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♪ ♪ ♪ >> mitt cohen, with these television companies support c-span 2 as a public service. >> good evening, and welcome to einstein's war, a program in partnership with linda hall library, and the national world war one museum and memorial. two cultural institutions located right here in kansas city, missouri. we are delighted to be able to see the intersection of science and history, and bring your great conversations like this one. now it is my pleasure, and my honor to introduce the president of all in the whole library, isa howard. >> thank you, laura. we were also pleased to present tonight's program in association with the national

world war i museum and memorial. for the past several years, or two institutions have worked together to present programs on a wide range of topics. illustrating the role played by science in the first world war. tonight's event, einstein's war, how relativity triumphed amid the vicious nationalism of world war i, discusses the effects of that were on the global scientific community and the obstacles that one member of that community, albert einstein, had to overcome. on behalf of everyone at the london hall library, thank you for joining us this evening, and now i will turn it back to laura to introduce tonight's distinguished speaker. >> lisa, thank you very much. it is truly my honor to introduce dr. matthew stanley. he is a professor of the history of science at new york university. he obtained his ph.d. from harvard. he is the fifth author of

einstein's were, how relativity triumphed in the world war one, a story of how pacifism, and friendship led to a scientific revolution. he has also written practical mystic religion, science, and -- church and -- demon, which explore the complex relationships between science and religion in history. and potentially my favorite introductory remark and my tenure career here, he is also a host of a podcast that you can find on all of you are streaming services. so go to your streaming service of choice. it is a podcast, i think you might enjoy, but if you want to test it out before you start downloading that, you are in for a treat. you have an hour ahead, again, we welcome your questions. but even more so, we welcome you.

dr. matt stanley. >> thanks, laura. and thank you to the national museum and memorial, it has been deliberate to put this together. i am delighted to be here. i think that i am supposed to say that i rather be there in person, but i have been watching the locations that people are putting into the chat, and i have to say that it is really extraordinary that i am going to get to talk to people from coast to coast, and really around the world. that is perhaps, it will work out better than if i had actually been there in person. so, we are here, of course, to talk about einstein. let me get my screen going properly here. and i'm just time, in some sense, we feel like we all know.

his name is synonymous with genius, he is the icon of science, he is literally the image you think of when you think of science, and scientists. and kind of what i want to talk about tonight, the story i want to tell is how that came to be. and in some sense, how extraordinary and unusual it was that in the space of just a few weeks, einstein goes from being an obscure academic to literally being recognized all around the world. and one of the aspects of the story that i think it's particularly fascinating is that he did not have much to do with this sudden change. that is, it was not just because he was a genius. he became famous because he was in a particular place, at a particular time, and specifically that was in berlin during the middle of the great war. he was blockaded, he was starving. it might not sound like it would be conducive to a scientific revolution, but there was one extra element to the story that made all the

difference. that was instant friends, that is, it was not just him, it was a whole network of people. and we are going to begin the story not with, perhaps the old sagely einstein that we all know well, nor the young heroic einstein, but rather the middle aged einstein. he was not a patent clerk anymore, he has held a couple of professional ships, and as we are picking up the story, he is moving to berlin from switzerland. he is actually moving back to germany for the first time. he was born there in the southern part to a secular, jewish family. he came to really dislike the german forms of authority, and classroom instruction. and through various experiences, he became what he describes as a socialist internationalist.

so switzerland was a very comfortable place for him. and moving back to germany, it was a matter of some emotional discomfort. he remembered his difficult childhood there. but he had been sought after, recruited, by some of the finest minds in the german science. in particular because of some of his contributions to what will eventually become the theory of -- but it is important to note that even though he is being recruited for this job, he is not yet phased, nobody outside of physics knew his name, and most people within physics would not have known his name either, unless they were working on this very specific aspect of quantum theory. and while einstein was recruited to work on the quantum theory, his baby, what he really wanted to spend his scientific time working on was his theory of relativity. the theory of relativity comes in a couple of different parts. the first part of it was what was called a special theory of relativity, that he published in 1905.

and as a name suggests, it applied to only very specific, and restricted situations. it wasn't applicable to many different kinds of circumstances that might be interested in. so what einstein wanted to do, and he really had not had the time to do this, even by 1914, was to create what he called the general theory of relativity. this was an attempt to expand his conclusions from 1905 to literally the entire universe. to all of the conceivable situations for which one might be interested in the loss of nature. and he hopes that moving to this new position in berlin, he will finally be able -- he has very few teaching responsibilities, very few administrative responsibilities, but the hiccup turns out that he had been having an affair with a woman in berlin for some years. himself in the science he would have been extremely rocky so upon moving to berlin with his family, instead of being able to throw himself into the

science, he had to deal with some extremely rocky relationship which. and in fact his first wife, malaysia, leaves him and takes the children. and is devastated by this. he had a very deep connection to his children. but of course this is all someone fault. so is a media thing he has to do is find a place to sleep. he crashes on his friend fits our birds catch for a while, and harbor helps counseling through the emotional wreckage of the end of his marriage. but eventually, einstein is able to settle down and work. as i said, what he is open to work on is this theory

of general relativity. general relativity is the idea that the right way to understand the universe is not as a universe made a space and made a time, but rather this four dimensional congratulation of space and time in which we three-dimensional creatures don't really experience the universe in the right way. so nonsense universe, space and time are warped by the presence of planets, stars. we talk about the fabric of space time being able to curve and stretch. and a lot of the strange things that we associate with relativity. things like locks running slow, twins aging at different rates, energy turning into matter, matter turning into energy, or all consequences of the sort of great vision that einstein has of the right way to approach the universe in a scientific and philosophical something. unfortunately for ads down, he discovers early on in the process of trying to develop general relativity that the mathematics necessary are extremely complicated. and einstein was not a very good student back in college. so it turns out that he had actually skipped the mathematics classes that he needed to develop this particular theory. so in a

rather extraordinary turn of events, he goes back to his friend whose notes he had copied so he could pass that class. the sao marcell grossman pictured here, who was by this time of professional mathematician, to ask him for help learning the mathematics that he was supposed to have learned back in. college as the story goes, einstein flings open takes flings open the door and says you must elbow. crazy. he helped overthrow the superstructure of the theory,

einstein have been working on the scientific theory. he published little on the theory at this point what he called his draft version seem pretty good. in particular, by the summer of 1914 he had achieved a milestone. it is not just that he had sort of formally put the equation out there, but rather he had gotten the theory to a point where he had to been tested. this was an important thing for any. he knew that he needed some sort of empirical. test some physical thing in the world that you can point to and say, this is why you should

believe that my theory is correct. in a particular job you are talking about here, there's actually three glass the test. so this is the one that is sort of at hand in 1914. something called a gravitational reflection of white. so i'm theory predicts that gravity should pull not just on heavy objects like tables and professors, but also on the most ephemeral things. that is light. so the path of light should be bent by gravity the same way that the path of a thrown ball is bent by gravity.

as well. but the effects is very tiny and you need an extremely strong gravitational source to observe this affects. so the way that einstein figured out you could see this effect was if you waited for a solar eclipse and then looked for a star that was supposed to be near the edge of the sun stuff.. is that the star appears to be in the sky. displaced from where it should be. and the effect is very small. so, you need very sophisticated and skilled observers to see it. and then you have to wait for a solar eclipse. fortunately, for einstein, very soon after he arrived in berlin, there is a solar eclipse for dictate to occur. essentially in crimea, which at the time is part of russia. and one of einstein's acolytes, a fan of his, was a trained astronomer who agreed to go to russia with the crew and the equipment needed and observe the eclipse. and try to get photographs to prove that einstein is right. at this time, this is a normal thing for scientists to do. that is, to cross borders and go to do scientific projects. there were

a half dozen cruise of astronomers in crimea area crimea to try to observe the solar eclipse, not necessarily to test the theory but just to see the eclipse. so einstein is biting his nails in berlin waiting to hear results from this expedition. the rest of the world doesn't care in the slightest. einstein's theory is of no interest except to a tiny handful of people. everyone else in the world is paying attention to in august 1914 is the culmination of geopolitical conflicts, the arms race, political tension and the spark of the -- and bosnia and herzegovina. that initiate's the beginning of world war i. scientists watch this happen, as the rest of the world does, and find that they hope they can hold themselves above the fray. that science is supposed to be an international enterprise, disconnected from human things like politics and conquest. in particular, as the war began, the british association for advancement of science is holding its annual meeting -- an international meeting as it turned out -- and many of the scientists there are -- and they declare that

rise above. one of the scientists in attendance there was arthur stanley eddington, a professor at cambridge, and also important for our story, also a quaker. this meant he was a pacifist and internationalist. he was very pleased to see at the meeting these international outreach efforts. but this was almost immediately bashed. in fact, the moment that one friend was supposed to toast to observe, he was arrested by russian police as a german spy and locked up in prison. scientists on both sides, international camps, german intellectuals

here, they had a famous declaration declaring their solidarity with the german army. this included many of einstein's friends and mentors. british scientists say germans could no longer be trusted to do science. this is a particularly famous astronomer, turner, and he did not agree that the lusitania was sunk. -- the german scientists had gone out of their way -- and this was far removed from the conception of science. german scientists began attacking each other. the nobel prize winner

dean caused called for german scientists to no longer be cited in papers. he said that they should no longer be -- partition them. he also accuses british scientists of taking credit for others were. this cuts across the lines that scientists use to communicate data back and forth. scientific journals are withdrawn. british scientists working in germany and austria are arrested. einstein finds himself horrified, in particular

discovering that he is essentially the only pacifist among the scientific community. he joins organizations, he tries to keep up against the war. he is largely ignored. because he is a person of no consequence at this time. he writes to a friend of his at this time, saying i love science twice as much in these times. i feel so painful for people about their emotional judgment and consequences. we scientists in particular must foster international relations all the more. and we must distance ourselves from emotions of war. this did not

have currency even among scientists. einstein felt these issues, essentially, immediately. as the war ends, the royal navy blockades germany and germany falls short on food within a week of the beginning of the war. this is a test. hundreds of die thousands of germans of die of starvation starvation--. einstein einstein was is nearly one of nearly one of them them. he was he is

starving, starving, he was very very sick, he sick, he has only survived trouble because he was getting surviving as he was getting food packages sent from food packages sent by friends in his friends and switzerland -- switzerland. he lost he loses 50 pounds in 50 pounds in two months -- he two months and complains that his complains hands were always cold, that his hands are that he can't always cold and he write for much cannot write. of the time he is for much of the time, bedridden he he is actually works in bed bedridden and he often in his pajamas, he writes

the works in bed in pajamas fundamental. pages of modern he cosmology well writes under the blankets. cosmology while so, under his he feels blankets. so he's isolated feeling politically and isolated intellectually in berlin politically and. intellectually in berlin. so, one of the places one of the places he sort of -- intellectual and -- social companionship is actually in the netherlands. the netherlands are neutral during the war. so he can go and visit there and -- gentlemen on the right side and there are physics friends. he enjoys being around the other internationalists and people of

lecturing politics. these are the people he discusses relatively with. so these are the only people in the world to know about this work, on general relativity, and as i've suggested, they stop scientific papers just as well as scientific armaments. and who would want to hear what a german scientist had to say in any case? some of his dutch friends -- he is an astronomer. the world should hear about einstein -- and so it happens that he speaks english. so he sends a letter to the

astronomical society in london describing einstein's work. it so happens that the secretary of the society is arthur stanley eddington. i can't overemphasize how lucky einstein was that addington opened up. and this is because few scientists were even willing to think about this. -- but eddington was a pacifist and internationalist and thought that international relations within science were absolutely critical. he also was one of the few people that understood complicated mathematics. so as it happened, he was chosen as the one corresponded britain who is willing and able to think about einstein and grapple with relativity. and so eddington recognizes the scientific significance. and he, like einstein, was feeling isolated. there are very few people he can talk to in england who,

within the scientific community, share his views. eddington is very worried about the future of international science. he knew -- he wasn't naive -- he knew there would be wartime disruptions, but suggesting that germans as a people could no longer be trusted to do science, seemed to him, absurd. he had been working hard to get his colleagues to think in international ways, and to moderate some of their anti german hatred. he does this through practical terms. he

points out that problems of astronomy are worldwide. latitude and longer toot lines don't care about borders. he also appeals to philosophical, idealistic and even spiritual concerns, saying that there is a conviction to the pursuit of truth, whether we are in the vast system of the stars, there are vast differences. and this is used as a barrier -- it's interesting to note that what eddington he's doing here, by taking the pacifist views to the war in general and applying them specifically to the realm of science. these include things like making contact across the trenches and showing that the world is better united than it is divided. he invites his colleagues -- not as a symbolic german but as a friend -- the german scientist -- he was called a baby killer to try to work up fury -- and a perversion of science. -- disaster. einstein is grappling with the symbols of science and appears, in his inbox, he sees an opportunity. so einstein was a symbol of science, reaching above the chasm formed by the war, showing that world changing science depended on international cooperation. on scientists working together. einstein was perfect for this because since einstein was a pacifist as well, -- as a peaceful german, einstein could be just what a quaker scientists needed to convince his colleagues of the error of their ways. that his relativity could show -- consumed by this wartime hatred. but remember, at this point, no one who einstein was. so dedicated the next couple years of his life to popularizing relativity and

getting people to speak about it. he has to do all of this without any direct indication by einstein. they cannot send letters through the telegram. they cannot stand letters back and forth through the neutral netherlands. this would look like espionage. many scientists get arrested in this way. so eddington was essentially on his own. he does manage to teach himself relativity. but he also realizes that persuading people of the importance of the theory would require tests. a physical -- that the theory should be true. so he wants to do this test, this has been attempted in 1914. and the eclipse was coming up in 1919 across the southern hemisphere. but it was not clear that -- would war be

over? would he be able to travel? could he get colleagues to support a complicated and expensive expedition to test the theory? these are radical fears for him. -- some relativity -- he does have some success. and just as he was making progress convincing his colleagues to support him in this expedition, eddington found himself in danger of being pulled from the observatory. the war at this point had killed so many men -- as a quaker, he would have refused to fight. he was a conscientious objector and conscientious objection was not a legally allowed status. but there was little guidance on what would happen who claims this objection to the war. he was essentially the only one in the scientific community. the vast majority of scientists agreed to working on technical projects related to the war. so it was essentially unprecedented. and what was going to happen to addington was most places by conscientious objection. these were terrible places -- conscientious objectors were spies, many of them died in the camps. so eddington did not want the camps and continue to work on relativity. he had to appear in front of a tribunal to justify his claims and explain why he should be able to continue to work on science. one of his major difficulties was getting people to understand that he was both a scientist and a person of religious faith. this seemed like a contradiction. so, many of the members of the contribution tribunal rejected

him on those grounds. he ended up getting saved at the last second because he was friends with frank -- essentially the top scientist in britain at the time. it was important for british scientific prestige to be the test. that is, if they were allowed to do the test of relativity, that would show that english shines period to german scientists. in what i think was an irony, was eddington allowed to do this pacifist exhibition on the gro for -- so edd intrigued by the e the clips of 1919, they are across the southern hemisp britain was also under b at this point by you boats. try to end the blockade bu circ planning for this f -- they are hopin go better than they had b in 1918 the german offensive runs out of steam. the kaiser's armies could not hold. eventually it became clear that the germans could not win on the battlefield. the kaiser flees to the netherlands. and a -- is declared on berlin. and on november 11th, the next day, we have silence. there is a journal entry on that day and it's a very short century. he says class was canceled. and einstein gleefully watches the collapse of the military state that he had been resisting for years. and the politics that has caused so much trouble during the war was suddenly -- under this new republic. he says he is enjoying the reputation of any approachable socialist. and forming the opinion that i could brace their fall. funny world. in fact, berlin is something of a scary place immediately after the end of the war. and

einstein finds himself climbing over barricades. he has to negotiate for being held hostage by revolutionaries. and in the regime for a dramatic kind of action in the freedom after the war. so, it's important to emphasize here -- even though there's an armistice that is the fighting -- there is no peace treaty, so the british -- so, einstein is still struggling at this point -- he can still -- with the scientific allies and other countries. when the british --

the blockade would-be -- of making things as difficult as possible for germany, so that they can get the best conditions they can -- once the armistice comes on, finds himself working frantically because, suddenly, at the end of 1918, it's going to take months to get to the southern hemisphere -- and they couldn't do any of the preparations that they had to during the war because, amongst other things, they couldn't get the materials and labor because of wartime restrictions. and they were going to have to leave -- to make it to where they needed to

go. for the observations. to get a government grant for this -- which was quite extraordinary, given the financial situation at that time. and the decision was made to send to expeditions. just in case there was bad weather at one of the sites. so, one team would be sent to -- and brazil, and the other team -- would be sent to the island of -- off the coast of africa. each team would take with them special cameras to take photographs quickly of the -- during the eclipse. in particularly, a astros graphic, a type of

telescope -- and the way you would do an observation, a technique well-established at this point -- is you get to the path of totality, that is where the eclipse is going to be, and you essentially build and emergency observatory, wherever that happened to be. -- and then the cameras are sort of on the right side of the image here, in the back -- and then in the front, there's a round mirror there -- and its job is to reflect an image of the -- and that's driven by a clock -- capture the image without any motion or blur. -- they would get a -- and then, the stars around the sun -- they could

compare to what the stars were supposed to look like when the sun wasn't there. and then they couldn't measure how much the sun's gravity had distorted the position of the stars. and they actually predicted this -- how much the stars should have moved on the photographic -- one 16th of a millimeter. a millimeter is very tiny, if you're not used to metric measurements -- so, that's less than one 1007 inch. so, a very small amount. and so, many critics of the expedition at the time said that's too small to measure. he said no, astronomers measure -- it's not

easy, but it's a perfectly -- you should have confidence in our measurements. so, addington sort of works up the mathematics -- and the way addington presents it is -- einstein's theory predicts that the amount -- is 1. 7 five -- and then, for comparison, addington says -- has a theory of gravity to. and if we use newton's theory of gravity, then the reflection should be about -- should be a significant amount less -- and then, the third possibility is, there's nothing at all. no deflection at all -- so, at some point during the preparations for the expedition -- explaining these three possibilities to a guy named hotting him, who's going to be a technician to go along the expedition, keep the machines

running. -- got it into his head that, given these two possibilities, the bigger the deflection the better. if we kept double the einstein -- even better. -- and you will have to come home alone. even as addington and dyson are working very hard from -- they're also working hard to -- about the expedition -- so, when they came back, months later, with the results -- eager and ready to hear about this titanic battle -- between i-stein and newton. -- this intellectual battle. -- addington hops on one of the first passenger ships -- he notes how strange it is to be outside -- normal in the uk -- large portions of meat -- -- he has never been to principe -- this is a long time before -- prince of pay is a little speck of an island in the middle of the ocean -- a big mountain in the middle. it's part of the porsche gaze empire. and what it was known for at the time -- it was covered in cocoa plantations that sold cocoa through chocolate factories back in britain. -- the workers at those cocoa plantations are the ones who carry the equipment and set it up -- everything was set up by may 16th, two weeks before the eclipse happened -- begin practicing -- very complicated system stop a half to operate, essentially, in the dark, during the eclipse. and there is no room forever. there's no do-over. they have to make sure -- that the experiment works perfectly. it's hard to overemphasize how nerve racking the last few days before the eclipse were. years of planning, months of journeying, weeks of physically and mentally grueling preparation, and this is all without knowing whether the sky will be clear at the

critical moment. one cloud could ruin everything. and in fact, in brazil, on the day of the eclipse, the day started off cloudy but then cleared at the right moment. -- in principle, a the, the day was not just cloudy but there is a gigantic rainstorm. and local dignitaries watched -- looking for a break in the clouds. and as the rain and, a couple of hours before the eclipse, the clouds remain. -- began five seconds after 2:13 pm -- this machine like photography process -- without knowing -- and indeed, addington described -- that he wasn't able to watch the actual event. there was a marvelous spectacle above and as the photographs accurately reveals, -- 100,000 miles of -- we are conscious only of the weird -- broken by the calls of the observers and the beat of the metro gnome -- and by the

end of the eclipse, 16 glass photographic plates got covered in a box -- showing the secrets of the stars -- and indeed, right after -- before they were turned -- addington telegraphed -- back in london. -- in africa, addington has to develop the photographs and plates -- it turns out that most of them are cloudy. 16 showed the stars they needed -- and the question was, where those an off? so, addington spends each day -- hunched over the photographs with a special tool called a micro matter -- and what he was looking for was, as we said, large by astronomers standards, but tiny by -- and then the measurement had to be reduced. that is, mathematically analyzed -- the illuminate optical effects. before they became real data. -- how fast you can calculate things -- an

enormous amount of time. and in the end, he actually writes home to his mother -- one good play that i measured -- and i think that i have got a little confirmation -- at some, point in the first week of june 1919, he put down the pen he had been using, he rested his head in his hands, -- this was three years after he received -- a year after he had been freed from the construction tribunal -- he finally had -- he knew that einstein's theory -- and the new outlook of scientific thought. he later calls this

the greatest moment of his life. so, despite that solemnity, he did not -- he turn to cutting him -- cutting him, you won't have to go home alone. this was just a matter -- he wanted to know -- -- back in britain, addington literal months of tedious -- and the results from principled were calculated to be 1. 6 one -- comfortably close to einstein's prediction of 1. 7 five. and once the results were in hand, addington and dyson did some tests -- presenting the data the two private audiences -- in fact, it went well. and the -- scheduled a joint meeting of the royal society -- to present the results publicly. now, addington sense words of the results in the netherlands -- he still can't communicate directly to einstein. and then -- and einstein is delighted. and einstein showed this the to

anyone who -- for the next couple of months. even when he was bedridden. there are various versions of the story. i like this one. one of his students -- who he show the telegram to the -- within 30 adam, i explained -- i'm perturbed, he remarked, i knew that theory was correct. -- what would you have said if there was no confirmation? he replied, i would have to pity our dear god. the theory was correct all the same. -- he's a little more humble and a little more critical. the test of his theory -- this is him writing to one of his mentors. -- -- thus, the intimate union within the beautiful -- is once again proven -- as he said many times -- but it has been official nonetheless -- endurable -- now, the public presentation of the results, back in london -- the people present at the presentation was a mathematician, marc white had, who just cited -- the whole atmosphere -- if there was a

dramatic quality in the very staging -- and in the background, a picture of newton to remind us the greatest of -- more than two centuries -- a personal interest -- -- and announced that -- prepared to say that there can be no doubt -- a very definite result has been attained, light was deflected -- the observation -- described the expedition -- and -- j. j. thompson, who i should say was not a fan of einstein's, announced that this is the most important result in connection with the theory of -- and it was fitting that it should be announced -- sustained that einstein's reasoning -- -- as a result of one of the highest achievements in human thought. and the following conversation

among the scientists -- relativity -- one person rose and pointed, literally hanging over addington's head -- very carefully modifying the theory of that -- the next day, -- presented the greatest scientific -- in fact, they actually shared -- upcoming observations -- einstein versus newton -- and remember that this was the first time that anyone in britain had heard of einstein. and it was presented exactly as eddington wanted,

who repudiated all of the work -- a man of liberal tendencies, one of the signatories to the protest against the german manifesto. -- germany's part in the war. soon, the new york times picked up on the articles. the lights all askew in the heavens. and this can be -- first einstein -- he comes out of nowhere to the front page of the times. and eddington begins to work tireless. he gives public lectures and interviews -- by

cooperation -- and everyone wanted to pick talk about einstein. heading to -- all eddington has been working about your theories, it's the best possible thing that could have happened to scientific revelations. i do not anticipate -- but there is a big -- frame of mind among scientific man and that is even more important than -- -- but things have turned out fortunately, the solidarity of british and german scientists. but this wasn't just searching. it was that einstein and

eddington worked hard to portray this as a repair despite terrible years of the war. einstein praises the wonderful tradition in the science that they should devote their time and energy to. and this is during the war. this is the moment when einstein becomes famous, literally around the world. the beginning of what he calls the relativity surface, hounded for autographs. mail piles up at

his home. everyone wants to learn more about this mysterious sage that has turned change the universe. -- today in germany i am college ermine and the scientists. and in england i have come to be represented as a -- and i shall become a switch to for the germans and a german man for the germans -- it's worth noting that not all aspects of einstein's fame was positive. -- as a jewish internationalist. specifically with zionism -- and eventually left the country under the nazis and went to the u.s. as a russian jew. -- squarely due to the timing and context of the war. it is described by rutherford, a great british scientist of the time, that the war had just ended the complacency of the victorian era. suddenly, a -- by a german scientist had been confirmed and sent by a british astronomer. struck a responsive chord -- scientific faith

during -- period of war. but an image of scientist -- and it's a contrast that is so striking. scientific beauty and world peace at the time when civilization itself seemed to be in peril. so the war and pacifist like einstein -- forge these intricate, fragile networks. without this network, the relativity revolution would never have happened. the theory didn't have many applications and without the war relativity would have been just one more scientific theory. without the war, einstein would be one more name for a board schoolchildren to memorize. instead his name was now an idea, an icon, personification of everything kids want to be. this was einstein and his friends, not just einstein's geniuses making. thank you very much. it's been a pleasure. you may email me or go to my podcast website. >> spectacular. matt, thank you so much. i know i was laughing out loud at some of the comments. so i fully anticipate that those across the nation and from around the world were doing the same thing. so thank

you all, again for joining us. again, if you are joining us, do please add your questions. in that q&a section. if you are appearing either on the linda hall library facebook page or the national world war i museum and memorial facebook page, please feel free to add your questions into the chat. we have educators in both organizations who are there to moderate. the first question actually came from tim and he asked a question, how did it come that einstein had no talent in mathematics?

>> so this is actually einstein being self deprecating. you can find a quote of him saying he wasn't very good at math. in fact, unsigned as fine and mathematics at school. that anecdote about him skipping math class wasn't because he was bad at math because he hated going to classes. he describes himself as being not a good mathematician, he is comparing himself to literal a sly literally the greatest

mathematician in the world at the time. so in explaining why he has to go talk to -- he is explaining and saying i don't understand mathematics, i need help. so he's actually very good at math but not just in comparison to them. >> from tom winter -- npr science friday reported that the historical study about a barber who brings to einstein the idea that gravitation could effect light and courage. is that something we have the

opportunity to balance out and be a signing sounding board for the truth of media today? science, history, media, it's all coming into one today. >> [laughs] that was great. i didn't hear that episode so i don't know the specific question. but there is a cottage industry of finding the earlier versions of einstein's predictions. in fact, it was the case that way back in the 18th century there were people he proposed that nuanced theory could affect light. if you accept that idea, there are people who make similar predictions to just the general idea that gravity can bend light before einstein. i should say that a warning i want to put here. there is a group of far-right anti-semitic critics

of einstein in the 1920s and 1930s, he used his claim to make the case that einstein plagiarize relativity. that's not true it all and it is just an anti-semitic attack. >> from benjamin, he wanted to know, what was the results of the solar eclipse study that was done in brazil? >> that's a really good question and in fact i passed over that for a time. so it's quite interesting. and it's like the one that they have an africa. there are technical problems at the last second. so it produces photographs that at first glance are really bad. and by everybody -- by first glance i mean that the

scientists that look at them -- they had been kind of -- there was a problem where you can subtract the problem and figure out what the problem would have been -- if you do that, then you do get a result similar to einstein's prediction. and the other telescope they brought as a backup at the last section. and those are smack on with einstein's prediction. so it's actually an epic tale of near disaster. >> i feel like in your area of expertise, the history of science, it's probably just full of the near disastrous moments. >> [laughs] >>, was einstein qualified to carry out this type of test? >> the answer is a full-on no.

but einstein was a theorist. he was good at principles and figuring out what was going on and making predictions. but he was not good at going and doing the observations and testing. so that's a completely different skill set. einstein realizes this immediately. this is one of the things he realizes he has to do. assign someone who is qualified to do the test. and there is a framework -- the frameworks boss won't let him lead. so einstein is tearing his hair out on whether he is qualified to do the test. but it's really important, actually, that

einstein is not involved with the expedition. >> a very specific question coming to us from guy raider. he spoke about a clockwork mechanism during the eclipse expeditions. could you this tell us more is about the relationship a test could between you share astronomers, more about physicists and clock makers? is that is that a strong diagram a venn. diagram? >> it's that's a great question. it's it's so a unique then diagram. happens that both astronomers and so astronomers physicists really and physicists, rely on clock they really rely makers well into the on clock 20th century. makers. because because clock

clock makers are the makers are the people people who can that can make really precise most perfect instruments instruments, particularly robust instruments.. but and so, what typically happens, and this is a good example, is that astronomers and physicists have advanced degrees but along the lines of what we were talking about, don't necessarily have the hands-on skills to operate the machinery. and so then there are other employees at observatories who actually have to operate the equipment in a way that people with the advanced degrees cannot. that's an interesting intersection, einstein, of the venn diagram. and his first job out of college was an assistant at the royal observatory. so he does learn how to operate the machinery in a way that physicists like dyson are not able to. >> from robinson -- after the 1919 eclipse, what were the divisions in the scientific community with respect to accepting relativity?

>> this is an interesting question. there is a real tension. einstein's theory of relativity was generally accepted everywhere. for the most part, everyone who looks at their data and the actual photographs agrees that there is a reflection of light and that it matches einstein's predictions. and maybe there is an alternative explanation, they say, that is not so weird. but then and one of the interesting one of the interesting things that happens things that happens is is -- that astronomers continue to test continuing to test einstein's very einstein's reason though it's theory even though it generally accepted already is generally so accepted. so, for instance, for instance, american american astronomers. test astronomers go and test this again is in the this again in the 1920s 1920s. at a much much better better precision precision--. now, but but, what i find what i find interesting is that

interesting is they they do the test do -- even even though they kind though, they kind of know what the of know with the answer is answer is going to going to be. be, no no one expects one expects it einstein -- to be ever and throughout the -- at this point. 20th century, and throughout the continuing to this day, we 20th century and continue to test continuing to einstein's theory, today, we continue even to test though no einstein's theory one doubts that. it is even though no and amazing. we doubts it. it's spend billions of amazing, we spend dollars on billions of projects to test dollars in relativity projects even though of we know we science to test are not going to get an relativity, answer that is wrong. even though we know i don't know why the what community is quite result we so obsessed will get. i don't with trying to know why the scientific test. community is so obsessed with this. but they are. >> we have we a lot of really good have a lot of really questions. good questions. i i want to be want to be sure sure to honor to honor everyone's everyone's time. time. i'm going to ask one more. but before i do that, would you be willing to stay on a little bit longer so that we can explore some more of these. i would like to hear some of the answers. >> sure. >> the last question comes to us from stacey. i know your next book is a history of scientific predictions at the end of the world. can you say a little bit more about this project of yours? it sounds very exciting. >> i certainly could. i wish i

knew more about it. it's a new project, right? so the question that struck me about this was that once upon a time, predictions about the end of the world was something that you asked profits and priess. it was a religious kind of prediction. but nowadays, we ask scientists about the apocalypse instead. they have a lot to describe. i'm interested in how that came to be and how these scientists take on the duty of having to predict the end of the world. and at the moment einstein had a particular kind of prediction, and that is the idea that an asteroid will hit the earth and destroy us all, the same way that -- describe the dinosaurs. when i find interesting about

this is that when i was a kid, this was a ridiculous idea. it was literally laughed out. but nowadays, we have an office of planetary defense. how did that come to be? how did we get such a change. for saucer specific problem. dr. matthew stanley, on behalf of the -- museum and memorial -- and the linda hall library, with whom we have been so pleased to partner on this and many lectures, thank you so very much. if you are interested in the future or the demise of our future, as doctor stanley was just talking about, do pay attention to the website that you see right there. start listening to his podcast. what's the f. com. and, if you like history and science, do take a look. we've got it on sale on our website, the world war dot o archie. if you

haven't picked up the book yet, and learn more up by reading the book, einstein's war -- always support your local library. that's another great way to do it. and if you want to stay on, please do. and for those of you who need to leave, thank you so much for your time. it has been one of your most valuable commodities. we truly appreciate learning with you. all right -- there are so many other really great questions that are -- let me -- no, go for it. >> -- interesting question about einstein's relationship to other socialists, like h g wells -- how einstein escaped germany -- i don't know specifically that wells was involved in that or not. einstein was actually traveling abroad when not nazis came to

power and they sacked his home. so, einstein just never goes back. i think einstein -- wells helped einstein -- and then einstein comes of moves around and ends up in new jersey. and then, he -- so, it's quite extraordinary how -- international socialism helped get people out of germany and the access powers. spends the first few years of his time in the united states, trying to do the same kind of thing -- people helped him get out of germany -- he spends all of this time writing letters of recommendation and making phone calls, trying to make as many people of jewish heritage -- and such, out from underneath the nazis -- and then, i should say, all those refugees that come to the united states, sort of on einstein's watch, those are the people that built the

atomic bomb. it's an amazing kind of thing that the persecution of the nazis gives rise to whatever actually makes america win the war and become a superpower. it's a wonderful lesson and why that's not a good thing to do. >> that also comes a little bit full circle -- our audience -- h g wells was actually the one who coined the term -- more on our youtube channel. charles keller is associated with the h g well society -- lecture that he has done there. again, this intersection of history, and literature, and science -- it's a wonderful space to be. nancy vote, i hope i said your last name correctly. what happened to the astronomers that went to russia? >> interesting. so, there --

they were arrested as spies. and you can't blame the russians for that because they set up their equipment right over the russian naval base -- which made sense when there wasn't a war going on because then you can use -- but once the war begins, -- so, they are arrested, whether or not they are tortured is unclear. they are released in a prisoner of war trade -- first german prisoners to come back. but then, with their equipment, stays in russia for almost 100 years after that. it doesn't come back until after the collapse of the soviet union. so, the germans couldn't have read on the test even if they wanted to. medicine -- that is you have a very specific question on how many -- this is actually a pretty important question. another example of hand waving for presentation

purposes. -- it's actually more -- a bend in the light after -- past the edge of the sun -- the diagram i had -- actually completely right -- people get confused by that because there are not used to thinking about information in that way. but if you're not used to thinking -- that's confusing. but you're quite right. and i'm happy to be corrected on that. who else do we have? >> -- and thinking about the anti german, anti semitic rhetoric, could you speak more about the anxieties of

scientists during this time? they would have to capitulate to cut popular discourse -- scientists? have to capitulate to popular discourse? in the same vein, do you notice any similarities with the pandemic today, the public and -- fabulous question -- and again, i hope i'm saying your name correctly. >> that is a terrific question. -- we have -- and i put some of these quotes out here. these really things that -- german scientists and french scientists -- and one way to read those statements was that the scientists didn't really believe that, but they need to say things like that because they are under pressure. and that's a possibility. we do have private letters of many of these astronomers, as well. so, we may have some better sense of what was actually going on in their head. and in the

british case, which i know better than the german or french cases, is that they actually -- they were not feeling like they needed to change what they had to say in terms of political or social pressure. -- and they, for instance, they laid plans for after the war, setting up new international -- where they wouldn't have to deal with the germans -- -- a particularly interesting case. he actually doesn't make anti german political statements during the war. but his personalquite anti. correspondence shows that he was actually quite anti german. he is upset that his son is not old enough to go fight. he really hopes that the germans lose the war, and our,

punished for a terribly. but then, he goes along with addington on this interesting plan, which could've been a total disaster along the way. so, it's very interesting to see how a scientist navigates the sort of treacherous political and social waters, while also trying to hold what they see as the proper way to be a scientist. and in terms of the comparison to the modern day, and in particular, the struggle that scientists have had talking to, sort of, the general public during that. i think one of the lessons we should take away from einstein and addington story, that was an era when it's not so much that people trust the science more. although i think that is probably true. but rather, that scientists who are more concerned with talking to the public, and making clear, making legible, their ideas in a way that people could

understand, right? so addington, really takes years off of doing his technical work and astrophysics, to help people understand relativity. and that's a set of skills that i think not many scientists today have, and the reason for that is that we don't train scientists in these skills. we train people to publish papers and one experiments and that kind of thing. we don't teach them how to communicate well. and i think one of the important lessons over the last year and a half was that it will be really nice, if we took some time out from training our scientists in teaching them how to actually teach, how to talk, two known scientists out there. >> all right, i already know one of the soundbites that's gonna be coming from the top right here. there are two more questions, but first, it's about a specific date, if you might and know it, can you tell us about it? >> let me google that. >> google exists for things on

matt line -- >> you remember -- >> the whole wikipedia, august 21st, 1940. >> is that your answer? >> and then, that well brings us back to questions about media, and reporting. >> i should say, the media, the story of the 1990 eclipse as a media event was a wonderful way to think about. and there is a sense in which the sort of the first big media event of the post war period, it's radio and international telegraph lines. so, everybody is stunned at how quickly they've been used, spread around the world. nobody more than einstein. he doesn't -- he hears about this one reporters show up at his door, and he is like, why do you people care about what i have to say?

much less, much less following him around then asking questions. now in terms of the accuracy of the reporting, this is kind of interesting. so, there is the original story in the times which in an important sense is kind of planted by eddington bison. as they said, he was recruited as a partner to come to the announcement of the results. so, that's pretty accurate. but then, the times just gets -- the new york times gets the times of london article, and then they write their own article based on that reading just on the article. they are not talking to eddington as much as two einstein, so inaccuracies begin to creep in. the sort of famously, i don't know if the times is still sharing my screen here. but, i'll go back to the article. so, lights all askew in the heavens. metal signs going over except eclipse expeditions. and then, a book for 12

weisman. and then, in the article, they say more no more than 12 people could understand it. that's totally fabricated by that times. that's not true at all. i mean, a lot of people understood relativity by this point. but interestingly, well, actually, some variation of, it even today. and only for people to understand einstein's theory. no, for people in the building i've been in understand einstein's theory. and then, the times article gets picked up by other newspapers, so as you can kind of track inaccuracies creeping in this time so some of the inaccuracies include things like einstein's nationality, which i think is a particularly interesting one that people began to forgot. the fact that he is jewish, and of drops off the map fairly quickly as well. and the two expeditions, one to africa, and the other to brazil, get completed, like, quickly. and the actual numerical

predictions disappear, essentially, almost instantly. so, goodness only knows what happened, had they existed -- ery much. >> dr. matthew stanley, thank you so very much. it has been a true delight to be in conversation with you this evening. and it is a to light -- delight at the national -- and at the london hall library to stand in that space of trying to keep an inaccuracies away from both history and science and to be bringing conversations like this to you in your homes right now, if you're watching live, and in the future. you have enjoyed this and you want to share and you can't you can find it on our youtube page -- the easiest way to get their is to go to the world war dot o r g and on the upper hand side, you'll see

that youtube channel side, and you can share from their later on. if you want to find out more, pick up the book. or be following along with doctor stanley at any of his other spaces where he is teaching. again, doctor stanley, thank you so very much -- >> thanks so much for having me. this was really delightful. >> and thank you all for being here. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> american history tv, saturdays on c-span two, exploring the people and events. to tell the american story. at 8 pm eastern on lectures in history, kermit roosevelt, university of pennsylvania law professor, and descendant of theodore roosevelt, argues that modern america choices it's political sentiments to lincoln and the reconstruction era, rather than the founding fathers. and at 9:30 pm eastern on the presidency. historian david patricia looks at depression era america,

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