stephen havre will be our gaps to talk about leadership, ronald way again, and the movement, he's the author of several books including two volumes in the age of reagan. greatness and patriotism is not enough about the scholars who changed the course of conservative politics. joining the conversation with phone calls, facebook comments, techs, and. tweets in-depth, with stephen hayward live sunday september 4th at noon eastern. on c-span. joe. >> hello and welcome tonight's program, thank you for being here i'm marcia eli, i come to you from the center from history of the brooklyn public library, and also presents the library of arts and culture. tonight, i am thrilled to welcome author james gains, whose latest book which comes

in february 8th is titled, the 50s, and underground history. i'm gonna tell you a little bit about what publishers weekly says. it says this revisionist history is packed with insights, it goes on to say that gains delivers a compassionate, insightful group portrait of singular men and women who spoke out on lgbtq issues, women's rights, civil rights and the environment in the 1950s. not the complacent area that we all maybe think it is. tonight, the partner's writer daniel -- and before i introduce it to them, i have a quick notes for you. first, while the book is not really for a few more, weeks it's a sneak peek. you can preorder it and we will put a link, to a local brooklyn

bookstore, the community bookstore, so you couldn't do that if you desire with just a couple of clicks. second, and like all of our talks you have the option tonight to use close captioning, that features at the bottom of your screen. and finally, i want to invite you all to share your questions tonight for james, type them throughout the program into the q&a box at the bottom of the screen. and then we'll get that many of them as towards the end of the program. so, now let me say a word for each of our guests. i will happily handed off to them. james r. gains the former managing editor of time, life, and people magazines. and the author of several books including wits and, days and nights of the endowed unwound table evening in the palace of, reason a study -- early enlightenment. and for liberty and glory,

washington, lafayette and the revolution. and daniel, great fortune, the epic rockefeller center, a finalist since 2004 pulitzer plies in history. last call, the rise and fall of prohibition. and the guarded gate. bigotry, eugenics, and the law that kept two generations of jews, et al, eons and other europeans out of america. he was also the first public editor of the new york times. welcome to you both, thank you so much for being here, i'm excited to hear your conversations, and take it away. >> thank you very wet, march, i'm happy to be here from the librarian bookstore for this past -- i want to say hello to my friend jim, hi jim. >> hey. >> jim and i met during the 1960s, were very old. in ann arbor, michigan, when

people of our generation thought that we were changing the world, we didn't change the world that much, but we did take a lot of self-congratulatory moments to some -- different than we were. what one learns from reading jan's book, the 50s, is at the 60s where the consequence of the 50s, as marcia said when she introduced us. the complacent 50s were not complacent for those people, who are fighting enormous battles that had great consequences in the 60s and many of them still have consequences and a positive sense today. kids cjim, why did you write ths book? >> initially, was because my kids came home from school one day and said, why is our time not as exciting as the 60s. and i had to say, i didn't say that it was actually fraught, it wasn't all fun and games, they were talking about the

music mostly. but then i started thinking for the subject, washington lafayette, and i started to think how was it that this black and white decade led to these the 60s. it just doesn't work that way. it doesn't work like that as you well know. so i started to think how did the 60s emerge, and as i was reading, it came to me that it wasn't the decade i thought it was. i can't say it wasn't at all but it was different and more complicated than i have known. >> and that makes for a good. book >> yes, it does. >> could you maybe introduce where we are going by reading the last paragraph,

introduction page. >> there's a theory that change happens not by winning hearts and minds, but by changing the law. after which hearts and minds will follow. one isolated people into the 50s however there's evidence of an earlier -- in the process of change. the moment when a singular man or woman sits out to confirm rather than evade some intimately percival conflict, which inspires them and others to change the hearts and minds of those who make the laws. isolated by their personal histories, idiosyncrasies, false, and gifts they have the common courage vision and profoundly motivating mean to fight for change. the feud this book is about some of the messages in that. >> that's what we're gonna talk about tonight. many of the people that jim writes about in this book, some

of them are familiar names and we talk a bit about a few of them. one of the huge contributions i think the book makes, introduces us to people who are enormously influential players in our nation's history, and very few of us know who they were. i thought we might start off jim, tell us a bit about harry hey, who is harry hey? >> are we, hey started the first sustained organization for gay rights in american history. and he did so, at a principle time. it will just after world war ii. a time when the united states, the soviet union, and nazi germany shared the view that homosexuals were criminal and potential security risks. and the church thought were wicked. and the medical profession

called cycle paths. and it was at this moment that harriet hay than married with two daughters, decided a member of the communist party -- decided it was time to start the gay rights movement. everybody told him he was crazy, and he did it anyway, because among other things he was incredibly stubborn. and he did it, it was called the -- and it was sort of like an alcoholics anonymous group, where you came in talked about that issue. but it took him three or four years to even get someone to join him. in that effort. in that time he lost his family -- >> what year are we in, jim? >> when he started, he actually got to start the thing it was 1951. when he thought about it was

1946, 1947. and in the time between that he lost his family, lost his friends, except the game and that he knew and that were his friends outside the home. he lost his relationship with his daughters although he tried to keep it up by paying child support he was supposed to, through the job at the weapons factory. this was in los angeles. and they lived in a neighborhood that was called the swiss alps, because it was a gay scene. it was a scene he needed to keep himself away from, which he had terrible -- as he moved towards starting this organization. but falling down mountain sides, pushing his kids down mountain sides, hurting him and his wife. i can't imagine the worst conflict. but he managed to do it, then as soon as he did it at the

first convention, he was voted because of his communist connections. by then, it was 1953. and everybody was scared to death of mccarthy. and they had every right to be scared of mccarthy, because the combination of communism and homosexuality is really not pretty at the time. everybody thought that they were spies. that they were being fired by the hundreds from the state department. a couple things jumped out of me reading about -- the environment. one was that a fact that i had no idea, the american army liberated the concentration caps in eastern europe we did not set free to those that had -- on their shoulders. >> correct. >> they were left there? >> they were returned to germany where the courts had sentence them to long prison terms. they got no credit for time's are in the concentration camp.

we knew that when we handed them off. >> that's 1945? >> 1945, 1940, six. yeah >> moving forward a few years, a phrase that comes up and the discussion of the society is the self respect as a radical demand can you elaborate on that? >> i think that says it all, can you imagine a time when self respect could be considered a radical demands? i mean, it's infuriating honestly. but at the time, that was the case. >> that's effectively what at that point hate isn't so seats were not advocating changes or laws they wanted self respect that was really the issue. >> self respect but they also wanted the video stuff to stop where cops would demand payment from bars, from gay bars and

also, they were generally oppressed. everywhere they went. they were real oppressed. they needed to have sex in bathrooms, so the police hung out in bathrooms. i mean it was very sorry site. >> so, when harry hayes is kicked out of the organization that he had labored and sweat to found that does -- tell us about frank? >> before i get to -- i'll tell you where it went. it went to a guy in san francisco who turn the organization inside. out he made psychologist part of the routine meetings. psychologist who told him they were sick, they needed help. he actually told the fbi that it would help them find gay

people in san francisco. that didn't come out until a very recent book. but it was terrible, but frank in washington who had never join the society, was he had got his ph.d. in astronomy from harvard. he was about to start teaching at georgetown when he went to san francisco for an academic meeting. because the paper there, it was brought in a bathroom having sex with someone else. and was arrested, and then he was outed to the civil service, where he then had been hired. because he couldn't teach a georgetown anymore. cisco. and but the civil service would not

know that this happen until sometime later when they called him in and said, what happened in san francisco? and he refused to answer, refused to answer, but then he just told them it was none of their business and they fired him. and then he, on a diet of 20 cents a day. i mean i'm alliance of 20 cents a day because they had no money. he sold his car to get that. he began preparing washington with this story. and complaining about the legal and moral insults that this represented. not only to him but two other gay man who at the time were still being fired at a very fast rate. because now mccarthy was really

in his high moment. so he graduated then to being perhaps the most successful advocate for sexual. the absence of sexual discrimination. and, including a appeal to the supreme court on behalf of a guy named ruth scott that was not successful but actually, the chief gusts justices thought it would be. but he knew the court would never take the case. and that is what happened. frank i many kept fighting and fighting for years. until finally he was able to go to the white house and. the obama white house, and they canceled clintons don't ask

don't tell policy. i skipped over the fact that franky anthony was a decorated soldier on world war ii. and 1 million millimeter motor crewmen and was prouder that of his infantry that twitchy were to that occasion. >> but that was, in his case, that was after half a century of his battling. >> yes. >> extraordinary. we have a lot of people to cover, but before we leave the subject, could i ask you to read the last paragraph on page 47? >> >> yes. and, by the way, a,

frank i many carry hay and their own none an own known court such a priceless legacy. they look to the bergman of shame for millions of people who the medical profession called psychopath, the church called wicked, and the states called felons. and they replace that burden with every citizen's birth right. self respect, and the respect of others. no one in the early homophile movement got more recognition in their lifetimes than harry hey and frank hannity. but what deserves celebration as much as are the victories they and their compatriots one is the model that they look behind. e. cummings famously wrote, to be noted by yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight. that is what they did. >> thanks, jim. for that section of the book it is about the origins of, really of american feminism in the 20th century, right?

i guess, american feminism post the voting amendment. the 19th amendment within the constitution. the key figure in this chapter, there are many women in this chapter who are really the kind of thrilling figures. but the one that struck me was polly murray. tell us about polyamory, if you would? >> thanks to a new movie she is finally getting some credit for all that she did. she began life, she was the. her mother died when she was three, and she was sent to live with her grandparents. one of them was, fought for the union in the civil war. and the other one was the child of a black slave and. i mean, she was the child of a black slave, but she was also the mistress, as it were. but i don't think she was, she was

the rape victim of her owner's son. so she grew up with people on both sides of the south, and she was of their skin color. what's she called in between race. which was especially a problem in school when she was young, because she was made fun of or that. and then as she became a teenager, she thought she was misidentified as a girl. she felt she was a man. and she kept writing to doctors saying, please help me. i know there has been a mistake. so she was in between both racial and gender. so, that was her struggle and that was her weapon. against the world as she found it later.

>> and, as she helps perform it. to me that part of the story really begins when she is in law school at howard university. can you tell us about that? >> yes, she was well educated. she went to howard. her background was in middle class. her family were nurses and professional people. and academics. so she was going around the country trying to save a sharecroppers named o'dell walter from the news struck. i mean, a legal news. he had been convicted of murder wrongly. but of course, convicted in minutes by a white

jury. struck that one stop she gave her speel in front of thurgood marshall and leon ran son who was on the dina powered law school. it was given as a result a full tuition scholarship to howard. she was the only girl, the only woman in her class of all black men all. because howard is a black university. and she found herself laughed at behind her back, she was not called in class as much as the other guys, as the other people. and at the first instance she was aware of what she came to call jane crow. it was the combination of sexual discrimination and gender discrimination and racial discrimination. her final of school paper was about how the equal protection

argument of the constitution could prevail over plus c versus ferguson, the separate but equal decision of the 19th century. her classmates laughed at her, but she prevailed and wrote that thesis. her professors better $25 that, no $10 that it wouldn't be, that plus he wouldn't be a return for the next 25 years. in fact, it was overturned by thurgood marshall in the well-known brown decision which she won in part by reading her thesis. which robinson brought him, because he realize he was really going for it. but she didn't address gender discrimination until years later. when she wrote a paper

called jane crow. and that was the argument that ruth bader ginsburg used when she was still an attorney to write the brief that won the supreme court's decision to declare sexual discrimination to be unconstitutional. that was a huge breakthrough. and it was because -- and ginsburg acknowledged that by putting her name on the brief. >> her role as a figure in american legal history is enormous. but we know ginsburg, and we know marshall, we don't know her. >> exactly. >> and we begin to see, i begin to see reasons why, not reasons, but i begin to see the nature of this discrimination very vividly around the time of the march on washington, 1962. by this point, she is a well-known figure certainly within the civil rights legal community. and the march on washington which we all know about is about to take place. and she is

not very pleased with the way it is proceeding. so she writes to a philip randolph who is one of the organizers. a labor leader will. could you read what she said to him, page 74? >> yes. and, by the way, a philip randolph in his march on washington movement from the 1940s hired her. he was her first real employer. and this is what she said to him when rosa parks, daisy bates, september clark's, all the prominent women of the civil rights movement were given seconds on the podium at the march on washington. 74, i am

not there, sorry. the time has come to say you quite candidly, mr. randolph, that tokenism is as offensive when applied to women as of when applied to negros. that was the word show is used. and that i have not devoted the greater part of my adult life to the implementation of human rights to now condone any policy which is not inclusive. >> were there any consequences? >> no. in fact, the day before the march he spoke at the national press club which then consigned women to the balcony. i mean, really. it shows you just how complex and diseased the relationship was between the black civil rights movement and the women's rights movement. >> but then, three years after

the march on washington, she plays a key role in a very important moment in american feminist history. >> she does. she introduced, she was on the presence commission on civil rights and specifically on the issue of feminism. especially the equal rights amendment. and she was i forget exactly what happened but, betty frieden reached out to her. i know. it was a piece in the new york times when she basically threatened action on behalf of feminism, or women's rights. and betty for dan reach out and talk to her and, polly murry described to her which

she thought of as a -- for women. and betty frieden picks up that mantle and went with it. polly murry alter. introducer to her network at the presidents commission and the rest is history except for a couple years later, polly murry quit the organization which she helped to start because of a lack of diversity. she said it was not the organization she wished to help. she was looking beyond that. to a movement of multiple discriminations, against indigenous people, against people from other countries, against a class, race, and gender. and she was not going to -- >> sorry? >> half a century ago. >> half a century ago, exactly. so she was a pioneer of what is now being called intersectional feminism. >> right. next subject, the third section of the book is about the civil rights movement. obviously an enormous moment in american history. i wonder you might begin with a little bit of back story on

this. the history of black men and their military service in this country. >> this isn't a chapter somewhat different, because it tries to rectify the imbalance between. well, it tries to minimize the effect that men coming over the civil war had on the civil rights movement and how important armed defense was to the nonviolent movement. when medgar evers, we know a lot about medgar evers but not everything. when he came home from service, he served from d-day to--. when he came home, he was on his way home on the back of a bus in uniform with his discharge papers and full of medals. and when the bus

stopped for people to eat lunch, he was left on the bus. i can't even imagine. >> this is in the 1940s? >> yes this is late 40 5:46. i think it was 46. and that year was an election year, midterm election year. and medgar evers and his brother charles had decided that they were going to vote. which no one had ever done in their county. and they, their parents were told, don't let this happen because you are not going to like what happens. the parents told him what this white visitor had said but they did not tell them not to go to the polling place and they did. where they were turned back by guns. and the threat of violence. they turned back and they got their own guns and they walked back towards the

polling place, and they were there to find more guns. and they said well we don't really want to get killed so they walked a home. they were notma's want to get killed so they walked a home. they were not able to vote in 1946. and i mean, it is striking to me that we are still talking about voting rights. there is going to be a debate in the senate tonight. maybe it is going on already, about voting rights. how can this be? it's disgusting. >> it's a historical precedent related to this -- about black soldiers returning from world war one. and there is a quote that, i could be the quarter do you want to read the quote? >> either way. >> okay, let me read this. this is a six year old girl remembering when the last black veterans of world war i came home to alabama. and she never forgot sitting up nights with her grandfather who kept a shotgun on his lap waiting for

the klan. she remembered him saying, i don't know how long i would last if they came breaking in here but i am getting the first one comes through the door. she stayed up with him, she remembered, because i wanted to see it. i wanted to see him shoot that can. who was that six-year-old? >> rosa parks. she already had the fire in the belly, as we say. i think that, frederick douglass urged blackmon to join the civil war on the inside because he was convinced that if they did their standing in the country would be as regular citizens. and w b devoid said the same thing and world war i. and neither of them got any credit. in fact, what happened

was that they when they came home in uniform they were met by white terrorists who said wear that uniform again and you will die. and that happened to one of the people that i write about. >> do you want to talk about isaac water at this point? >> indeed, let's do. isaac water was, he went in as a private and came home as a tech sergeant. he was working with a all black unit in, on the pacific theater. and when he came home he was on a bus he was going to north carolina where his wife is waiting for him and when they made a stop the head of the bathroom and so he told the driver, and need to go to the bathroom. and the driver said no. in fact he said no god it. and isaac woodward

said, tell it to me like i'm a man. just like you. which i think before the war he would've never said that. and so the driver, without knowing, without letting him know went to a phone, called ahead to -- and told the police there with somebody on has bus who is making trouble. got to base bergh where he was met by the entire police force of mates burke which was two guys, the chief of police and a deputy. the chief of police, the drivers want to get on top the chief of police. he did. and before he can get a word out, the chief of police beat him in the head with a special baton that was rigged for real impact. spring loaded. >> he is in uniform, right? >> he is in uniform. and he finally manages to get the

baton away from the guy, and started fighting, and the deputy came around and put his gun on water and told him he would shoot him if he didn't stop. so he didn't stop and the chief of police kept beating him. at one point, they can tell later that he had ground his baton into waters eyes, which indicates that whatever had made the mistake of looking directly at him. would urge was blind for the rest of his life. what can i say? and truman took. his case up. he was then truman took his case up talked to you by the, naacp. and you know if he was truman, a real who was a real hero when it came to -- when it came to civil rights civil rights.. he is really giving you can kind of that. credit for it but he

was the first presidential he was the first presidential candidate to every campaign at harlem. candidate ever to campaign--. truman said to his attorney general, you've got to look into this, and if if necessary, if, right necessary, and if right bring charges wing charges against chief of police against this chief of. police. that was just unheard of in the south in >> 1946. was this the same time that truman integrated the armed forces? >> it was the first time, that was about 1950. >> but he was the first to try. it's a new happened to him, but he was the first to make it a policy. >> and what it was supply for the rest of his life, he never knew the truman had come in for him and that a trial took place and that the judge in the trial was actually citing a bunch of precedents for the time going forward. he was alienated for his town --

>> in this judge, who is in charleston, have never particularly shown any interest in civil rights or defending the rights of black people, but he was so horrified by this. needless to say for that period, the jury acquitted the police chief. >> of course, in that. >> it took a walk around town, so they could not quite and fast. and his wife was in the courtroom, and he burst into tears. woodward never forgot him. >> a incredible story. the last section of the book is about ecology. aware that did not exist back then. -- >> it did actually. >> my fault. >> [laughs] we know a lot about rachel carson, who was a key figure in this, the great writer and naturalist, who was studying the -- what was

happening to our birds. she wrote that, science in the spring, which is probably the one that comes closest to it as it is unsafe at any speed, it changes the world's view of something. and in this case, ddt. there is a second character that you pair her with. that is nor burt weiner. and when he was 12 years old, the most remarkable boy in the world. i think page 1:49, you got it? >> yes. shall i read some? >> >> read that, from the bottom of page 1:49. >> gilbert weiner was 12 years old when rachael carson was born. but he was in the most tonight -- unlikely 12-year-old. while he was the fifth or sixth grade, he was

introduced your tufts university.. in 1906, that was the article in calling him the most remarkable boy in the world. it is hard to imagine anyone who fit that title. he told the world reporter that he had learned much more from reading the riddle of the university in german and homer and drake, since homer was just telling stories. yes, he said, of course he like to have fun, having fun as my forte, but i like studying too. when i've participated in the boys games, i turn to my huxley on my spinster. suggestions for them which led my mind to greater things. >> and so these greater things. weiner ends up at a mighty, extremely eccentric character. widely knowledge as a genius. peculiar life. i wish we had more time to learn about nor burt weiner's peculiarities. but he's talking a 12-year-old about the greater things in

life. where did nor burt weiner go with his life at that point. >> he got his doctorate in his post doctorate work at various universities in his post talk was with bertrand russell and john dewey. he was just a genius and not only with mathematics, but the logic of mathematics. it was a time when computers were being developed, in a time when the computer was a person with a slide role and a pencil. literally, that was what they were called. it was put into the war effort in 1940 or 41. that was in order to deal with the lift off, which was reigning terror over britain at the time. that was much higher and faster than anybody had known before the war had started. he was famous for working in brownie in

motion, which i will not go into, but he was really interested in the fact, and he came to this through his work, that you could put people and mechanical things, including electrical mechanical things, in a single task. and so he could see an anti-aircraft as a combination of people on the ground, the gunner, et cetera, and a circle of causality between the airplane in the sky, the speed of the airplane, the maneuvers of the airplane, in the ability of the pilot to do evasive maneuvers. and put a round circle of information which was, there was no enemy in this process. there was just a circle of information which helped the guy on the ground bring that guy down. >> but i will push you a little

bit, because i want to leave room for questions. but his relationship to the military changes radically, and this begins to be the place where he and carson, even though they never met, are coming together. can you talk about that? >> the military was responsible for all kinds of horrible -- the military in corporate america are responsible for some very serious implications on the environment. it was a time when science was accomplishing incredible things. among those incredible things was the atomic bomb, napalm, as i call on the, which hitler used in the concentration camps, as well as synthetic fertilizers, and synthetics of all sorts which poison the atmosphere, poison the crown for fires. and it was a time when, during the war,

los angeles thought they had a chemical attack because the fumes from newly-muscular cars were choking people. after that, the military started experimenting on the american public with dropping radioactive materials to find out what dose actually caused a problem. and they experimented on all kinds of people. hospitals, over schools, over suburbs, and it was extremely irresponsible behavior. we still don't know the extent of it, although a lot of us come out in the clinton administration, actually. >> and where it is weiner come in? >> weiner, when the war was over and he saw some of the stuff happening, in the

environment, but also the militarization of american society, in american science, they refused to have anything to do with military science. and at a mighty, it was almost completely subsidized, almost completely subsidized by the military. that was an incredible position to take. he was thought to be crazy for taking it. everybody thought he was just being nor bridge, but he never worked for the military or military science again and he wrote a book called cybernetics, which was impossible to understand for most people, and there was a book called the human youth of human beings. it was incredibly radical for its time. it talked about the necessity of treating labor fairly at a time when the great strike wave of 1940, six

1947 had made basically workers into communists. by taking this very strong positio . it >> winner, by taking this very strong in public position against the military misbehavior, in domestic life, the parallel if i may read something from your book, i think you very eloquently stated what is similar between heat what he is doing, and what rachel carson in her campaign against ddt, and the other places of the environment, what is she doing. you write, by confronting the effects of science, practice mainly in the pursuit of power and profit, and by calling for scientific innovations to be accessible and understood by politicians, policy makers, and the general

public before they were deployed, carson in weiner advanced a compelling argument, namely that nature was neither a thing apart from human time or was not even holy natural since anointed masters were ever more assertively rearranging the earth. as evidence of the dangers inherent in that mastery, they shined a very bright light on the masters at work. it changed our life in many ways. we want to go to questions, if you have questions, please put them in the q&a, but before we do that, what a better way to end the discussion then by your reading the last paragraph of the epilogue on page 205. >> okay. >> i'm going back to the way you started the conversation. >> that is the idea -- >> what? >> that is the idea. [laughs] my generation had our victories

to, but looking back, i can't help it feeling that people like those in this book would be more authentic rebels. in part, because they did not think of themselves that way. in a decade, right here than ever before, they defied the most powerful forces and conventions of their time, just the people that they were in the country and i've always promised to be. thanks so, that they have lit a path for the rest of us, to a somewhat less perfect union, which is about the best thing any citizen can do. >> a great way to end the book, and the formal part of the evening. i would like to turn to questions from everybody who is listening, if you have something, as i said, please put it in the q&a. and here is a question about polly murry. did she ever resolve her gender confusion?

>> i'm not sure. because of her feeling about who she was, the male part of herself, she was disappointed in love. she was only attracted to heterosexual women. but she did get over to the extent that she was a hero. how much more can you do with that conflict then what she did? at the end of her life, she went to seminary, because they had never had altar girls in the church. she went to the seminary and became a priest knowing that she would only have three years before a mandatory retirement. that speaks wonders, but she also had a companion at the end of her life, when she, loved and loved her. and so that, she did overcome her conflict. >> thank you. here's a question all the way from providence,

rhode island, from someone named allison pell. she, asks, obviously, this is a different take on this time in various individuals impact on change. would most of all should we take away from the book? in what does this teach us about the way history is written. >> i think more than anything, it is about extraordinary people. who's stubbornness, and conflict teaches them every day how to make change without their taking any lessons from anyone. it just because they wanted to be who they were. they want to have the rights that they were due, including self respect. i think is about that simple. >> isn't that kind of a variation on what has historically been called the great in theory of history.

individuals in that theory obviously, they're leaders of nations and such. >> you are kind of saying the same thing, but you don't have to be the leader of a nation to be able to make this change if you are the right person at the right time. or at least to get change happening. >> i would argue, that a president united states or a senator, as joe manchin and sinema are not, is the one who conveys to the president of the united states or the senate, the injustice of the position that they have been given and i think they gather the people around them and movements start from what they've done and i think what they've done and those people power don't come up those ideas themselves. >> and here's a question from jane with the dumbing down a central discussions from social media, what hope is there for meaningful social political

change? >> well just as it is difficult not to be disgusted by the lack of progress in civil rights, you can't ignore the progress we have made in gay rights, in feminism, and in certainly ecology. we haven't won all of those battles but we are further ahead than we were then. and as martin luther king said, the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice. it is very long sometimes. >> so these people are here among us now, and they are in the process of doing the things that these unknown figures that, mostly unknown figures from fairly recent american history they could move the world. >> yes, that is the case. >> that is a very positive look on it. here is an anonymous

question. do you think there are people. that is the same thing i just asked. let me try this one, well i think we know the answer to this by gregory asks, david iverson did a fairly comprehensive look at the 50s, why do you decide to look deeper into that decade? another way of asking that, what's key way is you are booked different from david happenstance book in the 50s? >> his book on the 50s was very good, for one thing. also it covered in depth of the things that we know about the 50s in shallow. and it didn't feel really with the people. well, it's a deal but fleetingly over the social issues that this book addresses. >> i don't have any other

questions there. if you've got them, come with them. but i think it is always gotten any discussion of serious issues to take a moment where some humor with gyms permission i would like to read a little bit more about nor bird we mere. may i, jim? >> okay yes. >> so this is weiner after he's establishes a very known well known figure. jim writes that he was fluent in a dozen languages. socially inept in all of them. as a colleague put its, a foreigner wherever he was. he got lost easily on his frequent meandering sweep through the m. i. t. labs where he worked for 45 years. some labs posted look outs to warn of his approach, because weiner was known to cut into ongoing conversations abruptly and holy out of context. while reading a book, or lost in thought, he would walk the halls with one finger tracing the wall. when he reached the open of a classroom or laboratory, he was known to follow his finger inside and around its walls back to the hallway. when he stopped to have a conversation, he sometimes forgot which way he had been walking. once, he

asked whether he had been walking towards the lunchroom, or away from it so he would know if he had had lunch or not. i just think that that is a nice. >> my favorite is that he swam on his back so he could smoke a cigar while he was swimming. >> well the reason i didn't cite that is my father did the same thing. >> did he really? >> well, he did it with a cigarette. i mean he loved the backstroke. we are moving a little bit far from the topic. i want to thank you, jim. we are running out of time. and thanks to the library, and thanks to the community bookstore, and thanks to all of you who have dialed into night to listen to this. or those who will be watching it shortly the recorded version which will be posted tomorrow. so with that i'm going to say thanks, goodbye to jim, and turn it over to marcia. >> yes, and i'm going to add my thanks to you jim and to you

diane for orchestrating such a masterful conversation about the book. and all of the readings that we wove in helped a lot. it is so important to tell the stories of individuals and elevate them and the power that they have to actually effect change because that inspires us all. i mean, there were some pretty shocking and awful things that folks were battling against that you described. so, anyway, i want to thank everybody who has come for being here. and to tell you that the program has been recorded and will be on our youtube page tomorrow. and,

just tell you a little bit about what is coming down the pipe later this month and in early february, we will have a another program about a book. it is called the last last slave ship with ben rains who discovered that clotilda which is the last known slave ship that brought enslaved people here from africa illegally. he discovered that ship in the bayou of alabama, and he will be talking about, not only his experience. he is a journalist. but what it means for all of us. and what happened to the people who are on that ship. and then later in february, early february, monte power it will be here to talk about south america. so all of that is to say that i hope that, i see that we have the upcoming programs link in the chat and i hope that everyone explores

that. and joins us for more programs later this month and into february and the spring. we are so grateful to both of you for, and jim, for this fantastic book. it doesn't get more pure than to talk about people, and their lives, and how, it has affected and changed things. and thank you for taking them up. and thanks to all of you for being here tonight. so on that note, i hope everyone has a wonderful evening and a good night. american history tv, saturdays on c-span two. exploring the people and events that tell the american story. at 8:50 pm eastern, mark lake, professor moon musicology and american culture at the university michigan recounts the history of the

star-spangled banner and how its meeting has evolved. and it's 1 pm eastern, author and professor latrice johnson, reports on how black soldiers between the civil war and world war i use their military service to further civil rights. exploring the american story, watch american history tv, saturdays, on c-span two. and find a full schedule on your program guide. or watch online, anytime, at c-span.org, slash history. the ancestral lands of the nokache tank peoples. greetings from the national archives flagship building in washington d.c. which sits on the national ends of the -- people i am the archivist of united states it is a pleasure to welcome you to today's conversation with kevin boyle about this new book the shattering. before i begin, i'd like to tell you about two programs coming up soon on our youtube channel. on wednesday, january 26th, at 1 pm, david keane will tel