good evening, everyone. i am absolutely delighted to see

all of you joining us for the inaugural event of our director series for those of you who do not know me. i am christy coleman. i'm the executive director here at jysf. and again, i'm delighted to have those of you that are safely masked and distance in our audience here at the robin's theater at jamestown settlement as well as all of our guests that are joining us on zoom and to those who will be seeing this later for guests that are joining us on zoom and to those who will be seeing at this later for, all of our guests on c-span american history that is joining us this evening as well. so, what are we doing? right? what is all of this? the purpose of this series, quite simply, is an opportunity for us to expand our mission, which has been around for about 25 years. most folks know our mission

simply as the jamestown yorktown foundation through its museums, explores the convergence of cultures between native americans, europeans, and central west africans. but there's another part to our mission that is often left out, and that is to also explore the nick aziz tweeted to the nation. so this series is about all those things that have been bequeathed to us. the things that are more lighthearted, some other things that really are going to be oh, it's going to be thoughtful in engaging -- but the point is to help us understand that history is usable and it should be. not [inaudible] , usable. and so this whole series has some amazing guests that will be joining us and tonight is no exception. now, tonight you're going to beat doctor jason herbert. now, jason, if you ask him to

describe himself, he will say he's a dad, a former high school teacher, he's an ethnography or for the seminole tribe of florida, he's a [inaudible] conservationist, he loves turtles and tortoises or anything for the show. and he's a scholar that's passionate about the history of the relationships between southeastern american indians, europeans, and africans in the 18th and 19th century. recently earning his ph.d. from the university of minnesota, his dissertation examines the social, political, demographics and ecological transformation of florida with the introduction of livestock in the 16th century. though it also caused the expulsion of several native inhabitants by the 19th century. now, as many of you know -- or maybe i don't -- buy that many of you know, i am a huge movie

fan. i don't care what kind of movie it is. as a matter of fact, movies, film, theater, all of that brought me to museums in the first place. and so, one evening in august of 2019 -- i know because i went back and look through my feet to find my did i first interact with him -- was august of 2019. i stumbled on jason's twitter page at herbert history. and discovered his historians at the movie hashtag hatm, if you went to that sort of thing, right? and it's a multi media experience that connects historians and authors each week through their favorite films. at these are not just historic films. i'm ian, last week, last week it was what's love got to do with it? right? the tina turner biography. and the conversations that were taking place there were really amazing and the scholars were engaging with the public and

the public was engaging with them, and there were several really interesting points that came out during that conversation, and that was that throughout that film, we really, other than that music and the clothes, they don't really go into civil rights, or women's rights, issues, or anything like that, but it plays out in what happens. and then there was a considerable discussion about the history of domestic violence and legal changes. i was one of those who was stunned to learn that marital rape did not become illegal in the united states until 1993. the point is, regardless of the movie there is all of these amazing tablets that you learn, all of this got started with -- all of this got started back in 2019 when he started this with national treasure. the nicholas cage movie, right? the indiana jones movie, it is

really a favorite of ours. we are going to show you just a couple of clips about how this works. so, if you are interested you can participate as well. ♪ ♪ ♪ now since its launch jason has become an important voice in the network of historians, museum professionals, and others on a variety of social media platforms. this community of public historians do not just observe they interact with the public where they are and hopefully we are able to bring them to a greater understanding of our shared historical past. so if you are interested i encourage you to join us, because historians at the movies is now a franchise in the uk and in australia.

and like i said, every sunday night at 8:00 you queue up on netflix a film and you can interact with all of these amazing people. so now it gives me immense pleasure to introduce you to dr. jason herbert. please give him a warm welcome. [applause] all right, jason. >> all right, i guess it is time. >> it is time, it is time. i mentioned that all of this started with national treasure. so, how many of you actually wondered if there is a secret message written on the back of the declaration of independence? talk to us about that and then we are going to jump into some other things. >> first of all i would put in a plug, maybe the most famous moment in historians at the

movies history if you ask dr. joanne freeman whether you should put lemon juice on the back of the declaration of independence. but, hatm like so many other things happened entirely by accident. i had finished my graduate course work and i had retreated back to where i could do my research. when i did so i realized pretty quickly that i lost a lot of those connections that you have in college and graduate school. certainly while you are working on your dissertation and so forth, the conversations that you have not only in the classroom but in the hallways, over dinner, wherever when you are watching the game. those are the things that really inform your experiences, inform your scholarship, inform who you are as a person. when i left minnesota i lost that. i had to figure out a way to

recreate some sort of academic circle for myself. i got more involved on twitter, i had messed around with it earlier on when i thought i was going to create the greatest dad blocking site. i did not know what to do with that. but i did get involved. i happened to say one day you have these conversations between other historians. the running gag between historians and archaeologists, archaeologists get harrison ford, they get indiana jones. historians get nicholas cage, right? that is all fine and good. who does not love national treasure? but, i had happened to say that it was available on netflix one day. i tweeted out that we should all watch it. they were like, okay. let's do it. you'll be in charge. great so we do and it is a big night and a lot of fun. a lot of fun, right? we get done and i said maybe we should do this again sometime.

next week, they said. okay. we do, we end up doing lincoln and then we do murray and one at the next week would you cocoa we do trading places, and then we are off to the races. after five weeks we were just rolling with these movies that we have been watching for almost four years. that is how it is. >> great, like i said i was one of those people that stumbled on it. i do not really remember exactly what film it was. i remember having such a good time with it and making sure that i had started my netflix right at 8:00 so i was not two seconds behind everybody else that was watching. it was really an incredible thing. as i shared with our audience and our guests that the tickets of knowledge that come out of that are really really insightful in a lot of different ways, i think lincoln has been done twice, i was really into that because daniel de louis, he is just lincoln,

there is nothing else you could see for a long time in that. i am curious because having gone through all of these films and doing that, especially related to your academic work we all know that indigenous people have not been represented in film. i am curious about the elements of your scholarship particularly the idea of the introduction of cattle and how that impacts the society, how they are moved, and displaced, and then they end up becoming cattle farmers themselves at different points in time. i am really curious as you think about your own academic work and you see these films, and you interact with these films do you have a slightly different perspective on them when it is tied to your work. i know when i watch civil war films or revolutionary films i want to pulled a little bit of

hair i have out. how does it work for you? >> that is a great question it is definitely representation matters we will talk a little bit later about why we choose the films and so forth that we do. i say we because i am from kentucky and everything is we according to my grandmother. we are going to go do the vacuuming. i knew what she meant. yeah, representation matters. a lot of times when you are in the archives or constructing history at one of the questions you are trying to ask ourselves is what is not here? what is not being said? history, like everything else, is biased. people cannot help from the perspectives that they have, and so forth so, when you read a bunch of history as you not just read the one book, you try to say these other perspectives and get it what is not there. unfortunately with indigenous history many of those books and things have not been written from indigenous perspectives. they are often based off of

records that are biased towards colonizers and so forth. these were things that i was running into when i was constructing my dissertation, how do i understand how seminole indians felt about cattle in the early 18 hundreds? there were no diaries left by them at that point and time. all i could have were exchanges that were recorded, we cannot quite always trust those recordings and so forth. it was difficult at times to suss out what is really going on, to give something new. certainly that affects me when we do work that is about indigenous history. i would tell you that there are not a lot of big budget indigenous films right now. that is starting to change, people are turning their eyes towards more indigenous filmmakers.

not just film but also television, and so forth, you are starting to see more and more voices of people turning towards that that is a very good thing, the longest time we did not have that. i can tell you there is not a lot of stories or cinematic episode about indigenous florida about these changes in episode that happened in florida. where are those? it does leave you lacking a little bit and you want more. that is maybe the thing for me as a person who studies indigenous florida, i just want more, i want to see more stories and specifically more stories by indigenous filmmakers, trying to watch as many as i possibly can. we are limited, still, there is reason for it. >> that is another disconnect, there are very few films, fort unfortunately you are right but there are more works being produced by indigenous people over seminal, the last few seminal, years. what is arapaho. interesting, awra. i think in the seminal. general american seminal.

psyche there seminal is one indian,. without arapaho. recognizing the thousands of tribes and arapaho. experiences that they were neighbors say. having. and, the pair say. depending on who the europeans arapaho. were and came in nay when. per se. knee here we back c. focus on the english coming here. nipsey. but i am curious. how arapaho. many of you knew that the spaniard were here first? cree. seminal. that is good, mi'kmaq you are all. members and seminal you? good, yes. the spaniards were here first, the french. it is the magma. first permanent magma. english colony. that has taken mi'kmaq. over the american narrative without fully appreciating the fact that the french were in the areas of louisiana and the mississippi delta, you had french coming in through the great lakes regions, you had germans and dutch in what we now call new england. and so forth. the point, and the point that we are thinking a lot about here at jay why f is how do we

help our guests understand that diversity of culture has always been an american thing on the shores of north america? there has always been different tribes, different nations, even if they are in these confederations or collaboration's, displacement moves them into other territories that can create conflict, you have cultural influences that start playing into all of this. and so, when i was growing up my parents and their downtime comfort television watching was things like big valley, what was it? big valley, ponderosa, the rifle man, stuff like that. i would cringe watching those i was like how do you all watch

this. ? this is a horrible how they are depicting this. and then, over time as i have been trying to learn a little bit more and understand these different dynamics, i am really thrown a little bit by what you just said. the fact is as much of the scholarship as way would like to see simply is not there. the beautiful thing is we are incorporating other disciplines to help us. right? whether it is the archaeology work that gets done to help fill in the gaps, now it is dna stuff that can do it, i know some tribes do not choose to participate in dna. it is all just as i was reading your dissertation, your dissertation topic and i was like, okay so he is really trying to dig into all of this in this piece.

how long did it take you? i have to ask. >> to write the dissertation was probably four years, i was trying to tell three different stories, trying to triangulate three different stories and ultimately the book will try to triangulate five. i was trying to tell the story of seminole indians. i was trying to tell the story of the land that they lived and live upon today. and then, also, that animal that binds them together, the cow, how do you write history about a cattle? how do you read a history through a cow? ultimately i want to bring in these two other stories but i did not have enough time, that is these people in florida called cracker pioneers. and then, also of the maroons who lived in various states of freedom in florida as well. they are all related to this.

they all converged around this animal in florida. it took a while. i am about to pick back up on it in a few more months, i am going to fish for a while before i try to start this book. >> fish and talk about movies. >> yes. >> one of the things that always cracked me up is when the movie is when you are talking about holy grail. have you done that one? >> twice. >> i missed holy grail twice? >> you have to share with us from your perspective some of the greatest things that popped out of that for people's conversations about that. we have a family audience. >> i would say this, the audience for historians in the movies skews quite widely. we have graduate students, college students, a big group of college students in the history club at the university

of oklahoma. one of the big supporters of hatm. but also we have retirees, we have a big group. as a result, you have people, the funny thing about watching monty python and the holy grail if you have seen it before as you have seen it before. it is like going to wall disney world, you see something different every single time. but you know what's coming, you know about this rabbit. right? middle age about but they're watching their responses by younger people who have never seen this film, like, oh we're watching a movie about the middle ages, about the holy grail? what is going on here? right? and the fun part of hatm -- the movies are great, it's versus the back ride -- the fun part is the conversation between people and not between other scholars but between historians, between our dresses electricians, between assistant doctors and these other folks who have all these other experiences and relationships

to film or their passions, maybe someone isn't a quote, unquote historian but love talking about the religious. they went all the books. they're going to tell you a lot of the stuff about it. so that was the really cool thing is like i think with monty python and the holy grail is, what is going on with this from? if you've never seen it before, that was, that was a lot of fun to just watch people might get blown watching that from. >> so what's the film that the interactions may have surprised you the most? >> oh, it was jaws. >> oh! >> it was jaws. >> really! >> jaws change the way i watch friends. >> oh. >> everybody seen just by now. everybody's seen jobs. what came to understand about jobs was the personal relationships people form with movies and their identity and so. and i grew up in the 80s and early 90s, so i grew up with star wars and indiana jones and does [inaudible] relationships, the pot jaws was the one the -- movie jaws -- because we brought in some histories [inaudible]

along with this and so forth to talk about people who would talk about where they were, when they saw this movie. what they did as a result of seeing this movie. why they won't go get in the water because of this movie and so forth, right? and you know this gets back to the idea that history is that these movies are not just history movies, right? they become events, they become these moments in time. josh was the really the one that convinced me. and [inaudible] to pull this out, because you know a couple of decades that you've got jurassic park, and you've got a whole other generation saying the same things when we've been to jurassic park that these other generations said when they saw jaws. and it was a really neat moment to talk about how people related to this films, talking about what these trump meant to them and how they forged these moments in their lives and the movies that we have the best reaction to we've done a few like opening night kind of things. oh, this movie just come on let's fix this week, let's watch that.

but it's a longer but people don't if they're watching it before they can tweet along. the movies that we talk about best of the ones that people have close to right so that was -- just weather on the kind of change the way things went. >> oh, okay well. speaking about that, then, the impact, i don't think you can dismiss the reality as you suggested here that films can often shape how we view either the past or how we view, sort of, a current situation, right? and i'm often struck by that that idea that, you know, it informs us. i remember sitting in the theater -- and i, you know, a little older than you -- but when oliver stone did jfk. >> sure. >> and you all remember that, right? and so many conspiracies you,

know, the magic bullet and that this and that that and kevin costner was at the height at the time, and people were really just almost, i mean, kicking that, what they saw in that film as a call to action, which was really fascinating, right? i mean, and so this -- but we have to be really careful, because unfortunately, most people who do consume their history through popular culture, there's a problem with with that, right? so this might be a harder question, but this off, maybe, your top two or top three most problematic a legit historical films. >> oh, well. i guess, you know, being a virginian, and so, tight just so many elements of american history, i think the first american movie that would talk to the patriot, right? we love watching the patriot!

but what people really love watching this movie. you know, just like a lot of jfk -- jfk is in talks to me intoxicated fell, right? oliver stone [inaudible] can make a movie that kind of drives you and. patriot does the same thing, right? it does you stories and it tells us a lot about the reason why it was a big hit was because it told a story that a lot of people wanted to believe coming all the way back to the very beginning when you see this big beautiful battle that plantation owned by mel gibson and his family, i think [inaudible] it's a character's name, who was laboring on this plantation by african, african descent labor's and their families. although enslaved? in south carolina? [laughter] no! not according to this phone, right? they're just happy to be there, right? [laughter] and who doesn't want to visit south carolina? but not under those

circumstances. so he tells us that these stories, right? it's this one [inaudible] clearly benjamin but it is a good guy, he's an american guy. he rejects slavery, clearly, right? tells us these stories about america. and through benjamin what martin we come of these with these ideas that americans are heroic, they were gradually aligned themselves with the french. and then this nation, you know, in the context of this [inaudible] . so that's one, right? jfk, obviously, it would be another one. when local to hear. the disney phone [inaudible] with images of pocahontas and native folks and so forth, writer? that would be others. and you know, we can go, the big one here is going to be gone with the wind. clearly the most dangerous film, probably made in the united states in the 20th century. telling these stories of this beautiful southern world, you know, this history, right?

that is clearly false. but because people internalize film and truth, right? just like with jfk, this makes sense. it was beautiful, right? and we've got this great relationship. oh, this was about honor. this was about personal pride. this is what [inaudible] no, it's not what this war was about. the civil war is not one thing, it was about this horrible institution of slavery, right? that's what we need to understand about the civil war. many other things, right? but it wasn't about on, it wasn't about this lost cause narrative that this book and movie sold, and people purchased in, ingested for decades. and we're still dealing with that to this day. >> yeah. and as a matter of fact, i mean, that was one of, because of that film, we saw this, now on the museum side of the world, we saw the increase in plantation houses being

renovated to have, sort of, the brand magnolia tours, right? and virginia was great at that you, know, something that. and there would be billboards with these family to see in these, you know, hoop skirts and you know, the fans, and sitting on porches. and if they happened to be able to find black people to take pictures of in their, you know, holding the trees or what have you, it was really quite an interesting film. and what makes it, i think, such an important film too, is clearly it's extraordinarily well crafted film in terms of a hero arc, in terms of some archetypes that are in the film. i mean it's just brilliantly done piece of work. but historic film, it is not. as jason says, and it is one of those things that you know overtime people have this sort of love hate relationship with

the film, right? i mean, i know i do. it's a beautiful film, you know, clark gable was really lovely. but i have those cringe worthy moments. and i think i always have as a young person when this film, because it used to run on tnt all the time, right? in the early days of ted turner and the tnt network and tbs and all of that, and it was like his thing, gone with the wind and you can probably catch it every month, right? and what's interesting now is that a platform i -- forget which platform its own, i don't think it was netflix, it was one on one of the streaming services. and it has a sort of warning label in front of it that sort of explains it's historical things and some of the inaccuracies and so forth, before the film runs. there's some similar things that disney has done with their, some of their early animations

and films that were really pretty, you know, pretty, pretty horrible to people of color, not just black people. and some of you all are giggling, i know you remember, right? i mean, i will never forget watching -- i had to be like six or seven on saturday morning, sitting around, and i used to love watching little rascals, at the original little rascals. and they used to run reruns, on the same day that they run we runs of the original star trek. so i had really kind of an interesting childhood. and i'll never forget there was this scene and i stopped watching it after this and like i said i was a little kid, but there was the scene where buckwheat was their -- all working really hard, they're all trying to build something or do something, and buckwheat goes like this, few! and the idea was that he was a sweating the black off of him. and black paint or whatever just splashed across the wall when he's wiping his sweat. and of remember looking at that going, what is happening!

right? and i was a little kid! but these kids, you know, we think about, i think one of the things that i hope we were learning is these types of public and cultural expressions are not always harmless, right? they are not always just fun. and we see this in our work sometimes too. i mean one of the transformations that we've had in the last couple of years here at jyf involves some of our products in the museum stores. and when i started two years ago today, in the 19th of january, when i started there were members of the staff, particularly the education team, some members of the retail team, who were deeply concerned about some of the products related to indigenous folks and that was made in china and they are really, really, akin to selling

mammy dahl, like, really exaggerated oversight of the things. and they didn't want to sell them anymore. and that was one of the first things that we did. i said, okay, we'll pull them. they don't need to be there. we don't need to have those images. if we would not sell that then we shouldn't sell this. and in fact, we should be doing is getting our supplies and our materials and our you -- know -- the goods that we sell to the public, it would be great if we could get those things from our indigenous communities in particular. have them, you know, and it shows sort of this continuity of culture. because there's this other thing that, you know, you don't have as much of a problem, i suspect, in florida, as we do here in virginia and the carolinas, but this idea that they're that eastern indians don't exist anymore, that they are basically intermixed people who have chosen to call

themselves natives. and that is dangerous. because it feeds into a stereotype of what an indian should look like, right? and so, and that's why, again, those films sometimes, and these stories that we see, and the way that they're depicting people can be kind of harmful. and then there's the other movies that are just fun, right? regardless of how they flow. another movie i -- i'm sure, you've done it -- top gun. >> not yet. >> you haven't done top gun? what! >> i'm waiting for it. >> i thought it was not powered? >> okay. >> we only do netflix. >> when we do netflix, amazon prime, and disney plus now. >> okay. >> so for the first couple of years it, was only netflix, and the idea was that people know 8:00, sunday night, netflix, it's all i could do is worry about what feel we are going to watch on that. it took away from some of those top, right? and overtime, one of the things

aren't into was, i can't get the diversity of films, you know? i want to not only show a diverse set of films that reflect the different areas and contacts of war drama the, economy [inaudible] like that. but also representation of people, right? your free film can't start the single white male romantic lead, right? that's fine for them to be that way but it's like you need to where -- are the people of color? where are the women? where are lgbtq histories, and so forth, right? where are those stories? so [inaudible] express beyond, but what we have to do is wait for these movies to become available because all of these streaming services are playing for licensing and [inaudible] so top gun is a huge from, because when top gun comes out in 1986, this cements tom cruise for the next 15 years as the number one movie star in the world, and [inaudible] recruitment naval recruitment shoots through the roof, right? [inaudible] and i'm waiting to see top gun

to, right. i am also ready to go. i've been waiting for years to see this film. >> yeah, yeah, i'll be right there too when i watch maverick. but that was a really interesting thing. you're right about how naval recruitment was just insane and for the first time they were having the kind of turn people away who are interested in some of those careers related to [inaudible] . so again, the power of film. the power of film. and so before we go, i ask you the bad one and the ones that you've enjoyed the most. what's one last film before we open the floor to our guest that you would want to talk about, or the experiences of that hatm you want to talk about? >> i would say trading places. many of you remember this comes out in 1982 or 83, starting a very young eddie murphy, dan acrid, among others. trading places was the turning

point. when we started doing hatm we started with national treasure, then we did lincoln, murray and won it. you can understand why these are history movies. why are you doing trading places? it changed the idea,, for me, about what history movies can be. because when you are watching this movie it is these questions about where society in 1982 and 1983 when this film is being made. who is this movie being released to and who is going to see this newly-? what is this nerve a trying to tell us in the early 19 80s about capitalism or these issues? the bad guys, the very wealthy guys are clearly the evil guys. and, you have to get back at them. we have to do it by getting wretch. what does that tell us? and then you watch the verbiage, the language, they talk about race and sexual orientation,

you can watch these films to see what are people wearing in new york, philadelphia, the early 1980s? probably don't. but, it changed this idea that films are moments in time. i encourage you when you go and watch a movie, maybe you go watch the next film that comes out. the new spider-man film, this, that, or the other. think about these movies as moments in time. what is this thing trying to tell us about life in 2022, 1983, 1971, or something? that is always one i like to talk about. >> that is a great choice. that is a great choice. it is in that pantheon of 80s wall street movies. like wall street, wolf of wall street would come later and all of these different films that explore that era. what i did like most about trading places was new york had

not transitioned yet. and so fifth avenue all the way down to tenth avenue was some pretty cd places. all of this is depicted in the film. you do not have this glossy wall street upper westside image of new york in that film like you do with some of the others. right? so, we are going to take your questions now. if you have a question for jason we have microphones at each and. you are welcome to come and line up, we also may have some questions from our folks on zoom. we will be happy to take those as well. yeah, just lineup. let's talk movies. let's talk movies. come on, do not be shy. >> kristie, can we start with some questions from the chat? >> we sure can start with some questions from the chat. >> one of the questions i think is very revenant to the work

here at jyf is can we confirm the narrative films as a form of public history whether they're well or badly done? >> what do you think? >> i absolutely think so. it is a great question, what is a movie, right? you have to understand, watching a movie is the same thing as writing a book, just because you are watching a film does not mean as it endorsement of the film. you can watch it to see with the message is trying to be, and then come on to your own. absolutely, we think about these things, what is this message trying to tell us? what vantage point is being told here? he was represented in this film? why are people going to watch this movie and not that movie, right? the move is that we have that are being told, that are being sold to us are being sold to us because, in large part production companies think those movies will do well at the box office, or later on. people by the action figures, why? why do people want to see the story? because they want to see the

story, what does that tell us about the people who are internalizing this information? why do people want to go watch star wars? what is different about star wars? what is the message being told? when you look at it was very much a play on all their stories. what was new and different? why did that bring such a change to filmmaking? absolutely, all films are history films, first and foremost. when you look at them from different angles you can start to appreciate all of the factors and play around with the development and processing being sold. and, ultimately internalize a shin lies in the consumer. >> great question, thank you, do you have another one in there? >> i do. another question was asking you to comment on films that are based on historical fiction. like ragtime, that walk the fine line between being true to the author and historical accuracy, and how you balance that. >> wow, well, it is difficult.

i do not want to be the arbiter of telling someone what your art should do. right? all i can think about when i am watching this with a class or something, my job as a historian is to curate that knowledge and say, okay this is what this person is doing, this is what was really going on here, maybe provide some context behind that. history behind that that is what historians in the movies was originally trying to do. get scholars and. my friend wrote a book the free state of jones and then the film came out. she tweeted along with saying this is where this differentiated with the work that i did. this is why. there is a line, you do not want to make a jfk. jfk did well so the people who made it are probably doing great but ethnically what is the play? what are the morals at play to say am i selling you something that i know not to be true? right? there are's going to be some

dramatic licensing that takes place to tell a story. what is the line? do not let the facts get in the way of a good story? it is a difficult line. this is where people have to find a line to feel comfortable with. as historians that is also our job, when we do this as books we write other books saying this is our job. that is something we can do with them, that is not the point of these films. it is not to say this person got it wrong and i am mad, it is this is what they are doing and let me tell you a story behind this. that is the path to take, i think. but, other people's opinions are going to vary. >> i will jump in here on this one because i have done consulting on it too projects in recent years. the first one was a historical fiction. good lord byrd about john brown. because it was a work of fiction clearly the

introduction of the character union to take us through. he is a device as much as he is a character. if you understand that for creatives a lot of times they are going to have to compress people because of time, characters get compressed, time gets compressed. they are trying to tell this very powerful story and the thing that is interesting to me about the work that was being asked of me on that in reading the scripts and giving them some notes. i understood that dynamic. i realized i was going to let them slide on this one, but they cannot slide on this. the same thing happened with the film and harriet, i was a consultant for harriet. i was onset consultant as well as having read the script. there were some characters in there that i was very disturbed by again, it is creative license and you have to

understand that my job is to make sure that there are no egregious historical errors in this film. and so, i was invited to come out on set and there was another historian whose work they heavily relied on to do that. that the director relied on to do that, i was asked to come out to the set because they were having a very hard time filming a particular scene on a plantation. and so, i drive out in the middle of nowhere on route five where they were filming, i will not say which say it was, and i get out there and i was like this is a major hollywood production. there are tractor trailers, catering, actors, cruz and so i take me over to the area to inspect the house where her owners, harriet tubman's owners

are and they take me to the slave quarter that they have constructed. they have constructed a porch where they would have the porch seen. all of it was pretty good but i walked in the house and i said why is that silver so tarnished? they're like, oh, well nobody had time. i said no no, no, no, no, no, no. that would be a serious, serious violation if there are guests coming into the study of the owner of the house and his silver is tarnished. are you kidding me right now? so i'm like okay, how do we do that? you get something, you're right? [laughter] and so a, crew member, they called a crew member, and off they go to do that. we get into the slave quarter and i know it's supposed to be, you know, southeastern maryland. but there is like before pelt and there's all this other stuff in the slave quarter and i was like, no. that's got to go, this has got to go to, you can replace us with this. and i was giving them options. but then when i got outside, we were supposed to be filming

[laughs] they were filming a war scene in the fields. and these poor actors, most of them it seemed like had never picked up a tool in their life, which is why this thing wasn't working. i mean, they were all over the place, and people were indifferent, you know, they were like in little huddles and they were like [inaudible] and i was like okay, okay, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. no! and so, i literally explained to them, okay, this is supposed to be prepping the field after harvest and this is what you need to do. and so taking them through, and the crew came out, because actors are supposed to do this, right? i'm there, screw, there are people for this, set dressers, they're called. and say, bless their hearts, were out there doing all these things. anti said about how to get the rose straight, how are we going to use the children, because they had children, like 3 to 5, 3 to 6 in this film, and in that scene, so i said, this is the appropriate work for children that age. i literally had to show these

actors how to swing a break and a whole, and put them in lines so that -- i said, because you've got, oh, the guy over here on a horse who's supposed to be an overseer. and if he saw that mess that i just saw, everybody is getting beat down, right? [applause] [laughter] and so, but the larger point here is that they are works, they are creative works first. they are not, it's not a documentary. their creative works first. and as long as you remember that when you are watching it, the beautiful thing is, if the film sparked suit to learn more -- that's the best part, right? wonderful sparks people and they want to learn more about a certain thing, that's great. and you know, so you have these you, know, you have these moments. and i think, i was trying to think of one films probably excited the most as sort of my last question to you actually.

i'm kind of trying to think of the kinds of films that i remember racing is the most questions in people after they saw it, that were really popular films, that people were, kind of like, oh my god, what about this? so any thoughts? >> oh, man! >> because i'm trying to -- defuse that kind of get like that. >> there are. and a lot of them were, some of these were darker. >> your phones that we, that we ended up showing. because one of the things i really wanted to be able to do was to talk about dark elements in, say, in world history or whatnot, right? so i'm trying to think of the one particular fell off the top of my head right now that i'm thinking of that dealt with actually church, you know, church scandals on children and so forth. >> oh! >> which was one i, [inaudible]

. >> you said again? which from where you thinking? i thought i heard somebody say something. >> [inaudible] spotlight, i can remember, thank you. >> spotlight. >> that was the phone that people really said we need to know more about this, right? another film that really people came to [inaudible] which was much different relationship was cocoa, right? for the audiences that we get with hatm, to get the diversity that i want to show in the movies, a lot of times we have to turn to animated films to talk about diversity, talk about nonwhite faces. and coco was one of them. so there's a we can talk to, predominantly white audiences, as white hatm draws or there's lots of folks of color, but it's, you know, certainly non-hispanic, and so people come and say, oh, i want to learn more about you, know, this culture, right? and then this questions start coming what does this have to

do with immigration? because there's a story about being distance, right? it's not just about generations in the afterlife but very much about the contemporary world. so that was one really had time to do a lot with [inaudible] . >> great, we've got some people lined up here. at least a, thought i saw some people with somebody over here. yes, sir? >> hi. it was interesting because i was going to respond, actually, to a comment that you had made just before the last comment, and but then i'll try to draw the things together. we look at things with a different lens. a piece of art that appeals to you, i see something very different. in that context, i think the lens of the historian, where it really makes a difference, would be something like what i would just label authenticity. and that has a place in certain films. but i was really surprised that sort of the denigrating of gone with the wind and some of the other films that's not how i

saw the film at all. >> law. >> and so it, you both touched on this, but i was a little surprised, and i wonder if i could get a i could gain a little battles from the conversation here. and that is the role of allegory in historical fiction. those aren't necessarily designed by the author -- i'm a writer -- knows aren't necessarily designed to be authentic. that was not very necessarily their intent. john takes is a beautiful example. you learn a lot about the revolutionary war, about california, but the civil war, through john jackson. it may not have been historically accurate but that doesn't mean that you walk away without getting a feel for what the author was trying to do, which was to give you a sense of the experience that people were having during that particular context. and i wonder if you might speak to that, because it does seem to be that in the broader context, especially multi disciplinary, the different lenses that people bring to it is so enriching that you don't

want to -- just as history shouldn't be overbearing on the negative side because it may not be, it may be in authentic uncertain ways, on the other hand, it can serve a very useful purpose in and of itself. as you are saying, somebody asked, i guess, does the film become part of history? and yes, of course, it can, absolutely. just your thoughts on that. >> it's a great question. thank you so very much for asking. you know, the way i would approach it would be this. because hatm draws the audience, and if we all go to a movie, we're all going to [inaudible] if we try to go for pieces together, not five of us [inaudible] figure out what goes on it, right? one thing that i like so much about hatm is that white diversity. so you get people responding in different ways. and so when i talk to other educators, usually college educators, right, who want to use film, specifically to accidents and say, i want to get our [inaudible]

and see what, how do i do this? the thing i keep on is this. you watch the movie, see what they take away from the film, movie, that's fine. but what i really want to do is advise you to have your students watch who is saying what, right? what are they taking away from the film, right? and you know, it's called a story the movies, but everyone is a historian of their own lives, everyone's a historian of their own perspective, right? who's saying would? >> what is the message. >> well that? >> what is the message. >> what is the message being received? >> exactly. >> then we get to see, wait, was this an effective from a, was this, you know, was just a movie that did some damage or something like that? are people taking away certain messages that maybe it wasn't intended, right? that's a really cool thing to be able to do is to say -- and again, just because you're not quote, unquote, a historian, doesn't mean your opinions don't [inaudible] have. acosta. do your a human being. you have this lived experience based on your time as a nurse, as a mother or father, a son,

daughter, whatever it is that you do, right? it's part of this human experience. so, you know, your, your engagement, this is just as important to as anyone else is. >> i'll overstate it just slightly, but just because you don't like the one, doesn't mean i don't like the wine. >> right. that's true. that's absolutely true. the difference is that you just opened your one bottle and dump it on my clothes? >> [laughter] right? and that i think is part of the dynamic with gone with the wind, that this is a film that reinforced stereotypes. this is a phone that, you know, certainly centered white people in the civil war and the institution of a slave as a benign thing, caring for simple black people, black women in particular. oh, no, not to [inaudible] babies! you know? and it was you, know, it was actually an interesting thing,

because clark gable, you may or may not know this, but clark gable a few years later went to an entirely different film on the south, and about slavery. and it was powerful, and people were very angry at clark gable for doing that film. i can't think of the name of it right now to save my life. but i saw, i've only seen it maybe once. but he is, you know, he is, you know, sort of the dashing southerners who is you know, really intimate with his slaves. intimate. and he realizes he has sort of this come to jesus moment where he's like, all of this is wrong. you know, he's hearing, sort of, the rhetoric, and he decides to become, essentially a spy, i think it was, right? the spy for the north, as he, he his slaves are helping him like, you know, and all the people he ends up free. it's really an interesting thing. and i got to find, i got to find the name of that.

i'm sorry, i can't remember. somebody out there might no. if you know, put it in the chat, this club gable movie. and it came out in, like, 1942, 1945, something like that. really interesting. but yeah, i mean, like i said, it's a gorgeous film. the characters are all memorable. but it reinforces something that was really harmful you. no, and this, you've got to remember, this is, the movie came out in 1939. at a time when black americans were desperately trying to get congress to pass anti-lynching legislation, because violence against black people was happening all over america with impunity and so, and so this was -- you know, you talk about filament that backdrop and how they play over time and like i said, it helped create a whole industry of southern gentile plantation things. i mean, you think about

plantations, i think it's hard for some people to really understand or think about plantations as work camps or concentration camp. despite what you're great grandparent may have told you, we love to follow, she was my nanny or whatever. the question i always say as what happened to her children? when she was carrying for you who was caring for her kids. who is making sure that they were taken care of? how does that play out? those are very difficult things. film plays into that sometimes. it creates those kinds of disconnects. again wildly popular up until avatar. that knocked gone with the wind off the top grossing film? >> yes, it is still way up there. >> yes, it is crazy. we have a couple more, we are going to go back to the zoom folks. >> i just wanted to add that our hive mind in zoom believes

it is banded angels that you are talking about. >> that is exactly right. >> we do have some are questions that we can let the audience hear ago and then come back to it. >> band of angels is the name of the clark gable movie if you want to see what he wanted made to counter gone with the wind. it is not perfect but it is interesting. yes? >> have you ever done forrest gump? >> no, we have not. that is another one. >> i was thinking of listening to this stuff it came kind of perfect. he went in, went into history, thought a lot of things, stereotypes and the stuff that we had in that timeframe and stuff. i just thought it would be an interesting one because it seems kind of like that would be the conversation i would have on your chat box or whatever. >> that is a great idea. >> forrest gump is definitely high on the list of films i want to do it just does not become available yet. there are certain timelines,

brave heart is certainly out there. everyone wants to talk about brave heart. the people just cannot stay awake that long on a sunday night. i have to get up and go to work the next day. i am limited to two hours. but, forrest gump is definitely high on the list. >> that is a great film for something like that because it was light hearted and fun, now, think about this. the main character is someone with a disability. how often did we see that? that is put in a hero's role. that would be a great film. >> going through so many areas. >> yeah right? over here to our stage right we have another question. >> it is not so much a question as a comment it is a shout out to jyf i think one of the most brilliant films i have seen in a long time's liberty fever at yorktown. talk about messaging and relevance to our mission here. i think it is absolutely brilliant.

thank you. >> that is very kind, that is a shout out to -- films. -- the homes is an experience merry movie maker out of northern virginia. they have done a lot of these experiences around storytelling is key, storytelling is very key. thank you for that. yes? >> allow me this short intro to my question. two of my college professors were very influential to me in gaining more understanding from historical films. that leads me to a one particular historical film in my mind. which is, to you sir, or to you madam, do you think that the country would benefit from another film that is built like the film gettysburg from 1993? where it shows multiple sides, in that case both sides but

potentially even more depending on what we look at in history. would you say that a film like gettysburg and other one could help benefit people to understand history better? with complicated subjects? >> thank you, when the question was asked earlier about some films that i thought are problematic, gettysburg is actually one of them. there is a lot that gettysburg does very well and very interesting, that does not mean it does not have its own warts. a lot of that in gettysburg, and i have not seen this film since high school and being taught that it was history. i listened as a 16 year old boy in a formerly border state in kentucky, right? i listened to confederate soldiers waxed poetic about how we should not let the slaves go, and then just announced our

secession. right? why do i have problems with gettysburg? i have a lot of problems with gettysburg. do we need more films on civil war? absolutely. do we need more films on things that make us uncomfortable? i think we see in the united states right now we are really wrestling, we have for a long time with things that make us uncomfortable and whether or not we can see these films, talk about these things in our classrooms. yes i want to see films on the civil war but i want to see more things that are not necessarily battles on the field but battles between people and the institutions that might hold them accountable. certainly something we can always revisit. >> thank you, did you have a follow-up or are you good? you are good, okay. we have a gentleman coming down the aisle over here. yes, sir? >> growing up i had a lot of italian friends and a lot of them were upset, but not all of them, with the godfather. i am surprised you have not

mentioned that at all. because that certainly showed a certain side of a certain community that upset them. but, then again it was kind of an amazing series of films. one after the other. talking about lynchings, people do not know that italians were lynched in new orleans. they were accused of murder or something like that and they would take them out and they were lynched as well. >> right, ethnic communities and white ethnic communities, european ethnic communities before they transition in the next generation to whiteness were often, italians, polish people, irish could often be deemed the undesirable. right? i think you and your comment about the godfather is very interesting it is iconic a bit of filmmaking, right?

but, it really does depict italian communities in a way, not just the dawn and the creative criminal enterprise. there is an extraordinary amount of violence in those movies. i have to say, from a personal perspective i love scorsese, i think he is a brilliant filmmaker, but i do not wear the many of his movies because they seem like the same movies to me. whether it is the departed, gangs of new york, it is playing on the same thing, on something that he is trying to explore about white ethnic communities. y can. but yeah i, mean, what do you think about the godfather? >> i think i want to watch godfather one and two as much as possible as i can. i love those movies. but i have completely different relationship to those phones that you do, so, or that your friends too, or italian communities to. we've actually shown one and two on. back to back one night which was crazy, because it was like

six and a half ourself godfather, right? i think what's interesting -- >> want to do number three? >> no! >> [laughs] [laughter]. >> but i think what you said was really interesting because, you look at godfather, and your, it shows you this timing italian crime family and you talk about people coming over and sicilian, coming over and so forth. what i think is really interesting when you look at godfather from historical perspective is just as you said, right? what were the reactions out of the italian american communities who were defecting these foams? some i know were very supportive. that's an italian man committee, it's a family, that all people are! other people were, hey, i don't want to be associated with this violence and this very stereotypical idea of italians being the mafia members and so forth, right? so seeing the reaction from those communities, right? think? is this is how you take a movie about history and turn it into historical artifact and say

what are people saying about this? so i think that's a really interesting way to talk about it. and your, as a guy from kentucky, of english and german heritage, i can watch the film [inaudible] context because for me, it's art, right? >> [inaudible] . >> yeah. yeah, sure. >> yeah. [laughter] yes, zoom! >> and this follows on the question that was just asked here in the room in terms of thinking about communities represented in from. someone asked, how do you address contemporary movies which introduced native characters as only props? the example they provided was in the book, the revenant. the main character didn't have a wife or a child, but in the movie, the indigenous wife and the couples child which are killed,'s primary revenge journey. >> sure. that's a terrific question, right? and not just the native communities, right? but just for like, anytime we talk about, like a, films. i'm very wary of films that people of color, of others, as

stereotypical. and when we see those things happening, we talk about why those are. we haven't actually shown revenant yet. for a couple of reasons. first of all it doesn't quite fit, even though it's a historical movie, a historical film, it doesn't fit into that, that time spot that we [inaudible] which is about two hours longer to, ours were shorter. whatever tried to do is make sure that we have a very diverse audience, and hopefully we have experts on in the field of freewill who will watch the movie along with us who can kind of counter those narratives, whether it's a situation like in the revenant or something else. and i try to recruit -- academies -- this is one man operation over here. i can't always retweet people. because people's time is with money. it's labor, and you think about these things if you're an expert, if i come to you, you say, hey, we're going to do this thing, can you tweet along with us? people have families under the things. and they might not want to do that. so what i tried to do especially when have got a

really problematic film like, say, the reverent or revenant or something like that, please make sure that i've kind of lined up someone who can really hopefully speak to issues that we might see on that so that we have a little bit more of an informed audience than, hey, jason likes movies and. this is my journalist idea as a historian versus, say, someone who really understands, you know, indigenous culture in that, in that time period or context, or african american culture, or asian culture, or something like that so. that's what i try to do is try to hopefully get free trade of person to turn kind of make sure they kind of come along with us so they can kind of help out. >> another question is? were you -- yeah? >> just a question for both panelists. is there a specific era or historic event you think a movie needs to be made about? what kind of top of each of your lists? >> oh! oh! [laughter] oh!

[laughter] [noise] [laughter] right you -- go first! [laughter] well i'm kentucky, because i want to see a movie about christian lightning being the worst person ever. >> [laughter] -- >> i know of, got a big stories here we. need more stories about native north america. those stories are just as important as anyone else. those are rich in vibrant history. we need those made by native people as well. so that's what i'm saying. i live in florida. i work for the seminole tribe in florida, whereas hatm might do it without, you know, they are not represented i don't think. yeah i have such an appreciation for the folks who i get to work with and talk to, and would really love to see some films about seminole history. a lot also like to see other

films but creek indian history, talk to indian history, and so on. i'd love to see more indigenous roles out there. >> in contemporary life, right? i mean, that's the other thing. i mean, history, you know, we like to have some distance when we start talking about historic film and things like that. but we don't necessarily always need it. but for me personally, there's this one a little fragment of a story that i absolutely want to see made. and it's about how in the civil war, the u.s. army legalized prostitution in tennessee, and washington d.c., in an attempt

to stem sexually transmitted disease. and because of this work with the women -- and this is women, kind of pushed back because -- what they do first, when they show up in nashville, u.s. army, when they shop in nashville and they start realizing that those soldiers as well as their officers are getting a little sick, to the point where 10% -- and this was happening in the confederate army too, the just burned most of their records, right? so to be clear, whenever armies went into urban areas, the soldiers, about 10% of the soldiers at a minimum would get sick and were unable to fight. so when they landed in nashville in 1862 in, july of 1862, they decided they're going to round up all the prostitutes and put them on a boat called the idaho i. kid you not. [laughter] and send them to cincinnati! [laughter] right?

idaho, yeah, i know, right? that was the main -- that was literally the name of the ship. [laughter] come on! stay with me, people! anyway, so they think it, along the river, they wanted to take these women to cincinnati because there's a hospital in cincinnati, and they're like, well just dump them off their, and you know, and folks in cincinnati is like, oh no, you are not! right? you're not. we've got our own problems in cincinnati! [laughter] and they try louisville, and louisville is like, oh, you are not! we've got our own problems! so this ends up being a floating or house. [laughter] because the women are jumping off and men are literally jump -- despite of documentation -- mental are jumping into the river to support the vote because they have become now the reputation of these women. so to the point where, to the frustration of the general, they decide, okay. just bring them back. and they establish the first women's hospital in the u.s.,

hospital number nine, in nashville, to treat women. and the certain generals and the different doctors were coming, and women were talking about how they were protecting themselves against pregnancy and all the other things at. the women were saying, look, we are not the ones transmitting the disease here. and as they started, you know, calculating that they realized that the men were infecting the women. because the women would pay to be licensed and that license enabled them to be checked out monthly to make sure that they were healthy. so the women were contracting it from men. and so what they end up doing is it literally changes the whole -- it cut its deeds during the civil war. this experiment, in those areas, cut suvs in the civil war by 90%. and it ends up, by the time we get into later wars, the prophylactically are used to help prevent war. they take the young men and teach them how to protect protect themselves, right? and it starts in the civil war. and i know that that sounds really salacious, but it's all

true! [laughter] and that's the movie that in my head. [laughter] nobody else gets to make it! that is my retirement thing! [laughter] i am going to make -- i'm going to write the script for this movie and somebody is going to buy it from me. and if you, if you do, right? [laughter] anyway, that would be one of the movies because i think we don't see enough movies about women, empowered women, especially in the past. they're always, especially around war, there will be the weepy wife waiting at home, holding down the fort. she might fire a rifle every now and then. and she's keeping the kids and she's working the pharmacy, but you know, she's making the socks and she's, you know. but we never see women in this way, right? and that, to me, i would love to see women portrayed in those ways. i would, adjust would. i think it would be a lot of

fun and a really telling, telling opportunity. so, we have about five minutes left. we have one, we have a question here, and i think there was one more, or two more on the zoom that we will take. yes, sir i don't know, after idaho, i've got nothing for you. [laughter] i wanted to ask -- this question is for both of you all. it's more! actually i've got two questions but it's more for perspective. back in the 60s, when william shatner started trees, right? back in the 60s, captain kirk was, he was, like, making out with lieutenant sulu, with aliens, back in the 60s. >> right. >> what's your, what's your thought about that? >> okay, you're asking the wrong person. [laughter] because i mean, trek, the original series, the next

generation, voyager, i am that nerdy person. >> okay, so you're perfectly qualified then. >> the series did it for me, and you know why? because of herrera. uhura because we are now when we went out there the. first vice was up like one. do you know what that does for a little girl? when you first came when i was not even born. but again, that saturday morning, while i'm watching buckwheat, i'm also watching star trek. and it was just amazing to me that the first voice the universe heard from earth watch from a black woman. and that was powerful. and as an adult i, learned that nichelle nichols almost quit the show because she was getting some really funky mail from folks. and it was [inaudible] who told their she's got to stay. when was the last time you saw anything like this?

not in a black woman, we had an alien on the ship, we had a russian on the ship, we had, i mean, if we had, we had a scotsman. i mean, everybody was on this ship! >> yeah, back in the 60s. >> in the 60s! >> yeah. >> right? so that was an amazing -- i think it was, jean roth and barry believed in hope. and he believed in us. and i don't think we've seen films or television that has that -- we've become increasingly cynical and even though they dealt with some pretty heavy topics in the three years they were on the air i -- told you i'm a nerd about this stuff -- for the years that they were on, i'm in, they did tackle some pretty dark stuff. i'm in a, loved the episode where they had the guys that were painted one side black, one side white, and they looked the same to everybody else. but for them, that difference, if it was the white on the left are on the right side of the faith, let them to war. and so, there were these really powerful moments. but yes, star trek for me brought about my love of

science fiction and superhero kind of things. from an early age. and it kind of made me a nerd about that on those things. >> yeah, me too too but, i won't admit it, folks. >> no shame, no shame! >> okay, my next question. that was a good answer. that's kind of where my head was. my next question is, it's more satire, shock value kind of movie. mel brooks blazing saddles. >> [laughter] you take that. [laughter] >> we come dangerously close to showing that one and [inaudible] i'm going to get it on their. look, [inaudible] star trek of losing saddles, it's the artist tries to create these moves and what does this are just trying to say? running bear is trying to make this picture. he's trying to push american society, global society, towards this idea, like, oh look, we are all here, we are on the same ship, literally,

right? mailbox has got something off to say. and he's in a completely different tone to do so. and i think that we'll, we haven't seen that kind of tone in a while. so i'm anxious to do that on hatm, sometime, to, i'd be interested to see what some of the audiences have to say when confronted with some of the verb issues there. >> [inaudible] you have to do that movie with your people, i would love to be there. >> [laughter] you've got to follow along on twitter. >> thank you. >> yeah, great, great. well, we have -- okay, actually, i'm a little bit. we have about two minutes and then we have to wrap it up. anybody else have questions? or we could -- owe! i tell you, are [inaudible] on zoom are, like, rolling. okay! >> they have been. okay, your last questions. one, and this is actually could follow up to the question [inaudible] . two historical television shows

have a different roles and movies here? >> two historical television shows have a different world and movies then? >> historical movies? >> then historical movies. >> they have more time to tell the story. that's the biggest difference to me. i mean, they just have more time. so you can get into, sort of, nuance that you can't get in a two hour or two and a half hour film. i can't imagine -- i mean, i guess, if you really wanted to, they could've had a series of the titanic. >> sure. >> but it was troy a heck of a lot, you know, better to sit through that and just experience it in realtime, right? there's one series that has become really popular on netflix that folks were having a fit about in terms of its historic stuff. it's the empire period, 1830s, and that bridgerton, based on the books bridgerton. and the thing that was freaking people out with all of these people of color in empire

england and people getting married and queen charlotte being depicted as a woman of color. you know, which she kind of was. but you know, so that's really interesting and it's the season to i -- just happen to be on twitter this afternoon -- the season two images dropped and so the comments are really more directed -- people are going to watch it, it's going to be another huge hit, as the first season was -- you know, sean duran's, the creator of show runner, has been able to just kind of do her thing. and she, she's another, she's a great storyteller. is she historically accurate? far from it! but there are certain authentic elements to, to the gentleman's point earlier, there are certain authentic elements to it. but this is historically accurate know? . but that's not the point, is it? it's about the bridgerton's. and those great books. that's one of the things that i do worry about with hollywood and television.

i will say this. it's one of the things that have been worried about in more recent years. many of the major studios in particular, because there are such a risk in making film, is that they are purchasing all ready popular popular developed intellectual property. so that's why you're seeing so many things being made that are based on books, even if the books when that could. if they were popular and they showed that they had an energy and sort of vibe there to it, then those are the things that tended to get most of the green lights now because it's such a risk to create new stuff. and i think that that, potentially, is a problem. in that creative spirit three. but i digress. the last word, sir? >> oh, i think, you know, absolutely right. i think what we've seen over the last, especially since the screaming services have come along, and really kind of legitimized this cereals, now we've seen these rise in these serious. folks were saying, you can tell

these longer, more developed stories. another, i dad, like the yellowstone and is spin-off, 1883, especially, in a historical context. [inaudible] i'm going to go down that avenue. i was introduced to down at the. i'm not going to watch that show! oh my gosh, i binged out. i've seen it four times already. [laughter] right? i can't get enough of it. i'm waiting for the new movie. so they have the ability to really draw you as well, especially now that audiences. i think the way that we go to movies now is changing to. because we can put the new movie sent new series into your home. and the production values on several phones, on these, on television shows, are so much higher now than they used to be, that people are accepting of them, especially because you can watch them now at your own leisure. no 16 down at 8 pm to watch this show any more. we watched them when we can,

where we can. and so [inaudible] like bridgerton, like [inaudible] let down our be, now you can really invest ten hours into the show because, again, you've got time for. it's so, also powerful tools for telling stories. >> well, everybody, thank you so much for joining us. and i hope that you will join me and thanking jason for a fabulous conversation. [applause]

like to welcome you back to the hoover book club where we bring hoover fellows and friends together to discuss their latest writings our guest today is amy ziegart. she's the morris arnold and notaging cox senior fellow here at the hoover institution and professor of political science by my guest today's amy secret. she's the most arnold and norma jean cox senior hello here at the hoover institution and professor of political sons by courtesy of stanford university.