long as the last vote is over approximately 30 minutes it could be longer and we do have a number of members who have had the opportunity to ask questions. we will reconvene after a recess of votes now taken.

>> i call the subcommittee to order to resume the hearing. we certainly have one member here already. you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madame chair. i appreciate the patience of our witnesses. i want to start by emphasizing the point to be made with the

witnesses which is who needs to be at the table as we rollout autonomous vehicle technology? with long-haul trucking in particular as an you quite particularly the teamsters need to be at the table the hub model or with long-haul trucking system. and then teamsters are at the table to make sure we are sustaining or reinforcing are cultivating good union jobs rolling out this technology. and then to explore that over the next decade. mayors and governors need to drive that shift they know what's best for their

constituents. i would encourage us all to organize what makes these thriving places and public health good environmental quality to help small businesses to make cities more livable citizens of all ability and ages of possibility that is walking and cycling and it may not. and then to be pointed out by one of the witnesses which is a plague of american land-use if we can drastically reduces the autonomous vehicle fleet. that is a good thing. and that should be used to promote how they do their infrastructure dollars and purchase public land.

>> what has not been brought up today in this hearing with the property casualty insurance industry. i would encourage my colleagues and i and witnesses from the perspective property casualty insurance industry making sure we do this well. they are on the hook for a lot of the safety iterations. they have tremendous data over the course of 100 years over what kind of behaviors infrastructure for safe driving and to be a part of this conversation. i open it up to any of the witnesses to weigh in how they have worked with the industry are they propose that we

should, to ensure a safe rollout of av technology. >> congressman if i can respond to the question, by no stretch of the administration do i speak but the board of directors is comprised half of members of the industry and other leading public health law enforcement consumer advocacy. and that to be deployed been to make sure that cities are walkable and likable. some of those positions we have been advocating for our to make vehicles that are more

observing if they are in a crash or a delivery truck which is more ubiquitous. and i bicyclist. and my last point on that is the urge for emergency automatic braking in the luxury package but that is an equity issue. and that would be to tremendous value thank you. >> i can add on from an industry perspective that would be helpful. >> yes. but we are over time. >> one of the things we have done is very important here in

pennsylvania on the committee of several other driving along with insurance that they need to be at the table. >> i yield back. >> i have been called worse. [laughter] >> please forgive me. >> only that slim framework currently when it comes to automated vehicles across the country they had then leading the charge will also giving the flexibility and as we can see the employer struggle to find enough workers and experience economic recovery and then national supply chain disruption the framework with domestic growth.

as a dynamic av industry for americans across the country the regulatory framework will ensure continued growth with increase career opportunities and more stimulus supply-chain. 2021 us department of transportation found level for and level five automation long-haul trucking for all us workers between $260 per worker per year. also a tracking automation by 26,035,000 per year over 30 years so the trucking industry needs 80000 drivers i have heard this across the country specifically within texas this is expected to double by 2030 but yet in your testimony you

have fear of massive job loss and literally the only folks i have heard that from the country so i am curious if you do look toward the future to technology. >> thank you for the question and actually we are not out running around screaming about a robot apocalypse coming to take jobs in the trucking industry i don't see it i don't go for hyperbole. and quite honestly, we do believe that in some segments of the supply-chain we may see in that job increase.

we are more around the quality of jobs doing a big push around the apprenticeship program in california to train workers to take these jobs the day concern is how long people stay in those jobs after we train them and we don't want to invest a lot in california including training workers officious going to be a revolving door that's why i try to tailor our comments to the quality of jobs that we are creating and i appreciate you raising those issues in your questions as well. >> does anybody else have a comment if not for technology? >> next question. home to a growing av industry more than anywhere in the

country autopilot requires extensive programming to create new jobs to develop and maintain while increasing the efficacy in the aviation industry. so why would autonomous vehicle technology not do the same thing for road transportation with a not benefit from productivity and wage improvement with a welcome the opportunity for those who maintain the systems? >> . >> thank you for the question. i have no comment because when not in the trucking industry we are in airlines and public transit and railroads. the question was posed that somehow we are opposed to the implementation of technology and the development of technology in the way that can create jobs is simply not the case. so we are in favor of

technology and the jobs that it brings into public transit we just want that harnessed in a way that creates jobs and doesn't have an unnecessary impact on workers and does not jeopardize worker safety. so that comment i have made to connect with the question you're asking which is that innovation is good. we want good jobs we don't want workers inadvertently displaced. they would be fine. we just want good union jobs across america. we do have a disagreement with the use of av in public transit. we believe it is dangerous.

we believe automation should be under control of the human operator at all times. thank you. >> i would say very quickly, because you are out of time, yes. if employers are tuning into this hearing that think there are jobs out there, please call us. please. [laughter] >> your time has expired. >> thank you chairwoman. thank you for holding today's hearing. it is clear from the testimony we will see automated vehicle technology increasingly woven into transportation systems and now it is our job to ensure all levels of government face safe and equitable well researched policies to maximize the benefits of this technology to protect against the risks. my district is home to

curiosity lab at peachtree corner one-of-a-kind lab designed to provide a real-world testing environment to advance next-generation mobility and smart technology during the conversation to curiosity lab he mentioned vehicles are taking over smartphones and connected devices. the key element of safety is to ensure the highly connected reliant vehicles for have to remotely controlled with cybersecurity and with the cybersecurity standards so with the current cybersecurity requirements of autonomous

vehicles and other additional standards and what we need to think about to ensure their safety. >> i greatly appreciate the question to have a minimum standard i am not going to claim to be a cyberexpert so i cannot get granular into the details on that other than to say you've already seen weaponize thing with advanced technology in them to the detriment. it is a concern of ours so really it is a collaborative process to represent a myriad of organizations we listen to everyone and created a living document with the hope the committee and subcommittee will use as a foundation for

future legislation. >> absolutely. thank you for the question. cybersecurity is a challenge that is not limited to the av industry but for the automotive sector and the economy at large the av developer manufacturers by design in front is paramount importance to the outset. and these are ways in which the other sector at large can address cybersecurity vulnerability we look at a robust approach as the best way to address that and working with stakeholders on that process going forward.

>> so building on that other things that we should be doing in congress to talk more about the cybersecurity protection or buildout standards with software requirements what are the things we should think about as we move forward trying to find ways to support. >> ultimately i be happy to respond in writing with a risk-based approach what are the risks and vulnerabilities and how the framework is able to adapt over time with that specific revision? that is the exercise that with this kind of policy with the national institute for

standards and technology with the framework for cybersecurity and other measures can be adapted and applied in this context are very happy to provide the writing on that. >> thank you very much. i yield back. >> the gentle lady yields back. >> . >> thank you madame chair im here. thank you for convening today's hearing and i have a few thoughts on what is going on here in california and the

effects of legislation and tied into what the av vehicles could provide in the real area. excuse my illness i am home taking it easy. my role district in northern california was performing rise late at night which might entail people that have too much to drink or other instances but drunk driving and drowsy driving is something you want to avoid. but in the state of california a bill passed called av five that is the prolactin to be modeled after that so the result is a tried to

classified drivers as employees of companies when actually they really do have a ton of me with their own hours and their own workplace so california overturned that initiative process so what we are looking at is and in the rural areas especially are upset by a less choices with the uber operators as you can surmise less people the operating at those hours as in washington dc. it's harder to compete for

folks like that stuff we find we still cannot compete because of the effects then what can autonomous vehicles in a real searing wedding many miles between towns quick. >> thank you for that question. i thank you point out at the macro level the issue with regulations that sometimes go the wrong way. specific to av for example, look i would not consider myself world but it can take a half hour to get and uber or left out there and one of the use cases that is to load balance that where that part of the population

that doesn't get done magic of the service are better served something like autonomous vehicle operating on network. i think the issue is larger right now some states it's just not clear so for example in california currently a final prohibition on deployment of autonomous truck so until that is fixed, we cannot even start with respect to trucking and with the government partners to encourage a more future looking even having regulated the federal level for a while

but this is exactly the point i was raising earlier of a more flexible approach. >> let's bear down on that rural aspect with long stretches of two lane roads or even talking deliveries or how does it apply to areas that just have less infrastructure markers or whatever you waited have for an autonomous vehicle to tie into that? >> those are challenges we have to solve that is that we will go into but part of the mission is to deliver that technology not just safely that broadly we believe there is a huge impact far beyond

our imagination and certainly rural america is part of that i grew up in a very real part of town. with one stoplight. i can relate. >> i yield back. >> you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you chairwoman. and ranking member davis. i my constituents back home went transportation development to improve their lives and also focused on equity. so there is evidence av has potential to reduce roadway death and injury and with that

exploring the possibility. and this is more than conversation so can you talk to the constituents and people who are hesitant are not quite certain about av deployment across the country what should be the big take away outside of our bubble? >> the single a straightforward answer is the data is clear autonomous vehicles are not only safe that make a rose for. there is a crisis on the roadways as we have discussed a number of times and it cannot be stated enough the number of crashes and severe injuries and fatalities go up at an alarming rate and the overwhelming majority of

those, there is a contribution of human behavior issue whether distracted driving, drunk driving those are the numbers. and it is a big problem so autonomous vehicles the industry that we represent and members of our association of designing technology is a specific issue with a dramatic impact on safety in conjunction with many other solutions put forward by the national roadway safety strategy. not just of any other drivers and those across the whole gambit so that is the key thing so very quickly to read new rate with respect to equity the ability to enhance and expand mobility for individuals with disabilities and with respect to economic

growth it is tremendous benefits and what they are looking to do is fill out the national framework to scale that the claimant to the greatest number of people. >> i would like to turn is nice to see you here my former mayor myself so i appreciate you are here today i would like to ask you a local level with specific infrastructure is needed in your city for any dedicated lanes? and then what about the length of equity as a leader? >> with that pilot that we had in conjunction with metro we have a shuttle that was right on the campus of texas southern university and that

was phase one we are working on phase two and going off road now working through each of the phases we are hoping to gather more data to make sure the infrastructure works alongside of the autonomous vehicles and working with narrow is with businesses we see transportation become less of a barrier for the lower economic authorities. and then to deliver boxes across the apartment complexes in the core areas in the city of houston and one of the areas where residents need assistance with getting groceries so we see the opportunity of autonomous

vehicles to help the quality of life for some residents who can't drive to the store because they don't have a car or some get the prescriptions delivered so we see this as a new and innovative way for us to meet the needs of residents and implied on —- improve their quality of life. >> the gentle lady yield back. >> my statement would be that it can create quite a bit of confusion so we have to be sure it is a tremendous traffic safety hazard but i have a question i agree with

the testimony with the classification of truck drivers and i know those that because of forced independent contractor status and in california trying to crack down on his companies they need to step in and do more and that creates a federal task force and then to create this problem the secretary recently announced. >> thank you very much that the teamsters union has been combating for the last 40 years. and 90 percent of the truck drivers made good wages under

the teamster contractor wish that was still true today. i can speak to the california experience mentioned which came out of the court ruling against the package delivery company using independent contractors that compete with ups and the largest private sector employer in his district. ups driver makes $100,000 per year in california average fully paid family wealth insurance and a pension it doesn't matter if you have a criminal background or high school education, you can get the job. california law that passed and the portions of the accident deal with the classification comes out of a court case involving companies competing

with ups and undercutting those wages and that is the issue that is happening within the trucking and transportation industry in the united states. >> what did the federal government do to make it better or address it? >> having a task force is very important. the new tests that position on gas the provisions in the act as mentioned is a test in many states in the most rigid test to address. >> thank you very much. >> thank you the transport workers union for that provision for the infrastructure bill with transit safety with better production and blind spot removal and how does that help

them with general safety issues? >> thank you for the question. in terms of blind spots on buses it is true they are across every transportation district every transit provider. and then to maintain schedules and that is a disaster waiting to happen an example of where technology has such an extremely positive place of collision avoidance in order to protect pedestrians and the operator. it does have its place. i'm sorry last a second question but i forget what that was. >> because if they implement

it it solves the problem that is not technology can do having the blind spot. >> absolutely the technology our position is that technology should be utilized to increase safety, increase service reliability that where it is not applicable and working with the bus operator we believe the bus operator to be in control of the automation that campell a switch in a dangerous situation is utilizing that technology to improve safety and service delivery. >> we have to be very

careful. >> thank you to the gentle lady for her question. >> thank you madame chair. thank you to all the witnesses who are here today. thank you for your time and testimony with commercial vehicles no doubt autonomous vehicles become integrated into our current system in the current years. we must begin by preparing to legislate in a way that optimizes that prioritizes job displacement how to have the growth and deployment but also what we should be considering with safety regulation to ensure transportation workers have a place in the workforce.

that will put job creation at the center of their process and elements of these principles with the private sector for public workers and communities helping congress to have partnerships with the private sector in ways that facilitate support for workers and how can the partnerships wraparound to develop the training model? >> thank you for the question. the federal government plays a vital role for workforce development across the whole wide array of necessities going into the future public transit. as the federal government tools out money to transit

providers they need to make sure they are doing everything that they said investing in workforce development so workers are not left behind and involving communities deciding what public transit looks like going forward. you said a couple of times about the deployment of automated vehicles in public transit. and again we would be adamantly opposed to that. not just for the degradation of jobs despite what some people think this would be a job creator. talk about automated vehicles what that will lead to his said degradation of bus operator jobs we're posting that on a bunch of levels that the mainline is service delivery public transit delivery is more it's about service quality and reliability and we believe

that that is best utilized as before in conjunction with the human operator used to augment the operation of service reliability and scheduling in a positive way to ensure that the highest level it can be. >> with the success of pilot program in houston. >> and we had an opportunity to introduce a product to the community to the law enforcement officers at

there's any proms or concerns. and then you cannot do this alone. and then to do the best and then we are excited to bring services directly and then to provide shared services and then 1 percent of one car and then we are sitting in traffic all the time.

>> it was important they should start piloting with transit authorities and we learn and pilot and gather data with the national league of cities we are asking for federal partnerships and then to provide more data. >> i yield back. >> next we have mr. moulton for five minutes. >> thank you madame chairman for sticking this out it's a long time but we are grateful for this incredibly important issue. professor, if i may start with you has partnered with one day

without if regular regulatory framework testing and technology looks different in massachusetts, that's how i understand it. essentially they are burdened with the absence of clear federal guidance. beyond that burden communities like nevada and massachusetts, what is the cost to a national priority not to have these federal standards quick. >> thank you for the question. you are right the deployment it is a local issue with the verifications that will be affecting different communities differently and it needs to be some control at the local level and is fantastic to hear the issues around safety and labor but one of the main points that is not the only questions we

really need to be working at the local level such answer your question the role of federal government what's really important it does many things we been talking about here to support them and to support cities to make sure it's not only about safety and technology itself. >> to follow on on that us can be first where we feed the leadership. we need allies or competitors and then with that federal framework if china sets the rules of the road? >> it is a critical issue.

america is the birthplace and in many respects the largest amount of investment and we are the leader of that technology were edges are eroded with that regulatory framework component a national framework piece is a critical aspect and they are able to allow technology to scale. the biggest thing that needs to happen from industry perspective and we need to proceed with the way to enact the national framework we structure that into pieces with consumer and public trust in the technology first and foremost coming from

completing the rulemaking's and then the other initiatives that can help. but the second part is to maximize technology of correct one of the key things that comes from the scale of technology in the interim is the information that regulators and policymakers can get such a break that exemption cap with new and different vehicles on the road. >> so following on that specifically on your first point of consumer trust i hear a lot of concerns from constituents from artificial intelligence experts so why is

level three and above automation different than what tesla is using on the road with us today? >> i appreciate the question that the av industry are representing level four and above. level four level five autonomous vehicles don't have any expectation of a involvement. >> a lot of humans today so there seems to be the expectation they don't need to do anything. >> that to that point tesla is not level four or level five it is driver assisted technology it's very important to your point that we are very clear what the differences.

when they assume it's autonomous vehicles. >> thank you to the chair for giving more time i do think it's important for what the government needs to do. >> you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you for sticking it out with us all the last members that your last name starts at the w you are in the home stretch. and people say that congress rates the rules of the road that is usually just an expression accept on the

highway transit subcommittee because we really do write the rules of the road and it's our job to be sure we write it quickly as the roads are changing and innovation simultaneously when it comes to write the rules of the road this is no different and we must those that rely on transportation systems every day. feist chair in your testimony you highlighted the importance of achieving zero fatalities on our roads what role do you see automating vehicle technology to achieve that goal and how can congress be writing policy in preparation that prioritizes safety for motorists and pedestrians? >> thank you for that question representative williams zero is the only number four fatalities on the road.

we are recommending more pilot partnerships and more climates and then the areas. we need more data. with more autonomous vehicles to get their own safety standards until we have more information we need to do more testing so you can write the rules that are equitable across the country. >> and last week talking about many other programs and opportunities that exist with a bipartisan infrastructure law and with the safer streets and roads for all program aimed at reducing traffic fatalities. vice mayor, how could a critical program like this

support projects looking at these responsible technologies and reducing traffic fatalities? >> taking the air out of the fatalities. and then to take the human error out of the crashes that are happening on the roads. and on these autonomous vehicles have shown that they are stronger than the human eye. and they can react faster than a human. this technology is very innovative and it's very premature and still needs to be more piloting and data collected with all of this innovation safely to make sure we are protect —- protecting the public trust. >> thank you. mr. samuelson have every stage

of automated development. including research testing and implementation. can you elaborate and tell me how this is implemented how workers have a seat at the table every step of the way? >> yes. and what definitely needs to be done is that the federal government needs to set up a framework to protect workers and jobs and allow a situation where transit providers implement technology that eliminates workers. the federal government has an ability to have transit employers to develop engage in workforce development investment and to engage with communities and workers in

such a way where they are discussed well ahead of time before the time of implementation and those are happening now where they had power for instance in new york city that is a common element with the contracts in new york. but the federal government needs to adopt the uniform standards with city after city after city. >> my policymaking always centers around the building the transportation system acceptable for all is always a top priority. i do have additional questions i will submit for the record i hope i can get further answers and i yield back the balance of my time. >> your time is expired.

mr. stanton you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madame chair for holding this important hearing. thank you to each of the witnesses for your important testimony today. and with the testing of autonomous vehicles and operating a fully driverless vehicle and in scottsdale retailers for local delivery and in tucson arizona completing the first fully autonomous road on between phoenix and tucson. and with that transportation system and those who face barriers to transportation enhancing vehicle safety reducing crashes and increasing productivity and at the same time to recognize

that has the potential to alter the workforce to keep as many people employed as possible. is important for this committee in all of those for the witnesses today to have a seat at the table so my first question is for the vice chair. and i know firsthand at the local level to foster innovation. >> and to pilot we went to see partnerships with cities that have more testing and workplaces and provide more

data and working to have autonomous vehicles their own safety standards. >> and your testimony calls for federal leadership for those surrounding av. and then to facilitate. >> thank you for that question. in iowa we have a public-private multisector provision for avn create a space for this city iowa automated transportation council. and then to replicate these types of engagements at the level to have a clear and consistent vision and strategy and framework. across the nation in terms of the conversation we call them

silos of excellence at all levels of government we believe you can convey a national dialogue and conversation, make sure we have a broad cross-section including local communities public and private. like the cooperative automated transportation coalition. those are some thoughts. >> to any witnesses want to answer a significant number the challenges with use of connected automated vehicles is a lack of required infrastructure features to accommodate them in real parts of the country. >> .

>> thank you for that question. first is we do have to look at the physical infrastructure that we have the lane markings that we are in good condition but they do struggle to hobble on —- to have to make sure they have a stewardship investment. looking at the mapping and conductivity this is not a spectrum question and why it's so critical. these and then to have the opportunity to list the rural communities across the nation. >> and then we find a lie the

value at the state level by congress is doing today. and then in those particular issues on the point of part of the mission is probably. and with the role america and we need to keep that in the conversation as well. and there's a lot of needs with the effectiveness of the rollout. >> i expect that conversation. >> thank you very much thank

you to each of the witnesses for your testimony today you can see how many members came back after the votes just to ask questions. this was an important hearing your comments. you have testified today have been very informative and helpful. i ask unanimous consent the record of today's hearing and then to be submitted in writing and unanimous consent the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments by members are witnesses to be included for today's hearing and without objection so ordered. the subcommittee stands

adjourned. welcome everyone to 's

book night with mark clifford to discuss his new book today hong kongor