year dedication of the lincoln mario we are joined by author and abraham harold holzer lincoln to -- joined by author and lincoln expert harold holzer to discuss. what sets it apart? guest: one is just the beauty, the building and the

magnificence of the marble statue, the largest marble monument portrait in the united states, then and now. what further has set it apart is the use of this space i am sitting on all the way to the steps as a platform for the discussion of grievances, for the aspirations for a more perfect union, for what reagan called unfinished -- what lincoln called unfinished work. it has evolved into the setting for demonstrations, gatherings, meetings, concerts that all point to completing that unfinished business of his. host: describe where you are and for those who haven't been there, with the should know. guest: i am sitting about 50, 40

feet from the reflecting pool on the far end of the monument. and of course the memorial is behind me up 87 steps, i think i have that right. finished in 19 and they waited for it to settle on the soft ground before it settled -- for it to settle before they had the dedication. 100 years ago, the african-american community of washington came out to the spot early to get good seats to see this tribute to a man they still regarded as the great emancipator. for the ceremony started, the

park police rousted the african-americans out of their seats and moved them all back to right around where we are sitting, to the reflecting pool, a long way away from the mario in a roped off section and cheers without backs. what started as a tribute to the greek emancipator ended as a reflection of segregated washington and a separate but unequal society that still existed in washington and the united states. host: a history of the lincoln >> a history of the lincoln memorial and what it means today, that's what we're going to be talking about in this hour of the washington journal and on american history tv's c-span two. you can call in, you could join this conversation. phone lines split a bit differently, as we do it,

if you live in the eastern central time zones it's 202-748-8000 if you live in the mountain or pacific time zones, 202-748-8001 and then a special line for those who visited the lincoln memorial. we want to know why you came and how you felt about what you saw when you came to the lincoln memorial. sorry (202) 748-8002. you can go ahead and start calling in now, as we're joined by harold holzer this morning, live from the steps of the lincoln memorial. take us back before that date, before that may 30th, 1922 date. how did this memorial come to be built? was there any pushback against building the memorial at that time to the great emancipator, to abraham lincoln? >> the project was first conceived in 1866, a year after lincoln was assassinated. when you would've thought there would've been a coalescence and a, as i wait for a plane to go across here,

a unity of purpose. but it just didn't happen, and 40 years went by before congress finally, in about 1905, appropriated the funds, to $5 million, to build a memorial to abraham lincoln. and then the debate started about where to put it. this site, in the swamps of west potomac park, was not the first choice. people talked about union station, the base of the capitol, the naval observatory, meridian park up near the maryland border, the soldiers home where lincoln spent his summers. and finally, john hayes, lincoln's former private secretary, later secretary of state, suggested this spot. said it should be remote but not too remote. and the sculptor daniel chester french, who was the head of the fine arts commission of washington,

put the rubber stamp on this area. by the way, the speaker of the house, joe cannon, said famously, i will never let a memorial to my hero be built on that blank blank spot in the swamp. he even threatened to take it to arlington if people insisted on here. so, here it was finally sited and then french picked his collaborator, henry bacon, who did the architecture for many of his sculptures, as the architect. there was no competition. but the design was so beautiful. and then, bacon had the sole right to pick the sculptor, so he picked the fellow who had picked him. now, if that sounds like insider washington dealings, yeah, that's exactly what it was. and i would say it's a good thing that it worked out so magnificently. >> that statue of abraham lincoln, certainly the focal point once you get inside the lincoln memorial. but for folks who haven't been in, they're

explain what else you see when you get in and why it was designed that way. >> well, you're right, john. it was principally designed as a cradle for this 19 foot high marble statue which, by the way, at one point was going to be a standing statue. but daniel chester french objected because he wanted people to be able to see the face of lincoln from down here at the reflecting pool, all the way up, just a constant confrontation with lincoln from different angles. what else is in are the inscribed words of the gettysburg address and lincoln's second inaugural address. incised by a man named ernest bairstow. also some ornaments by eleanor beatrice longman, a sculptor long associated with french. decorative murals by i'm a

painter named ernest gagarin that no one looks at, sad to say, because they're way above eye level. finally, an epigraph, words, kind of a caption to the image, supplied by a new york art critic who had always praised daniel chester french. so, french, very wisely, said why don't you write the words that will be behind the statue. his name was royal cortissoz and it was he who wrote, in this temple, as in the hearts of the people for whom he saved the union, the memory of abraham lincoln's enshrined forever. those are the only words inside the lincoln memorial that are not by abraham lincoln. >> if you're subscribed to the wall street journal in today's reviews section of the wall street journal, a column by our guest, harold holzer. the headline, the changing meanings of an

american shrine. what are the changing meanings of that shrine? >> on dedication day, 100 years ago, not just because the african american visitors were herded off to a segregated area but for other reasons, the speeches that were given by william howard taft, the former president, by warren harding, the president. they made it clear that the subject, that the meaning of the memorial on dedication day, was sectional reunification. the reunion between north and south. 36 states, named on the roof of the memorial, 36 classical columns circumventing the memorial structure to symbolize the 36 states that were re-admitted to the union after lincoln's presidency and after the civil war. there was one african american speaker, the principle of tuskegee institute, russell robert moton, he had a

pretty fiery speech ready. talking about how, if equality wasn't the goal of a country, then this memorial was a hypocrisy. former president taft told moton, in no uncertain terms, we don't allow propaganda at the secret event. either cut or will cut you. so, moton given much more in a dense beach. from there you go to the easter sunday concert 17 years later, singing my country tons of the of the we saying, a statement about integration. she had been barred from constitution hall, right near the white house, because she was black. after that, of course, august 19th, 63, the march on washington. martin luther king says i am standing in the symbolic shadow of this great statue that, 100 years, later the negro is still not free. from that moment, the meaning of the memorial changes

completely, it becomes, as i said, a platform for protest, and for aspirations for equality. i would say also that the image morphed into the replacement icon of the country, replacing uncle sam. it's always cartoons of the lincoln memorial weaving at the death of kennedy, fist bumping obama, falling over backwards when trump is elected, on and on. he's the representative of the republic. it is also, as television viewers know and washingtonians know, the staging grounds for the night before the inaugural celebration. where president-elect come for their last night before they become president, for either gigantic rallies with fireworks and music or simple wreath-laying or, in the case of president biden last january, a very quiet tribute to the dead from covid. remember, there were poppy's all along this area in front of the reflecting pool, to represent those who had died from covid. >> we've seen, even

behind you guys are giving that discussion, the various people who come to the memorial. not just visitors but graduates and graduation gowns. i'm especially interested this morning to hear from our callers as well about what the lincoln memorial means to you and your visit is there. we have that special phone line for those who visited the memorial, brian is on that line, calling from new york. i'm sorry, bob, in texas, is on that line. bob, good morning, go ahead. >> yes. thank you for taking my call. one of the very early images i can remember when growing up is watching mr. smith goes to washington and jimmy stewart and just the, where he would look at it and he knew nothing about the

tailor machine and all of bad things that were going on in washington. it was just that ideal. and so, when my son got old enough i and he was in middle school i wanted to take him and show him that this represents, if you look at it and you can make your own way, individualism, but we also have to acknowledge all the things that have not been right for all sections of our population. we can speak out about that and try to promote things that are good for all areas. david small, he wrote a book called the presidents, or so you want to be president. he was a long time cartoonist for the new yorker, i can remember an image like you are talking about earlier with the poppies and biden. and remember the image of bill clinton walking up the steps after he had been impeached with his head down and they put that in the book.

i thought, wow, it's like lincoln becomes the ideal that people work off of. it is that one question. my question is, when i went in there and i saw the words under god on the left side when you walk in, are there other places in the memorial that show a spiritual emphasis, as far as how our country began? >> thanks for the call. >> you packed so much into that terrific statement bob, thank you. i should've mentioned, and i'm glad that you did, the same year that marion anderson sang on these steps, the movie mr. smith goes to washington opened throughout the united states. in fact, to prepare for tomorrow's anniversary rededication which

is, for anybody listening in the region, there will be a ceremony here on the steps recreating the ceremony to some degree. i'm going to be speaking, if that's an attraction, don't let it keep you away. but the current principle of tuskegee will be speaking. yes, mr. smith opens the same season as marion anderson, and that scene that you talk about, he hears a child reading the gettysburg address out loud from the wall. then, the film cuts to a black man with tears falling down his cheeks as he hears these words of promise of equality under god. yes, god is mentioned in lincoln's other speech, this nation under god should have a new birth of freedom. it's on the gettysburg address portion. by the way, lincoln added those words i gettysburg, they were not in his original text. but when he re-wrote it, he

inserted the words he had spoken extemporaneously at gettysburg. the other mention of god is a little harsher. over in the second inaugural address, where that is written in two panels on the wall, before lincoln gets to malice towards none, with charity toward all. there is a fiery paragraph saying that, after all these centuries of oppression, of slavery, if every drop of blood drawn with the lash has to be repaid by those drawn with the sword, then as was said 3000 years ago, so much to be said today. the judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether. >> so, it was invoking god for equality and rebirth on one side, and then for a kind of retribution against the universal sin of slavery on the other. >> as someone who's written more than 50 books on a

abraham lincoln and the civil war, studied it for so long, do you think lincoln would've been happy, with the two documents picked to be on the wall, his gettysburg address and the second inaugural address? >> that is a really great question. i will say daniel chester french wanted to add lincoln's farewell address to springfield, illinois from 1861. and also, his condolence letter to the widow, lydia bixby from 1864, neither of which made the final cut. i think, and i say this in the wall street journal, lincoln might have been equally interested in seeing the words of the emancipation inscribed on these walls. not because he wrote them as a rhetorical masterpiece. in fact, the document was written in legal ease. the words were meant to be legally binding. and not

necessarily soar as pros, rhetoric. but lincoln regarded the emancipation as he said, the central act of my administration. as he signed his name to it he said, if my name ever lives, it will be because of this act. but again, by 1920, with jim crow still in force, with the ceremony segregated, with an african american speaker censored, the emancipation proclamation was not the thing to celebrate. the white leaders who finally created the lincoln memorial emphasized the reunion of northern and southern states, and of course that meant, did not really take proper account of black rights, either those that have been built since the war, or had been denied since reconstruction. >> at the steps of the lincoln memorial, out to california, this is hamdi, calling in. good morning, you are on with harold holzer. >> good morning, thank you for taking my call. >> go ahead with your comment or question.

>> well, actually, i have been to the lincoln memorial several times. i live over here in california. it's always been a special occasion to note the history. i have been there more than once and i've actually just seen -- >> all right, gary in reno, nevada is next. good morning! >> good morning, thank you for taking my call. i was curious, with so many things going wrong, it seems like nothing is getting fixed, have you guys heard of anybody invoking the 25th amendment? >> gary, we are talking about the lincoln memorial, the 100th anniversary right now. do you have a question about that? >> i'm sorry. i was watching a tv show. no, i like the lincoln memorial. i think its a good structure. i hope people do not demonize it. but, yes. >> well, on that point, the caller

hoping it does not get demonized. we are in an era in which there has been a rethinking of some history. has there ever been a rethinking of the lincoln memorial? >> not yet, happily. during some of the protests in the summer of 2020, proactive fencing was erected along this plaza. protests were staged here as they were for decades without incident. but there was a photoshopped image of a vandalized, graffitied lincoln memorial statue that made it on the web, and it kind of scared people for a few hours before it was discovered that it was not genuine. but you know, a few miles from where we are, down past the capitol, there is a statue of lincoln, erected in 1876. a thomas ball statue, i

think the official title is the emancipation group. lincoln, with his arm outstretched, and a kneeling or rising, half naked enslaved person, the beneficiary of the great, liberating moment of the proclamation. that statute has come under protest. people have unsuccessfully tried to bring it down during some of the protests in the summer. look, it is worth talking about all of the statues, in washington, in the south, in the west. i personally don't believe lincoln should be subjected to that kind of revisionism. i will quote, as i like to do, the c-span historians poll, which is conducted every time a new president takes office. and that poll has once again ranked abraham lincoln as our greatest president. i think he deserves that mantle. as we said,

presidents come here at the moment when they are reflecting the most. bill clinton, at the moment of impeachment, ronald reagan when he is coming to the presidency. or franklin delano roosevelt, when he gets to washington, he can't walk up these steps, he never did. but every february 12th, his car came to these steps, and he managed to get, with help, out of his car and stand, leaning on his son on one side, and his military aid on the other, and take his hat off in the presence of the lincoln memorial. so it appeals to leaders across the spectrum, that is the healthy thing. we have all learned something from the lincoln memorial to inspire us, and to make us feel really full. >> the presidential historian survey! thank you for bringing it up. it puts abraham lincoln as the top president, ranking number one. and not just in the latest survey which came out in 2021, but every

time this survey has been done, back in 2017, 2009, abraham lincoln always comes in first in that survey, ahead of george washington, franklin roosevelt, theodore roosevelt, dwight eisenhower, those are the top five in this survey. why do you think he is always number one? >> because he not only saved the union at its most precarious moment, he also articulated the vision of the american dream in his writing, and aside from that, represented the american dream in his own rise from the impoverished, remote circumstances all of the way to the white house. so, he lived his dream, he articulated the dream and preserved it for everyone else. this country could've easily been balkanized, to use a later term. we might have easily been five countries. it might have not just been north and south, but north, south, east, west, south west, and northwest. and how

would we have fared against the nazis if we were not a united and strong country, the one lincoln left to us? >> grand rapids, michigan. this is brian, good morning. >> thanks a lot, i'm actually in minnesota, that's okay. mr. holzer, thank you for doing this show. i did not know that the lincoln memorial was built that way, and mr. smith goes to washington, one of my favorite movies, i was there, 27 years ago, by my brother clinton, who is living in georgetown. he brought by folks there. i hate to be flippant, but 27 years ago they had a problem with pigeons getting in there and doing their business. do you still have a problem with pigeons in their?

>> well, let's not flippant. they do serious damage to statues. i've been there a couple times since i've been down here, and i must say, i haven't seen any birds in their. so, they must have figured out. i think they were doing things with shortwave, you know, vibrations that inhibit birds at one time. but whatever they are doing, it's working beautifully. the statue is even washed down with hot water the other day. a picture was in the washington post, to get ready for the rededication on sunday, so the park service takes magnificent care of this structure, and i think you are overdue for another visit, sir. you have to come back. >> talking about that changing meaning of the lincoln memorial 's over that year, he talked about the moment being the march on washington back on august of 1963.

want to show a clip from u.s. information agency, film, about the march on washington. it just gives a sense of the scene there at that lincoln memorial. this is about a minute and a half long. [applause] >> 150 members of the congress of the united states rally to add their support. the support of the people of the states they represent, through the spirit of the march in washington. [applause] >> i want some of you to help me one about. i want everybody out here in the open, to keep quiet. i want to hear a yellow and a funder from all of those people

who are out there under the trees. let's hear you. [applause] >> yeah. >> there is one of them in the tree. [applause] >> some of the images there, mr. holzer, some 2000, maybe 3000 people according to some estimates there, that were there for the march on washington. what's that moment meant for the civil rights movement, and why the lincoln memorial was the focus of that event. can you go through that a little bit? >> i'm sorry, john. there was a little bit of a distraction. can you just repeat the question? >> can you talk about the importance of that moment, the march on washington, for the

history of the monument. >> apologies for that. it was transformative. by the way, not an automatic give me in terms of permitting. the -- i think, president kennedy, who did not attend the rally was, you know, generally order that is public space be made available to the public that wanted to use it on that day. we are talking about hundreds of thousands of people stretching way back as that speaker said, into the trees. but, once it king invoked the unfinished promise of the emancipation, i think, frankly, it was a watershed moment principally for the civil rights movement, but also for the lincoln memorial. it became the symbol of what lincoln himself had called, in the words of the gettysburg address, the unfinished work of equality in america. >> back to the phone lines.

we do have that special line for those who have visited the lincoln memorial in washington d.c., they are on that west end of the national mall. on that line, ocean view, hawaii, good morning. >> good morning, sir. thank you for taking my call. it's been -- i was just joining the reading in the united states, and i had gone from washington state to washington d.c. to go to college. i remember, one night, it was close to midnight. i was going to the memorial there. i remember, just being in awe of -- just stood there, and looked, and thought about all of the things that he had accomplished, and what a great president he was. he absolutely doesn't deserve to beat number one. what a great person. i felt lucky to be, they're lucky to be there. that's what i wanted to say. >> that's a beautiful sentiment. you raise a point that's worth sharing. although, daniel chester french did not know it when he installed the statue here in

1919, three years before the dedication. the statue is open. that memorial is open day a night. it's beautifully lit with the highest grade electric lighting, which french thought of. when he came for the dedication, he noticed that the skyline had been lacquered over, and their front doors were going to be open all the time. he quickly did some remedial work to make sure it showed two wonderful advantage at night. for those who have only come during the day, i would urge them to try visiting at night. it's a totally different, almost mystical, experience, to see lincoln in the light, the shrouded light against that white background in the darkness of washington. it's quite, quite beautiful. >> by the way, if daniel chester french is somebody you are intrigued by, a good subject, monument man, the art and life of chester french, by

author harold holzer. to washington d.c.. good morning. >> good morning, two point, my wife who died a while ago used to work for the department of interior. i know that used to -- i don't know if they still gave tours into the monument, the underground, the recesses there, that it typically wouldn't be apparent. and then, the other point, just last week, i was listening to some testimony by deb haaland about the atrocities that have happened to the indigenous people here, and it should be duly noted and recognize that it was under lincoln that, i think, the largest mass execution of some lakota people were done. so, you know, you know, we just have to be able to tell all the history. >> i agree. i would love to talk about both of those things. first, i think that color is referring to what people call

at the undercroft of the lincoln memorial. the memorial itself is 99 feet high. the under girding, the basement, we call it the undercroft, is 67 feet deep, i believe. the reason it's so deep, is because this huge building -- i don't know the weight of it, but i know the weight of the statue is 240 tons. that's pretty heavy. a very deep basement was dog, sort of, artwork, brilliantly engineered, and it still rests on this must be clay surface, like an unfinished basement. there is graffiti on the wall from the 19 teens. the great news, is that private funding has been a located to open it. tours are not given anymore, but it will be reopened in a few years as a visitor center.

with a bookstore, and a place to see the graffiti that that workers left. it should be a tourist attraction in itself. the best news of all of that, aside from the engineering miracles that represents, is that it's always about 70 degrees in there. it's like a cave in missouri. it's 70 degrees in the winter, and it's 70 degrees in the summer. i can tell you, from this plaza, that it is not 70 degrees in washington today. it's somewhat warmer. but, a word about the lakota. in 1862, there was an uprising in minnesota. people said land, the usual land squabbles. native people have been moved off their land. they came back, allegedly violating a treaty. anyway, there were huge battles. ultimately, almost 300 native

people were arrested and condemned to death. the governor of minnesota told president lincoln that it was necessary because of the approaching off-year election. that the execution go forward, and lincoln said, i am not going to hang people for vote. i wanted to see every case. i want to review every single case. yes, ultimately, and this is a, kind of, a tragic half, glass half empty story. 38 condemned men were executed. they had, according to the trial records, committed murder or rape, or infanticide, or other atrocities, but lincoln parted more than 250 condemned people. so, whether you consider him a great partner or a mass executioner, of course, is open to discussion, and i absolutely agree with you that every part of that story needs to be told. >> you focused a bit on the

lincoln memorial as a focal point of the civil rights movement. what about it being out for a point of a protest against the vietnam war? >> i think one of the reason about the vietnam memorial was cited near here, is that, indeed, it was a focal point for the anti-war movement as well. and the gay rights movement, and that women's right movement. again, movements for change have coalesced around this. i think, lincoln's reputation, as a change movement, is such a term he would've recognized, is what served as a magnet for groups that feel they are underrepresented, underserved, or in our equitably treated. probably the most notable time of the anti war protests came one night in, i believe, 1969, when richard nixon paid an unannounced visit to that

lincoln memorial at night, to meet with, or at least dialogue with some of the protesters who were camping out inside of the atrium of the top of the steps. it wasn't televised. it was announced. but, we do have some wonderful archival photographs of nixon looking very uncomfortable, and the protesters looking very befuddled to see the president that they disliked so much among them. it may have been a good moment though, i want to our people aired their differences in front of a man who had a certainly, that statue of a man, who had certainly been buffeted by criticism in his day. >> eureka, montana, this is dan. good morning. >> good morning. i always said the march on washington, think i

was eight years old, my parents took me and my little sister. i just remember it as a very peaceful and adventurous day, lots of people of all different kinds. i remember peter, paul and mary and of course the martin luther king speech. just that everybody got along real well and all i remember, we were kind of camped out over underneath the closest tree to the steps maybe. i was only eight and my parents let me, oh, okay, it was hot and i wanted to dip my feet in the reflecting pool. okay, we'll be here, come back when you're done. i went swimming for an hour and got cool, came back and it was a wonderful time, had a great time and i'm glad i went to it. just kind of a

funny thing, my little sister was chattering a little bit when martin luther king was speaking. i remember dad saying, you might want to watch this because some day it's going to be in your history books. anyway. >> that's a wonderful memory. >> wonderful time >> wonderful memory. >> yeah. >> dan, thanks for those memories. mr. holzer? >> it was an extraordinary day. i remember watching it on television, and not quite the same. but you knew, when dr. king started to speak, that history was being made. not only american history but rhetorical history. an aside is that it was the first national speech by a very young man who had helped organize the day. if you go back and watch the entire event on youtube, you will see young, handsome john lewis introducing the

proceedings in that unmistakable georgia patois that he had, it's just fabulous. the same voice, the same rich baritone voice that he had. >> to tim out of minnesota, good morning, your next. >> hi, john and chris. when i'm thinking about all this, it reminds me of three really good books i read. black like me, uncle tom's cabin and all gods children. that was by fox butterfield, you've had him on the show. if you want to read something about oppression and the lasting effects of oppression, those are some of the greatest books i've ever read. black like me is a true

story of a guy, i think in the 50s, i forget his name but he alters himself to look african american. got away with it and it went down differently. i think about it all because, you know how people say, you know, slavery was, you know, here and gone, blah blah blah. i just don't believe that the lasting effect of oppression disappear that easily. especially when there's so much un-acknowledgement of what happened. >> mr. holzer, take us back to 1922 and some of those issues and how the nation was dealing with it at the dedication of the monument behind you. >> well, i would

say, principally, the nation was not dealing with it. the wilson administration, which had preceded warren harding's administration, had very openly and unapologetically re-segregated the federal bureaucracy. advances that were made and opening up federal jobs and agencies to employment and the right to rise in those jobs by african americans was just thwarted and reversed by woodrow wilson. something some people don't often remember about his administration. warren harding was actually better on civil rights but, again, if you don't allow your only black orator of the day to say what's in his heart and on his mind about lincoln's unfinished work, about the need to live up to his aspirations for equal justice, then you're still operating in an area of hypocrisy as moten new in his

gut. so, the nation was not yet ready to make strides, the jim crow era was still upon us. confederate monuments were still rising in the former confederacy. i think, looking back and in my own work on this memorial, i focused on the art, i focused on daniel chester french. because, as john said, i wrote a biography of french. but i think the memorial itself focused on an incomplete american story. yes, sectional reunion was crucial to making america strong in the post world war i era, leading up to the world war ii era. but making it strong for whom was a serious question that would remain unanswered until dr. king raised it, forcefully, again. standing under that statue, saying the negro is

still not free. 100 years after the promise was made. it was exactly 100 years after the emancipation. so, it's kind of a mixed emotion for me to think about 1922. they missed the lead, as we say in the journalism business. but they still created a magnificent work of art and a magnificent building for which we can still be grateful. >> one more historical note on that day, may the 30th, 1922. abraham lincoln's son attended the dedication ceremony. >> he did. he was one of those bearded old white men who is up there on the top of the top step, edwin markham, the poet, robert lincoln and uncle joe cannon, the former speaker of the house who didn't want the building built there. they were all up there. we all regret, lincoln students regret, that robert had nothing to say that day. he was 79 years old, wasn't well, and he had his personal physician with him. so, i think he was worried about the effect

of the day on his health. but he was there. and that meant a lot, i think, in terms of the continuity of the lincoln family as such as it was. it would not last very long. >> tina is next, calling in from montana as well. cascade, montana. good morning. >> good morning, thank you for taking my call. i was fortunate enough to visit the lincoln memorial probably about ten years ago. the only other place in washington that affected me as deeply as the lincoln memorial did was arlington cemetery. they are both, for me, very reverent. i was very just moved, so deeply, by the lincoln memorial. part of the reason was because i grew up in rural montana, i went to a country school where there were eight students. i remember very

clearly, on the wall in our school, was a picture of president washington and a picture of president lincoln. we studied both of those presidents very deeply in our country school. i don't want to take anything away from the emancipation proclamation, the whole slavery issue, that was a pivotal point in american history. but one thing that affected my family deeply was the homestead act, which was also lincoln's stroke of a pen. because of that, my family now lives instead of ohio and missouri, we live in montana. so, for me, it's very personal.

i was just enthralled with those statues. he's huge, he's very real and i've never felt but so enthralled with the president in my life, so i just wanted to say that. >> tina, thanks for the. call mr. holzer? >> that was very moving. very on point. we all want presidents to be able to focus on all areas of policy at once. and while abraham lincoln was consumed with the civil war for every single day of his presidency after april, 1861, it is true that he had a domestic agenda other than the military. he signed the homestead act, as we mentioned, it gave land to people who are willing to brave uncharted territory, as his own parents had by moving westward, to kentucky, and then indiana, and then eastern illinois. he signed the continental railroad act, advocated for linking both continents. he signed the land grant college act which created

so many higher learning opportunities for black and white americans. so it is not often talked about, but i'm glad you raised it. the homestead act, and the other legislative interventions i mentioned were crucial to having a better country to return to once peace efforts have been restored. >> we talk about it being a focal point for change and movement. so, another one was on august, 2010, a radio tv personality, glen beck, the restoring honor rally at the lincoln memorial. here is 40 seconds to show you the scene from that day. >> he brings you the truth every day. now he brings you an effort to restore honor in america. ladies and gentlemen, the glenn beck. >> hello, america!

[applause] >> i have just gotten word from the media, that there is over 1000 people here today. >> and glenn beck there, poking fun of the media a little bit, the official estimates from that they were around 100,000 or more people showing up at the lincoln memorial. harold holzer, on that event, and these more recent events at the lincoln memorial. >> well, i guess part of me is still happy that

people find their inner lincoln, that they can rally around whatever part of lincoln inspires an appeal to them. i know that glen beck admires lincoln. he infamously borrowed the gettysburg address from the presidential library museum in springfield a few years ago, for a pop up museum. kind of got the museum into a heap of trouble. but behind that is an earnestness, a respect for lincoln. not my particular cup of tea. but i would not deny anyone the opportunity to rally here and to find in this statue, in this building, what makes america seem unique, appealing and irreplaceable. >> just ten minutes left harold holzer this morning. he is the lincoln forum cheer joining me on a very warm morning, in the west end of the national mall, right

there on the steps of the lincoln memorial. for folks who do not know, what is the lincoln forum? >> i'm glad you asked. the lincoln forum is a national organization which meets every november 16th to 18th in gettysburg, pennsylvania. you can find information about next november's forum on the lincoln forum.org, which is our website. or getting in touch with me on my website, harold holzer at herald holzer. com. we have great speakers, panels, battlefield tours, dinners, lunches, breakfasts, which are important. a great hotel we all meet at. and the ambiance of gettysburg to celebrate, and so in. we have been doing it for 27 consecutive year. one year, on zoom only during the lockdown. often reported -- recorded and broadcast by c-span. we are listening,

getting in touch, thinking about our roster of speakers, headed to gettysburg in november. >> and mr. holzer, i do not know if you had a chance before you showed up to this interview to go up into the memorial itself, but the park service put out a tweet this morning about having to close the memorial this morning, or at least the inside of the memorial due to a local university graduation celebration that left some litter, broken bottles, and champagne covering the steps, saying we are trying to clean up and reopen as soon as it is possible. did you happen to see any of that this morning? >> we are set up in the midst of some broken whiskey bottles and other detritus that has miraculously, and pretty quietly been cleaned up while we broadcast from here. but when we got here, the crew, producer and i looked around and said, how did this happen? not because it was in our way, these guys can, you know, set up anywhere. but it was sort of embarrassing that it was left

this way. but they have done a good job. i have to say, i did get to see the memorial yesterday, for the first time in a few years, i have not been down to d. c. since covid began. but, i met yesterday with students from purdue university who are affiliated with the c-span center for communications at purdue, in a tour led by none other than brian lamb, who will be angry for me mentioning his name. >> probably. >> probably, but whatever. >> we had a great tour that he let me lead with his terrific students. i hope some of them are watching. i learned a lot from them. so we had a good look around three quarters of the building. and then, ever the news man, ryan said, come over here, that is the vice president's motorcade crossing the memorial bridge. so we got to see a pretty exciting sight, just on the portico of the memoriam. i had

a great visit. i will go up again today, tomorrow, i will be back at 10 am for the rededication ceremony. people might wonder why we are not doing it on memorial day. the park service does not allow public events on memorial day, for fear it's disrespectful to veterans. and it's peculiar, because the lincoln memorial was dedicated on memorial day. but so be it. we are happy to be here on may 22nd, and we will be here tomorrow morning.ta >> and, hopefully it will be a little cooler tomorrow morning as well. time for a couple more fun color. this is steven blacksburg, virginia, online for those who have visited the memorial. good morning. >> yes, i had the privilege of visiting the memorial when i was about five years old, i'm 63 now. my father took our family down,

and we went basically all around them all. i didn't see the lincoln memorial. it's pretty impressive. >> what's impressed you the most, as a five year old, stephen? >> well, the statue of lincoln, himself. >> and, for harold holzer, on that statute itself, you talk about how that statue, and renderings of that stat, you have a sort of taken the place of uncle sam in some ways, in this country. i've got to show viewers one of those cartoons, the abraham lincoln, with his hands covering his face. but, explain that a little bit. >> well, that's his cartoon of the lincoln memorial weeping at the news of president kennedy's death. that really started the idea of using malleable versions of the memorial to express that

national mood or to influence the national mood. you know, lincoln had been portrayed on this mall, and the cartoon, as satan. during the civil war. here, he is a returning as a national symbol, fist bumping barack obama, taking iphone pictures of joe biden, that sort of thing. i worry, john, that i haven't said enough about daniel chester french. he started this statue process with a 12 inch height model and clay, just out of the depths of his imagination, to create. he made very few changes, as it expanded from a one foot model two or three foot model, two a seven foot enlargement, and then ultimately carved by italian immigrants in the bronx and the piccirilli brothers. this statute was created in new york city and in the branches were just open to the public,

open early this year because of this centennial. wonderful place to visit. you can see his tools, his models. the normal rockwell museum nearby has a special exhibit on the lincoln memorial. it did come out of one artist remarkable inspiration and hands. in fact, french's hands, a combination of french's hands and lincoln's hands, or the hand we see gripping the chair of state up at the top there. it is, you know, just how remarkable or covert. still, the grandest statue in the united states. worth visiting, for those who love american art and those who love american history. >> let me try again. one or two more phone calls. michael out of las vegas, good morning. >> good morning, gentlemen. mr. holzer, i've been enjoying everything that you have been saying. i was a resident of virginia, i

military brat, and i also visited that memorial when i was nine years old. i enjoyed all the reminisces. there is an overall idea there, whether it's for young people or four older people, there is something about visiting the memorial in the nighttime. in the hub of the day, and the traffic, okay. you have light, and it's very nice to come and see, but when the commotion of the city quiet down, and now things are peaceful, there is the circle drive around at the memorial. the planners and the designers really just created something transcendent. you find a place to park, and you take those steps, and your group grows more and more quiet as you reach the top step, and there is the city, dark with the highlights of the national

mall, and you turn and go in, my goodness. it really, somehow, some way, by accident or design, it all came together for that structure, and i don't care what you are telling, your persuasion, your creed, all of that is dumb. there is a reference there. it truly is a temple. i was listening on hold. i heard about the crash. well, you know, it transcends that even, in my view. you are always going to have pigs, but doesn't that say something also, in a way, i don't know if i am making it clear, but, wow, you talk about a place that is for all people. i'm so happy to see the centennial celebration. i can't believe 1922, it's already 100 years. >> right, michael, thanks for that call. mr. holzer, i will give you the final minute here. >> stay tuned for, if you can't

get here for the actual event, c-span is going to be recording it. i'm sure it will be on american history tv at some point. i tend to agree with you about the celebrants. it's a lot quieter and cleaner so i can be less aggrieved about the bottles of glass. but yeah, it is for everybody. if people are celebrating their liberation from lockdown by having an outdoor graduation ceremony, and having fun, maybe some of them misbehave, not everybody, or it would've been far worse. if they are issuing so in the shadow, an in the majestic shadow of this statue, that martin luther king junior described so beautifully, i think it's wonderful. i hope they got a chance to read it towards. because, we can celebrate everything great about america, which we do, but there is a still those two words inscribed in the gettysburg address next to the statue, unfinished work. i made it sound like three words, but it's too.

we have more to do, miles to go, and doing it in the glow of this statue is perhaps the best way and the most inspiring way to proceed. >> harold holzer, lincoln form a chair, author of the book and many books, but in particular, monument, man the life and art of daniel chester french. thank you so much for joining us on such a warm morning, from there, the lincoln memorial. >> thank you, john. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> if you're enjoying american history tv, then sign up for our newsletter to receive the upcoming programs, lectures, history, the presidency, and more. sign up for the american history tv newsletter today, and be sure to watch american history tv every saturday or anytime online at c-span.org slash history. shop in chicago i >> good afternoon, and welcome to a house divided, coming to you from abraham lincoln