and the reconstruction era right on the founding fathers. and, at 9:30 pm eastern on the presidency, historian david, looks at depression era america through the personality and presidency of franklin roosevelt,, and his 1936 landslide election. called roosevelt's let e nation. exploring the american story, watch american history tv, saturdays, on c-span two. and find a full schedule on your program guide, or watch online anytime at c-span.org. slush history. if you are enjoying american history tv, sign up for our newsletter using the qr code on the screen to receive the weekly schedule of upcoming programs like lectures on history, the presidency, and more. sign up for the american history tv newsletter today and make sure to watch american history tv every saturday, or anytime online at c-span.org

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trying to calculate the years, but it was back in the 19 hundreds when we first met. isn't that amazing how that sounds now? >> [laughter] -- >> dr. mayer is now a professor america from the graduate school of duquesne university in my hometown of pittsburgh, pennsylvania where she taught for many decades. she did two stints as chair of the history department there after joining to kane, after receiving her ph.d. at the college of william merit. she also served as the visiting harold k johnson chair of military history at the u.s. army war college out in carlisle, pennsylvania. and currently, during this academic year, at west point where she's serving as the professor of history. she's also been commissioned,

went through our otc, and served in the u.s. army reserves. so she's stood a long time ago, but she still stands barely straight. you are recognizable as a military person still. she's the author of a whole slew of articles about the sort of military and history, the historical, military, social, political intersections of history in the area of the american revolution and the colonial era. her first book belonging to the army, camp followers and community during the american revolution, it's still in print and absolutely an essential text for studying this period of time. but she's here to talk tonight about her hot off the press, i think this is literally hot off the press, new book. a canadian regiment, the continental army, and the american union. canada? what does canada have to do with the american revolution? please join me in welcoming warmly doctor holly mayer.

>> thank you so much. it's wonderful to be here with all of you. to share in this community of history and the revolution in particular, and to of course examine this particular very unusual regiment, or an uncommon regiment for an uncommon revolution, as we could also say for it. so, i'm starting off, and i just want to point out that that is an image. it's a painting that is on the cover of my book. i figured i might as well say kudos to him as well for helping illustrate my book, as well as of course being here in many other illustrations and paintings in about a month that you will be able to see. so well worth it. wonderful. so with congress's own, i wanted to talk a few things about the regiment in particular, and then actually spend more time talking about

sergeant major john h. hopkins, who was the person who introduced me to this regiment through his writings in that journal that i found at the historical society of pennsylvania. i wanted to take it a step further to talk about this with you. and to make sure i'm going in the right direction here. it's to pick up and talk about the congress's own regiment, which actually went through about three or four different names through its lifetime. as this uncommon regiment, it was first formed actually in january of 1776, authorized by the continental congress for moses hazen as the colonel. and lieutenant colonel edward antill as the second in command. it was commissioned as the second canadian regiment. so that brings us up to this point about why a canadian regiment. and i asked students at time, did you know that canada was involved? well yeah, there was an invasion.

the americans lost. they had to retreat from quebec. you know, by june of 76 they are gone and that was the end of canada. well no, not really. not by any means. while the american invading force was up in canada, it was already starting to recruit canadians to join in this rebellion. certainly, the continental congress was sending out declarations to the canadians, especially the french canadians, essentially saying come join us. rebel with us. you might think it goes back to the enemy of my enemy is my friend. so the french canadians at one point had certainly been the enemies of most of the new englanders and others who had been fighting colonial wars with the french and their indian allies through a series of imperial conflicts. but at this point it was let's invite the canadians in because we truly want this to be a continental rebellion. let us have a true continental congress with canadian

representatives. let us have a continental army which includes canadians as well, as we invite others to join us in what was first of course a rebellion in defense of the rights of americans, or these continental provincials in the early part, and then after july 76, ultimately a revolution for the independents of the country itself. so they were joining us. the first regiment, or the first canadian, was by james livingston. who had already been in action up there. so he got the first canadian, and moses hazen got the second canadian. to give you a little background on moses hazen, he had actually been in rogers rangers during the seven years'war. then he had actually gotten a commission with the 44th regiment of foot, which ultimately led him to retire in the montreal region right around saint-jean in canada

itself. i like to point this out. here was an american who did get a british commission, as opposed to washington who did not. hazen was actually really really torn about which way he was going to go in this conflict. he was getting a pension from the british government for his service during the seven years'war. he was right there on the borderlands. you can see it up there in canada, up along st. johns, just south of montreal. would he give up that pension, those lands, to join in this american rebellion? at first, he wasn't sure, he was really on the fence in those borderlands, which way he was going to go. ultimately in the end of course, as we know, he decided to join with the americans, that he could create his own regiment, and that he had command of that regiment, the second canadian regiment in this case. so hazen is not the person that i really want to talk about though.

i want to continue on with this regiment on a few other points. the second canadian was then in the retreat from canada, and at that point it had lost probably about half of its recruits on that retreat down to crown point, then fort ticonderoga ultimately into albany. through the summer of 76, it was a true question as to whether or not these canadian regiments would continue. canada was not choosing to join in this rebellion. so why would you have this other canadian regiment? the original idea behind it was that it would be like all of the other colonies that became states. it would have its own iteration of a regiment. but if it's not joining the rebellion, then what are we doing with this regiments? ultimately, what happened is that congress by september of 76 went back to hazen, and he was really pushing for this, and said yes, we will reauthorize your second canadian regiment.

you can recruit among the canadian refugees that were up around albany. certainly recruit those that had come with the american forces to cairo -- to ticonderoga and the like, but we are also authorizing you to recruit among all of the states. so here's another unique factor about the second canadian regiment. it's that it is allowed to recruit elsewhere. this brings up the next point. how many people from elsewhere would actually want to join the canadian regiment? if they are from pennsylvania, new jersey, maryland, connecticut, rhode island, which is where they are trying to recruit. advertisements goingand in the , certainly by the end of 76 going into 77, we see then the advertising comes -- advertisement going out, the recording going out for congress's own regiment. this is not something necessarily that congress itself had authorized. it seems to have come out of the regiment itself.

i think it actually probably came from lieutenant colonel null edward antill, who was part of this. he was more of a thinker than moses hazen i think quite frankly. i see hazen as the pugilist who was always really rather irritating as an individual, from what i can see. i think his commanding officers saw that. certainly, general knocks at the end of it said this was a man who was blessed with one of the most obstinate tempers he had ever seen. but it was the kind of temper that meant this regiment continued in action through the rest of the war. given this, it starts going out for recruiting for congress's own. you can see what's going on here. you can't recruit for second canadian among all of, them but you can for congress's own guard. here it's cut elite status. this sounds real good. this is better than just simply what the first pennsylvania, really? the first virginia? why not congress's own? and they did tremendous really well --

tremendously well. this regiment was authorized 1000 men, so much bigger than the common continental infantry regiment. but it was authorized by the spring of 77. it was hitting close to 900 men that had enlisted in the regiment. they all state? absolutely not. we see it in the records, some of these guys joined up, put daca kate in their cap, got their bounty money, and had it off. we've got, that they don't all stay, but it was tremendously successful recruiting under congress's own. unfortunately, this regiment also did not always get along with others. it got a rather informal reputation in what it was doing, and congress came back and said you are not supposed to be calling it congress's own. so what is it supposed to be called? back to second canadian? no, that is not doing recruiting. they tended to keep going, which was rather traditional,

by hastens name. so it was hazen's regiment for much of the war. but i also noticed in some of the rosters, that the captains in this regiment pushed a little cor under their roster. they are still part of congress 's own regiment. they knew how they were being recruited, and how they were doing the recruiting in it. so they were incredibly successful under that. under that name of congress's own. they continue to do that through the rest of the war, even after 1781 when james livingston's regiment was demobilized. anybody left over from that, as well as other foreign recruits and soldiers, joined hastens regiment and it became known as the canadian old regiment. but let me tell you, that is not the name that is in the pension accounts. hazen's regiment, congress's own, is usually what you see. they picked up on that

identity. so this leads me into the other one that i want to talk about. this is how we kept sergeant major john h. hopkins. it's that they are recruiting among all of these other camps and garrison's up in the new york area. they are sending recruiting officers down here into pennsylvania, into these other states, to the point where we've got soldiers from 11 of the states in the regiments. the only ones we don't have is i haven't found anyone from south carolina or georgia in this regiment. but they've got somebody from every other state. so they've got this tremendously unique regiment that was called canadian, was called congress's own, but in some ways is a microcosm of the continental army itself. that within its companies, and many of these companies were segregated by states. there was certainly at least

two of the companies that were still french canadian, with officers who were still talking french with their soldiers, along with all of these other recruits. so sergeant major john h. hopkins, from what i can see, had actually first enlisted in 76 in a pennsylvania unit. had served through it and then, in early january of 77, was up for reenlistment. so many of the soldiers who had enlisted in 76 were on short term enlistments. the army going into 77 was again trying to recruit in army at this point. and john h. hopkins reenlist id in congress's own. as a realist it, because he also had service time, and i think also because he was so literate, he was a writer, i will come to that in a moment, it's that he was first given a corporal's enlistments, and then break quickly within weeks was made a sergeant of the regiment.

so john h. hopkins, who is he? i think he is from philadelphia. some of this, or i won't say full assumptions. i'm following clues. i spent probably way too much time trying to find this guy in the records. not always the easiest person to find. but from what i could understand, first of all by reading his journal, it's that he kept talking about his typographical brethren. he talked about printing offices. he talked about newspapers. he was holding newspapers and books in his nap sex. in fact, when you look at that journal over there, they've got it on the page where he's talking about what he lost when he shocked his knapsack when he was running before those brutish islanders to get away at brandon wine. part of it when you look in there, he's talking about papers, and quills, and the books, and the other things that he had in his knapsack. so we've got this point that he

was affiliated with printing in some form. so i went a little further trying to do research, and actually found a runaway hand for an apprentice that ran away from david sellers printing shop here in philadelphia. this was back in 58. you just go, is this the same guy as john hopkins? it's printing. it's pennsylvania. it's very likely. unfortunately, i could not nail it down for sure because he did not say anywhere in his journal that he was a runaway apprentice. i wonder why. but there was this, and of course you get that little hint in this looking at hawkins in his story, that he had run away from david sellers shop. david seller had been a partner of david hall, who had been a partner offender and franklin, who was the most notorious runaway apprentice of all.

right? so you are going, oh he's following that kind of tradition in some form or another. well, from what it appears, he must have come back and served out his term as an apprentice or found something else, because he's back here in pennsylvania and in philadelphia. but obviously, not finding a job or his own independent shop, and thus there he was enlisting in the continental army during the revolution. so we followed him in, but it also makes sense about why he would be a sergeant, and certainly why a sergeant major. this is somebody who can keep the records. and he was, he was writing some of the orderly books. so we've got proof of this individual. but the big part was that journal. now of course, i looked at that journal and it's wonderful. think about the material resources when you can touch this. and i was. and you are hearing this and going, 250 years ago he was

writing in this. and so from his pen and ink to my eyes to see what is going on in his world at that time. he's speaking to me through that writing. and i intern i'm trying to speak to you through his writing as well, to introduce you into his world. and what he saw. in his revolution. so to take it from there. again, he is there in a regiment that had probably close to 1900 men serving in it over the course of the war. again, unique and tremendously large of a unit in there. so i wanted to take it a step further from his journal in this. and we can come back to talking about this, certainly to answer your questions about the regiment itself, where it served, and how, but what i really wanted to pick up on here is that country campaign.

that is not as familiar to many people looking at the revolution. just like a canadian regiment is not so familiar. one of the great things in hawkins the journal is when he talks about what he sees as he is marching through this country. who is he talking to? who are some of the people? he's looking at the community that is becoming a nation. he is seeing what a similar and different as he is marching through it. so this brings me back to this point that i wanted to bring up here. it's that i'm picking up on another scholar's work, benedict anderson, who was talking about a mansion -- imagined political communities in this. he premised that a nation is an imagined political community, because the members of even the smallest nation will never know most of their fellow members. they will never meet them or

even hear of them, and yet in the minds of each lives the image of their communion. that image of the communion can exist at the same time through shared experiences, overtime through events like this. so we are part of that imagined community. partthat imagined community ths part of the nation, and we are doing it through him. so right now as we work through his words, we all part of the imagined community of that developing nation. in the 17 70s going through the 1780s. so we are sitting here in philadelphia, here in 21, in the philadelphia that he was living in in 1776, that he marched through on the way to yorktown. well actually, he sailed throw it in 1781. but we are part of that imagined community. we are part of an imagined

community right now as we are all finally getting to see each other, but then there are those who are over there, over zoom. so i say hi to you! you are part of this imagined community! we are all here to look at this particular history. the other part that benedict anderson had mentioned is that, when we formed these communities, he talked about journeys or pilgrimages between times and statuses and places. so again, we are part of that journey. what these are meaning creating experiences, that created the experience of the imagined community. so i would like us to consider as well that when we look at the continental army as it is marching through the united states, the new united states, they are creating this community. and it's not all imagined! they are actually experiencing. they are actually seeing it. they are actually meeting these people. so here it is, this

philadelphian who's meeting people up in massachusetts and new york and up into the coups country that is vermont and new hampshire. he's meeting them and making these distinctions about are they like us or unlike us? are they with us or not with us in some form? and we expand that to all of the thousands and tens of thousands who were part of that army at that time, taking what is imagined and making it real. in some form or another. so we come back to that reality. as we look at hawkins. so i wanted to pick it up, especially in this one aspect. coups country campaign. this was in 1779. so even before, this a year before this in 78, there was talk about a possible another invasion into canada. general lafayette was given charge of that possible invasion in 78. let's move up and go for it.

certainly, hazen was ready for this. yes, let's get back to canada! i will have my estates back there. i want to get my land back, the rest of it. and it went nowhere. okay? that was the end of it in 78. they could not get the support or the supplies. quite frankly, general washington post not real fond of the idea either. he had other things he needed to do in 78 instead of worrying about canada. so it was put on a backburner. then, on the 6th of march in 1979, washington ordered hazen's regiment to move into the coos country. so at that point, hastens regiment had spent the winter at what was called putnam's folly, which is outside of reading, connecticut. one of the largest encampments through this war. probably about the largest inhabited area at that point in connecticut.

so it's a big down. they were given the orders to start marching north into the coos country, and then eventually to build a road, or cut a road, from hammer hill new hampshire threw into what were the new hampshire grants, also called the pretended state of vermont at that point, and to move up towards the canadian border. so this was the orders. now what was the reason for it? hazen's orders were, you are to scout the area, build a road, and engage the populace. so three components to that mission. he wanted hazen in particular to discover whether the inhabitants would support an expedition to canada. so he's saying, go out there and do it, especially if they were to do it with french support, which by that time america had. so he was going, you know, why don't you go up and do that? hazen is delighted to take his

regiment up there to do this. what he did not realize, and what washington did not tell him, is that this was actually part of washington's greater strategy, which threefold could be seen as a strategy of disinformation out to the enemy and those within the states as well as up to canada. a diversion against the enemy in canada, so if they think the enemy is coming one way, they might not be watching this closely in another direction. and that also ultimately bone to throw to people like hazen who had kept harassing him. remember, he had that upton temper, about making an invasion into canada. can you all figure why washington wanted a diversion in the spring and summer of 79? what we talked? look a little over there to new

york. on that border. you may have heard of general sullivan and a campaign against the native americans into new york. to move against that enemy. wouldn't it make a lot of sense, if you are sending sullivan up one way, you have hayes and create a diversion in another locale? it's a faint. all right? move them in a different direction. so hazen is delighted and sends his troops up. this brings us back to hawkinson. hawkins describes what he's seeing on that track that you see listed on there. so they are basically following the connecticut river valley. moving up into new hampshire and across into what will become vermont. he describes the various towns and peoples on this track. they move out in three divisions, essentially what would have been three battalions within the regiment itself as they saw it, moving

up first through to springfield, massachusetts. at springfield, hawkins records, at daybreak on 14 april, all three divisions marched out followed by the baggage train. he records eight wagons, 21 teams, 21 teams to be pulling these wagons. those have to be really heavy wagons. and they definitely are, because what is on them? loaded with spades, shovels, axes, picks, carbines, horseman swords, pistols, and other military storage. carpenters tools, armors tools, provisions. they are out to really cut this road, and they are taking all the tools with them. so think for a minute what that would look like to the communities through which this baggage train is going with these soldiers in these three

divisions, who may not have seen a lot of soldiers up to this point. they are moving through. this is part of hazen engaging the populists. it's not just the tools to cut the road. this is, if you will, to show the flag in this area. this is a borderland on this revolutionary frontier, where much of the action is beyond their, but they are not forgotten. we are sending troops out there to deal with issues they are worried about. and of course, hazen is still hoping he will get his lance back. so we've got that part. so they've got that, and they are trailing behind, they -- their own traveling for. if they break their tools, they can fix them. they've got that in the wagon as well. so again, they are marching out, you've got all of these animals, all of these wagons, moving out

to show the force of the continental army. and by extension, congressional authority that they are moving on that into these hinterland's. this is part of creating that political community as well as sending the military up. so they start marching in hill territory, but hawkins is looking there. where are the level roads? was the beautiful pine tree country? where the trees are shading the road on a hot day. that's really important when you are wearing violence and marching up through this and it's warm. where are the fine houses and the farms? he looks at northampton. what a handsome and large village, though much scattered. checking it out. how does it work? he goes, the court of justice is small but very elegant house. the work is very grand.

other things pointing out how people are living. so he is praising some areas that he goes through, and then he denigrates others. -- was, for instance, despicable. okay, not good for pr there. one poll, lord, where he found the troops much scattered. some in whaling houses and others in barnes. the poor, me, despicable, wretched town. it could not afford one regiment room in their dwelling houses for one night. this is the first night that our men have been under the necessity of lying in barnes on this march. so a fascinating point in this. he's revealing that as they have been marching through these communities, they have been ordered in people's homes. the inhabitants along this track have been welcoming these

soldiers into their homes. they've not had to lay out underneath the stars, or at that point, up to that point, in barnes. i will point out it could be welcoming. hazen was also perfectly willing to threaten councilman along the way. that if you are not willing to give us the supplies that we need, for instance flour, then we will take it. if you don't let us stable our horses in your barns, we will then put them in any way and stay there until you supply. so again, that ups didn't temper, either be very willing to do it, or we will use a little bit of authority to get what we want. that was part of it, but it was interesting that despicable one is the one that makes the men sleep in the barn. these are the ones, these

wonderful communities, are welcoming the soldiers into their homes. so he was very happy to leave miserable wall pool on the 24th about role and arrive in charleston. handsome those small, but lovely, it resembled, princeton new jersey. again, there's this other side to it where he's taking what he knows and comparing what he's just meeting. hey, they are like us. they are like princeton up there. we've got these connections. they are part of our community in doing this. then he also pointed out the other side of the connecticut river is what is called the state of vermont, but which is in dispute at that time. okay. so he's observing and recording. he's examining what is different, what is similar, what is common among these various regions and peoples. there was certainly some

unfavorable comparisons, but quite frankly he was often very positive about what he was seeing. i will say he was also always looking for future opportunities. the thing we see with hawkins is that he could not make it as a printer down here in philadelphia. i think there was a surplus of printers down here in philadelphia at the time, but he was certainly looking up there. you see things like albany, do you have a printing press their? i see no one is using it. well, he was drafting a letter to say would you be interested in letting me have it? of setting something up? you looked at what was a pet dartmouth college. oh, they have a printing press. wonderful. this liberty of liberties is the printing press. he thought this was great. that is true civilization, is to have a press. so he's up there looking for their opportunities and you go, this is what other soldiers were doing as well.

as they are marching through. are they going to go back home, or are they going to look for opportunities elsewhere? and the process of all of this, hawkins was tracking all of this out, as hazen's regiment was out there collecting intelligence, denying intelligence to the enemy as they were saying it, because they were also sending elements up into canada at that point, checking in with native americans, trying to have native american allies, or at least keeping them neutral. and making sure the new york settlers were protected from and also make sure they were not engaging with the enemy at that point. the regiment was showing the flag as it was moving into the border land to cut the invasion route. so as it did, and by the end of august, hazen had indeed cut that right up to what is now called hazen's notch. it's right there below the

canadian border. he was very close. he was within sight of the canadian border when he got orders from washington through return. that washington had gotten what he wanted out of the expedition. the faint had worked. sullivan's expedition was successful. it was time for hazing to bring his regiment back so that it would be ready for engagements through the rest of 79 and moving into 1780 at that point. so with this, and i know i'm coming to the end of this, they do continue on. if we go back to what we've said, after the coos country campaigned through their, they went back to morristown. the regiment suffered through the hardships of morristown in winter encampments there in 1780. their regiment did march to yorktown in 1781. hawkins was very good about recording that one as well, the long trip down into yorktown. what he was seeing there.

at yorktown, the regiment did distinguish itself in particular it's light infantry compan which had been attached to lafayette's ligh infantry core through that summer of 1781. and the light infantry of hasten regiment was part of the assault party under hamilton which beat the french were trying to take it at the exact same time. after yorktown, the regiment was sent up to lancaster, pennsylvania. not too far from here if you will, and they were on guard duty with the prisoners of war there, where i would like to point out that hazen again was pressing for an invasion of canada. threw into 1782, let's do it, you know, and everyone is waiting for the diplomats to get everything done. they get the peace treaty. let's do this, and there's hayes and going, come on, we have one last chance, let's go

for canada again. and i love it. washington writes back going, interesting. send me your plans. you know? i think this is great, as senior officer he's going right it out for me, about how this would actually work. and the trouble is, it only kept hazen occupied for a few weeks and then he already sent the plan back. but at that point, washington had other things for them to do. they were brought back up to new york, and spent most of the rest of the war up at pumped and waiting for the furlough. most of the troop was furloughed in july of 1783. one small contingent of it then continued up to west point, between west point and new bern, where they stayed until the army was totally disbanded in november of 1783. so here was a regiment that served from basically 1776 when it was authorized in january,

to november of 1783. and in it, sergeant major john h. hopkins was with it from 1777 to 1783. and i'm very thankful that he left us a journal to see part of this regiments travels. thank you very much. [applause] -- >> shall we proceed with questions? i see tyler behind you. just raise your hand. i will maybe kick things off as soon as our contingency plan comes into effect here with our handheld. i really appreciated your casting the role of the continental army as a sort of nationalizing force. that is something that, for those of you who are familiar with our core exhibition here at the museum, you recall that very dramatic tableau scene

with a live cast figures of the snowball fight with george washington breaking up this fight between new england and virginia soldiers. we did that of course because we wanted to remind, for the first time, tell visitors that the nation did not spurring out of the hands of the men who were gathered down the street here, but that it was really a hard long process. perhaps an ongoing process that is still going on a little bit later in the court exhibition. you see that display of soldiers buttons from the period of 1777 and the valley forge encampment when usa was first embossed and the buttons worn by soldiers uniforms. one thing we wanted to convey is this is actually the first time most americans would have seen, you know we chant usa, the first time that appears is on the bodies of these

continental army soldiers. so i think this regiment, again being a regiment without a country, it's just an incredible embodiment of that process. >> they very much were. when you start looking at the rosters. at the end of this war, lieutenant benjamin morris, who was actually the nephew of hazen, started to do posture. they were -- actually, hawkins was part of that. he had actually done part of the roster and moved them together. that master roster had about, i counted 1482 soldiers on that roster. then i also did more research and pulled out another 300 or so that weren't on, it many of them were the french canadians who had left or stayed and canada instead of coming down at the retreat. so again, we get into about 1900. but then on that roster, they did not have places where they

came from. it was absolutely important, because later on when they wanted their bounty lights and the rest, they needed to have a state affiliation by which to get it. but about 300 of this means just head ups after them. in other words, they had no state affiliation. they only had the united states affiliation. and then after that we saw the pennsylvanians and the new yorkers and new jersey and the like that we saw, but that u.s. was essential for the french canadians. it was also essential for some of the foreigners. we did have some prisoners of war at lancaster who joined hastens regiment. germans more than the english in that case. others had also joined, so it was very much a multi ethnic, multi lingual, regiment there with the continental army. >> what happens to sergeant major hawkins after 1783? >> that is the hard part, sergeant major hawkins almost disappears. there are only two other records i found and they

were both about bounty lands in particular, as he was selling them off or distributing them elsewhere. basically, my 93 i cannot find him. i actually went into the records for the yellow fever hospitals to say whether he died and one of the hospitals, to see whether that happened, i could not find his name. i was a little relieved by that point, i did find at least two john hopkins in the philadelphia directories. one was more of a cobbler and the other was a grocer, i thought, you know, is it possible? if he is who i think he was he may have had some experience with leather working in the family. i am more inclined to think he could be a grocer. with his experience it would have been relatively easy for him to set that up and to go into trade. he definitely did not become a farmer, i think he was too urban for that, i did not have that kind of experience but i spent a lot of time trying to

do it, i was determined to find this guy. i wanted to, who left this marvelous journal, i have spent all this time reading about him. i want to meet hand, you know? more than hazen, hazen, no problem but hawkins i really wanted to find. i couldn't, one of my colleagues said, that is part of the story here, is that so many of the people that we have named on these rosters, this is all we have of them. we know that they lived, we have their name, and we have nothing else. we know more about him but he also represents so many of the soldiers who came in, enlisted, fought, and disappeared. >> do we know where those journals were between him

disappearing into the ether and then ending up at hsp? or how they came into the collection? >> i have not seen it but if we want to talk to the hsp. >> there is a guy over there who might be able to help us with this. >> i will say, what is evident in this, at some point they were together, so, actually when he was writing them they were in smaller, paper bound kind of stitched together pages. and then, at some point, somebody decided to put them within a leather binding. and when they did they were one or two pieces bound out of order. i was going, it stops here but then that is not going to this page. and, then i find it later on in the journal, there was a little bit of a difference. and if you take a good look at the journal you will notice the pages are of different sizes and they differentials again is showing where this first came from, and that the binding was later for this. >> thank you, doctor, i am

going to throw the first question to one of our guests watching from home, this is from riley sutherland, who clearly is a fan of your past research. reilly asked, did dr. mayors will research reveal anything about the canadian women attached to the regimen? and if so, did their experience differ from other camp followers and women we know of in other revolutionary british forces. >> absolutely, i managed to get a little bit in here about the women with the regiment i, could not leave camp followers, out there was no way. what we do know is that women and children did also retreat with the french canadians at the retreat from canada. moses hazen's wife, charlotte, was also a refugee, edward antill's wife was a refugee. she also kept bearing children in camp, and losing about half of them in camp through the process of this war. there were certainly other soldiers who had their

wives and children with them in camp, and, what is interesting is that within a few years, at least with the french canadians, seeing that some of the soldiers who had come down we're starting to marry the daughters of the other soldiers who had come down. they were maintaining their community ties in the camps. it is that it was much older soldiers with teenage daughters, but, if you look at the regulations, at some points they were saying women over the age of 14 would not be allowed to be in camp separately. you go, well, at that point you get married, you get rations, you are allowed to stay in camp. i did not find as many women following with the anglo soldiers, certainly not with the deserters from the german or the british side coming in with them. most of the time that is where they could stay closer to home, one

of the things for camp followers to always remember is are they coming out of areas in which there is action? they are following because they are all few refugees, not simply because of the funding. but, yes, they are there, they are in the book. >> i am curious, can you talk a little bit about fast forwarding to the 19th century when those who have a survived to the pension act in 1818 to 1832, what were you able to find out through those sources? which i think should be known by all americans, this is the first oral history archive of an american conflict, 80,000 pension records in the national archives. it is still such a bountiful field to plow, what did you learn about the ceo are?

>> first we find out the best records usually come after 1820, when you say you have to show need and what you all, what you don't on, and they are making this by the time you get into the 1830s. at this point they are just saying, you survived, we can pension you off at that point. in the 18 30s is also when the widows could ask for the pensions based on their husbands service, the soldiers service, and they would have to give proof of if they were actually married. the first of the accounts said, were you married during the war, then later on where you married within so many years of the war? and then, finally, it did not matter when you married the veteran. just that you have been married to one of the soldiers. what was tremendous and where i got most of these records was among the french canadians, because actually, congress, or the war department was tending to push against some of them, especially going that means that she got married when she was 13, now, that

cannot be, there must be something wrong. no, they actually did mary at 13 and some of these cases, and here are the reasons why. and they would try to get more information from these women, most of them were illiterate and she cannot write her name, she does not know this but she can give you the story. or tell tales about, well, we stood up in the barracks before everybody in the company and declare that we were married with the company commander there to supervise us, so, it was a common law marriage. and then, for them, they were waiting until a priest would arrive and could actually do the sacramental marriage at this point. which did happen. there was a missionary priest by the name of father farmer who went up to the encampments and married some of them and baptized some of the children. so we have that. but, what they were doing was telling us these little intimate details of their life, at least one they thought they got married, if they had had children while they were still in camp with them at some point. the other

part that was tremendous is they had maintained the community. for many of the french canadians new york state gave them bounty lands and those bounty lands were up past plattsburg. so, they were right on the canadian border. some of them were within 50 miles of where they had lived before the war. so, they were very close to home again at that point. and they had created a community up there. and then, and the pension accounts you have a sister being witness to sister. from being witness to a brother's children. to than their children are representing their parents in these accounts. but, they really were all very much a strong community this way. so, it was a great other story, there. >> it is certainly been a theme of much of your work is thinking of these institutions whether they're regiments or

armies, as communities. >> it really comes through. i think they would stay together better if they have become a community. have that sense of affiliation with them. as i said, it is also picking up on this idea of creating a community that is a nation. so, you have the smaller communities and then the bigger one that keeps growing from them. >> i will ask another question from our friends on the internet, walt, jarred, i am just wondering if john hopkins says anything about the famous cabals and inside dealing that those of us who have been studying the later years of the revolutionary war may have heard of. >> not as much, i wish he would, there are quite a few gaps in his record. part of it, as you would see, as he lost part of his journal when he was running away from the highlander at brandywine. there was another account, when he was up at albany they had marched up from

wilmington to albany for that first so-called eruption into canada and 78, and he had lost stuff out of his pocket that he thought was stolen. and there one another journal at that point. so, there are gaps in the record, at that point would i do see at the end, and this was before the new bergh conspiracy, as he was talking about hazen and hastens military family all together in aaron's kyler's house up there. and they are sitting around, and he is trying to write his journal, and he is trying to write letters and people are singing and dancing all around him. and then, the housekeeper, apparently, at that point just kept trying to push his stuff aside. he is saying, i am in fear of my life right now as she is brandishing knives at me to put down on the table, to set the table for dinner. he was talking more about things that intimately concerned hand as opposed to those greater events. i would have loved to

say they account about mutiny in new jersey, his regiment was part of putting that down. but that is one of the gaps in the journal. >> i was about to call on john reefs. >> holly, could you tell us what you know about any african americans with the regiment? >> i did look this up. i was checking it out. there was a few african americans in hazen's regiment. but what made it difficult is that, in the rosters, they were not putting down race next to the soldiers names. they put down where they came from, because that is where they were to be supplied and paid, but there was no indication of race. so what i started to do is i was researching -- part of what we can do sometimes is by naming. a name that seems like it was

often associated with african americans. if i ran across that name, i would try to research it. i did find a few that way, by tracing them back through census accounts. so kates, who could have been cato mom furred at one point, was found as a free person of color up in connecticut. but he was never noted that way in the regiment itself. another person that -- so i found about three or four, that's really all i could say for sure that i had corroborating evidence to say that this was a person of color. one was john saratoga. he's an interesting character. no indication whatsoever about race. where i found out was later on at the end of the war. edward chen, who was the pay master of the regiment, put in the paperwork saying all money due to john saratoga were to go

to him, for he is my slave for life. here we know that we had, so, kates mumford was a free person of color, then we have john saratoga was an enslaved person, both serving in the regiment. major john taylor from virginia brought an enslaved servant with him. registered him into the regiment. so that he was getting rations and paid through his enslaved servant. so we do know that they were there. there were other accounts for putnam's regiment at one point about 27 men, and hazen's regiment was part of putnam's regiment. there was 27 african americans with the regiment at that time, some of them were probably in hastens regiment. so i was really trying to track him down, but i found it very

interesting that they did not make that designator. what does that mean? that they are not making that designator on these troops. >> before we give everyone the opportunity to get their book signed, to appreciate the amazing artifact we have on loan from hsp or imagine what that knapsack contained with our recreation, it is our long tradition for scott stevenson to have the final question. >> i do like to have the final word. i am curious, have portions, presumably not all of the diary has been published, i am just curious if what would you like to say about that. >> i did in the midst of doing this, this is one of the things where your research goes wrong or right, but when i first came across the sergeant major's journal, and he is my sergeant

major, is that i started to think this would be a great thing to transcribe, annotate, and then publish as a primary source for use. so i ended up transcribing the entire journal. i have the transcriptions in my records, but i got so involved, every time i was going to annotate something, i've got to learn more, of got to learn more. the next thing you know is i think i'm writing a monograph here. i have some other story in this. so there's a part of me that is still thinking maybe i should still go back and publish this primary source for use in schools and elsewhere. whether or not that is as important anymore as we do more and more digital history is the question. if i don't go in that direction, i am going to give the transcription to hsp, it does not make sense of it stays on my computer at that point. [applause]

>> well, the second half of my final question is just, more broadly, as we approach the 250th anniversary of the declaration of independence, it will be somewhat of a celebration, i hope you are in philadelphia, i am just curious what you are thinking about, what are your aspirations, what are you worried about, open-ended question, how are you reflecting on the commemoration, anniversary that is coming up? >> i am certainly hoping i will still be here to celebrate that. actually, right now i'm just working, i'm actually an editor for a volume on women waging war. it is a collection of essays about the women's side of this war, it is under contract with the uva press and should be coming out next spring. that is the project in the near term, then it may be revisiting sergeant major hawkins. >> fantastic, thank you very much for joining us here

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