♪ ♪ ♪ >> weekends on c-span two are an intellectual feast. every saturday, american history tv documents america story. and on sunday, book tv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span two comes from these television companies and more, including mediacom. >> the world changed in the midst. internet traffic soar, and we never sl down. schools and businesses wen virtual, and we powered a new reality. because in media come we build to keep you ahead. >> media come, along with these television companies, supports c-span 2 as a public service. r who is been a dear friend of mine >> well it's such a pleasure to be able to introduce dr. halle, a mayor who's been a dear friend of mine for decades, now,

we are catching up a little bit on the terrace earlier, trying to calculate the years. it was back in the 19 hundreds when we first met one another. isn't that amazing how that sounds now? holly doctor mayor is now a professor from the mcconnell to college and a graduate school of liberal arts at duquesne university in my hometown of pittsburgh, pennsylvania. where she taught for many decades. she did two stints as a chair of the history department there, after joining duquesne and after receiving your ph.d. at the college. she also served as visiting harold k johnson chair of military history at the u.s. army war college out in pennsylvania, the car lock barracks. and is currently, during this academic here, at west point where she is serving as the visitor professor of history. she is also in a commission,

and served in the u.s. army reserves so she stands a long time ago, she's recognizable as a military person, still. she is the author of a whole slew of articles about the military and history, historical, i'm sorry, the military political social, intersections of history in the area of the american revolution in the colonial era. her first book belonging to the army camp followers in community, during the american revolution, still in print, and absolutely an essential text for studying this period of time. but she is here to talk tonight about her hot off the press. i think this is maybe, literally, hot off the press, you book, congress's own. the canadian regiment, the american union. canada, what does canada have to do with the american revolution. so, please join me in warmly

welcoming doctor holly. [applause] >> thank you so much. it is wonderful to be here with all of you and to share in this community of history and the revolution in particular, and to of course examine this particular, very unusual regimen, or an uncommon regiment for an uncommon revolution, as we could also say for eight. so, i'm starting off, and i just want to point out that is an image. it's a painting from don trone, that's on the cover of my book. so, i figured i might as well say kudos to him as well for helping illustrate my book, and as well as of course being here in many other, his other illustrations and paintings in about a month that you will be able to see. so, well worth it, wonderful. so, with congress's own, i wanted to talk a few things about the regiment in particular. and then, actually spend more

time talking about sergeant major john h. hopkins, who was the person who introduced me to this regiment through his writings in that journal that i found at the historical society of pennsylvania. so, i want to take a step further to talk about this with you, and i want to make sure i'm going in the right direction here. to pick up and talk about the congress's own regiment, which actually went through about three or four different names through its lifetime. as this uncommon regiment, it was first formed, actually, in january of 1776, authorized by the continent of congress for moses hazen, as the colonel, and lieutenant colonel edward antill as the second in command. and it was commissioned as the second canadian regiment. so, it brings us up to this point about why a canadian regiment. when i asked students at the

time, did you know that canada was involved? well, yeah, there was an invasion. the americans lost. they had to retreat from quebec. you know, by june of 76, they're gone. and that was the end of canada. well, no, not really. not by any means in here. but while the american invading force was up in canada, it was already starting to recruit canadians to join in this rebellion, certainly, the continental congress was sending out declarations to the canadians, especially the french canadians, essentially saying, come join us, rebel with us, you know? and you might think it goes back to the enemy, my enemy is my friend. and so, the french canadians at one point have been certainly the enemies of most of the new englanders and others who have been fighting colonial wars with the french and their indian allies through a series of imperial conflicts. but at this point, it was, let's invite the canadians in, because we truly want this to be a continental rebellion,

that, let us have a true continental congress with canadian representatives. let us have a continental army which includes canadians as well. as we invite others to join us in what was first, of course, a rebellion, a defense of the rights of americans, or these continental provincials in the early part. and then, after july of 76, ultimately, a revolution for the independence of the country itself. so, they were joining this, and then, the first regiment, or the first canadian was by james livingston, who had already been in action. i got the first canadian, and moses hazen got the second canadian. so, to give you a little bit of background on moses hazen, he had actually been in the rangers during the seven years'war. and then, he had actually gotten a commission with the 44th regiment of foot, which ultimately led him to retire in the montreal region and right

around saint-jean in canada itself. so, i'd like to point this out, here was an american who did get a british commission as opposed to washington who did not. and hazen actually was really, really torn about which way he was going to go in this conflict. he was getting a pension from the british government for his service during the seven years'war. he was right there on the borderlands, and if you can see it up there in canada, up along saint-jean, just south of montreal. would he give up that pension? would he give up those lands to join in this american rebellion? and at first, he wasn't sure. he was really on the fence in those borderlands which way he's gonna go. ultimately, in the end, of course, as we know, he decided to join with the americans, with the privy, so that he could create his own regiment, and that he had command of that regiment, the second canadian regiment in this case. so, hazen is not the person,

though, that i really want to talk about. i want to continue on with this regiment on a few other points. second canadian was then in the retreat from canada, and at that point, it had lost probably about half of its recruits on that retreat down to crown point. and then, for tech congregant ultimately into albany. through the summer of 76, there was a true question as to whether or not these canadian regiments would continue. canada was not choosing to join in this rebellion. so, why would you have this other canadian regiment? the original idea behind it was that it would be like all the other colonies that became states, is that it would have its own iteration of a regiment. but if it is not joining the rebellion, what are we doing with this regiment? ultimately you, what happened is that congress, by september of 76th, went back to hasten, and he just really pushed for this, and set this, yes, will

we authorize your second canadian regiment. that you can recruit among the canadian refugees that were up around albany. and certainly recruit those that had come with the american forces to ticonderoga and the like. but we're also authorizing you to recruit among all of the states. to so, here is another unique factor about this second canadian regiment, is that it's allowed to recruit elsewhere. well, this brings up the next point. how many people from elsewhere would actually want to join the canadian regiment, if they are from pennsylvania, new jersey, maryland, connecticut, rhode island, which is where they're trying to recruit? and in the middle of that, certainly by the end of 76, going into 77, we see that in the advertisements going out, the recruiting going out, for congress's own regiment. this is not something necessarily that congress itself had authorized.

it seems to have come out of the regiment at south. i think it actually probably came from lieutenant colonel edward antill, who was part of this. because he was more of a thinker, i think, that most this hazen was quite frankly. i see hazen as the pugilist. he was always, really rather irritating as an individual from what i can see. i think his commanding officer saw that, certainly, general knocks at the end of it said that this was a man who was blessed with one of the most obstinate temper seat ever sane. but it was the kind of temper that meant this regiment continued inaction through the rest of the war. but given this, it starts going out for recruiting for congress's own, so you can see what's going on here. you can't recruit for second canadian among all of them, but you can, for congress's own, guard, here, it's got elite status. this sounds really good. this is better than just simply what the first pennsylvania, really, the first virginia, why not congress's own?

and they did tremendously well. this regiment was authorized 1000 men. so, much bigger than the common continental infantry regiment. but it was authorized at 1000, and by the spring of 77, it was hitting close to 900 men and had enlisted in this regiment. now, they all stay? absolutely not. seat in the records, some of these guys joined, put the cockade in their cap, got their bounty money, and headed off. so, we've got that. they don't all stay, but it was tremendously successful recruiting under congress's own. and unfortunately, this regiment also didn't always get along well with others. it got a rather informal reputation and what it was doing, and congress came back and said, you're not supposed to be calling it congress's own. so, what is it supposed to be called? back to second canadian? no, that's not doing

recruiting. they tended to keep going, which was rather traditional by hazen's name. so, it was hazen's regiment for much of this war. but i also noted, and in some of the rosters, that the captains in this regiment put little c o ours under the rosters, yeah, congress's own regiment in here. they knew how they were being recruited and how they were doing the recruiting. and so, they were incredibly successful under that name of congress's own. and continued to do that through the rest of the war, even after 1781, when james livingston's regiment was demobilized. anybody left over from that, as well as other foreign recruits and soldiers, joined hastens regiment. and it became known as the canadian old regiment. but let me tell you, that's not the name that's in the pension accounts. hazen's regiment, congress's own, is usually what you see.

they picked up on that identity. so, this leads me into the other one that i want to talk about, this is how we get sergeant major john h. hutton 's. it's that they are recruiting among all of these other camps and garrison's up and the new york area. they're sending, recruiting officers down here into pennsylvania, into these other states, into the point where we've got soldiers from 11 of the states in the regiments. the only ones we don't have as i haven't found anybody from south carolina or georgia in this regiment. but they've got somebody from every other state. so, we've got this tremendously unique regiment that was called canadian. it was called congress's own. but in some ways, it's a microcosm of the continental army itself. is that within its companies, and many of these companies who

were segregated by states, they would certainly at least two of the companies that were still french canadian, with officers who are still talking french, with their soldiers, with all of these other recruits. so, sergeant major john h. hopkins, from what i could, see had actually first enlisted in the 76, in pennsylvania unit. and had served through it. and then, in early january of 77, he was a four reenlistment. so, many of the soldiers who had enlisted in 76 were on short term enlistments. the army going into the 77 was again, trying to recruit an army at this point. and john h. hopkins realest it in congress's own, as he re-enlisted, because he also had service time, and i think also because he was so literate. he was a -- he was first given a role in enlistment, and then very quickly within weeks was made a

sergeant of the regiment. so, john h. hopkins, who is he? i think he is from philadelphia. some of this, i won't say full of assumptions, i'm following clues. i spent probably way too much time trying to find this guy in the records, not always the easiest person to find. but from what i could understand, first of all, by reading his journal is that he kept talking about his typographical brethren. he talked about printing offices. he talked about newspapers. he was holding newspapers and books in his knapsack's. in fact, when you look at that journal over there, they've got it on the page where he's talking about what he lost, when he shocked his knapsack, when he was running before those british islanders to get away at brand wine. and, then part of it when you look in there, he's talking about the papers and the quills and the books and the other

things that they all had in his knapsack. doso we've got this point thate was affiliated with printing in some form. so i went a little further and trying to do research and actually found a runaway ad for an apprentice that ran away from david sellers printing shop here in philadelphia. this was back in 58. and you just go, is this the same guy? is john hopkins, it's printing, it's pennsylvania. you know, yeah -- it's -- it's very likely, unfortunately i couldn't nail it down for sure because he didn't say in his journal anywhere that he was a runaway apprentice. i wonder why. there was this and of course you get this little hint in this, looking at hopkins in his story is that he had run away from -- david seller was the partner of hall. david hall who had been the partner of benjamin franklin,

who was the most notorious runaway apprentice of all, right? so you're going, oh, he's following that kind of tradition in some form or another. well, from what it appears, he must of come back and served out his term as an apprentice or found something else because he is back here in pennsylvania, and in philadelphia. but obviously not finding a job for his own independent shop. and thus, there he was enlisting in the continental army during the revolution. in this thing. we followed him in but it also made sense why he would be us sergeant and why he would be a sergeant major. this is somebody who can keep the records and he was. he was writing some of the orderly books. we have proofs of this individual. but the big part was that journal. of course, i looked at that journal and it's wonderful. and i think about the material resources when you can touch this, and i was, and your

hearing this and going, 250 years ago, he was writing in this. so from his pen and ink to my eyes, to see what is going on in his world at that time. he is speaking to me through the writing and i intern am trying to speak to you through his writing as well, to introduce you a bit to his world and what he saw in this revolution. so to take it from there. again, he is there in a regiment that had probably close to 1900 men serving in it over the course of the war so again, unique and tremendously large of a unit in there. so i wanted to take it a step further in his journal in this, and we can come back to talking about this certainly to answer your questions about the regiment itself, where it served, and how.

but what i really wanted to pick up on in here is that coups country campaign. that's not as familiar to people looking at the revolution, like a canadian regiment is not so familiar. but one of the great things in hawkins's journal is when he talks about what he sees as he is marching through this country. who is he talking to, who are some of the people. he is looking at the community that is becoming a nation. and he is seeing what is similar and different as he is marching through it. so this brings me back to this point that i wanted to point out here is, i'm picking up on another scholars work, benedict anderson, who was talking about imagined political communities. in this. and he premised that a nation is an imagined political community because the members of even the smallest nation will never know most of their

fellow members. they will never meet them or even hear of them. yet, in the minds of each lives the image of their communion. that image of the communion can exist at the same time through shared experiences, overtime, through events like this. so we are part of that imagined community that is part of the nation. and we are doing it through him. so right now, as we work through his words, we are part of the imagined community of that developing nation in the 1770's going through the 1780's. so we are sitting here in philadelphia, here in 2021, in the philadelphia that he was living in 1776 that he marched through on the way to yorktown, if you will -- actually, he sailed through it, in 1781. and the like.

but we are part of that image and community, we are part of the image and community right now as we are all finally getting to see each other. but then there are those of them who are over there, over zoom, so i say hi to you, you are part of this imagined community! we are all together to look at this particular history. but the other part that benedict anderson had mentioned in here is when we formed these communities, he talked about journeys or pilgrimages between times and statuses and places. so again, we are part of that journey. but these are meaning creating experiences. that create the experience of the imagined community. so i'd like us to consider to that when we look at the continental army as it is marching through the united states, the new united states, they are creating this community. and it's not all imagined. they are actually experiencing it. they are actually seeing it,

they are actually meeting these people. so here is this philadelphia that is meeting people up at massachusetts and new york. and up into the coups country that is vermont and new hampshire. he is meeting them and he is making these distinctions about are they like us or unlike us. are they with us or are they not with us in some form? and we expand that to all of this thousands and tens of thousands who are part of that army at that time, taking what is imagined and making it real. in some form or another. in>> >> we come back to that reality as we look at hawkins. so i wanted to pick it up, especially in this one aspect. coos county campaign. this was in 1779. so even before this, a year before this in 78, there was talk about a possible other invasion into canada. general lafayette was given charge of that possible

invasion in 78. he said let's move up and go for it. certainly hazen was gonna hope for this. yes, let's get back to canada, i have my states back there. i want to get my lands back, the rest of it. and it went, nowhere. that was the end of it in 78. they could not get the supplies, they could not get the support. quite frankly, general washington was not real fond of the idea either. he had other things he needed to do in 78 instead of worrying about canada. so it was put on a backburner. then on the 6th of march 79, washington ordered hazen's regiment to move into the coups country. so at that point, hastens regiment had spent the winter in what was called putnam's falling which is outside of reading, connecticut, one of the largest encampments through this war. probably about the largest

inhabited area that point in connecticut. so it's a big town. and they were given the orders to start marching north into the coast country and eventually to build a road or cut a road from new hampshire, which is at the top there, threw into what where the new hampshire grants, also called the pretended state of vermont at that point. and to move up towards the canadian border. so this was the orders. what was the reason for it. hazen's orders, where you are to scout the area, failed a road and engage the populace. so three components to that mission. he won it hazen in particular to discover whether the inhabitants would support an expedition from coast to canada. so he said go out there and do it, especially if you're to do it with the french support which by that time america had. so he was going, you know, why

don't you go and do that. hazen is delighted to take his regiment up there to do this now what he didn't realize and what washington did not tell him, is that this was actually part of washington's greater strategy. which three fold can be seen as a strategy of disinformation out to the enemy and those who are within the colon or the state. a diversion against the enemy in canada so if they think the enemy is coming one way they might not be watching as closely in another direction and then also ultimately a bone to throw up the people like hazen who had kept harassing him, remember when he had that obstinate temper, about making innovation into canada. can you all figure why washington wanted a diversion in the spring and summer of 79? what do we got?

look a little over there to new york on that border. you may have heard of general sullivan and a campaign against the native americans into new york. to move against that enemy. wouldn't it make a lot of sense if you're sending sullivan up one way to have hayes and create a diversion in another locale? it's a faint, all right? move them in a different direction. so, hazen is delighted and he sends its troops up. and this brings us back to hawkins then. hawkins describes what he is seeing on that trek that you see listed on their. so, they're basically following the connecticut river valley, moving up into new hampshire and then across into what will be vermont. so, he describes the various towns and peoples of this track. they move out in three divisions. essentially what would've been three battalions within the

regiment itself as they saw it. moving up, first through to springfield, massachusetts. at springfield, hawkins records at daybreak on 14 april, all three divisions march out, followed by a baggage train. he records eight wagons, 21 teams. 21 teams to be pulling these wagons. those have got to be really having wagons. and they definitely are. because what is on the? loaded with spades, shovels, axes, picks, carbines, horseman swords, pistols, and other military stores. the carpenters tools, armors tools, provisions. they are out to really cut this road and they are taking all the tools with them. so think four minute what that would look like to the communities through which there

is a baggage train going with these soldiers in these three divisions. who may not have seen a lot of soldiers up to this point. but they are moving through. this is part of hazen engaging the populace. it is not just the tools to cut the road, this is, if you will, to show the flag in this area. this is a border land on this revolutionary frontier, where much of the action is beyond their but they are not forgotten. okay? we are sending troops up there to deal with issues they are worried about. and of course hazen is still hoping that he will get his lands back. so we've got that part. they've got that, and they are trailing behind their own traveling fort. if they break their tools, they can fix them. they've got that in the wagon trail as well. so again, they are marching out. we've got all these animals,

all of these wagons moving out to show the force of the continental army. and by extension, congressional authority, that they are moving on that into these hinterland's. the that's is part of creating that political community as well as sending the military up. so they started marching in hilly territory. but hawkins is looking there. where are the level roads? where is the beautiful pine tree country? where the trees are shading the road on a hot day? that's really important when you're wearing wool and your marching through this and it's warm. ? >> where are the fine houses and the farms? he looks at north hampton. what a handsome and large village though much scattered? checking it out, how does this work? but he goes the court of justice is small but eric

elegant house. outside it's very grand. so other things, pointing out how people are living. so he's praising some areas that he goes through, and he denigrates others. swanson, for instance, was despicable. okay? not good for any pr there. war pool, oh lord, war pool. he found some troops scattered, simon barnes. that poured, mean, despicable wretched town could not afford one regiment room in their dwelling houses for one night. this is the first night that our man have been under the necessity of lying in barnes on this march. so fascinating point. in this, he is revealing that as they had been marching through these communities, they had been quarters in peoples

homes. the inhabitants along this track have been welcoming these soldiers into their homes. they've not had to lay out under the stars or at that point, up to that point, in barnes. i will point out that it could not be welcoming -- he was also perfectly willing to threaten councilman along the way. that if you are not willing to give us the supplies we need, for instance flower, then we'll take it. if you don't let a stable are horses in your barns, we will then put them in any way. and we will stay there until you supply. so, again, that obstinate temper. you can be very willing to do it or we will use a little bit of

authority to give away what. that was part of it, it was interesting that the despicable one is the one makes the man sleep in the barn. these other ones with the wonderful communities are welcoming the soldiers into their homes. he was very happy to leave, that miserable was 24th of april. arrive in charleston, handsome, the small. lovely, it resembled princeton, new jersey. again, there is this other side to it where he is taking what he knows and comparing what he is just meeting, hey, they are like us, they are like princeton, we have these connections. they are part of our community. and then he also pointed out the other side of the connecticut river is what is called the state of vermont, but, which is in dispute at that time. okay, so, he is

observing and recording. he is examining what is different, what is similar, what is common among these various regions and peoples, there were certainly some unfavorable comparisons but quite frankly, he was often very positive about what he was seeing. i will say he was also always looking for a future opportunities and this, the thing that we see with hawkins is he could not make it as a printer down here in philadelphia, there was a surplus of printers down here in philadelphia at the time. but, he was certainly looking out there and you see things like, oh, albany, do you have a printing press here. i see nobody is using it, well, he was drafting a letter to say, would you be interested in letting me have setting something up. he looked at what was up in dartmouth college, they have a printing press, wonderful, this liberty of liberties is the printing press. he thought this was

great. that is true civilization is to have a press. he is out there, looking for other opportunities and you go, this is what other soldiers were doing as well as they are marching through, is are they going to go back home or are they going to look for opportunities elsewhere? in the process of all of this hawkins was chasing those out as he isn't's regiment was out there collecting intelligence, denying intelligence to the enemy, as they were saying it because they were also sending elements up into canada at that point. checking in with native americans, trying to have native american allies or at least keeping them neutral, if nothing else in there, and making sure they knew our settlers were protected from and also made sure that they were not engaging with the enemy at that point. they regiment was showing the flag as it was moving into the border land to cut the and fishman off, as it did and by the end of august hazen had, indeed, cut that wrote up to what is now called hastens notch. it is right there below the canadian border, he was within sight of the canadian border when he got orders from

washington to return. that washington had gotten what he wanted out of this exposition, they feint had worked, sullivan's exposition was successful, it was time for hazing to bring his regiment back so that it would be ready for engagements they were the rest of 79 and moving into 1780 at that point, so with this, and i know i am coming to the end of this, they do continue on, if we go back to what you have said, after the cruise country campaign through their, they went back to morristown, they regiment suffered through the hardships of morristown in the winter encampments the in 1780, they regimen did march to yorktown in 1781, hains was very good abt recording that one as well, the long trip down into yorktown, what he was seeing there, at yorktown the regimen didistinguish itself. in particular it's light infantry comny, which had been attached to lafayette light infantry corpshrough the summer of 1781, and the light infantry company of hastens regiment was part of the assault party under hamilton, which beathe french

who are tryi to take read out number nine at the exact same time. after yorktown the regiment was sent up to lancaster, pennsylvania, not too far from here and, they were on guard duty with the prisoners of war there, where i would like to point out that haze and, again, was pressing for and get invasion of canada.

through into 1782 you know, let's do it and everybody is waiting for the diplomats to get everything done, to get the peace treaty, let's end this, and there is hayes and going, come on we have one last chance let's go for canada again, i love it. washington writes him back going, interesting, send me your plans, you know and i think this is great. as a senior officer he is going, write it out for me about how this would actually work, and the trouble, is that only kept his unoccupied for a few weeks and he had already said they planned back. but at that point

washington had other things for them to do, they were brought back up to new york, spent most of the rest of the war up at pumped in waiting for the furlough, most of the troop was furloughed in july, by june and july of 1783, one small contingent of it then continued up to west point, between west point and new bern where they stayed until the army was totally disbanded in november of 1783. here was a regiment that served from basically 1776, when it was authorized in january, to november of 1783. and, and it, sergeant major john h. shotguns was with it from 1777 through two 1783, and i am very thankful that he left us a journal to see part of this regiments travels, thank you very much. shall we? [applause] >> tyler, behind you. just raise your hand. maybe i will kick things off as soon as our contingency plan comes into effect with our handhelds. i really appreciated your casting the role of the continental army as a sort of nationalizing force, it is something that for those of you

who are familiar with our core exhibition here at the museum he will recall that very dramatic tableau seen with the life cast figures of the snowball fight with george washington breaking up this fight between new england and virginia soldiers. we did that, of course, because we wanted to our mind or tell visitors for the first time that the nation did not spraying out of the heads of the man who are gathered down the street here, it was a very hard, long process, perhaps an ongoing process that is still going on

a little bit later in the core exhibition, and you see that display of soldiers buttons from the period of 1777. and the valley forge accountant, when you was first printed on the buttons in the uniforms. one of the things we wanted to convey is that this is actually the first time most americans would have seen the usa, the first time that appears is on the body of these continental army soldiers. i think this regiment, again, being a regiment without a country is just an incredible embodiment of that process. >> they very much were. when you start looking at the rosters, at the end of this war lieutenant benjamin moore, who was actually the nephew of fred hastened started to do a roster, they were pulling all the names together and hawkins was part of that, he had also done part of the roster and move them together, which is that master roster that had about, i counted 1482 soldiers on that roster. and then i also did morey surgeon folded about another 300 or so who were not on it, the french canadians who had laughed, who had stayed in canada instead of coming down or had retreated. we get into about 1900 with all. but, on that roster today did not have

places where they came from. which was absolutely apart because wait around what they wanted their bounty lands they had to have a state affiliation by which to get it, but, about 300 of those names just had you asked after them, in other words they just had no state affiliation only the united states affiliation, and after that we saw the pennsylvanians, new yorkers and new jersey and the like that you saw, but the u.s. was essential. for the french canadians it was also essential for some of the foreigners. some of the prisoners of war at lancaster joined hastens regiment, germans more than the english in that case, others had also joined, it was very much a multiethnic, multilingual regiment there with the continental army. >> what happens to sergeant major hawkins after 1783? >> that is the hard part,

sergeant major hawkins almost disappears. there are only two other records i found and they were both about bounty lands in particular, as he was selling them off or distributing them elsewhere. basically, my 93 i cannot find him. i actually went into the records for the yellow fever hospitals to say whether he died and one of the hospitals, to see whether that happened, i could not find his name. i was a little relieved by that point, i did find at least to john hopkins is in the philadelphia directories. one was more of a cobbler and the other was a grocer i thought, you know is it possible? if he is who i think he was he may have had some experience with leather working in the family. i am more inclined to think he could be a grocer. with his experience it would have been relatively easy for him to set that up and to go into trade. he definitely did not become a farmer, i think he was too urban for that, i did not have that kind of experience but i

spent a lot of time trying to do it, i was determined to find this guy. i wanted to, who left this marvelous journal, i have spent all this time reading about him. i want to meet hand, you know? more than hazen, hazen, no problem but hawkins i really wanted to find. i couldn't, one of my colleagues said, that is part of the story here, is that so many of the people that we have named on these rosters, this is all we have of them. we know that they lived, we have their name, and we have nothing else. we know more about him but he also represents so many of the soldiers who came in, enlisted, fought, and disappeared.

>> do we know where those journals were between him disappearing into the is there and then ending up at hsp? or how they came into the collection? >> i have not seen it but if we want to talk to the hsp. >> there is a guy over there who might be able to help us with this. >> i will say, what is evident in this, at some point they were together, so, actually when he was writing them they were in smaller, paper bound kind of stitched together pages. and then, at some point, somebody decided to put them within a leather binding. and

when they did they were one or two pieces bound out of order. i was going, it stops here but then that is not going to this page. and, then i find it later on in the journal, there was a little bit of a difference. and if you take a good look at the journal you will notice the pages are of different sizes and they differentials again is showing where this first came from, and that the binding was later for this. >> thank you, doctor, i am going to throw the first question to one of our guests watching from home, this is from riley sutherland, who clearly is a fan of your past research. reilly asked, did dr. mayors will research reveal anything about the canadian women attached to the regimen? and if so, did their experience differ from other camp followers in other revolutionary british forces. >> absolutely, i managed to get a little bit in here about the women with the regiment i, could not leave camp followers, out there was no way. what we do know is that women and children did also retreat with the french canadians at the retreat from canada. moses hazen's wife, charlotte, was also a refugee, edward antill's wife was a refugee. she also kept bearing children in camp, and losing about half of them

in camp through the process of this war. there were certainly other soldiers who had their wives and children with them in camp, and, what is interesting is that within a few years, at least with the french canadians, seeing that some of the soldiers who had come down we're starting to marry the daughters of the other soldiers who had come down. they were maintaining their community ties in the camps. it is that it was much older soldiers with teenage daughters, but, if you look at the regulations, at some points they were saying women over the age of 14 would not be allowed to be in camp separately. you go, well, at that point you get married, you get rations, you are allowed to stay in camp. i did not find as many women following with the anglo soldiers, certainly not with the deserters from the german or the british side coming in with them. most of the time that is where they could stay closer to home, one of the things for camp

followers to always remember is are they coming out of areas in which there is action? they are following because they are all few refugees, not simply because of the funding. but, yes, they are there, they are in the book. >> i am curious, can you talk a little bit about fast forwarding to the 19th century when those who have a survived to the pension act in 18 18 to 32, what were you able to find out through those sources? which i think should be known by all americans, this is the first oral history archive of an american conflict, 80,000 pension records in the national archives. it is still such a bountiful field to plow, what did you learn about the ceo are? >> first we find out the best

records usually come after 1820, when you say you have to show need and what you all, what you don't on, and they are making this by the time you get into the 1830s. at this point they are just saying, you survived, we can pension you off at that point. in the 18 40s is also when the widows could ask for the pensions based on their husbands service, the soldiers service, and they would have to give proof of if they were actually married. the first of the accounts said, were you married during the war, then later on where you married within so many years of the war? and then, finally, it did not matter when you married the veteran. just that you have been married to one of the soldiers. what was tremendous and where i got most of these records was among the french canadians, because actually, congress, or the war department was tending to push against

some of them, especially going that means that she got married when she was 13, now, that campy, there must be something wrong. no, they actually did mary at 13 and some of these cases, and here are the reasons why. and they would try to get more information from these women, most of them were illiterate and she cannot write her name, she does not know this but she can give you the story. or tell tales about, well, we stood up in the barracks before everybody in the company and declare that we were married with the company commander there to supervise us,

so, it was a common law marriage. and then, for them, they were waiting until a priest would arrive and could actually do the sacramental marriage at this point. which did happen. there was a missionary priest by the name of father farmer who went up to the encampments and married some of them and baptized some of the children. so we have that. but, what they were doing was telling us these little intimate details of their life, at least one they thought they got married, if they had had children while they were still in camp with them at some point. the other part that was tremendous is they had maintained the community. for many of the french canadians new york state gave them bounty lands and those bounty lands were up past blacksburg. so, they were right on the canadian border. some of them were within 50 miles of where they had lived before the war. so, they were very close to home again at that point. and they had created a community up there. and then, and the pension accounts you have a sister being witness to sister.

from being witness to a brother's children. to than their children are representing their parents in these accounts. but, they really were all very much a strong community this way. so, it was a great other story, there. >> it is certainly been a theme of much of your work is thinking of these institutions whether they're regiments or armies, as communities. >> it really comes through. i think they would stay together better if they have become a community. have that sense of affiliation with them. as i said, it is also picking up on this idea of creating a community that is a nation. so, you have the smaller communities and then the bigger line that keeps growing from them. >> i will ask another question from our friends on the internet, walt, jarred, i am just wondering if john hawkins says anything about the famous couples and inside dealing that those of us who have been studying the later years of the revolutionary war may have heard of. >> not as much, i wish he would, there are quite a few gaps in his record. part of it, as you would see, as he lost part of his journal when he was running away from the highlander at

brandy wine. there was another account, when he was up at albany they had marched up from wilmington to albany for that first so-called eruption into canada and 78, and he had lost stuff out of his pocket that he thought was stolen. and there one another journal at that point. so, there are gaps in the record, at that point would i do see at the end, and this was before the new bergh conspiracy, as he was talking about hazen and hastens military family all together in aaron's kyler's house up there. and they are sitting around, and he is trying to write his journal, and he is trying to write letters and people are singing and dancing all around him. and then, the housekeeper, apparently, at that point just kept trying to push his stuff aside. he is saying, i am in fear of my life right now as she is brandishing knives at me to put down on the table, to set the table for dinner. he was talking more about things

that intimately concerned hand as opposed to those greater events. i would have loved to say they account about mutiny in new jersey, his regiment alyssa was putting it down. that is one of the gaps in the journal. >> i was about to call on john race. >> holly, could you tell us what you know about any african merchants with the regiment? >> i did look this up, i was checking it out. there were a few african americans in hazen's regiment. but, what made it difficult is that in the rosters they were not putting down race next to the soldiers names killing. they put down where they came from, because that is where they were soupy supplied and paid. but, there was no indication of race. so, what i started to do is i was researching some part of what we can do by naming. you know, there is a name that seems like it was often

associated with african americans. if i ran across that name i would try to research it, and i did find a few that way by tracing them back through census accounts. >> kate's, who could've been cato membered at one point was found as a freight person of color up in connecticut, but, he was never noted that way in the regiment himself for it. another person that i came across, i found about three or four is all i could say for sure that i had cooperating evidence to say that this was a person of color, one was john saratoga. he is an interesting character in this, no indication whatsoever about race, where i found out was later on at the end, of the war is that edward chan, who was the pay master of the regiment, putting the paperwork saying

that all monies due to john saratoga were to go to him, for he is my slave for life. so, here we know that we had, so, kate's member it was a free person of color, and then we have john saratoga who is an enslaved person, both serving in the regiment on the roles. major john taylor, from virginia brought an enslaved servant with him, and registered him into the regiments, so that he was then getting rations and pay through his enslaved servant. so, we do know that they were there, there were other accounts from putnam's regine minute at one point about 27 men and hazen's was part of putnam's regiment. there were 27 african americans with the regiment at that time, some of them will probably end hazen's regiment. i was really trying to track them down but i found it very interesting they did not make that designate are, and what does that mean? that they are not making that

designate are on these troops? >> before we give everyone the opportunity to get their book signed, to appreciate the amazing work we have on loan from hsp or imagine what that knapsack contained with our recreation, it is our long tradition for scott stevenson to have the final question. >> i do like to have the final word. i am curious, have portions, presumably not all of the diary has been published, i am just curious if what would you like to say about that. >> i did, and the mets of doing this, this is one of the things where your research goes wrong or right, i am not sure where it is, but, when i first came across the sergeant major's journal, and he is my sergeant

major, i started to think, while this would be a great thing to transcribe, annotate, and then publish as a primary source for years, so i have transcribe the entire journal, i have got the transcription in my records, but, i got so involved going, every time i was going to anti-something, oh, i have to learn more. i have to learn more. the next thing you know is i think i'm writing a re-monograph, here. i think i have another story in this. there is a part of me that is still thinking, maybe i should still go back and publish this primary source for use in schools and elsewhere, whether or not that is an i don't go in that direction, i am going to give the transcription to hsp. it doesn't make sense that it just stays on my computer at that point. yeah, okay. well the second half of my final question is just more broadly as

we approach the 250th anniversary of the declaration of independence going to be somewhat of a celebration. i hope here in philadelphia. just curious. what are you? what are you thinking about? what are your aspirations? what are you worried about open-ended question, but how are you reflecting on you know, the commemoration anniversary that's coming up. certainly hoping i'm still going to be here to celebrate that yeah with it all actually right now. i'm just working. i'm actually an editor for a volume on women waging war. it is a collection of essays about the women's side of this war in it. it's under contract with uva press and so that should be coming out next spring. so that's the project in the near term and then it may be a revisiting sergeant major hawkins. fantastic. well, thank