thank the national archives for having us on. thank you, tom, for coming on with me. i have enjoyed our chat. been fun talking about two centuries a presidential history with you. >> a huge topic, but the time flew by. >> yeah, and sure did. thank you so much. >> thank you everyone.

as many of you know, the most divisive perhaps one of the most divisive elections in our nation's history was the election as many of you know, the most divisive, perhaps one of the most divisive elections in our nation's history was the election of 1800. president john adams ultimately lost to vice president thomas jefferson, and while the transfer of power was ultimately peaceful, adams did forego his successor's inauguration. i think that has also happened another time or two, but i won't bring that up. [laughter] and those two men actually remained at odds for many, many, years. it was only later during their retirement did they actually rekindle their friendship, discussing many different topics in their

correspondance, including the topic of death. adams actually wrote to jefferson in 1822 these words, quote, i answer your question, is death an evil? it is not an evil. it is a blessing to the individual and to the world. yet, we ought not to wish for it, to life becomes insupportable, end quote. he was 86 years old when he wrote this note. perhaps adams had become comfortable with the idea of leaving the world. but it was four years later that both men, adams and jefferson, passed away on the same exact day, july 4th, 1826. and while he was not present when his

father died, john quincy adams later recorded his father's last words, three very poignant words, thomas jefferson survives. he had no way of knowing that jefferson had died on the very same day. as americans then gathered across the country to honor the 50th anniversary of the declaration of independence, news of adams's and jefferson's passing spread. and what had begun as a month of celebration was now one of mourning and commemoration as citizens began to listen to eulogies, speeches, and tributes in churches, government buildings, and in public spaces. and while jefferson and adams had their own opinions on how they should be remembered, it would be up to those living in 1826 and

successive generations, even up til now, to define and to shape their memory. while presidential sites such as yours are frequently called upon to discuss the legacies of people who have held the highest office in our country, and one way, one very important way, one iconic way, is we all know these men will eventually die. and it's how that death is marked and remembered that becomes very important. our next panel will provide wonderful and different perspectives on this process. one of our panelists has actually planned a presidential funeral. one is a historian, and another oversees a presidential site defined by tragedy. these three participants will give greater insight into how these rituals and how these events changed over time, and how we can use moments like this to better understand the relationship

between the american people and the president of the united states, as well as how presidential mourning, at any given time, can reflect different elements of american society, politics, and culture. our moderator for this session is john heubusch, executive director of the ronald reagan presidential foundation and institute. and before i introduce the other panelists, i just want to take a moment of personal privilege here and recognize john's 12 years of transformational leadership at the reagan foundation. i had the privilege of working for and with john for several years in planning the reagan centennial. and he was a great friend, a great leader, and certainly has been extraordinary in transforming the work of the reagan foundation and preserving and continuing to advance the

legacy of our 40th president of the united states. so congratulations, john, for your great achievement. [applause] >> joining john on stage are my friend jean becker, former chief of staff to president george h. w. bush and first lady barbara bush, louis picone, historian and board trustee for the grover cleveland birthplace memorial association and author of grant's tomb, the epic death of ulysses s grant and the making of an american pantheon, and nicola longford, executive director of the sixth floor museum at dealey plaza. and nicola, thank you so much for welcoming so many of our guests the other day to your wonderful museum. please welcome us and our panel as we continue the morning's program. [applause] >> well, yeah, thank you so

much, stewart. as stewart mentioned, he and i have had the chance to work [noise] in the past, both at the red cross. stuart was just an absolutely remarkable head of the reagan centennial in 2011. he has saved me from one disaster after another, whether at the red cross or at the reagan library. wonderful to be with you all this morning. you know, i had a little trepidation when stewart told me that what he wanted me to discuss at his panel is death, destruction, tragedy, i thought, okay, this will be quite a challenge. but when i saw who our panelists were that you will be hearing from this morning, it's really -- i think you are going to learn a lot. i think you'll find this to be a real pleasure, even though the subject is a difficult subject

for, well, for all americans. and you'll learn about more in just a moment. i did a little bit of homework. i'm not a good mathematician, but i delved into some of the documents that the white house historical association pulled together on this very topic of presidential funerals, assassinations, mourning and the like. and the math -- you know, today we have six living presidents, including our current president in the white house. 32 have died outside of the white house of various natural causes. eight presidents have died while in office, four of those assassinated. now, as you can imagine, depending on the circumstances, very, very, different situations with respect to america and mourning, depending on the particular president. these experts have

studied just about every one of them. so, when we get to the q&a portion, have your questions ready. i think we know today americans are having quite a lot of difficulty unifying, coming together, on just about anything. but when you experience, when you plan, when you study the death of a united states president, we find that it's some of these very rare moments where americans actually come together as a people to mourn. whether it be the incredible shock of an assassination of a president or the natural passing of a president, the mourning is there. i read in one of the papers that talked

about how there's -- the quote is, no greater shock for the country than the passing of a president. and i remember that, you know, for example, i'm probably one of the elder statesmen here today -- i remember the passing of john f. kennedy. i was just a mere five years old but it was the very first memory i have as a young boy. and i remember i was living in arlington, virginia and i heard this thunderous noise outside of our home and i ran out into our backyard and overhead were the jets that were flying with the missing man formation, just moving away across the skyline of washington, d. c., and then i ran downstairs to our big black and white television set to see those very same jets on

television. and it's my very first memory, and a memory i will not forget. and i thought a lot about it as i was studying up on our panelists. what you will find is that presidential funerals, presidential mourning, is all about processions, the lying in state, riderless horses, teams of six white horses. in the modern day, television roadblock coverage across all of the networks. presidential library burials. i'd like to start with a show of hands. can everyone who has fully planned an executed, involved presidential funeral please raise your hand. [laughter] >> you're setting me up.

>> i am. now, everyone who has been to a presidential funeral, one of the events, or has watched one on tv, raise your hand. >> okay, there's a lot more of the second on the first. so, i want to, i'd like us to start off by talking with someone who has done at all, jean becker. jean, take us behind the scenes of what it is like to plan and involve yourself in a full blown modern day presidential funeral. >> it's complete chaos. what you see on tv, i hope, looked really organized and very together, it's chaos. it's a process that goes on for years and years. and i decided the best way to answer your question, i am not here to promote my book but my editor would want me to show this --

the last chapter is called the long journey home. and i'm just going to read something i put in the book, talking about planning the funeral. this is before president bush died. one day in maine when i had worked all day on the funeral, i came home to houseguests who were ready to do something fun for the evening. i was exhausted and a little frustrated at some of the problems i knew i had to solve. all i wanted to do was drink a bottle of wine and collapse. one of my friends was not amused! and with major attitude she said, i don't understand what the big deal is. you've been planning this funeral for years! how is it you're not done yet? what is the big deal? my answer -- i have a lot of attitude -- just imagine you're in charge of the event that will take place over six days in three, maybe four -- if he

had died in maine it would've been four -- different cities and involves a cast of thousands including presidents, and kings and queens, members of a very large family that live all over the united states who need to be moved from where they live to houston to washington, back to houston to college station, all the way back to their homes, all of which will be carried live on television morning, noon, and night for six days. and you have no idea when it's going to happen! none. when it does happen, you have about 48 hours before it all begins to pull it all together before the show begins, again, live on television, for the next six days. you won't sleep, you won't eat, you won't really think. you just do. my friend never asked that question again. [laughter] so it's just

-- one of the dumbest fights i had was with the man who was in charge of the super bowl in houston, and we literally had a fight about whose job is harder. i said, you know when the super bowl is. and he said, and i know you're going to agree with me, he says, but i don't know the teams until two weeks out. you know who's going to die. i said, seriously? [laughter] >> jean and i have a very close mutual friend, joanne drake. and when i first met joanne, she works at the reagan foundation and library. one of the very first things that she showed to me when i took on this job was a three ring binder, and i think stewart has seen this, about this thick, about six inches thick. and it was the planning. it was the plans that the staff put together for president reagan's funeral. so i know of what jean

talks about. and mrs. reagan's was just as thick. >> can i just add, quickly, that after president reagan died, after president ford died, after nancy reagan died, all -- joanne wrote long memos to me. president ford, who the man in charge of his funeral, a man named greg willard, wrote me a long memo -- they became my bible of how to do a funeral. it saved my life. and i did the same for the chiefs of staffs of president bush 43, obama, clinton, and carter. i wrote these this long memo, what went right, what went wrong, and we can talk about, later, some of those big challenges. but those memos saved my life. >> yeah. in a moment we'll talk about the sharing of those memos. but this is one of those, the best laid plans of mice and men -- and i want to put a photo up and ask jean to

comment. here we go. jean, best laid plans. sometimes there are surprises, big surprises that might occur, unexpected moments in presidential funerals. and here's just one. >> this is one of the best unexpected moments of president bush's funeral. if many of you will remember that president bush and bob dole were big political rivals, they had a very nasty 1988 republican primary contest. and both said some things that they probably wish they hadn't said. they became huge friends. and when senator dole -- this is when president bush is lying in state in the rotunda -- and he insisted on standing and saluting the casket. he's in a wheelchair now. and i had an opportunity to ask him why he did this, why he insisted on standing, and i can't tell you the answer without crying. he

said, i had to stand and salute that great man. this was one of the big pictures of the funeral that went viral. >> yeah. >> everyone -- it was just such a wonderful moment. >> yeah. louis. why so much spectacle? i mean, everyone passes at sometime or another. but why the pomp and the circumstance? what's the history behind it? >> yeah, that's a good question. because it's something that's built up over time. and jean is hinting that all of these plans going into six days of a funeral, going back to the beginning with george washington, with the very first presidential funeral in 1799, just to show how far we've come. george washington, in his will, asks for no funeral oration. so he didn't want any funeral. and one of the reasons that i surmise is that washington had such a

strong sense of republican virtue, and that in america, our leaders were citizens first, and we were much different from the monarchs and the tyrants of old europe. so he had asked for no funeral. now, washington was a feemason, so the freemasons had asked martha if they could hold a modest funeral for him. and they did, and i think there is maybe an image of the funeral. and it was just a couple of hundred marchers that were in the funeral. he was -- he died and was interred at mount vernon. but the funeral did set some precedents that are still in practice today. the military flourishes, the 21 gun salute, the riderless horse that we still see today. now, over time, with advances in technology, and as the country

grew, funerals began to become more elaborate. and significantly, when the president died in office, like william henry harrison being the first president to die in office in washington d. c., there was a funeral procession which might a little bit resemble of what we see today, with hundreds of marchers that march from the white house to congressional cemetery where he was temporarily interred. and then over time, with, again, with advances in technology like the train and with embalming, with abraham lincoln, where there can be these more elaborate, elongated ceremonies before the president was interred. but still, these modest funerals would still be in practice, even into the 19

hundreds. grover cleveland's funeral, from beginning, from when the funeral first started at his home in princeton to when he was placed in the ground, it was barely one hour in princeton, new jersey, so extremely modest. calvin coolidge's was probably the last of the modest funerals, in 1932, where his several hundred guests attended his funeral in northampton, massachusetts. after that, we see where franklin roosevelt died in office in 1945, and there was this major event but it was unplanned because no one expected him to die. and that leads us into john f. kennedy, the next president to die. and just very quickly, after john f. kennedy, who also died unplanned, is when presidents started to do this pre-planning of funerals. and one ring binder that turned into three, that grew overtime. so that's when we see the modern, the modern-day state funeral that

we are so familiar with now, really start to form after kennedy, really herbert hoover's was the first one who had the pre-planning that had gone into it. >> yeah. and as you pointed to, as we both pointed to, the plan element of it, as jean has said, okay, well you don't know when it's going to happen. my gosh, with john f. kennedy, you really, really don't know when it's going to occur. yet a funeral still needs to take place, and needs to take place relatively quickly. so, nicola, if you could talk to us, you've got this fabulous museum here in dallas, the sixth floor museum. but a great deal of it covers jfk's funeral. how were they able to do that? >> well, i think the last thing the presidential couple expected when they made their visit to texas and to dallas was to have the four days in november, and a national

funeral and uniting the world in sorrow. but mrs. kennedy was inspired by lincoln's funeral procession, so with great detail did she plan that, and with enormous grace and support from her team. but the sixth floor museum really chronicles the assassination and addresses those chaotic days leading up to the assassination, the aftermath, and tell the nation and the world more. and why there are still questions today. >> yeah. i remember at the time, i grew up, and i found a book on our shelf at home, and it's called the torch is passed, famous book about the jfk funeral. and i remember leafing through it and seeing these iconic images of the funeral. i thought i'd pull one up -- yeah. tell us about this moment. >> one of the strengths of our museum collection is that we've

been given, donated, so many wonderful images and films and home movies by innocent bystanders. and this photograph was taken by dr. thomas mcconnell, who actually was a doctor at parkland hospital before and after the assassination. but he was, here, documenting this tragic, very sad moment of mrs. kennedy coming out with the children just before little john john raised his hand in salute. so we have a lot of materials that we haven't yet been able to put on display. but this is just one example where people have wanted to express their powerful memories, not necessarily thinking that their stories are important, but it has so much rich texture and dimension to the stories that we're able to do three programming. >> nicola, tell me how -- i'll use the word tourist site, you know -- and whether we're dealing with ford's theatre, the site of the lincoln assassination, or your own exhibit. tell me, how do

museums, exhibits, evolve dealing with an assassination, when you're running up against something so extremely delicate and the mourning, how do you -- how does a community come together and decide it's time for us to commemorate this? does it take a long while? does it happen instantly? >> well, it takes a very long time. on the day of the assassination, the grassy knoll, dealey plaza became an instant memorial site. so, we were just -- this city of ours was overwhelmed with mourners try coming to try to and just and what happened. our story has been a very long journey, one of great struggle and endures over the decades. obviously the assassination took place in 1963, the sixth floor museum exhibit didn't open until 1989. and in 1993, the dealey plaza area was designated as a national historic landmark district designation. the

museum opened after at least a decade of struggles, trying to figure out what to do with that building. thank god dallas county saved the building and turned it into dallas county administrative offices through the first and fifth floors. the sixth floor was left vacant. and a wonderful lady who ended up becoming our fairy goodmother, lindalyn adams, was chair of the dallas county historical commission, and she along with civic leaders lobbied for, throughout dallas, to gain support to create an exhibit, to explain to the world the events that led up to the assassination. we had to find a way to address all the people who are flocking to dealey plaza trying to seek their own meaning in this, a tragic piece of history. >> jean, i didn't figure this out until i went to the reagan -- you know it's on the tip of

your tongue -- how do you approach a president to say, listen, it's time to talk about your death. and we've got to get on with this thing, you know. how soon will a president engage in this sophisticated planning effort? and is it a delicate moment? >> again, in so many ways i have the best job in america being george bush's chief of staff. he loved talking about his funeral. [laughter]. first of all, the answer, part of the question, i think this is because of the assassination of kennedy, you have your first funeral meeting in the white house, when you're president. i obviously was not a part of that meeting, but i know that there is -- they make sitting presidents at least do some kind of outline of a funeral, in case he dies in office. so, when i became his chief of staff, i inherited a very small

folder of plans, and by the time we were done, it was a credenza. he, about -- after he turned maybe, 80, i, once a year i said, we need to talk about your funeral. and he's like, oh, good! [laughter] [inaudible] i know that it's really odd. the other thing he did is, every presidential funeral he attended, he'd change his mind about something. [laughter] after president nixon's is when he decided to be buried in his library. he and mrs. bush were going to be buried in kennebunkport, maine. after president reagan's, he decided he didn't want a riderless horse. he thought it was too dramatic. after president ford's, he wanted all the same music. by two favorite phone calls though was brent scowcroft and henry kissinger after president ford's. they informed me that no one who was 80 or older should be honorary pallbearers, because they were exhausted and they were cold

and they were hungry. [laughter] and so i told president bush, you see what we did, his honorable pallbearers were the captains of the uss george h. w. bush. we kicked out all the old people -- [laughter] -- and my other favorite was the 45th president of the united states who called me immediately after john mccain's funeral, jean, everyone at that funeral talked too long except for me. [laughter]. at dad's funeral, no-one talks more than ten minutes, you got it? ten minutes. yes, sir. president bush -- this time to talk about the train.? >> we'll get into that. >> shall we save it for later? okay, we'll save the train for later. he enjoyed talking about the funeral. and one quick story, this is a little bizarre. but even the national media has to get really organized because they also had to hit the ground running and the networks divide up who's going to be the pool camera for the big events. fox news was the pool camera at the grave

site. and they called up because they wanted to advance it. and we ended up closing it to the media. the grief, the burial turned out to be 100 percent private. and for a while it was going to be a poor camera. so i just told president bush and as an fyi, i said you're not going to believe this, but fox news is advancing your grave site at the library today. he says, i have an idea. [laughter] >> he says, i'm going to go, and when i get out there, i'm going to be lying on top of the grave. [laughter] -- with my arms, crossed like i'm dead. i said, no. [laughter]. you're not doing that. >> i've told you this would not be all about mourning. louis, how is it that in america the death of a president drives, ever so briefly -- and i want

to know why so briefly -- these moments of national reconciliation? >> well, a president is one person who unites everyone. we all vote for a president, the the president represents everyone. so presidential funerals, traditionally, when the nation is divided, is something that unites us. and throughout history there have been periods of reconciliation, some briefly, some more permanent, that have come out of it, that have -- where the presidential funeral has been the catalyst. one of the brief examples, can go back to washington's funeral, again, the country was becoming more greatly divided over the formation of political parties. and george washington's funeral briefly brought together the federalists and democratic republicans to mourn together. but ultimately, political forces were at play that were bigger than george washington's death. a couple of successful

examples of how presidential funerals and presidential deaths have really been catalysts for change, one being after james garfield had died, when he was assassinated. and one of the reasons, one of the dividing issues of the time was over civil service reform and the spoils party. out of that assassination, shortly after, the pendleton act is signed and civil service reform begins to take shape. perhaps one of the most potent examples of reconciliation being spawned by a presidential death and funeral is ulysses s grant's. because grant had died 20 years after the civil war. so, a generation after the civil war when the country is still greatly divided, north and south. but grant was really, perhaps, the one individual that was beloved north and

south of the mason-dixon line. and dying a generation after the civil war, the nation was really ready for reconciliation. so he was really the perfect man at almost the perfect time to really bring about some of that reconciliation. during his funeral there's confederate marchers who march with predominantly union but also confederate marchers. there's two former confederate generals who were pallbearers at his funeral. and his tomb, which comes 12 years later in 1897, really becomes a place where all sections of society come to mourn and pay respects at the same location. again, there is north and south of the border. there's white americans, african americans, there's men and women, democrats, republicans. he is really the

one man, and this becomes, perhaps, the one place that can really bring about this reunification. now, we know the history of reunification, that it was largely also -- the reunification of the north and the south was also built upon african americans in the south losing their civil rights, so unfortunately, that's a very important part of the story, too. but grant's funeral was a point that really began to re-form the united states of america that had still been greatly divided in 1885. >> nicola, back to assassinations for a moment. fortunately the exhibit at the reagan library portrays what was, thank god, an attempted assassination, but in jfk's case, an actual assassination and death of the president. how do you go about determining

what artifacts, what objects involving an assassination are appropriate for public display? i'm sure that must be a difficult situation? >> well, i'll get to that in a moment. but i will say that john hinckley, who attempted to assassinate president reagan, actually lived in dallas. so that was another shock for dallas that has still been reeling from the effects of having been the city where the president lost his life. president kennedy's assassination happened at the dawn of television and satellite broadcasting, so the news ricocheted all around the world. and there has been a outpouring of interest all across the world since the assassination in finding out what happened. people come to

dallas trying to seek meaning, and the careful crafting of the original exhibit, john f. kennedy and the memory of a nation, was designed to reach people who had lived through this traumatic time. the idea was not that this was a museum or a memorial. this was an exhibit that would help put into context, historical context, the events that happened and to allow those people, the rememberers as we call them, to find their own solace and reflect. they had no idea that 33 years later that there would be a sixth floor museum at dealey plaza that's an accredited museum by the american alliance of museums, also holding 93 artifacts. originally the exhibit had very few artifacts. it was designed really to be a floating chronological look of the events leading up to president kennedy's trip to texas. what was the climate in dallas at the time, the enormous welcome

reception and the wonderful motorcade, and going through dealey plaza, which was designed as a wpa project, as a gateway into the city, and it still works as such. no one could have imagined what happened. but then the series of investigations afterwards. the responsibility of the original project developers was to address the controversy, but walk a very fine line to be factually based, not to tell you what to believe but to lead the visitor through and to come to their own conclusions at the very end. so over time, we have tried to update the exhibit and put in more artifacts as we have been lucky with the appearance of donations. there is a gentleman here also, who has donated very generous artifact and that's the place setting which would have been the trademark for the president. we have taken our display of artifacts very

carefully. this is not to be overt display of curiosities. its not ripley's believe it or not. most of the evidentiary material in the national archives won't probably won't see the life of -- we won't see it in our lifetime, perhaps on display. the most controversial artifact that we put on display in preparation for the 50th anniversary commemoration was the rifle. it's an exact copy of the one that lee harvey oswald used to assassinate the president. that's carefully displayed, some people don't even notice it. another artifact was the wedding ring that lee harvey oswald left on the dressing room or nightstand the morning of the assassination with all his cash, $187. but we wanted to display these things to provoke questioning what's behind the mindset of this men, that had he not left his ring in money

in the teacup and hadn't argued with his wife the night before, would he have taken those drastic actions that he did that caused such tragedy? >> yeah, jean, we've talked about big binders and planning books and the rest of that. but you also touched on how different staffs of different presidents and it might be presidents of opposite parties at each others necks at times, there seems to have developed through modern times a sense of camaraderie amongst, as it were, amongst presidential staffs reaching out to help each other in these really difficult times. talk about that a little. >> it really is of we have each other's back. and as i mentioned earlier, certainly president reagan's chief of staff, it was really president ford's lawyer who planned his funeral. and they give you a

heads up of the land mines that are ahead. and without those -- they saved my life. how to organize it before and how to stay sane during. and one of the bigger challenges that i face is, is this a good time to talk about what i learned from both president reagan and president ford. for the state funeral in washington, d. c., all of congress is invited, and their spouse. all the governors are invited and their spouses, and the diplomatic corps is invited. they don't all come, and what happens is about 5:00 the night before the funeral you find out how many tickets come back to you, 5:00 the night before. the reagan and the ford people were caught so flat-footed by this for a couple of reasons that they

bussed in boy scouts. i was ready because they warned me to be to be ready. i way overinvited. and for about 12 hours, we had 280 people coming that i did not have a seat for. and the funeral team was very nervous. i was a size six when president bush died. [laughter]. i'm just saying. but sure enough, at 5:00 the night before the funeral, i got 500 seats back. and i was ready. 281 had already been invited. i won't go into detail, but there were other -- -- we filled every seat. there was a b list that immediately got invited. but one of the pieces of advice they gave me was to identify a group of people who you could invite at the last minute to be your seat fillers. someone who meant something to the president. so we chose the cia. he had a very close relationship with the cia. so i asked them if they could use them tickets in the end, and

they were thrilled. i had 75 seats left and i gave them to the cia, and i said, i will need names, because the security was very tight, as you can imagine. and those were my favorite moments that week. the person on the other end of the phone said, yeah, don't worry about that. [laughter]. you know you've got to love those guys [laughter]. but it's just an example of working together. so now, all the chiefs of staff -- excuse me -- chiefs of staffs now, they know, be ready when those seats come back to you. >> yeah, yeah. louis, you mentioned -- and as did you, jean -- the whole concept of funeral trains. trains -- i want to put up a photograph for people to see. yeah. where did the tradition start? >> okay. >> and then stop? and then we'll go to jean. >> yeah. so, the first

president who was -- presidents remains who was placed on a train was william henry harrison. but that wasn't part of his funeral. he was temporarily interned at a congressional cemetery before being brought to ohio. but the first funeral train was 1848, when john quincy adams died. he had died in washington, d. c.. he was also temporarily interned, but for a shorter term, at a congressional cemetery, before being, being brought up north to boston to be buried in quincy. and so the train was almost -- it wasn't really meant to be a funeral train, it was just meant to be a form of transportation to take him north. but meanwhile, people would gather at the tracks and and they would, men would take off their hats when the train passed and it really

became a place of mourning, that funeral track. and for people who didn't have the means to go to the funeral in d. c. or didn't have the wherewithal to go to quincy for the ceremonies, were able to have their brief moment with the former president to pay their respects. abraham lincoln's funeral train in 1865, really, is probably the funeral train that is the most famous funeral train of them all. and again, i mentioned it earlier, there is the intersection of railroad technology but also embalming, which was perfected during the civil war. so mary todd wanted her husband buried

in springfield, which was 1700 miles away from where he was assassinated. so there was a long funeral train that spanned two weeks, stopped in multiple cities, where abraham lincoln's remains were removed from the train and put out for public viewing in a prominent there was hundreds and hundreds o building. but during those 1700 miles there was hundreds and hundreds of displays and bonfires and people that would be singing hymns to pay their respects. so, in the end there was millions and millions of people who either saw one of the many, one of the many processions or were along those railroad tracks. it was a very personal way that people can pay their respects to the president and the coffin would be placed on display with

windows so people can actually see the coffin when they pass by. now, over time, again, with technology changing, the funeral train kind of went out of style, if you will. dwight eisenhower's funeral in 1869 was the last funeral train before president bush's. and one of the reasons, reportedly, was because mamie didn't like to fly. so she preferred the train. but it really, it's very important because it really creates a way for just everyday citizens to be able to pay their respects. >> yeah, sure. jean, i give you [inaudible]. >> by the way, president eisenhower's train, i grew up in a farm in missouri and his train went through my hometown at 10:00 at night and we went, we wouldn't have missed it for the world. but we definitely want. so they all -- can you see the pictures we are seeing? >> i'll pull that up.

>> again? so there you go. so president bush loved trains. he was in love with trains. he decided he wanted the train, his second funeral service was in houston and that was a family and friends who funeral. he was buried at his library about 90 miles away in college station, texas. [inaudible] he and he wanted a train. he loved talking about the strain. you're not going to, please don't judge me, but one day we were talking about the train, he's so excited. he really saw his funeral as a big event. and he said, jean, it'll be great. we'll be exhausted from all those events, and we are going to eat lunch on the train -- [laughter] -- we can visit and rest and relax before the burial. and i don't know what, why, but i said, sir, your family will. i said [laughter]. and i more or less said to him that, you're not. and he said, jean, i will be on the train. i may not eat lunch, but i'll be on the train. [laughter]. anyway, this is a union pacific

train. union pacific was amazing. they had this engine specially made. they have now donated it to his library in college station. it is under a tarp. it will be unveiled on president bush's 100th birthday, june 12th, 2024. you're all invited. this is an amazing -- it was an amazing train. this was one of the more touching moments. we are coming -- the track was packed, just like all the historic trains. but there was a group of cowboys waiting on their horses. and as the train went by, they tipped their cowboy hats. what i didn't know until later, there was about 20 cowboys, but the engineer decided to toot the horn to greet them. and most of the horses ran off. [laughter]. these were the only five left. but we all cried. it was really special. there had been 20 of them. i don't know what we had

would have done. but it was, it was a really special part of his funeral. >> yeah. great story. i've got, oh, 100 more questions. but i bet a few of you in the audience do as well. we are bringing microphones upfront, and i promise, if you're too afraid to ask a question, i'm not. and i've got a lot more, but so, if you would, we've got 20 minutes for questions, and please feel free to come forward. >> i don't have a question, but i wanted to give you an eyewitness account of being in the capitol when they brought the casket in. my father was a united states senator from the state of wyoming. on the day of the capitol event he put the

family in the car and let me see if i can get you into capitol. so we drove downtown and, we couldn't get anywhere, it was total gridlock, he leaned out the window, and said to a policeman, i'm senator mcgee. i need to be in the capitol. and immediately he got us a police escort who took us over to constitution avenue, the site that jackie kennedy would be on, just a few minutes later. so we drove by all the faces that she would see. we were taken up behind the capitol where all the dark cars were parked. my dad drove a

blue and white chrysler, with big fins on the tail. and our car was parked right in there, appeared in all the pictures as this one light car. we were taken up the steps into the capitol, put right behind a rope line where the casket was. and that's right where mrs. kennedy, and i think only caroline, came up to the casket, it was just that far away from me. and it was the first time i had ever experienced death. and i finally couldn't -- i couldn't, i was trying to hold back tears, i didn't want to cry in front of my father. i started to cry. right as i was wiping a tear away a reporter snapped my picture. i had a

copy of the picture but my parents never told me that it had appeared in different places around the country. so it's become a big treasure of mine. then my father told me that, however many days later, that they put the senate on a bus, all the senators, and drove them out to arlington. he was there, and when he turned around, i have never seen this reported, president nixon was standing by himself under a tree, behind all those people. so, anyway, i just wanted to relay that story because it was very personal and i don't know if i'm the only one in the room that was there but i was. >> can i ask how old you were at the time? >> i was probably about 16. 11th grade. >> i want you thank you so much for sharing that story. this is still very much living memory. and it's important to record all of these memories. we would be delighted to do an oral history with you. we have over 2000 growing oral histories.

this new material adds so much dimension and texture to our storytelling. and we do wonderful public programs, they are all on youtube. so that's a shameless promotion for looking at our youtube channel. one of a program of people like you sharing their memories. >> nicola, i know how important those oral histories are to your museum. i really do hope you will get together with her. sir? >> yes, good morning. my name is tracey messer, with the calvin coolidge presidential foundation. thank you all for being here this morning. on three occasions mr. coolidge wore a black armband as a symbol of mourning. on the death of his predecessor, warren g. harding, on the death of his 16 year old son, calvin junior, and on the death of his father, colonel coolidge. i wonder if any of you can speak to the tradition of wearing a black armband as a sign of mourning? when did it start,

and when did it seem to go out of fashion? >> i know that i should be able to comment on this, but unfortunately i do not know the history of that. it is not really in style now, you don't see it now. unfortunately, that is a really good question i don't have the answer. >> sir? >> yes, thank you, sir. nicola, i had the privilege of marching in president kennedy's inaugural parade. and, that was my plebe year and my -- at the naval academy. and my first class year i had the privilege of leading the honor company that marched in his funeral procession. and the marine band,

the u.s. naval -- national geographic magazine took a picture at the lincoln memorial. it was the marine band, west point, the naval academy, the air force academy, and finally the coast guard academy honor companies. and that's a memory that i will take to my grave. i was the class of 1964 and of course, this was january, i mean september 25, 1963. and i can remember the people on the streets and in the trees to get a better view of the funeral

procession being in tears. and my question for you is -- we all remember john john's salute in front of the catholic church on rhode island avenue. do you know any background on that salute? >> i think he might have been prompted to salute, i think that is what the historical record is. i cannot verify that. >> yes, i think that is the case, where jackie had prompted him to salute his father. it was his birthday, actually, too. it happened to be john john's third birthday. >> i also do want to thank you again for sharing your memories. this is just an example. the sixth floor exhibit was created in 1989, after a decade of a lot of controversy and still controversy after it opened.

we're not afraid of dealing with controversy, we walk a very fine line, but what really adds power and meaning to our storytelling is the stories that you shared. it's so important to collect them now. as we reach out to younger generations to understand why this is such a significant event of the 20th century and why it is still controversial, and president kennedy's legacy still inspires us to become engaged citizens. back to the conversation that we've had over the last couple of days. civic engagement, civic leadership, educating our youth. these are all galvanizing points that i hope we take through to the 250th anniversary of this country. >> you know we corresponded prior to this event. one of the topics that you wrote about was, i think these kind of moments that we are seeing here where these exhibits, museums, they really provide an opportunity for closure. i sense that that

is the case for so many who have participated in these events. >> our exhibit was designed to help provide closure for the rememberers. but as there has been a generational shift, obviously, and more diverse audience, more inclusive, so many more people wore affected by the assassination. one of the most difficult challenges we have here in dallas is getting schoolchildren from north texas to come because we're not in the teaks. there are multiple facets that come to learn, we will be expanding the museum and adding -- making it more relevant today. i think all of us are talking about relevancy. how do we empower youth to be curious about the past and find meaning in the present. and find meaning in shaping the future.

>> nicola, i have a question i have a friend who is a historian at independence hall in philadelphia. he tells me that they get so many phone calls. so-and-so found this in the attic, a copy of the declaration of independence. so-and-so has this or so and so has all that. as far as cold, hard, not so much evidence but maybe new photographs of dealey plaza that day? new people that come forward? and how many of them went forward to the fbi and were under investigation. do you have people come out with photographs from that day of dealey plaza, somewhere else, that you are still getting now? >> believe it or not, yes we do! i am looking at my staff over here the collection in education. surprisingly we do still receive wonderful things that have never been seen before. a lot of people, unfortunately, though, there's a huge private collection, collecting of kennedy

memorabilia. so some of the things come up for auction a lot that belong in a museum but are not in a museum, they're in private hands. we want our artifacts to help guide the interpretation of this very complicated story. it's so multidimensional. but as i said, there are 90,000 things that we have in the collection that are original, most of which have never been on display. so, our films, our home movies, photographs, people don't think that their materials are very consequential. i don't think they are going to be as significant, necessarily, as the zapruder film, but anything to help people understand their piece in a moment that they were there as eyewitnesses is important to us. >> and i see you came in in 2005, and being so immersed in what you do every day, do you personally believe that there are other films out there that may show what happened, somebody else was rolling, or do you think only abraham

zapruder was the only person rolling? >> first, i don't have any personal opinions. [laughter]. >> good answer. >> it's possible, but unlikely. i think that something will surface, but after all of these ears, you know, every as every year goes by, and something hasn't surfaced that's going to, sort of, help us solve the mystery, i think the warren commission, because we worked very hard over the years, because our storytelling was deemed so controversial and polarizing to confront conspiracy a little bit more directly, and especially with the warren commission and staffers. everybody thought we were going to be some sort of tawdry, exploitive exhibit. and we've worked very hard to stay as far removed from that as possible. >> thank you very much. >> nicola, i have read that as at least as of 2018, still over 60% of americans believe there

is a broader conspiracy at play than lee harvey oswald. just an interesting stat. >> well, it's a terribly complicated story and, you know, during the mourning period, the shock of jack ruby shooting lee harvey oswald, the assassin of the president on live television, it was just one crisis after the other. and i don't think how young people understand that chaos and how we came through it. >> yeah. sir? >> louis, you mentioned that prior to hoover, most of these processions were unplanned. so i was wondering if you could shed some light on how administrations after the 25th amendment would balance the expectation of showing morning mourning for presidents who died in office, with also the obligation to continue to provide governance to the american people? >> i mean, they manage to do

both. there was always the transition of power. i mean, after lincoln, edward stanton probably had more power than president johnson for a while. but the funerals were paramount. they were a way -- there was this surge, especially in the case of presidential assassinations like garfield and lincoln, there was just this mass public urge you to say farewell. and to see, to see the president one last time, where they really managed to do both. no, the president wasn't -- the new president wasn't really largely involved in it. he was going about the business of governing. notably, harry truman was kind of thrown into the government after fdr's death, and he really had a crash course of what was going on with the government while on the funeral train, partially

while on the funeral train. so they managed to uphold the traditions and the expectations of the public for the public funerals, but the work of government went on. lbj did the same thing -- very quickly took over command soft power, even on air force one, while they are still at love field. so, yeah, there's always been that balance of retaining these secession of power to make sure that that wasn't disturbed while also giving attention to the public mourning. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> yes, ma'am? >> thank you. hello, my name is colin reckon bakr, and i live here in dallas and. this is more of a story and a story that i have. and then gwndylen adams, this was towards the end of the 80s, and she came to my office. i worked for the dallas convention business bureau, which is now visit dallas, and she came, and i was head of the

convention services department. and we had a great privilege, she was taking us there to the sixth floor before anything was done. and this was exactly how it looked when lee harvey oswald shot president kennedy. so we brought our whole department there which was about seven of us and they said to enter back from the back of the six for, to come up the back steps and come there. and they would beat us there. so we get to the back steps we, come up to this is 64, we stand, it is seven of us standing there and we are ready to open the door. trust me, nothing's been touched. it's still exactly the same way it was. we get to the court and go, you go first, know you go first, know you go first. [laughter] none of us wanted to go in, because this is, you know, this is part of history, this is. there is actually, because i was ahead of the department, i went in, and everything was it -- the boxes were standing there, the same way when he stood at the window and looked out the window and shot him. we and it's still was. and it was one of my the best experience of my life to see exactly a place in time, a place in history, and that walk where the boxes were

and where he shot and where he ran out the back. so if you didn't get the experience to go to the sixth floor, take the time tomorrow to do that. it's unbelievable, you know, exhibit and then how he ran down the back stores where the bullets were, the shelves, and where he went down that way. and so i just want to say how interesting it was. and a whole purpose, because we got to work the whole year with her and to how to get our, you know, the conventions that would come into the city, how to get them there to see a piece of this history, and to get the children of the schools. so we ran around to the schools and how we told the story and how we had all the conventions to come into our city. so i just want to thank you with. >> thank you very much for showing us. you'll have to do an oral history with us as well. and i have to say the building is the greatest artifact, you mentioned some of the artifacts, also the snipers nest, which is closed off. but we couldn't tell our story in another place. we are very much place based. and i think there is a tremendous power in that sight. but we are very fortunate that the sixth floor

which left pretty much in its original state. and that's thanks to the preservation architects who were involved in the project initially. >> thank you. i think we've had time, probably, for one last question. yes mam. >> hi, thank you. jennifer caps with the benjamin harrison presidential set. so caroline harrison is one of the future first ladies who passed away while serving as first lady. so this conversation has just made me curious. i know more about the presidents. but first ladies, do they also have a plan? is there also [inaudible] do they start that conversation much as the president [inaudible] do you know if they have those, sort of, plans in place as well? >> i could answer. on behalf of barbara bush. she did have a plan. their funeral is so much simpler because it's one service in their in, their home church, typically. she took me with her to betty ford's funeral, mrs. bush did. betty ford actually had two funerals. one in california and one in

michigan. but mrs. bush wanted me to go with her, and we talked about betty ford's funeral all the way home. and it was the first really meeting we had about her funeral. but yeah, she was a very hands on with planning her funeral. the eulogist, the music, and she was like her husband. they thought it was just another event. [laughter]. >> yeah, i might just add to that. mrs. reagan's three ring binder was almost as thick as that for president reagan, a very sophisticated set of events that we had to execute and as jean knows, joanne drake used to make a practice of that. every year for eight or nine years to approach mrs. reagan, just to update the plan, discuss it, see if there were any changes that you'd want to make, not push you have she might've changed her mind over

the years and i think first ladies give it a tremendous amount of attention. i'm going to turn to [inaudible] because she is in charge. [laughter]. >> [inaudible]. >> before i do, it because i think i have six seconds left, i just want to have gene comment on one particular photo that [inaudible] that -- >> was going to become a question. that's it. that's good. i wanted you to talk about sully. >> president bush is -- after mrs. bush died, he was sad. and obviously, and we came up with the idea, his medical aid arranged for him to have a service dog named sully, who became quite famous. this was taken at the funeral home in houston, the day after president bush died and [inaudible] just took sully

with him to check on everything. and he found sully there in front of the casket. can't make it up. and he took a picture, he took it to the office and said, do you think i should say this out there and released to the media? and i said, yes, i do. it will touch the nation's heart. and so i have a silly story. this is how famous sully was. but excuse me [inaudible] i was telling the story. have to members of my funeral team are here, it's so exciting. marilyn baker and lindsay reynolds were both great members of my funeral team. i was telling them. we took sully with us to washington d. c., on air force one. because his next assignment was walter reed houseboat. we had a problem with who was going to take care of sully during the funeral, and i said, well, let's take you him with us. so we've got permission from the air [inaudible] air force one, and i was given the job of walking up air force one for some

reason. and so, i walk him off air force one, and the press person at andrews air force base came running over to me and said, jeanne, the press wants to know -- and for a minute i just assumed she was going to say they would like to interview you. [laughter]. she said, the press wants to know if you could not be between sully and the cameras. [laughter]. because you are blocking sully. [laughter]. it was a humbling moment. [laughter]. but sully has an instagram account. he has 5000 followers. and i am one. [laughter]. i follow a dog. but that and bob dole are possibly the two iconic photos that came out of president bush's funeral. >> jeanne, louis, nicola. on behalf of this audience i'm going to say thank you so much for your time, your expertise.

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