him understand a certain story little better. they might speak on that to the entire congregation. but really it's not something, so there are some here that are not accustomed to have that practiced done. >> the 17th century english village at plymouth patuxet, interprets the town and the people who live there up until 1627. seven years after the pilgrims arrived on the mayflower. weekends are c-span two are an intellecal feast. every saturday, american history tv documents america story. and on sundays, book tv brings

you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span two comes from these television companies and more, including charter communications. >> broadband is a forceful empowerment. that's why charter has invested billions builng infrastructure, upgrading technology, empowering opportunity in communities big and small. charter is connecting us. >> charter communications, along with these television companies support c-span two as a for public service. s evening. >> well, good evening to everyone. we are so delighted to be here this evening. it's such a cozy environment for the discussion we want to have tonight, and you know, as we think about thanksgiving season and the fact that we are gathered here this evening to discuss the mayflower compact, and the fact that it's the 401st anniversary of the

signing of this quintessential and inspiring american document. it just warms my heart. and i'm so delighted to see the young people who are here as well for this incredible conversation that we will have this evening. so, on behalf of our current resident, [interpreter] and our president elect, dr. roberts, we bring our work with the rfi or the museum of the bible for the 16 20, the mayflower compact in america's founding offense. at a time when the moral fabric of the american founding is constantly under assault, we are so reminded of the power of storytelling. for thousands of years, humans have relied on storytelling to transfer history and knowledge, to share emotions, and to relate personal experiences. so, the story of how the

pilgrims sowed the seeds of liberty and self government, that made their humble new england settlement a cradle of american democracy must never, ever, ever be forgotten. it is the story that has the power to safeguard the sanctity of the american idea and to exhibit it's relevance to all americans, including those who have lost confidence in our nation as a place of hope, opportunity, and community for all americans. so, it's my honor tonight to introduce you to our moderators for this panel discussion. my dear colleague, doctor joe look onsite, is the director of the former institutes be kenneth simon center for american studies. in this capacity, dr. law conte serves its heritage is leading scholar on western civilization and john locke. he is a former associate professor of history at the kings college in new york, and

author of the new york times bestseller, but a hobbit, a wardrobe, and a great war, how jay are our token and cbs louis rediscovered they, venture up, and heroism. jill scholarship is respected across the nation. he also serves as a senior fellow in christianity and culture at the kings college, as a senior fellow at the trinity form in washington, d.c., as a scholar with the faith and liberty discovery center in philadelphia. they've not moved. he's briefly the served as a distinguished visiting professor at the school of public policy at pepperdine university, where he taught on religion and public policy. i would also like to welcome and, our second moderator, doctor eric patterson, boosters is the executive vice president of the religious freedom institute. dr. patterson is a scholar at large and a past the four robertson school of government

at regent university and a relatives fellow at the georgetown university's berkeley center for religion and human affairs, where she served for sometime. eric's interest in the intersection of religion and foreign policy is informed by significant government service. including two stints at the u.s. department of state's bureau, a political military affairs, along with 20 years of an officer and commander at the air national guard and serving as a white house fellow working for the director of the u.s. office of personal management. ladies and gentlemen, our moderators, dr. joseph loconte and dr. eric patterson. please welcome them. [applause] >> thank you, angela. thank you so much for that. can you guys hear me back there in the bleacher seats? great, okay. welcome, everybody. so got everybody here tonight.

it says a lot about you that you came out here to hear a discussion about the mayflower compact. this is all about you, and it's all good. we are in the throes of a debate today over the meaning and the legitimacy of our democracy, right? the latest conspiracy theory, masquerading as history, is that everything important about america can be explained through the lens of racism and oppression. but at the very beginning of american story, we see something else. something remarkable in the history of world of civilization. because in 16 20, we see a group of settlers established political community based on the concepts of self governments and equal justice. it's and the thought of shooting moment, not just in but 1620, especially when you consider that hundreds of millions of people today, ladies and gentlemen, today, live under governments that completely reject these basic democratic principles. and the attempt to ignore this foundational moment in the

american story, to pretend it didn't happen, it kind of makes me think of the tourists who travels to the piano region in southern italy, and i've been there. but tourist returns home after -- and he is very unhappy, and he informs us there are no wineries, no vineyards, no rows of grapes, no wind tasting to be had anywhere in this region. what are we to do with this poor, brooding, befuddled specimen of humanity? we can only pity him. but we are here today to observe with our eyes open and to remember and to engage. to help us do that, we've got an all-star path, i mean an all-star panel, i'm going to introduce very, very briefly, and i will turn it over to eric patterson. wilfred m. mcclay, professor of history of hillsdale college in visiting scholar who are the simon center for american studies and heritage foundation. his most recent book is lance of hope, an invitation to the great american story. by offering a more balanced

account of our history, bill's book is like a vaccine. yes, a vaccine, inoculating the next generation of americas from the poisonous propaganda that threatens to infect our entire educational system. william allen, americas dean of james madison college, and there it is professor of political science at michigan state university. he's a former chairman of the u.s. commission on civil rights, served as a kellogg national fellow, full rights fell out, member of the national council on the humanities. doctor ellen has published several books, including george washington, america's first progress. if i love that title. if the days progressives took this book seriously, i think they would renounce their progressivism and repent. thank you, dr. alan, for the book. and -- senior fellow at the religious freedom institute in washington, d.c.. dr. hall's and educators educator. he has authored several textbooks, curriculum, popular

history techs including the complete idiots guy to world history, clearly written for the continent. within the field of education, dr. hall advocates for civic digital and religious liberty -- literacy. there is a liberal concept. he was recently honored at the vance county teacher of the gear in vance county. so, turn it over to eric patterson for some opening remarks. [applause] >> good evening. it's a pleasure to be here with you tonight. on behalf of our president, tom far, and all of us at religious freedom institute, it's a presence to be here and we are honored to work with the museum of the bible and the heritage foundation on this project. our mission is we are committed to achieving worldwide acceptance of religious liberties of fundamental human rights, a source of individual -- a cornerstone of a successful

society. it is a driver of national and international security. the reason that we're here tonight is because ideas have consequences. you all know that. and we believe inaccurate history, and there's no more assailed moment in our history than those early years when people came to the united states as early colonists around 1620. there's two framing of this happening. one is the accurate history that's been happening for the last three centuries, recognizing the sacrifice of the colonists who came and asking the question, what was it that drove them towards this idea of ordered liberty? but you know, there's another project going on, the so-called 1619 project, which has been denounced by top historians like jason mcpherson --

largely phony history, and it's one that has focused on real evils in american history, like slavery and things as our founding principal. that just isn't so. in part, because the pilgrims didn't practice. that they didn't believe in it. now, what i want to note tonight is that these are competing ideas right now, and they really do have consequences. now, i've got good news for you. freedom winds. freedom one in eastern europe in the 19 80s, and it continues to win around the world. when you think about the american story, it is true that there has been slavery and injustice, but what's beat it? what be it were the things that sprouted from the seeds the pilgrims and then, the later americans cherished. that is the idea of ordered liberty for every single person in this country. so, that's really in part what's at stake when we talk about real history of the

mayflower compact. it's history, and tonight, we're going to talk about that. it's also pedagogy. how we teach our history. we're going to talk about that tonight as well. let me say, one housekeeping bit of information, and that is you should have received a card when you came in. for those of you who are viewing this online, you can hit the chat feature and send in a question. so, if you send your card questions to the fellows in the back, or if you raise your hand, all come in, or if you put a question into the chat feature, we're going to receive its on this ipad that neither doctor loconte nor i know how to use. since we are still writing with quills, we will ask those questions in just a bit. but first, i'm going to in service moderator to ask a question, each of our panelists tonight. so, let me start with dr. mcclain. doctor mcclay, welcome.

here's our opening question for you. tell us about the political and religious traditions in which the pilgrims were rooted that helped them frame their efforts of government. how, for example, did their enthusiastic all doctrines and practices inform their assumptions when they drafted the mayflower compact? >> thank you. and they don't know how far back to go in answering that, but i will say one thing to begin with. this may add a little inflection to your remarks about but two versions of the history, because i think while the story has been told pretty well in the past, and i have very little good to say about the 1619 version of, it's one thing historians have not particularly emphasized is the religious mention of the american experiment and the american founding. so, that's where i would like to begin in talking about the mayflower compact. the pilgrims, there's a chapter in one of the books on the

pilgrims that they knew they were pilgrims, and that's so true. they were primarily motivated by religious zeal, by this desire to go somewhere, to craft the true religion and found a pure, and create as four or afraid of the corruption of the church of england, and to recreate the english way of life in a new continent 3000 miles across the city. it was a bold, audacious thing driven by religious faith. if you look at the compact, you see, it begins with an indication of the glory of god and with the fact that this plantation, this colony, is being founded in conference of the glory of. got it brings about religious assumptions.

a lot of times, people, say oh, this is not like john locke, john locke had not written that, by his ideas about the state of nature and how people came together to form a civil compact. well, not exactly. in fact, these people were not found in the united states of america. they are our forebears, and i think we are right to claim them and that isn't what they thought they were. they were going somewhere to found the pure church and lived out their lives. that's part of the question. one other thing i think is worth pointing out if in the end, the mayflower compact is a civil union. it is not a theocracy. and how did that happen? it's because when they landed

near providence, and of the least puritan places on the planet right now, cape cod, that's where they landed, and they knew anything north of the hudson river was outside the charter that had come from the king. so technically speaking, they were outside of a legal authority. some of those aboard the ship, they were called the strangers, the non puritan, non pilgrim elements, or at least, not fervent, as the core group was. we say well, gee, we are free to go wherever we please once we land, because there is no controlling these authorities. and that's how the compact came about. it was an effort to forge a civil community, to hold it together, because the leaders of the pilgrims knew they all needed one another. they needed the strangers.

they were not particularly fervent from the religious leaders at all, but they had zeal that they would be absolutely necessary for survival. it was a gesture driven ultimately by religious aspirations. but also accommodating itself to a civil society, a civil and secular order. i think one thing that is interesting about this is we often are told that america, the united states, it's founded as a secular country in the constitution, it doesn't invoke god. and the first amendment indicates the capacity of our secular institutions, the power, the tolerate religion. if we look back to the example of the mayflower compact, it's the other way around. that religious people, partly

out of principle, partly out of expediency, went the other direction. and created a civil society that could include everyone. it still was religiously based. we often forget, or are taught wrongly, about religious heritage that's a part of our earliest foundational years. i welcome the heritage foundation's attention to the mayflower compact. the ecclesiastical aspect. >> it really is a fascinating story told. people seeking religious liberty, but not adjourning, not imposing it, and not imposing upon others to create a civil compact. it's a model for the. time 100 -- doctor allen, let's turn to you. nikole hannah-jones's latest

efforts, but 16 19 project, a new origin story, was released earlier this week. how does this new origin story of the united states, compared to the historical realities of the pilgrims, and the mayflower compact, what seems to be the greatest weaknesses of the 1619 project, and why should that matter to us? >> -- i think it's important for us to understand and nature of the conversation we're having. we have two stories, and the story of family members, and the story of national memory. we aren't always aware, not always positive, of the power of those things fit together, how they mesh. when i've spoken about the mayflower compact, i spoken about it from the perspective of the opening alliance upon god and the instruction, before they even mounted the ship,

they had it newly imposed on them to arrive at the destination, not just geographically, morally. that they had aimed for. but we are perhaps led a straight when we focus too much on the lofty purpose and too little on the ordinary souls. souls like ourselves. because the real story of the united states, of america, of the mayflower compact, of the pilgrims, of the settlement of this land, is the story of a enriching ordinary souls with. got as an example, i had a very good friend, who is actually a descendant of one of the ship mates from the mayflower compact, who signed the mayflower compact. his ancestor was stephen hawking's. we might think, okay, what can

we learn from stephen hawking? he is with all the rest of them. what does history tell us about ourselves? we can't even begin to get there until we first ask a couple of questions. the united states became a special kind of country, the country that proved to eliminate slavery. and it is important to ask why was it that kind of country? it has something to do with who they were in the beginning, and that's why the 1619 project is irrelevant. the 1619 has nothing to say about the ordinary souls who were there in the beginning. now, stephen hawkins didn't come to north america for the first time on the mayflower. stephen hawkins was in jamestown. he was there in 1609, 1609.

he had left london, left his wife and three children there, as he went off with what? a band of aristocratic adventurers, not religious leaders, not pilgrims, people who were out looking for -- and didn't have very much of a commitment to -- themselves, because they were used to having everything done for them. hawkins had been a ministerial assistant, and he went off as a ministerial assistant. he had and then straight of functions for the governor, as well as being a reader in congregation. so he obviously had some religious background. but hawkins soon got into trouble. remember, jamestown went through terrible times. they nearly starved to death! they mismanage the place. they wouldn't work for themselves, and they abuse the ladies. but for some reason, we don't know, because he was not a literary man, hawkins, he didn't need -- no abstract principles.

the only non sentence was death. because he had popped off. -- infuriated him, and he expressed. it that was called mutiny. please have mercy led to his -- so he was not put to death. perhaps he wasn't executed because they knew he needed against that one away from, and that was of every -- but, his wife died, he got a letter, and so he returned to london. that's why he was in london when it was time for the group to leave on the mayflower. they had two years before he heads back to north america, thinking he is returning to virginia. they didn't sail for plymouth. they sailed for virginia. then, they were blown off course, of course, with those

two divisions of sailing, and landed somewhere i was who knows where in a far harsher climate. hawkins was on that crew with his second wife, since his first wife had passed. he was the man who actually had lost several lives, because in those days, it was very severe, very harsh, and it wasn't unusual for people to -- a produced a large family, mostly girls, if it will, many of whom also died early. i'm asking you to imagine in this story, who this man was? what his life was about. don't think about -- think about the ordinary soul. what on earth sent him into those dangerous waters, seeking a new life? why was he a signature to the mayflower compact? we don't know, because he left

us no written record. we know him from birth records back to -- legal records. that's how we know him. we could produce something about him as we look at these things. we could see, whatever it was to lead to those problems, i like to speculate being -- we know that when he came to these shores on the mayflower, he had not only his new wife and his children, but a couple of servants. but they weren't servants. they all have service an angle and -- they were not slaves. we know they got in trouble there, because even had done it -- why? in addition to his administrative functions, he had and ordinary. that -- and he was reprimanded for having anybody sit and drink in his in! servants and other sorts, was what the language was that was

expressed. who were the other sorts? maybe natives. maybe a handful of slaves. my point is this. 16 20, there was a stephen hawkins there who was someone who was fighting to build a life that had nothing to do with the question of slavery. it had everything to do with a solid grasp on those little, middle class principles and values, and individual us it's ultimately characterized in this society. i would submit it is far more characteristic of this society than anything you could do to describe in the 1619 project. i think the project itself, the 1619 project, is focused on privilege because the new york times came into being in the 1850s act that the fender of privileges -- that's all they know how to talk about. but the point is this. ask yourself, remember, i said

there are descendants of hawkins here. ask yourself this questions. why did the united states become the kind of nation that could end slavery? did it have to do with the kind of soul stephen hawkins was, and the fact that they were very -- remember, as we went through the civil war, over 600,000 americans lost their lives on both sides. half of them were in the confederacy. the other half war, of course, for the union. of those, we don't know how many, but in the army of the union, abraham lincoln gives us evidence, there were 160 something thousand who were emancipated. they were emancipated themselves, of course. now, this is the environment you can see eight spirits growing among the people, that spirit represented in stephen

hopkins that had more to do with what this country is, where it came from, and how it should be understood then a handful of slaves and, perhaps a few indentured servants. brought over in 1619. at that time, there was no racial defense of slavery. no one would bring into that until much later. that was simply something that happens in the course of some people's practice of convenience that all timidly had consequences that extended far beyond what anyone had anticipated. but they did anticipate, we know, from the mayflower compact. but what they did anticipate we, know from bribes like stephen hopkins. we know because we have his will. he didn't have slaves. we know because most people were people more like stephen hopkins than they were like slave owners. so, the story being told in the 1619 project is a false story. let me put it differently.

it's a dishonest story. it's possible to make the kind of argument that we would make through that project, sincerely, because one thinks, it's an argument. let's try it out. let's engage. what's dispute with people, debate, it's see how the argument fares. that's not exactly what is happening in that project. without disparaging the participants involved, it is clearly dishonest precisely because it ignores stephen hopkins. in the same way it ignores abraham lincoln. sl averybefore it calls lengthen an from the -- who was in fact not opposed to slavery and who did what he did in order to satisfy the needs of white privilege. that's effectively what they're arguing. they know it's dishonest, i quoted it, they said a note to mr. silver star, the editor.

said look, it's all right to make this argument about mr. lincoln, but don't you at least owe him the courtesy of a response. it turns out he did respond himself. he had written a letter addressing, point by point, the very questions in the response to the accusations they make. he never acknowledged my note. they never published lincoln's response. that's why i say, it is not just a false argument, it is a dishonest argument. now, lincoln's argument captures the heart of the life of stephen hopkins. i will read it to you, perhaps we'll come back later and you have a copy of, it a brief letter he sent to someone from kentucky. it's interesting, because a person they are ready to a someone who would've been sympathetic to -- lincoln went out of his way to

do exactly the office it. he was not catering to any opinion of the age. he was declaring outright firm principles, moral principles. those firm principles tell our national story. and they have meaning because we all have families like stephen hopkins that have been nurtured in them. we remember our families, good and bad, because they made us what we are. we remember our national history, good and bad, because it made us what we are. >> thank you for that. [applause] in this time, where dishonest history, or someone feels history ought to be, it's apparent in writing, it's a great corrective. for you to remind us that

things really happened, there were real people. we have the evidence and we ought to be honest. so thank you, very, very much for that. that leads us to teaching. dr. hall is a distinguished teacher. he has partnered with our fine heritage on writing the curriculum that will come out later. very shortly, on the mayflower compact, for high school students. let me ask you, dr. hall, what do we need to teach young people about the meaning and significance of the mayflower compact? what is missing in our current approach is, our current history textbooks, in teaching about the subject? and how do teachers, whether they're parent teachers in home schools, private schools are public schools, what do they need to be able to strengthen our commitment to citizenship as related to the main mayflower compact? >> first, let me say thank you. i'm glad to be here, excited to be a part of this panel. it is a privilege to be on the stage, so i'm very excited for

that. know that this is just a generalization, from my 20 plus years of being an educator. writing different standards at the national and state levels, participating in the national endowment for the humanities institute on separation of church and state. harvard divinity schools religious institute. these are generalizations, all say that. first, that's a great question. what is missing for our students and how might a more informed understanding of the mayflower compact build civic illiteracy? because that's what we're trying to do, that's what we need. doctor alan was talking about that beforehand here. and informed understanding, before going off of understanding the religiosity of the document, i think that something that needs to be put out there.

that we need to understand the religiosity. and it is rooted in that christian nature. now, i get it, most teachers are fearful of that. there are a variety of reasons. they're afraid to teach about that because they're afraid of pushback from parents and students, maybe they're not comfortable with that religious literacy piece. possibly there in trade they're going to be biased to their own religious tradition, so they're hesitant. we really need to recognize the christian piece to that mayflower compact. with an understanding that we're approaching the document from a cultural studies approach. three things to know about the cultural studies approach. first off, religions are internally diverse. second, they are now changing over time. and third, they are embedded in culture. meaning the culture gets to the religion, and religion gets to

the culture. so, with the mayflower compact in particular, you can see where it is influenced by its christiane 80. we need to recognize that in the classroom. and that is important. then, going back to the pluralistic nature of the mayflower compact is important as well. i'm drawing on the work of amy gutman here. we really wanted to look at deliberative democracy, which requires the principles and methods of education that promote a shared commitment to the rights and responsibilities of a civil body politic. with people that don't share the same concept of a good life. so, this democratic education helped cultivate moral agency. meaning making one's own ethical decisions through the development of critical thinking skills, self confidence and humility.

it's this type of democratic education that promotes the condition that enables democracies to flourish, now and in the future. in teaching the compact, with these christian and religious roots, and the pluralism of the separatists and strangers, students are able to witness a deliberative democracy in action. if teachers glass over these distinctions, which they have. you look at the textbooks, it's twitter brevity. self rule, governor of the consent, let's move on very quickly. if you do that, if you gloss over these distinctions, the historic moment loses its real educative power for a deliberative democracy. i also argue there are many other movements and events in american and world history that need this more rigorous approach. that foster that deliberative

democracy that we are talking about. in this question, i ended by stealing and modifying a famous line from ben franklin about the new republic of the united states. a republic, if you can teach it. >> -- that's a great modification, i think you are going to start being quoted on that one. well, i just want to remind you about our process for questions. we have about 30 minutes for q&a, and then we'll wrap it up. i want to remind, you if you have a card, if you raise your hand, our assures will come and grab those from you right now. i see them moving with some churchill ian haste. remember, churchill said make haste slowly. they're moving. for those who are online, a reminder that you can type your question right into the chat box. of doctor joseph loconte will

have it and will read it, those will be entered into the chat box that we'll read it. let me turn it over to you, joseph loconte. >> and what weight does the mayflower compact account for non-christians in their society? >> how does the compact account for non-christians? i >> signatory, i mean. it counts in that way. everyone -- it was important that non-christians or non, let's just say, the people who are not fervent puritans, might well have been christians. we don't know a lot of that with any of them. it doesn't definitional-y deal with them, but i think the very fact that they participated on an equal basis gives it profound meaning.

maybe others have -- >> i would follow, we must remember, this is specific in the compact, it is a covenant. a covenant among people who agree. so that there agreement among themselves to find the community, an idea of accommodating non-christians or non members of the community, doesn't arise in that context. why should they? be mindful of non christians? what they have done is extended invitation to like-minded people to form a community together. well, guess what? any human being can do that. they don't have to stay, here's what you non-christians can do, you can do it to. anybody can do that! attract like-minded people and for my community. therefore, it is present and they're very act as affirmation of the humanity of all. >> i want to take this question to you as well, because you're such a background on religious freedom. remember the historical context,

16 20, the 30 years war is making its way through europe right now. they are embroiled in religious conflict, not able to accommodate the religious differences. but we are seeing something like that here, a combination. go ahead. >> that is exactly right. on the european continent, there's going to be four overlapping wars that we call the 30 years war that ended in 16 48. england is going to have its own civil war, which has a religious dimension that will happen two decades later, after the mayflower compact. but this group of separatists take a theology from the reformation about the priesthood of all believers, which flashes itself out in their ecclesial-ology, and their local church, as a certain quality among the members. respect for one another rather than a hierarchical, authoritarian type of church structure. they have to figure, out how are we going to compromise? how are we going to work together? they have a model that they had

been practicing since the 1570s in england, then in the netherlands. of coming together, covenant-ing in a concrete contractual sense, to work together for the common good. it is rooted in a theology that is so different than the religious wars that are going to take place in europe. >> a religious foundation for religious pluralism. isn't that interesting? >> we have another great question here. as an educator of middle school aged children, what book would you recommend i use in teaching? middle school aged children. well, we have to say bill mcclain's book out of the gate. >> i've been struggling with my sense of modesty, my desire to promote myself. the latter is winning here. i think land of hope is probably the reading of it was too high for that. but we are about to come out with a young readers addition,

which i'm actually working on the paves proofs of right now. not right now, but i'll go back to my hotel and work on. to get them out in time for next year's school classes. that's really aimed at fifth and sixth graders, which is the age at which most students have their exposure to u.s. history. so, yeah, but look, there's a lot of wonderful, older books. biographies of figures in american history is. i wouldn't trust a lot of the newer stuff coming out of publishing houses today. but older biographies of the founders, some of the great figures. davy crockett, who is an extremely interesting figure by the way, politically. and terms of his relations with the indians and his consciousness of there being

writes. i would do a lot of that with those younger students. i think, conveying a sense of america as not just a story but as a cautery of stories, many stories, rich stories. i've been stories of, i think, and one where the great american stories that -- alluded to. or a nation that has given president an opportunity to normal people, to make something of themselves. to have opportunity, to have hope, to have enterprise. there are lots of books about that kind of thing over the years, little books, short books. very manageable, digestible for people. i would recommend having that kind of thing. >> you want to take a shot at

this? >> i'll take a shot at this. >> -- >> so, i would avoid all secondary sources. i would say go ahead and go to the primary sources. get into the u.s. documents, those are readily available online. in a variety of places. really scaffold those readings so the students can actually get deep into those primary source documents and start sourcing those documents and doing close reading of the documents and collaborating, corroborating those documents, all those things you do. avoid the secondary sources, really get into the primary sources. >> the unfiltered primary sources, we love those. doctor allen? >> -- i would say, thinking about that age question. we have a tendency to be a little didactic. i embrace -- perspective. that is the age when they are most obsessed with challenging

and questioning things. what you should be teaching them is logic. >> chill comes over. >> joe, can i mention something? >> i think story is a way to catch younger people. i agree with you about primary -- >> -- catch himself. >> this is what i've always gotten wrong about it. [laughter] if you just read the mayflower compact and had no other supporting information, it's hard to draw from it. the kinds of things that we are drawing from it tonight. because we are reading with an amount, we have a cabinet presentation on the story, i'm tempted to say we should do that. i guess we can assume all of

you know most of the story but. it's the interaction between the text and the context that is the most meaningful, right? to my mind. well i'm not at all opposed plunging in the primary sources, i think, without some of the narrative account surrounding them, being the sort of frame of the picture, you're not going to be able to get as much ahead of it for younger people. i defer to year -- >> -- didactic, all i want to say is this. [inaudible] it was a big mistake, and attempt to create narratives in the category of here is what you must think. we fault it to that trap, we're going to send them in the other direction. >> i don't think the narrative should be a sobs fables. >> it's not fables are --

>> that's pretty didactic. >> -- didactic at all, they work because they capture what you already know. they're not didactic, but the whole point. that is a story i tell you another day. we had all day to tell you why. [laughter] >> great story don't have to be didactic to carry a, point they can carry young people along simply by the force of their flow. in their intrinsic human interest. >> patterson, do you want to jump in there? >> tim has got something as well. >> i'd go back to what doctor allen said, starting out with some primary sources and a compelling question associated with those primary sources, really framing that inquiry is the way to approach it. i think you are right, i think eventually students start to develop their own interpretations.

and we cannot provide that interpretation for them a lot of times. we have to have them pull that out, questioned them, make sure they understand those sources well. >> i would simply say that we have a high school curriculum that is free, it's five lessons on religious liberty that are tied to key themes. but also rooted in the work of martin luther king junior and others. and a junior high version of that is called the america's first freedom curriculum that you can download from the religious freedom institute website. it's at the 11th grade, level like your text. , after in february or march, we will publish an eighth grade version of that that will be freely available. and it ties some of these things. >> to illustrate this, if we say it's the 16 19 version, george washing -- because he wanted to keep a slaves. there's no anecdote to that other than george washington's own words in 1783. -- civil and religious liberty,

that's what they need to see. they don't need me to tell them, they need to be there and meet george washing ton. >> like he, said let the text speak, let it speak. have a question from the virtual audience, glad you're here, almost. can you speak to the effect that the mayflower compact had on roger williams and the founding of rhode island? great haven for religious liberty there, right? i see that as something against religious freedom. that's what comes down to the question. can you speak about the effect the mayflower compact had on roger williams and the founding of rhode island? is there a connection? >> but one thing i would say about roger williams that has been well documented, for instance and that biography of him by, i think, john barry. is that right? when you look at roger williams, what is often missed is his early life and his early adult life in the united kingdom. so, for instance, he was the personal secretary to all of her calm while.

he saw what was going on in england and the political divisions. and really also the class divisions that lead win to what we would talk about the round heads and the cavaliers. he was right there in the star, chamber watching that before he comes to the massachusetts bay colony. i think i'm speaking kind of, where would i best get at the early history of roger williams? i wouldn't go to the mayflower compact, in my understanding. i would start there. oh >> i was going to say, the mayflower compact was never a legally binding form of governance. how it initiated a civil politic, big but it remained to construct the government and its legal foundation. so, the 16 40s, the liberties, that's when they begin to set forth the terms of the relationship, legally speaking. that has more to do with the roger williams and the

mayflower compact as. >> i've a question here from our onsite audience, it's a big one. for bill mcclay up. are there historic examples of civilization surviving and recovering from an elite that hates the civilization? >> this is a little too targeted. i don't know if i'd call that i had acted question. >> it's got some punch to it. >> the part about the elite that hits at civilization is a little difficult to respond to. but i think that one of the fascinating things about the history of rome is the extent to which roam, i mean, there is a certain way to actually understand realm as falling. something sort of different

happened, where rome is transformed into the center of at least western christiane 80. and -- little by little, because of their personal example more than anything, begin to weave their way into the social structure of romanticize it. to the point where, by the time, the directly shins where the last attempt to get rid of them. and then konstantin comes to power, he has himself converted. some debate about just how christian he was, but he makes the religion acceptable. and it becomes official. and transforms rome out of its decadence, into something that seemed to be the leading edge of what would be a very

disorganized and vibrant medieval era. and so onwards. i don't know if that was really the example of a questioner was looking for. we i don't if there's hope the united states can turn itself around. >> there is a warning about it in the question, isn't there? if you think about the french revolution but, the elites in the revolution, rob speier and company, they do reject what is come before. it is a fierce rejection, not only of the monarchy but also of the church and all the traditions that came before. they immediately alienate themselves from over half the population. you get the bloody french revolution, you can the guillotine, then you get the pulley. that didn't and, well we know that. the thing about the americans that is a hopeful on my mind is the american revolutionary do not reject everything that comes before, they're building on this earlier tradition. >> they're trying to restore -- >> maybe that something we can talk about just for a minute here, gentlemen. what they are holding on to. taking past the, mayflower

right up to the revolutionaries we are mindful of this mayflower experience. what are they holding on to, even as our going and some radical directions with the revolution? we understand, that there is no monarchy, that's pretty radical stuff. but they're holding on to this inheritance. go ahead. >> i think that is fundamentally it. there is always that famous dialogue with the revolutionary veteran, i forget his name. who is asked, why didn't you go to war? were you influenced by reading sydney? he said, i've never heard of him. he said, the reason we went after the red coats is because we had always ruled ourselves. and they were intent that we wouldn't anymore. so, that was why we went after them. it's a tradition of self rule, it involves fundamental rights, inherited rights that were being agitated through all the events of the 17 60s and 1770s. so, i think it's that.

and the religious element, that i think it's really important to talk about with the mayflower compact, is less evident. but not absent, not by any means. >> yes. doctor allen, you wanted to say something? >> i disagree with my friend and colleague. i don't think it was [inaudible] the american founding. >> that's a different point. >> i think they were conceding themselves, they were making a break. there were principles. yes, they said no taxation without representation, which was a law before england. but they actually understood didn't way. they oppose the constitutional challenge to the british constitution as self consciously doing so. so, they were prepared to set sail on open seas, uncharted waters -- they were not beholden merely to self rule.

i understand that argument, but they're preparing themselves. i think that part is true. but they were affirming the past, they're not underscoring it to be sure. they are affirming the past. why? because i had a special conquest in the god given rights of humankind. and they were affirming bat, that is a president over everything else. the idea that human beings are capable of self governance. that's not derivative of anything in england, that is on the specifically affirmed in the context of the revolution. it carries a whole moral weight that the revolution. the whole moral freedom of conscious is embedded in it. >> do you think it's present to the mayflower compact? in the pilgrims as well? >> no, not in that sense. you have to look beyond that. with the mayflower compact had was a commitment to full politics. it had not yet serviced, for

example, the overriding -- conscience. yes, they had exercised, but they had not asserted and defended in those terms. the fundamental christian foundation in freedom of conscious is what -- recognized. as i've said in some of my writings, american is a christian nation because of the freedom of conscience, doesn't matter if there's any christiansen. it that is basically a question principle, you can't get it any other way. that was what was, happening that was the revolution. you don't understand, that we're going to shortchange our selves. >> powerful. >> i disagree. [laughter] >> i would say this, going back to the compact. if we lack, when we're teaching it, to really recognize the religious elements of it and the plurality of it, part of the problem with interpretation in classroom of the american

revolution is that the founders got most of their ideas, if not all of their ideas, from the enlighten philosophers. oh that really comes from that. i there might be some understanding of the great awakening as being somewhat important, but really just very brief. it really points all the way back just to the indictment philosophy. i think that really short changes our students on the importance of religious traditions in our nation. >> tonight's pick up on this point? it's simply that, so, how did these people think that they had agency? rather than a fatalistic, which is much of human history, kind of the gods do it or it's out of our control, that comes from his ideas that come to the reformation. that the separatists, the pilgrims are a part of. ordered liberty is the idea of this conscious, but it's before god. and it's international moral order.

not chaos, not moral chaos. these religious underpinnings that become this cultural foundation, you don't get there some other way, it doesn't happen by chance. it is rooted in some of these religious presuppositions from the christian faith of the time. i've heard what you just said twice today. earlier time was by my colleague at the religious freedom institute, who heads our-ism and religious freedom team, -- . he made the same case me after an event we had on antisemitism today, that these values and an american cultural context came from christiane 80, but they're now universal. >> yes, but that's besides the point, the universal. because they came to prevail and the force of their instance iain and the united states above all. became universal because the understanding became universal. so religion that managed to

spread throughout the world without using a sort. i know there were crusades, and other inquisitions, but that's not how christiane it spreads. it's spread without a sword. gonna take this concrete form in a culture that had a political structure, that gave it a thrust in the world which was carried forward after 16 48 the treaty of hysteria, the rise of the nation state. that changed the whole foundation of human relationships. no longer tribe, no longer blood, no longer religion. politics had been put in a cabinet. the nation-state now had to justify itself. it can be given by signing by the pope, or anyone else. it had to be -- that is the foundation that it worked, on and again to this concrete reality through the

founding of the united states. that's the revolution. >> i think it's really important having this discussion of freedom of conscience and religious liberty. because, as you guys know, the principle of freedom of conscience is under assault that none of us on the stage have ever seen. at least in our memories. so, it's good to have the discussion, isn't it? we have more questions here. go ahead. >> that last question also, have to tell, you that question has been answered by someone. -- didn't believe in the story. he describes senator carthage going to run to accuse harrell, thinking they were defending it but doing exactly the opposite, destroying it. what was accounted for that loss was that those elites hated their country and can save it because of that. and, guess what? there is none today. >> hurry doing on time? >> about ten more minutes.

>> a couple more questions, how do we reclaim the stories we tell about ourselves and preserve our national identity that arose from that? how do we reclaim the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, and preserve our national identity that arose from them? maybe the backdrop of that question is, we've got so many sources in society telling us a different story about ourselves. i think there's a lot of lies out there that our nation's history. but how do we reclaim the stories? how do you recommend week about it? >> i think one thing that we do is we don't -- if the stories become stale, if they're told in the same way again and again and again. big one is tempted to give a first response to your question saying, well, we need to tell the stories. but i think, that as an all things, even the bible, has to be freshly appropriated by each

generation. there are different things that we find to be of note in the past, different variations of the story that become a part of the way we want to tell them. we want to be accountable to what we actually know by way of evidence, not make things up the way -- has done. the way some very well-intentioned people have done in their accounts of early america, on a more positive dimension. and actives of slavery and things like that weren't a part of our history. we have to contend with those things. i think a fresh retelling, which is something that i welcome, i've done a little bit of myself, is one way to do that. because the story continues to

be a story about us, it can bear within itself all the resources of various ways of telling the story. because it's still our story. and that gives it life. >> all these gentlemen are involved in that task in some way, in trying to tell that story. maybe just unpack that a little more, fresh ways to tell the story we tell ourselves about who we are. >> -- i love to tell the story. >> this is my story, this is my song. >> -- those hams is that the story gets built into you. and you don't want to escape it. so, you live it. you don't tell it. i love to tell the story because it's true. you live it.

and it is living it out that transmits it. this idea that we taught ourselves of virtue it's a fascination, obsession that we have that is simply unjustifiable. we can form our selves into virtue. berger is what we do, when we talk about. yes, their expectations. it is informing therefore to be able to convey, especially with the rise of generations, that they should perform at high levels. and they should respond to moral events. but that's not telling stories, that is saying, shape up. do the right thing. the intended. all those common injunctions which shape character. we want industry enough, we want fortitude, we want justice.

we want beliefs. but in the modern era, we tend to think that believes convey -- and by doing that, we actually are removing the moral foundations themselves. if you don't understand -- observe how very religious people were seduced into talking about their values rather than their fate. not understanding where those very internal values came from. and what it means that your faith is only your belief -- >> i'm going to give somebody a quick chance. they want to respond, my friend? it looks like we have to go to a quick video clip. but jump in. >> i'll just say this. that's a, teacher when i first started teaching, i was a siege on the stage. telling everybody the story, the story how i interpreted it, of course. i found that the story didn't

stick very well with the students of that point. what really stuck with the students as when we started unpacking primary sources, they start weighing those sources and they start interpreting those sources. i helped them way those sources. and then they take that story on with themselves. >> in the beautiful way that bill allen did, it communicating historical empathy as you did, taking us into the life of this man on the mayflower in a way that, you know, we hardly ever do anymore. >> that is telling a story. i profoundly agree with everything that bill said. i do think that it indicates the importance of stories. if you think that story is are different from preaching precepts. polonium's tells layer tees, at the last minute when he's about to leave, it makes a comic scene and hamlet.

shakespeare wouldn't have agreed with that statement. that things like -- biographies of famous and great individuals that we read about and we think, i want to emulate that person. that is different from the kind of preset monger-ing that bell was talking about. it is a league that is sort of a middle grounding between precept and behavior, and i think that the stories can have that inspirational effect. because we want to imitate greatness when we see it. it draws us magnetic lee towards it. >> we need to see it incarnated, don't we? embodied. we have a very short clip, video clip, running through history over here clip. as an introduction to the mayflower compact project that

heritage has undertaken, in collaboration with our visa. i think we are ready to see that clip? yes. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> hi, i'm dave's thoughts from drive-through history. the mayflower compact was written by the pilgrims some 400 years ago. remarkably, that short document laid the foundation for key american principles such as the rule of law, property rights and religious liberty. to unpack this amazing story, let's head to where it all began, plymouth, massachusetts.

with no king appointed person on board the mayflower, with authority to take charge of the plymouth colony, the pilgrims gave themselves authority. and created their own government. they wrote the mayflower compact. the pilgrims called it a civil body politic. offend asian for political liberty. they created a political community of equals, and made a promise to one another. we are going to abide by the laws that we ourselves will write in the future. they're establishing a world in which economic relationships were based on contract, private property and economic freedom. just and equal laws, the mayflower compact was truly a unique document for that time in history. human beings are by nature-free, that applies and it definitely wide space to do many things.

including economic things. the mayflower compact helped establish principles of religious liberty and tolerance in the founding of america. the mayflower compact, its principles inspired the founding of the united states as a free republic, undergirding a system of political economy that would enable america to become the freest and most prosperous nation on earth. >> okay, lots of resources. have a little round of applause for that. [applause] lots of resources available up there. the people, the curriculum, the teachers guide, all sorts of resources we've been working on. i think eric is going to close off with some closing remarks. but i want to, first off, let's have another round of applause for this all-star panel and discussion. [applause]

i never get invited to be on the all-star panels for some reason, but i get to moderate them. great to be with you guys, terrific discussion. eric, take it away. >> sure, i would close by first thanking our team of sponsors tonight. the museum of the, bible religious institute and the religious freedom foundation. thank you to all of them for making this possible. tonight, we started with the idea that ideas have consequences. we've heard about bad ideas like the french revolution and the consequences that flowed from that. i kind of revolution-ism, we've had it at the russian revolution, the chinese revolution, it happened in cambodia and again and again. the things that tear down rather than buildup. so the projects that we've talked about tonight or exactly that. they tear down, ben buildup. i think a closing framework is to think about e pluribus unum.

out of many, one. the stories we've been talking about tonight are about how the pilgrims and other seeds after the mayflower compact. the charter of the commonwealth of virginia, later the constitution of massachusetts, written by john adams. the 12 documents before the declaration of independence. and then the declaration of independence. the u.s. constitution, the speeches of lincoln, the reflections of jefferson. and on and on and on. t r, fdr, jfk, ronald reagan. there is a set of seeds, they are in civil society as well. they're in our poets and our artists and in our statesman. they're also in our churches and our families. there is this consistent theme about individual agency, individual responsibility. the fundamental right of the

individual to seek transcendent truth and live their life and raise their family in that religious liberty. and on and on and on. i think that binding narrative that we could have today, that is not divisive but rather creative, in the good sense progressive, to use the word from where we started tonight. it's if we return to this idea of a shared american identity that, within that, is diverse and rich and vibrant. but it is committed to the central trust of respect for the other. and those things come from these religious roots like of all the way back to what was near and dear to the pilgrims the religious understanding of what makes us human. and why humanity is a shared enterprise. e pluribus unum. well, again, thank you all for being with us tonight. and help me think joe and our panelists one more time. [applause] >> jeffrey frank discussed his book, the trials of harry as

truman, which revisits truman's presidency. including the end of world war ii, the beginning of the cold war and the dropping of the first nuclear bombs. here's a portion of the top. >> as one press conference i quote toward the end, he's very shaky, doesn't seem to even know something, he was recalling that he had given stolen an ultimatum when he hadn't. he hadn't given an ultimatum. and he got sick, he had a terrible flu the summer of 52. and then he had the steele strike, which didn't have to happen. if it is the steel factory is and the supreme court, they should not, it's a supreme court of his appointees and roosevelt appointees. one justice compared this to the sort of thing that george bush it would do. so, he had a very shaky --