthly updates i will pay more attention to that. i hope the communication is free throwing between the committee and your office. >> one of the things i forgot to mention it's important for everyone to understand that

white collar crime normally takes years to manifest and to really come forward. what we have done is expedited this in a way that has not happened in the past. we are still only at the beginning the loans have not even come up for repayment yet. that's where the real rubber meets the road in terms of friday cases and everything else we are still at the onset of oversight. >> your time has expired. the gentle lady is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you chair woman and inspector general for enjoy on —- joining us today for

reporting on the problematic challenges. as you mentioned in your testimony the paycheck protection program and the covid idol program are susceptible to forms of fraud and abuse in these have been vulnerable because of the broad scope and the rapid instrumentation during the very beginning of the pandemic. i am particularly concerned about the fraud of the covid idol program with identity theft and not only harms taxpayers but also individuals who are not at all connected in that way. so the oig reports released in may you examine the handling of identity theft and raise concerns of the oig lack of

administrative seizure authority i.e. and curious of that has impacted the case with what you are seeing now for what your office is able to pursue quick. >> we work very closely with the secret service and have a great relationship with them on our behalf with the seizure authority. in this instance we can move a little faster. >> i appreciate that and that something that stuck out to me. i want to switch over to ongoing liability with those initial vulnerabilities that

have been fixed and i and curious if you can speak to the ongoing liabilities and what further steps the sba or the committee need to take as we go forward? >> what do you mean specifically for ongoing liability quick. >> there was some guidance that occurred earlier on and i am curious whether or not if there is ongoing liability but what i'm thinking is the potential for additional fraud

that when the rubber meets the road that has not come up yet so can you talk to us for what is going on with the steps we need to be taking quick. >> the landscape is different so the money at this point is already out we are dealing at looking from a loan forgiveness perspective it will inform us greatly on that continued risk from the standpoint the same will happen when they come up for repayment so in terms of informing that but it is two different things with you know what i mean in terms of money going out the door, it is out

the door already. >> i appreciate the work you are doing over there and i look forward if there are any further issues we are seeing we will keep the line of communication open with your office. i yield back. >> we recognize the gentle lady from texas for the community oversight investigation. >> thank you very much chairwoman for holding this hearing today and thank you for being here with your continued oversight work what your office does last few years it's made clear by the four.2 billion from the oversight and the pandemic response efforts last year as

we are all aware those cpi numbers just came out today and they are worse than expected once again gasoline is the band use car and truck syrup 37.3 percent rental cars and trucks up 36 percent propane and kerosene and firewood are up on the backs of working americans and small business employers many deserving applicants are being pushed out and beat out by fragile and applicants. if this is between 80 and $100 billion of fraudulent and improper payments given out by the sba then theoretically if sba were to return not fraudulent money today then provide that to other more deserving applicants?

>> i need to get back to you on that. that's a complicated question quite frankly and i do believe it has to go through treasury. there are some rules that need to be followed and an office that easy but i need to clarify that i don't want to give the wrong answered on the record. >> $100 million is appropriated to be given out in this find of 100 billions was fraudulently given out it seems to me you can take that money and help those people who needed them most that was the purpose of the appropriation's of you could get back to my office i would appreciate it. >> the only issue is that we don't have our hands on that money spent that was part of my question if you were to

obtain those funds it is clear the amount of fraud is incredibly large and the national recovery was quoted as saying he has never seen something at this scale. so considering those issues what would you recommend that this committee reach out to to expedite getting the funds back to prevent further fraud from occurring? those that have been recovered. >> not yet recovered how do we get them back and quickly or expedite the recovery? to do you recommend this committee work with quick. >> i believe that is the department of justice but they

are working hand-in-hand with enforcement community federal state and local in that regard. >> that financial institutions involved in have been able to help return funds would it be beneficial to work collaboratively with these financial institutions by holding hearings or other means? >> remember you are talking about two different programs one is a direct lending another done by banks and so many have pointed out what we found went that pride was in another program. >> if it would be better to identify how we could better the program for the future. >> perhaps. >> and then you looked at the

department analysis totaling over three.$1,000,000,000.550 million to be dispersed to and eligible recipients has this been resolved? >> yes. they immediately instituted the do not paycheck that is automatic in the process. >> i appreciate your hard work is given us a lot to think about a hope the chairman of the subcommittee agrees we should be holding a hearing on the rampant fraud we have heard. >> your time has expired you

are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madame chair for your service. the staffing major disasters continue to be a performance challenge for sba it's even more evident with the current pandemic and for me louisiana as well as the natural disaster that we suffered with hurricane ida. when the agency was forced to hire more permanent and temporary staff and process millions of covid and to develop that action plan to assess how the staff performed

during the pandemic so they can do better with the next disaster. to your knowledge as the agency committed to conducting the's assessments? >> they have to we have not yet seen it. >> when do you anticipate doing it and what effort do you have to make sure this gets done quick. >> i do anticipate that there was a big associated deadline when they were supposed to do it. it has not come up yet. they certainly can get that to you but the only way that recommendation will be resolved if it's with the document. >> will you provide any guidance on the best way to conduct this assessment pretty plan to play any role quick.

>> as part of the inspector general i cannot build it for the and then review it by law so it's evidence up to that point that a good deal with the recommendations from there. >> so that doesn't put you in a potential conflict to provide some guidance on best practices how this could be done quick. >> and what we can offer up. >> and how that particular report different to me it is something definitely i can get back to you more definitively i don't want to speak above and have the auditors come after me. >> are there lessons you take from other agencies? >> i am certain that they could but this program is not

new and has been around forever they consistently have the challenge. they know how to ramp up that are they properly trained or vetted and that we work with them to see that is done. >> do you look for and determines small and minority businesses and women on disadvantage women have an opportunity to be a part of the ramp up often times these agencies are big and then to be ready for these opportunities that because the small business administration we have an interest to make

sure we are providing opportunities for truly small businesses to play a role any rules or guidance or thoughts as you go through your oversight to determine if we are reaching those small businesses to partake in the aftermath of the case of the pandemic. >> that's a good question i don't believe my office performed or conducted any work with your question but it's something we can look at i will talk to my team responsible for the disaster programs and get their thoughts on it. >> particularly in my jurisdiction the small businesses that are often times on the side watching larger firms that are in the

jurisdiction the natural disaster is in the nest difficult we tried to build a small business space for it to create opportunities for small and emerging businesses anything you can give us in that area to provide guidance i appreciate it. i yield back. >> thank you chair and ranking member for having this hearing thank you for being here. my colleagues brought up before fiscal year 2022 and the first on the list was economic relief program you have seen the books and the workings of the sba and a couple people have asked

already if you would advocate increasing the programs but is the sba prepared to start a new direction for increase what they are landing before the challenges addressed? and asking you if they should but are they prepared? >> i believe sba is more prepared now than they ever have been with that is currently in place from a risk perspective. i look at it from a risk perspective from the taxpayer-funded so the control environment is stronger now than it has ever been and certainly much stronger from the onset of the pandemic. >> see you are saying there is still risk of fried because

the audience an investigation that is facing significant risk of fried because of the loan program size and scope so that currently exist but they are still facing significant risk of fraud but it is less and at the beginning when the program started? >> yes. let me clarify it's important to understand and to make sure that is mitigated. >> is it is mitigated now as it can be. >> there are those panels and recommendations as at less risk of fraud that was taken into account?

>> the importance to understand that more than half have to do with the financial statement dealing with something quite different. >> i understand it is 60 or so. and those that could be addressed that would further address the risk of fraud so there are some that would reduce the risk of fraud. >> yes. >> where do you like to see those items addressed before any new programs start? i have advocated from the very beginning that certain controls need to be in place before any program is started i said that before ppp was rolled out we had a report out

employing the agency to look at these before taking them off. >> i appreciate that and the work your office has been doing on these reports they are very thorough and i would love to see the sba address these but any risk bad guys will do bad things always find a way to do it we need to stay on top of them to make sure it is as diminished as possible. just based on what you said and your advocacy you put in front of us anyone take a position but so before the sba starts any program or increases the amount of money through the current programs

they should listen to you and address those issues because any risk of fried is unacceptable. i appreciate the work you have been doing. thank you for your testimony and a hope the sba administrators listen to you thank you. i yield back. >> and i we recognize the gentle lady from new york. >> thank you ranking member for taking time to be here and we are grateful for your work and what you are doing and exposing the issues with the sba and how to improve it to make it more friendly to our business community we greatly appreciate that. and we know they have struggled and it's one of the

reasons i partnered with senator lee for that transparency expenditures act. only through the fall audit can we ensure these mistakes are not meet again. we know sba has failed to respond to the's policies use set forth which are highlighting that we need to make sure we push them in the right direction but i want to specifically get back to an issue i had with the administrator bozeman in november and she said she was unaware that sba was illegal providing millions of dollars of loans to multiple planned parenthood affiliates and it's

illegal for the federal funds to be used for abortion and all applicants and they must abide by the rules and since planned parenthood is 16000 employees nationwide they are ineligible have you provided information about the paycheck protection loan to planned parenthood to the administrator have you provided her with this information? >> i have not personally provided information on planned parenthood to the administrator. i hope the committee knows that we checked off a job looking at eligibility of nonprofits that deals with the affiliation standards and planned parenthood is a part of that we do have a lot of work that is going way —- on right now and with a small

business committee. >> are you aware of loans made to planned parenthood? >> sim. >> do you know if those were made at the administrator was aware and if they were forgiven? >> i don't know of either of those. the work is ongoing. >> does the administrator have access whether the top line numbers as the rest of us would. >> do you recommend that sba change internal controls that violate the constitutional provision nor those of the ppp program that is something

through your inspector general role that would be forthcoming at the conclusion of our review but that is ongoing. >> if it is ongoing are there any preliminary information given as she comes into testified next week she denied knowing any of these and as administrator find that startling since it is an ongoing production of information i myself don't know where we are on this assignment and i have anything to provide currently. >> nothing is uploaded in the public domain other than what we know because those have been given and received on the

irs forms. >> it is fully vetted and completed. >> there has been nothing disclosed since november? >> no. i meet with her every other week. >> i want to reiterate that concerns my colleague had at the customer service issues still receiving information about loans that are handled in the efficient and continuous manner we hope you will continue to urge the administration to answer complaints faster and more efficiently as people are waiting a not have loans processed for one year but i appreciate your work to get the correct information to function better with a small business community struggling to the pandemic i yield back.

>> thank you again for being here today your oversight is very important more now than ever and valuable lessons for the future. it is vital we address the systemic challenges and work together to ensure internal controls are in place. doing so we make the agency stronger and better able to handle these disasters in the future and to that end it's important to close out that outstanding recommendation and with those challenges all

throughout the agency. if we have learned anything that we need to have a well-functioning and funded to address the day to day needs and to be ready for any catastrophe facing the nation i hope today's hearings motivate all of us to have a bipartisan solution and without objection members have five legislative days for the record if no further business to come before the committee we are adjourned. thank you