and find the whole schedule on your program, guide or watch online anytime, at c-span.org slash history. >> glad to welcome back to the program dr. evans, ceo of the american psychological association, joining us to talk about the issues of anxiety and depression. doctor, evans the u.s. preventive services task force out with new guidance on screening for depression and anxiety. first, what is the task force and what do they recommend? >> the task force is put together by the government to look at streaming farai health conditions, and this particular task force looks at the issue of president screening and anxiety screening. it is a good set of recommendations to add the issue of anxiety disorders to what people should be screening or looking for in primary care. >> why?

>> well, first of all, anxiety is pretty common in the prevalence. about 26% of males and 36% of females. it is the most -- anxiety disorders are some of the most common mental health conditions. often unrecognized. and they can lead to a variety of problems. none of the problems of having mental health challenges but also the challenges of exacerbating other health conditions. >> what prompted this task force recommendation, these changes, was all pandemic related? >> the work actually started before the pandemic. it certainly is timely, because one of the things that happened during the pandemic is that symptoms of anxiety and depression increased over the course of the pandemic. in, fact as we look at the data, these numbers were three or four times what they were before the pandemic. we know the people having creased symptoms related to

depression it. as i mentioned, before we know that these conditions are often under recognized, and this is opportunity for us to recognize those issues and get to people much earlier. >> that is a question. do you personally think there is more anxiety and depression in america today than 2030 years ago? or women are talking about is, recognizing, it's >> we've seen significant increases recently, the data look like we were seeing an increase in prior to the pandemic. so it is a combination of talking about it more, but we also know there were greater issues. >> this task works recommendation that most adults to get an anxiety screening, u.s. preventive services task force. the exact wording of it. they first time the task force is recommending screening

adults younger than 65 for anxiety. the task force continues to recommend all adults including those who are pregnant or postpartum or depressive. those issues were talking within this segment of the washington journal, with a professional doctor arthur evans, ceo of the american psychological association, phone lines split regionally in this segment. so they are in the eastern or central time, zones to a 274 8000. if you are in the masters pacific time zones, 2027 8001 is the number. go ahead and. colin where the rubber meets the road here in terms of these screenings? primary care doctors are expected to do this now. are they trained to do depression screenings? how does that work? >> already we know that people in primary care are being screened depression. to there are things that people can do quite easily. and, yeah, primary care

physicians can do that, many primary care physicians are doing screenings for the russian already. >> if i'm fully brings, idea mother 65 years, old what are you asking me in that screening? how long is that process take? what does it look like for somebody who may be going to the doctor in the next couple weeks or months, and that doctor decides to go with those task force recommendations? >> there are a couple different routes. what i recommend is screening for generalizing's army disorder and there are screens that take only a few minutes some of the symptoms that we look for for generalizing's it disorder are irritability, worry, people having anxiety nervousness around different issues. and those things can be done quite effectively and efficiently, and we can get

people connected here much earlier. >> when do you know that somebody has depression or anxiety? how those one fail one of these tests? >> one of the things for this important to know -- >> if aliens the right, and i apologize if it is. not >> it is not. these are screens, first of all. what that means is that we are not diagnosing. they are only designed to help as identify people who are likely to have a problem. and those people should be referred to a mental health professional for further assessment. >> dr. arthur evans, ceo of the psychological association, good to take your phone. calls before we get to in chicago, can you explain the difference between ecology and psychiatry? >> the difference is that psychiatrists go to medical school, they are trained in medicine.

and they do hours and see and specialized psychiatry. psychologists go to school and they learn the science of human behavior and couldn't go circling just gives additional training to provide medical care. >> so either more psychologist or psychiatrist in the united states right now? >> more psychologists. if you are psychiatrists. but we need more of both. >> how many psychologists represents at the av acts? >> our membership is about 130,000. that includes students, -- people who are researchers. people who are clinicians. but in the united states there's probably about 150,000 psychologists. >> phone lines full for. you let's start working to those calls. i did not in chicago. good morning. you are on with dr. evans. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> hello.

i have been trying to get through to you for such a long time, but you hit on something that concerns me today. we have all the psychologist that we have in this country. why haven't they spoken up about donald trump? it is obvious that he has a mental problem. and i would like to know if someday some of the psychologists will get together and let this guy know that he needs to be in the hospital. >> first of, all our ethics requires not to diagnose people without seeing. them so one of the reasons why people don't generally do that for public figures is that unless they are under their care, they would not have a clinical opinion about the. >> to grow up in south carolina, good morning. >> i would like to comment on what i call the anxiety special here in the united states.

and especially with young people. i am not going to be offensive, but this is just my take. i think that americans elect fourth, just doesn't know which way is up and down anymore. people are turning on each other. you hit it at all the time. who is promoting that? your politicians, your mainstream media, they sat in the other. what people, it's like tom and -- is die in the united states. let me take the abortion issue. now, one party is there that people are against the federal government mandating abortion. but they don't care about women. that is not true. that's not true. the people that are doing abortion on demand really and

truly believe that -- this is just one example. that really in truly believe that the child in the womb is a living human being with rights. and if you have an abortion for just any reason, you are killing a human being. and these people are what we call. evil that's just one example. climate. change real quick. people say what the climate is about. no, no, republicans know the climate is changing. there is a friend of mine with a giant -- in his front yards. it is sitting above the ground in south carolina. a glacier move to their thousands of years ago. but the climate is changing. cheap affordable energy is freedom for the common man and woman. it allows you to go and do the things that you need to do. if we get away the inflation probably has right now, is

absolutely called by the war on fossil fuels. >> let's pick up your point and some of your examples that you give. and some of these intense debates that we have in this country. political debates. what's up. >> one thing that we do know is that instabilities on the rise. we have a survey called the -- in america survey. we look at what of the things which are causing stress in the american population? this issue of instability is high on the list. in the last two election cycles, people reported that they were experiencing a lot of stress from this. in the points to a really important point. armada how this been affected by what happens in our society and how we keep one another. so we can't really separate that from our mental health. our psychological health. and to the collars points, i hope we can get, to as a nation,

a point where we can disagree. but do it in a way that does not cause the kind of banks and difficulty that we are dealing with right now. >> at one point as a psychologist would you say that somebody needs to unplug from the political wars? when should they step back from the very intense debates? what would be a recommendation? what is too much? >> i think we will have to try to yourselves. i think it's turning to the point that we are ruminating about, it is starting to affect our health and our relationships with family members and other folks, we are probably getting to the point where we need to step back and asks ourselves, what is really important? is it this political debate more imports than my relationship with my son or daughter? or other relationship? and if it's, not which for most people it won't be, i think that is something we need to take a step back and think differently about how we are engaging. >> how, about giving the

example which this caller brings, up to engage in the climate change debate and, say this is an issue for generations to come. this is the most important thing. or the abortion debate, that the caller brings. up this is a human life. this is the most important thing for me to be involved in. what do you say to those folks? >> i think people can feel strongly about their position. the issue, is how do we inform one another? we live in a very large community. people have lots of different opinions. and we have to live together. it is important for us to think about how we can have those intense debates. fight for the things that we believe. in but do it in a way that does not detrimental to our overall society. right, now what we are seeing is that is exactly what's happened. texas, >> the, shiner. texas, danya. >> next good. morning thanks for this conversation. anxiety, if you don't have anxiety or not. living it we all have. it i mom had, it she was a

single mom working three jobs. and doctor, john one of the greatest men i ever knew, definitely told her, come home said don't worry about it for five. minutes get up and -- so we have to learn to trust in god. things are going to work out. and just go with the flow. and quit trying to demonize everybody. and just be a good person who follows the golden rule. treat them how you treat them. and a lot of that stress will just go away. but sit down at the end of the day, worry about it for five minutes and get up in the chair. let's get on with life because life is too short to be worrying about all the time. thanks a lot. >> one of the things this caller said that i think is really important, that we all experiencing zaidi, we all experienced depression or bad moods. the issue when we are talking about mental health conditions is that these have lasted a long time, in the case of generalized anxiety disorder. we are talking about over a six month period. and the real important thing is that when it gets to the point

where it is affecting our relationships, affecting our ability to, we're affecting our health, that is the point at which we really need to get help. so the caller makes a good point that anxiety is normal and part of life. but we also know that anxiety can -- to the point where the peace in our ability to carry out our functions and our health overall. >> this task force reports. again recommend screening all adults younger than 65 for anxiety. what about folks over 65? >> tax force says that they did not quite make a recommendation. but there wasn't enough evidence to support doing things for older adults. i think it is a complicated picture. there are a number of things are play here. a lot of the symptoms for anxiety are looking very similar to other kinds of symptoms that you might see an old age. i think the primary issue is that screening should be done

when they are effective at detecting that there might be a problem. and for older adults, it is more complicated. i think they want to see more research around that before they make that recommendation. >> doctor, evans with us. for the next 25 minutes adding to this conversation about the issues of anxiety depression in america today, in the wake of this task force report. with these new recommendations on anxiety. and depression screening. anthony, fayetteville north carolina is next, good morning. >> hey, good morning. -- of the universe. doctor, evidence please i think we have the same house several years ago when we were talking about stress. versus pressure. and you helped me clarify. we kind of had them backward in your definition. one thing that i do is like quotes. here is one that i think is really great, but everyone.

not easily scared, not for long. and that ties back to what is called the -- for fight. whatever we want to call. it but we know that if something is going on that we are not sure of, get out of there. if we can't get out of there, we have to fight to defend ourselves. and i actually believe that this screening should start in an earlier age. because when my children came up, one of the things i put before them were a lot of things to make them question me. so that they could become better children. i would become a better parent. and overtime, they would know how to deal with anxiety. because anxiety is not something we should learn from.

we actually become stronger when we have more anxiety and on life, at an earlier phase. because we then know it is not easily scared, not for long. >> dr. evans. >> well, the college said a number of important things there. you know. in psychology there is a law called the york east austin law. basically what that says is that as our anxiety increases, our performance increases up to a point. and beyond that point of performance starts to decrease and we've actually done research to show that. being able to manage and control our anxiety with those fights and flight is very important but the point they want to keep stressing though is that when our anxiety is long-lasting and starts to get in our way, and those other very specific situations.

looking to make sure, anxiety for example, speaking publicly is something that can cause people lot of anxiety. and people learn strategies and techniques to deal with those kinds of situations. and it is important to do that. i want to distinguish from that kind of anxiety, situational, anxiety from the kind of long-lasting anxiety that really gets in the way of a lives and health. >> anxiety, depression, what separates the two windows one start contributing to the other? >> anxiety and depression are lots of ways different sides of the same coin. there are a lot of these symptoms of anxiety are similar to the sentence for depression. in both cases, it is really important, one, to recognize where we are experiencing that.

that is where the task force recommendations aren't so. fourth because there are no other set of lies on our issue. but it is also important to make sure that once we get identified with potentially having those problems, and get a more throat mental health professional to figure out what the best course of treatment is, the reason that that is important is that if you take depression for example, depression could be caused by any number of things. it could be there was more biological. it could also be situational. someone who gets experienced a loss in reaction to that loss might become depression. or we know that people who have -- conditions often will have depression. if you are only looking at the symptoms, and not understanding what is driving the depression, you may mistreat someone or not

get to the real issue. if someone is having. depression. because they have a condition say a cocaine addition, and you treat the symptoms but you do not pay attention to the fact that this person has a cocaine addiction, you are really not going to get to that problem. so it is really important to get a thorough assessment, which i do you think depression could treat an underlying condition. >> task force recommendations prompted -- there are recommendations. how do we go from we recommend this for prime record actors to you have to include this in your yearly physical? what is the process there? >> the recommendations are recommendations that guidelines the government does not mandate that. often what will happen is these task force have a

recommendation and there is a lot of pressure put on public pairs in private pairs actually include that. in the service to pay for. i think what will happen over time is that more and more this will be a common practice. and i really hope that the spring is important for a clinical standpoint. but it will help identify individuals. but i am really happy about is it will help to address some of the issues that we had a mental health field. for example, we know that people get to treatment too much later in the process. then they showed. often from the onset to the time that people get treatment, it can be a year sometimes decades before people get the help they need. this helped move us up stream, something much earlier. it also helps us deal with the issues of stigma and normalizing mental health. for two, long mental health has

been separate from physical health. in our field, sometimes we talk about getting a checkup from the neck up. when you go for your physical exam it is below that now, pretty much. but the issues that are also part of our health, our mental health, are often ignored. this starts to normalize and say to people, your mental health is as important as your physical health. one other issue that i think is really important is there has been a move over the last several years to integrate mental health into primary care, which is really important. many people will not go to a special mental health provider. what we know from a the research around integrated care, embedding those services in primary care settings, there's one that we get to people much earlier. secondly we quote that gap between people that are having problems, and people that are

getting the treatment that they need. and it reduces disparity that we see in different populations. >> are you worried about the ability of doctors that went to medical school in the 19 80s and 90s and early 2000s, the 2010s, that they have the ability to do this and to do it well? these screenings to have this much of a ability to do that shot from the neck up? this ability toi think it is ry understanding where the screen. is a screen does not give you a diagnosis. a screening, says this person is likely to have a problem. what this says and i think physicians are more than confident and well trained to do this, but what it does mean is that it is importance there for four primary care providers to then have relationships with people who are in it, however more excuse around mental health issues. psychiatrist, psychologist, psychiatric social workers. to the point i was making earlier about integrated health

care, what happens historically is that when you integrate mental health providers into those settings, it is very difficult to get them out. because primary care providers really like them, being, they're being able to go down to the hall and consult with someone or how someone deal with these other issues that they know they're going to have to deal with, because they can then focus on physical health issues. >> back to the calls as we come up on 90 am eastern. this is climate in detroit. good morning. >>, a yes. i have a science degree in psychology. and i am 86. i'm 86 years old. and i have a tsn for, you list everything about -- but you leave out two things that affect the black community. and that is, slavery and prejudice and discrimination. why do we not address those

issues? because -- that i think all blacks have. because of the prejudice and discrimination and the 46 years of slavery in this country. and in the other hundred and 50 some of our years of discrimination. why is that never addressed in the black community? >> i think you are making a good, point and i want to take it from two different standpoints. from a community standpoint, i think it is important to understand those issues, how the impact on a community. the historical impact of those issues. and i think there are people in communities that have started to do that, and in terms of the psychological impact of that, we know that discrimination, prejudice, does affect communities. whether you are talking about african americans, next individuals or asian americans.

any of these groups, you know that when people are discriminated against it affects their mental health. the issue that you are raising our inextricable. you can't have those kinds of societal issues and not have an impact on our health and our physical health. to your point is well taken. >> in brooklyn, anita, you are next. >> chalamet they come, i appreciate dr. evan so much. and many of the scholars, i can't think of one caller that i did not appreciate. the man from texas mentioned the lord god. you, know jesus says be not anxious. but he lived in a different world than we live in. this separation between the mental and the physical, the greeks, said has a sound mine in a sound by the.

that is reasonable. why don't we remember that? but the thing is in this country we live and in particular, we have to look at the diet of people. and they're vitamin levels. for instance, man anymore be complex. they cannot get enough of the peak of. blacks and effects the mentally. , physically too, probably. and if they smoke something like marijuana, that pulls up burns up your be complex even more, and that is something you need to cope with stress. anxiety, i mean, i never would be treated an anxious. one time a doctor in them urgency room try to put that on me and i was there for perfectly legitimate reasons, i was in long island, there have been a meningitis outbreak i had to learn how to teach children to wash their hands. and i was concerned about myself. and so i wanted to be tested.

and they tried to give me a hard time, but the doctor saw me in the er did give me this test, and unfortunately i did not have any of the symptoms. doctor evans is right. treating symptoms. instead of the cause. look at the dais of the people in america? >> let's let dr. -- jumping on. that >> sure, thank you for the point you are making about the integration between our physical health and mental health. you are exactly right. one of the things that we recommend to people when we talk about health care and maintaining our psychological health is that people in our society look at diets that they look at, but all those things we know affects people mental health. one of the things that i think is important around this is understanding that it is not inevitable that we will developmental health conditions. there are a lot of things that we can do ourselves, things

that we can do as parents and teachers as employers, which can help protect peoples mental health and support people psychologically. it is important to use these opportunities to educate folks about these things. >> what would you say to tony, who says a psychologist are probably harmed us by shifting the focus from coping to diagnosis? they sell us on disease when they could be promoting ways for us to thrive. >> well, you know, i don't think that talking about these issues actually hurts us. in, fact it helps us. i think the bigger problem that we have in the country is that people have these conditions and are not getting the help they need. if you listen to many mental health professionals, psychologist psychiatrist and psychiatric social workers, a lot of what we talk about,

especially today, it's for things that people can do to protect their mental health. like the kinds of things that was talking about earlier. i don't think talking about these issues leads to people having problems. and in fact not talking about these issues has been a much bigger problem in the country. >> ten minutes left with dr. evans this morning. ceo of the american psychological association, apa dot. or if you want to check them. out tony's in tennessee. good morning, you are next. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> my question is this, when anxiety and depression evolves into full-blown mental illness, would you support the federal government providing the funds to rebel long term mental institutions? which in turn could help to eliminate homelessness and crime? >> another great question.

one of the things that we have learned over the decades is that we can treat people in community settings. and in, fact starting with john kennedy, president john kennedy, we started the process of deinstitutionalization. the reason that we have homelessness is because people do not have homes. what we know is that when we treat people who have mental illnesses, and they still do not have homes, they are still homeless. so the issue they are is how do we make sure that we understand that for many people who are very serious mental illnesses, we need a comprehensive approach. which is not only treatment, but making sure that people have adequate housing in the case of people who are homeless or have mental illness. but you are point is a really good one. we really ought to be stepping back, particularly now. looking at how do we shift public policy given the increase that we have seen in mental health conditions?

what i believe and what we are talking about at the american psychological association's really taking a whole population approach to this issue. that simply means that we cannot wait until people get to the point that they are in crisis. we have to start looking at and helping people much earlier in the process. that is why these recommendations are so important, because they normalize and they say, to all of us we ought to be concerned about our mental health. it provides us an opportunity to educate people about what they can do about their mental health. let me just give you an example. if we think about the issue of mental health as either, i have a problem or i don't, we really miss the point. the reality is that our mental health is on a continuum. and there are people who are going really well for a mental health standpoint, and there are people who are very serious challenges. our focus is bent on that end of the continuum only focusing

on people after the fact. if we were to spend much more of our time looking identifying people earlier in the process, maybe they are not at that point where they have the diagnosis, but clearly they are starting to show the size and the symptoms, which would be entering their. we're gonna be much more effective. one were more effective at. treating it's less costly and we prevent people from having significant long term impacts. so the shift that we believe we need to make is moving what we call upstream. up to continue. on getting people there earlier. those recommendations help us do that. but we need to do much more in that area. and if we can do that it will begin to reduce the demands, and create a more effective an efficient way of dealing with those issues. >> what was on the or for double kerouac when it came to mental health issues? and if there were another major

overhaul of the health care system, what with the american psychological association like to see in that next one? >> one of the things that talked about parroting was making sure that we funded mental health services in the same way that we find the physical health services. that was enormously important in the historically underfunded mental health services. and we need more resources. what i would say, a couple of things. one is that we need more flexibility in the funding of mental health services. if you talk to mental health commissioner, for example, most of their funding is categorical. it is for certain kinds of services. but as the caller talked about earlier, about homelessness and mental health, people who have mental health conditions, particularly serious mental health conditions need a whole variety of things that are not often covered and services that mental health assistance has. so we need to have more

flexibility, and we need to pay for services for people before they have a diagnosis. it is a real problem, if you thought during the pandemic one of the things that we saw was a number of people had a tremendous amount of stress. . if you looked at our frontline health care workers, they were under a tremendous amount of stress. many of them may not have had a diagnosis. but they certainly could have benefited from intervention help and support. so i think one of the things that we can do and we would like to see is for those services to be covered. and one other thing, we would have to increase the workforce around mental health. we do not have enough psychologist psychiatrist and social workers, and until we can get more practitioners in addition to some of these other things, it is going to be very difficult for us to get our hands around this. >> back to the phone, this is johnson illinois.

good morning. >> good morning, thank you so much. i just really appreciate that you are speaking about this this morning. and i think it is very important that everyone here is this. i especially agree with getting help earlier, and a lot of people out there and not getting the help they need. so any task force situation that can go forward would be wonderful. i think there is just way too much time passing before people can get the help they need. so any money that can go into this would be great. i personally will just give you quickly my experience. when i do need help recently, it took me a long time to get through to somebody. i started with my primary care provider. and they had to put in a referral. and it went from them not calling me back to me

initiating calling them. so, anyway through a series of phone call into time, i finally got to someone and i have been seeing a psychologist who has been extremely helpful. i know there are people out there who are overwhelmed, and perhaps don't have the initiative to try to seek that help. any screenings that can be done earlier would be great. i will take your response off the air. so that you can maybe get to another caller. but thank you so much for getting this information out to people. thank you. >> thank, you and i'm glad to see you are getting the help that you need in that it is helpful. the point that you are making about people sometimes not having the wherewithal to get the help that they need, because of the conditions that they are seeking help for, is a really good one.

one of the other conceptual shift so i think we have to make in the field is to not require people to come to us. that is what we have historically done. you've had to go to a mental health provider. one of the things that i did when i was commissioner, that my system did, was to embed mental health professionals in the places that go. so, shifting into thinking about where people live, work, play and warship, and embedding mental health professionals in those settings can be very effective. for example, in the city in which i lived as mental health commissioner, philadelphia, we have mental health professionals every family court. we have mental health professionals at the jail lock-up. police officers are arrested from time to time those people had mental conditions. as officers did not recognize that, they couldn't for those people move them into the mental health system. it didn't people in.

libraries why? because in urban settings, people with mental health conditions often will use public libraries, and libraries don't know what to do. but if you have someone there that knows how to identify and to get those people connected to services, it can be very effective. so, the concept is, rather than only having people go to a mental health professional thinking about the places where people are, and embed mental health professionals in those settings, schools, or other settings, it can be much more effective at getting people to help they need much earlier. >> arthur, evans 12 years as commissioner philadelphia treatment of behavior and health and international disability services. former deputy commissioner of the connecticut department of mental health and addiction services. now, ceo of the american psychological association. a good question from alex from silver spring in maryland, this morning. asking, face based on these

recommendations where can we go for the screenings for anxiety and depression. we already talked about this being something a primary care doctor can do if they follow these instructions. but one of that primary care doctor isn't doing? this is that somewhere that somebody like alex can go to get some of these? >> you can certainly reach out to mental health professionals. hopefully your primary care provider has a relationship with mental health practitioner. and if you have a concern you can certainly reach out to your primary care provider. and ask for a referral. or the other thing is to act as the mental health practitioners that you may have available. what i would recommend is that if you have private insurance, look at the networks, call your insurance company. if your public insurance like medicaid, again most states people have managed medicare. manage medicaid, i should say. so, call up overpays for your

health insurance, and add them, tell you what they're looking for it and they can put you towards a provided that can help you with insurance. >> i know we are a bit overtime, plenty of calls though. anyone else? waukesha, wisconsin, mike, good morning. >> good, morning thank you to c-span. i would like doctor evan's opinion on gun. violence firearms have been available for centuries, but we are seeing school shootings and things in the last 20 years or so that never occurred before. what imports can the mental health field provides? >> the way we look at this issue is a couple of different ways. the first is to understand that especially when we are talking about gun violence, gun violence is not justified by mental health conditions. and in fact we know that people are more likely to a mental health condition who are more likely to be a victim of violence that actually commit violence. particularly for people have

serious mental illnesses. but we can make that clear. the issues around gun violence, and the impacts on serious mental health issue. we know that in communities, for example, where someone has been shot. that those communities, there can be a rise in people seeking care. in the aftermath of those kinds of conditions. we know that children who are exposed to gun violence or part of a community where you see gun violence, they gain trauma at a higher rate of what we call vicarious trauma. they may not have been personally involved with. but being a witness or coming home and seeing tape around your neighbor's house, those sorts of things do have an impact. and for mental health standpoint we are recognizing the importance of reaching out to people in those communities,

and providing care and support. >> donald, california, good morning, you are next. >> yes. i read a book by milton ericsson, and i coaxed myself. it's about hypnosis. i coached myself into a trans. what happened was the link between the congress and the subconscious mind, i subconsciously responded to a command from my consciousness, because i was able to follow the rules to go into a trans. and this was a very light trans, it took me only an hour to get to that point. but i followed exactly what it told me to, and what happened was i gave myself a careful ordered to raise my arm, and just by doing, that my arm actually raised physically with force. and i gave myself a second command to raise my arm with more strength. and it did. so there is a link between

congress and the subconscious mind. also i'd like to add that there is another book i, read i won't mention it. but it talks about the reactive mind. and conscious mind, that the conscious mind is analytical. >> we are leaving this year for live coverage of the senate hearing looking at reauthorizing federal aviation administration programs. look at what here on c-span 3.

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