which i believe that what's been demanded of us now more than ever this with the plan particulates we see all the stuff crumbling around us. people realize something is profoundly wrong. i believe in a way that we never seen before nor cases. >> nobody knows my name. i think everybody is gonna know our names on this is over. let me say thank you. and ibram kendi,, ladee hubbard, join us in something before? okay, we have to hand it off to mow. kevin powell, you can get everybody's books at aalb c.com/cbl. doctor kendi, we're gonna see. you and ladee hubbard, keep riding, keep riding, keep right. thank you so much. it was a pleasure. >> thank you all. thank you ibram and ladee. >> thank you. thank you. >> my pleasure. and now to the great mo beasley.

thank you. >> thank you all. oh my gosh, i'm just like, yo cut a bone and the soul of america. just thank you. ♪ >> on about books, we delve into the latest news >> you updates on current nonfiction authors and books, book reviews, and we talk about current, nonfiction books featured on c-span's book tv. ♪ >> welcome to the about books program and podcast. >> and welcome to the about books program and podcast. well, the case involving the merger of two large publishers penguin random house and simon & schuster, will be our primary focus in this episode.

but first, here's some other publishing news. in the wake of the stabbing author salman rushdie in new york earlier this month, that international publishers association have released a statement condemning the attack. quote, that attack on salman rushdie's tragic, but it will serve to redouble our commitment to fighting for the rights of authors, to speak out, and of publishers to disseminate their words. without these freedoms, publishers and writers are effectively muzzled. well, when it comes to the business of publishing, book sales have been falling this year compared to the last. in july book sales were down 6%, year to date, according to the new site publishing perspectives. that comes after being down 7% year over year, in june, and down 4% in may. well some of the best selling nonfiction books this year, according to the new york times

weekly list, include the 16 19 project by nikole hannah-jones. beaters right-handed, power american elites get rich. and former attorney general bill barr's one thing after another appeared on the new york times bestselling list as well. and fox news host, beat texas new book, battle for the american mind. it's about education and it, too, is on the new york times bestseller list. joining us now on about books is hillel italie. he is with the associated press, and he's been covering books and publishing as a reporter for about 30 years. mr. italie, there is a court case going on here in washington, d.c., involving two publishers. can you give us specifics? >> sure. this actually begins late in 2021 the penguin random house which is the largest book

publisher in the u.s., and most people would say in the world, announced it was purchasing simon & schuster new, which is ranked around fourth in the u.s.. and they would form what would be by far the biggest publishing house in this country, and probably, ever in the world. right from the start, there were expressions of concern because of the sides of this new company. in 2021, the justice department announced that they are going to try and block the merger. the trial began a couple of weeks ago in washington, in federal district court in washington. and the thrust of the government case is this -- they are looking at a very specific area of publishing. they are looking at book deals in which the author receives an

advance of $250,000 or more. and what they're contending is that by merging these two publishers, you're gonna really kind of narrow the market in bids for books like this, which means that publishers will start being glance, which will mean fewer books, and in general, fewer books being bad for the public in general. so that has been the argument that's been going on now for a couple of weeks in court. what effect would this merger have, specifically on this market for books that cost jordan 50,000 or more. >> so, it seems very specific what they're looking at. you mentioned that penguin random house it's the largest, simon & schuster are about the fourth largest. who are some of the other major publishers, and where do they fall on this? >> right now, and publishing world, what we call, generally called in the industry, the big

five. which is penguin random house, simon & schuster, --, mcmillan and harper collins. and so, what you have is those five publishers, when you get into books that are, that advances what we're talking about, a pretty substantial percentage of books of that kind are published by these five. and so, what the government is saying, now it's only gonna be before. and it's inevitable when you only have four publishers that means the market is going to change. there is gonna be fewer bidders, inevitably, less money, and that means, harder for authors to be able to write their books. >> who has been testifying at the trial? some of the well-known authors, and what's their point of view? >> you know, you have andrew

solomon an award winning author. he was one. the most famous by four, and the one everybody has been talking about is stephen king. and he is an interesting case. he has for a long time published four simon & schuster, the simon & schuster imprint sprinter. but as soon as that merger was announced he is a very, he has a very active twitter account. he said i don't think i like this. this is gonna mean, the rich get richer. it's gonna be bad for smaller publishers. so, he actually came to testify on behalf of the government. he did it voluntarily. he made it clear when he was on the stand, he didn't make him come down or everything. he want to testify. that was, by far, i would say

what has been paid most attention. i think the consensus is, he didn't necessarily add anything to the government case. but he in general, he was an interesting for us to have there. he began publishing almost 50 years, and one of the things he was doing was explaining how when he started out, how much more wide open it was, you know, publishers, there were a lot more publishers. they were smaller in those days. and he is seen all of this changed now, over time, including his original publisher, his breakthrough book carrie was published by double deck, a very old venerable publisher, which has been purchased by alfred, and now it's part of the penguin random house. so, what he was basically

saying, you know, i think it's bad when somebody gets that thing. i'm concerned about the smaller publishers. in general, you know, it's hard to say whether or not he advanced the specific case about authors, but these advances. but you know he certainly was somebody people were paying attention to. >> well, mister italie, isn't it a little bit ironic that you mentioned that script or is part of simon & schuster and double day is part of penguin random house. and now, there have been some mergers in this industry. >> there have been a lot. one of the things that is so notable about this case is that urban mergers going on for decades, all have been going, facing very little trouble. it was only a decade ago that penguin and random house merged. they were random house at the time, it was the biggest merger

in publishing world ever, very little trouble. it went right for their merger you know,, the industry has been consolidating for a long time. we are in a different situation now, and only because the biden administration in general has made it clear that they want to take a closer look now at antitrust. so this is sort of a high-profile example of that. this is not, at a vacuum. this comes at a time when the administration's, saying enough, and lifting all the mergers -- we're gonna take a closer look now. >> when you look at mergers overall this is about a two billion dollar merger. this is not a huge merger by some standard, correct? >> no not at all. it is still, though, book publishing holds a special place in the culture, if not

measured by numbers, you just measured in general, in terms of books, or invaluable parts of our country, of our democracy. and one of the things the justice department is saying is, we need to be as open and diverse responsible. i mean, our society depends on as many different kinds of voices out there as possible. so, we are concerned if we see that maybe that's the kind of, you know, made smaller. so, the money, the numbers in themselves are really only naturally the biggest parts of this, it's more about the place in our society that publishing has. >> when you look at other industries, three big car companies and the u.s. left three mobile u.s. companies and the u.s.. but there is still a big five, when it comes to publishing. >> yeah, i mean all of it it's relative. and it's tradition, overtime.

you know, i think at this point, big choose where they can, and it's quite possible, yeah, penguin random house and simon & schuster have just decided not to do this. the government might be looking at mergers elsewhere. it just happened to be -- it was such by far, you know, the biggest merger in this industry's history, and coming out of a moment when the government is saying, okay, enough of just letting mergers go through. let us really start taking a closer look. so, a lot of it has to do with the nature of this particular merger. and the time of that was announced. >> hillel italie, the penguin random house lawyer, prior to the start of the trial said this, quote penguin random house's acquisition of simon & schuster will strengthen the already vigorous competition

among publishers to find and sell the books readers most want to read. how are they backing up that in court? >> it's very interesting. what you have, you have this in any number of cases. you have each side looking at the industry, and especially looking at this high level of advances. and each of them looking at it from their own way. the government is saying, once those five big publishers, and now, you're gonna have for. they are the ones who really dominate this particular part of the market. and isn't it inevitable, it's going to shrink? what the publishers are saying, and what penguin random house is saying, hey, stop seeing the big five. there are other publishers out there. it's elastic, publishers for harry potter books. there's chronicle books, there is a new publishing house

called after house. they're saying, look, you're ignoring all of these other places and there. so, sometimes, it's just a matter of, you know, how you are looking at the giving market. so what they're saying, we're not the only ones there. the big five is not the whole prediction. there are a lot of others. they will also say, look, we will just be big better companies. the top in terms of being able to streamline various distribution and warehousing, becoming more efficient. and that we will be a better company, and better able to put books out, and that's good for everyone. >> what is simon & schuster's attitude, and what have they said about this nurture? >> well, i mean, they came out, now, simon & schuster, it's a complicated situation. simon & schuster, at the time the sale happened, they were

owned by viacom. now, it's a paramount global. simon and schuster, the rules of simon & schuster being put up for sale, for a few years now, there is a comment who just -- publishing as part of our long term strategy. >> so i think that simon & schuster, there is not with the understanding that, okay, someone has got a bias. and i think at least what they're sort of saying is, look, if something is gonna bias, why not being random house, it's another book publisher that understands what we do? they will respect our culture. one of the things that penguin random house signed, ad hominem, these have all been around a long time. these are the course of the publishing industry. they're saying, hey, we all

respect that. we've published all these great writers. we're gonna continue that tradition. one of the things that is put out is the concern, suppose this merger is blocked, they're still the general consensus that paramount is still one cell simon and schuster. and so, some have kind raised the concern, what if they bought out, venture capital, it really doesn't care about -- all venture capitalism wants to do is make a bunch of costs, and sell it off again and make a nice profit. but really to cement publishers, simon & schuster in the meantime. i think there is a general understanding one way or another simon and schuster is expected to be sold. and why not penguin random house another publisher host sort of appreciates the history simon and schuster has. >> what is the case being heard?

and who's hearing it? >> well, it is in washington. a federal district court first, judges florence, who is been i believe, nominated for the appeals court. ry active in the a very highly regarded judge. she has been very active in the case. she does not hesitate to ask questions. i think there is a general feeling that her questions have been a little bit tougher on penguin random house. she has certainly looked very closely, and has appeared to be somewhat skeptical of the idea that doing this merger is not going to change the market. however, as i am sure you know, you can never make any conclusions. it's been known that the judge doesn't appear to be taking one side during the hearing, and then ruling other way.

but at least, everyone has been following this. and it's been noting since she certainly seems to be taking a tougher line on questioning. >> hillel italie harper collins have they weighed in with an opinion on this murder? >> now, they have. it's an interesting case. hotshot and harper collins both posted, and yet, you have a bit of an irony here, because harper collins was one of the better sport. they made it clear they would appoint simon & schuster. hush it did not make an actual bit, but their ceo actually said, i kind of wish they did. and yeah, we'd also like to have simon and schuster. so it's an instinct situation what they're saying is that they're not necessarily against the big five, being shrink to

the big four. but they're saying, look penguin random house, was already number one. that's a special case. so in our case, it's a little different. >> just to review, before we closed down our conversation on this, this merger is specifically being challenged by advances, big advances to big name authors, correct? right -- >> right, this is the perspective that you're taking. my understanding is like it's sort of a waiver kind of issue, how are being compensated for your work. they are focusing on this particular part of the market. in fact, one of the defenses at random house, saying, look, you're just focusing on a small number of things here. you're not considering the vast number of books that don't fall into these categories. and the response from the government is saying yeah, this is really where a lot of, you know, retention goes to. it's such an important part of the market, and it's been,

clearly gonna change that. so that's how we really feel, we have to step in here. >> hillel italie, you have been covering the publishing world and book publishers for nearly 30 years. what's the state in the industry today? >> well, one of the things that's happened in the past couple of years is one of the pandemic began, there was an initial feeling of oh god we are really in trouble. all stores have closed down, and there was a feeling like, okay, we are in for this, and we're anticipating layoffs in such. and more people started buying books, the opposite. maybe people were just at home, people were not going to concerts, movies. they had more time to read. 2021 was the best year ever in book publishing. it was a tremendous year. 2022, not quite as strong as 2021, but totally speaking, a strong here, one thing, this

comes this did not come at a time when, you know book publishers were sort of desperate to save themselves or anything like that. this comes at a good time for the publishing industry to sell its books. >> how shocking to you was the stabbing of salman rushdie? >> you know -- it's something that was always i'm sure somewhere in the back of his mind always on the back of any number of people's minds. i came to a lot of events where he's right, or i've just been to events where he attended or chatted with him. in the back of my mind, in those events, i always wondered, oh god, one of those something happens. so, -- ,. . it has been so long since he had been in, and maybe there

was this feeling like, okay, the point of true danger is not there anymore. and so, maybe, that sense,, it's shocking. and that, maybe there was this feeling, the turned out to be an illusion, but okay, everyone moved on from that. one of the notable things is the alleged assailant, obviously, we have to see alleged at this point. there is no formal trial or anything yet. he was young. he was 24. he wasn't born when this book was published, or when all of the attention was given to it. so, one of the things i felt, the idea of this book is lingered long after anybody really had been talking about it. you know, i don't think it's a book that's necessarily sold a lot of copies in recent years.

yet, obviously, among certain people, it's still there, some kind of a symbol, something that hangs on. so that's something that was striking to me, that you didn't even have to be born when that book came out, to clearly feel like, okay, you know, i really have an issue here with this author. survive albeit injured>> and at this pod august when we're taping this it looks like he'll survive albeit injured, deadly? >> yeah, there's about this -- i mean he's certainly sustained serious injury on, stabbed in the stomach. one of his eyes appears to have been badly damaged. you know, indications that is no longer in critical condition. he had been on events later when he was taken off of it. and so, at this point, i think we just wait and hope that we

hear from him at some point, gets out some kind of statement. one of the things that's notable about him, he has been very unafraid to speak out over the years. he's not a reclusive author. a very public author, someone who, you know, was forced into hiding initially. and that's really not, again, he's not one of those rioters who want to be left alone. he likes to be out there. he likes to be engaged with people. and so, the hope is, that is something he will still do. we have to see. it's really only been a week. and as our taping right now. >> well, hillel italie, let's close back on the trial. what is expected in the next couple of weeks? how long do you expect the penguin random house simon & schuster merger trial to last. it's not supposed to last much

longer perhaps this week, going into next week, not much longer. and then, later this fall, a church panel is expected to roll on it. and from there, we'll see. penguin random house, if it goes against them, penguin random house could appeal it. and then, again, there is no way of knowing what would happen if they did that, you know, what the process would be from there. so, not much longer of a trial is expected. and again, at some point this fall, we will get a decision on that. hillel italie, covers books and publishing for the associated press. >> we really appreciate your time on about books. >> thank you. >> each tuesday, dozens of books are published and released. here's some recent one. senator tim scott's new memoir is entitled america a redemption story. it's about the south carolina republicans upbringing,

political career. and the core messages about what the u.s. means to him. he is one of only 11 african americans to have ever served in the u.s. senate. former donald trump campaign chairman, paul manafort, who was pardoned by the former president in 2020, is out with his new book, political prisoner: persecuted, prosecuted, but not silenced. the party of lloyd green called mr. manafort's book, primarily an exercise and a score settling, pointing an accusatory finger at federal prosecutors, and lashing out at enemies. another new book, in raising lazarus, hope, justice, and the future of americas overdose crisis. author beth macy follows her award-winning book dope sick with another account of americas opioid crisis. a curtis review dubbed her newest work, quote, a profoundly disconcerting book that will inspire reform to aid

the dope sick and punish their suppliers. ha rights is the author of the walking dead, how societies woke virus destroys our culture. and author in the washington times describes it quote, a book targeting to left-leaning influence in america. and in the new yorker recently reviewed a new book called the last resort, which looks at each site's development. they say it's a chronicle of corrosive tourism, which points out of the ecological dangers, due to the popularity of development of the beach. and the national review looked at the state of black america. it's edited by alan, who is ceo of the center for urban renewal and education. the conservative magazine describes the essays in this book as offering a, quote,

empowering message of individual responsibility, inspired by black men and women of astounding ability. >> and finally, when it comes to new books, the wall street journal recently reviewed the study of the federal reserve. the fed unbound is described in paper, as a nuanced volume that will help you understand what the fed is up to. each month, book tv has a program called in-depth. we bring on one author for a deep dive in his or her body of work. recently, talk show host, author, and gubernatorial candidate, larry elder, was our guest. here is how he responded to one call. >> you're quite right. this is the wealthiest country in the world, and there is no reason why we should have this kind of problem. but mostly, people who are homeless, they have other problems, mental problems, they're alcoholics, or they're addicted to drugs. and that's a spiritual problem. i talked to dr. ben carson when

i was running for governor. and he talked about a plan that he had, that had the trump administration had a second term, they already had this ready to go. on federal land, they were gonna have the same regulations and rules that you have another lands, and we're gonna put it on a bill, lower costs of small housing. and he told me that the mayor was on board, the mayor of l.a.. even governor graham newsom was on board. and there was plenty of money to treat people, and they will treat people first. and then, they would be offered opportunities to live on federal property, and in these houses that will be built. ben carson believes that both of the homeless people would take our people on their offer and then would be willingly relocated to these areas where federal property is. we have to do something, though. it's gotten worse and worse. when gavin news and was mayor of san francisco, two term mayor, he promised to end the homeless problem in san francisco before the end of his

term. it's worse than ever. and with lieutenant governor, for eight years, to complain that had nothing to do. i suggested, maybe he might want to fulfill this campaign promise to solve the homeless problem in san francisco. this is only gotten and the larf people who are homeless. we can address this by dealing with their mental illness, alcoholism, and building low-cost housing. >> a reminder that the larry elder in-depth program and all other in-depth programs are available to watch in their entirety online on our website book tv.org. before we close, we want to let you know that book tv will be live at the national book festival on saturday, september 3. it is held here in washington, d.c. at the convention center. book tv has been live every year and this is the first year since the pandemic that it is back in person.

you will hear from authors talking about such topics as race, jim thorpe, clinical conspiracy, the bald eagle, all day long coverage. you can find the schedule on our website. if you happen to be in town, come down and say hello. thank you for joining us on about books. a program and podcast produced by c-span book tv. book tv will continue to bring you publishing news and author programs which you can always watch online at book tv.org and if you want to download this podcast, you can do so at c-span now or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪

>> did evening, everybody. -- good evening, everybody. i am excited to talk about this wonderful book with such a brilliant colleague and scholar. thank you for doing this. >> thank you for this conversation. taking time out of your busy schedule. i really appreciate it. >> i