org. and also in sundays on c-span two to watch all of your thank you all so much for. coming out today, if this is your first time at it, we're welcome. if this is not your first time, if you have been here for

another event, if you've purchased a book from us or if you've just seen podcast video and popped your head in to see, we're all about welcome back. we so excited to have you here to welcome and adam nagourney for a discussion of andrew's new giuliani the rise and tragic fall of america's mayor. in a five page review for the new yorker, louis maynard described kurtzman's giuliani giuliani as, quote, a lively new biography that explores how the man once as america's mayor fell to disgrace. lloyd green of the calls it masterful and engrossing. and chris machine of the angeles times says that kurtzman cuts the myths and caricature that is all too to find giuliani that kurtzman knows, the man better than the pundits who often scratch heads about the giuliani they thought they knew in giuliani the rise and tragic fall of america's mayor kurtzman, who was with giuliani at the world trade center at 911 and has followed his career, conducted hundreds of interviews to write an insightful portrait of rudy giuliani from the beginnings of his rise to

ruinous role as donald trump's personal detailing, his political heights as a celebrated prosecutor, and transformed new york city mayor to the lows of his involvement in trump's impeachment trials. political ostracizing, legal japanese and financial difficulties. as andrew's publicist, publisher simon schuster had put it, this is the remarkable story about how it all began and how it came crashing down. so before we start, let me formally introduce andrew and adam. andrew kirtzman has covered religious for three decades as a political reporter for print and television. he began as a hall reporter and then wrote what considered the definitive book about giuliani's. he was with giuliani on the morning of september 11th and chronicled their experience. he has covered more than a dozen national political campaigns and hosted of new york's most widely watched political shows, winning multiple emmy awards. he's written for the new york times, the washington post, the new republic and other publications and authored a book about the bernie scandal. he appears regularly on cnn and

msnbc to discuss politics and government. and joining us to discuss the book is adam nagourney is the west coast cultural correspond it for the new york times. before that, he served eight years as the paper's los angeles bureau chief, eight years as the paper's chief national correspondent, and four years as its metropolitan political reporter. nagourney is the coauthor of out for good the struggle to build a gay rights in america, published by simon and schuster in 99. and he's currently writing a book on the contemporary history of the new york times crowd publishing, crown publishing be published in fall of 2023. please help me in welcoming andrew kirtzman and adam nagourney adam nagourney. thank you all for being here. andrew. thank you for. letting me be part of this and we're going to talk more about probably 40 minutes or so and then we're going to open it up to questions so they get really questions. edward said the introduction

this is the second book you've written about rudy giuliani. tell us what made you decide to back to him again as a target and what were you hoping to do or accomplish that was different? sure. sure. so thank you for having me here. so, i mean, the first book was about basically rudy giuliani's rise. this book is about rudy giuliani's and fall. i mean i've been covering rudy giuliani 30 years. i started out as the giuliani reporter new york one news and as you said wrote a book about him in 2000. i was with him. september 11th and wrote more about that afterwards. and i've been writing about him ever, ever since. and when giuliani joined trump's orbit and started making news, it was just obvious that there was another part of this story. right. and so simon schuster me to write another biography this time again instead of just the

rise, kind of where he is right now. how how is experience been different this time it was last time in terms of your thoughts about him looking a little bit more into how you judged him, but your thoughts, your researching, you approach that he's a much different figure than he was when he was america's mayor. i totally yeah, totally. i mean, when i started covering, he i mean, he's this is one of the most epic and fall stories of our lifetimes. i mean, he was arguably the most the transformative prosecutor of the 1980s, the most transformative mayor in the 1990s. he was, you know, the hero of 911. there was there was a poll taken after 911 which showed that he was more popular than the pope. i mean, this is a city incredible new york. so it was a now i mean, part of why giuliani had got into so much trouble is because he

became this world figure. i mean, i don't think i need to tell all of you, you know, what happened on that. george bush was, you know, george h.w. bush was out of, you know, out of sight. and it was giuliani who was the face of leadership on that horrible day. and he could go to any corner of the globe and be, you know, venerate hated as you know as this hero. and that's kind of what he was able to leverage for financial advantage. and also got him in trouble in ukraine. and you've got a lot of really excellent reviews. you haven't read them, i think praise you should be happy with that. they all to start with the same line, what happened to rudy? right. which i realize is something we've all been debating for 40 years over dinner tables and stuff. so was that your question coming into the project as well? and how did you answer it? i mean, i'm sure ask and everything i happened to ask, i mean, that is why i wrote it. i mean, everyone had the same question, like what happened to this hero?

what happened to this man? and, you know, in a word, i think the answer desperation. he was desperate for power kind of on the way up. i mean the man we could talk about, kind of his, you know, unusual childhood. but, you know, coming out of his childhood, this is a man who was just driven to succeed at all costs. the desperation was kind of paid off. right. he was brilliant at absolutely brilliant. right. and achieved a prosecutor. you know, the two pivot points of the story, his life are 911, the kind of the summit of his whatever ambitions, and then the 2008 presidential race when everything came crashing down and, that desperation to succeed after 28 became a desperation to cling to the relevance and the power he once had. and i think the key to

understanding happened to giuliani is. that is, that effort after 2008, which is complete crash and burning humiliation to recapture what lost. and he was just willing to do anything. donald trump was kind of his meal ticket. if i ask you the same questions we as those folks. sorry, sorry. yeah. if i ask you the same question, no better. sorry if i'd ask the same question three years ago before you began the research here with the answer have been different or would you have known the answer and this sort of gets to the whole question of researching doing a book about. right, right, right. well, it's a it's a very good question. i mean, we my researcher, dave holley, and i worked very hard over three years to kind of kind of drill down and find kind of what was going on behind the scenes that led this incredible car crash of a career. a there were so many kind of

moral compromises we discovered along the way that were just they kind of filled in the blanks for us. they kind of explained the path that he was on or i should, the downward path that he was on. i mean, from, you know, i didn't realize that this but was prosecutor who was cheating on his wife. there was you know there were there were so times when he was given the opportunity to do the right thing and he chose the thing for his own for his own. the i mean, the. the two most glaring of when he could have done the right thing and took the other path were right after 911 when he could have, you know, you know, he would godlike figure he could have kept that that image and instead he decided to cash and one of the like the most extreme extreme revelations or extremely interesting revelations was just

how cynical business was giuliani partners and how cynically he cashed in on his fame and. then the other kind of credible moral compromise was his decision to endorse donald trump. you know, he he felt donald trump a carnival barker or according to one of his chief aides, spoke to him at an interview. they him his aides begged him not to endorse trump. but as i said before, trump was his meal ticket. he had no other choice. no one else was knocking on rudy giuliani's door after the flameout in 2008, asking for his endorsement and trump needed giuliani and giuliani he needed trump. and thus, you know, an infamous couple was born. i wonder, did your opinion of then change over this period? i mean, you've observed him more than pretty much anyone in politics, in journalism. is it less now than it was if we

talk in like thousand and four, before the 2008 campaign? i mean, look, you can't watch what's happened to giuliani. and it destruction or his attempt destroy a democratic election and have any admiration for the man. i mean, his he's kind of an empty vessel of what he once was. you know, do i respect his, you know, going, you know, towards the beginning? i do. still and i took a lot of a lot of grief for giving him that credit in my first book. and give him the credit again of this book. this sort of gets to the question a little bit more. has giuliani then changed or was you always like this with him? i mean this is a big question about figures, history all the time. do they change or were they always what they were? what what did you conclude the end of this book? i mean, after interviewing i know dozens and dozens, his closest friends and advisers, there's not one person who felt that he was like this back then,

not one. it's relatives. i mean, we've we covered the landscape. there was no one who actually knew him, who was close with him, who felt that, oh, yeah, this just kind of, you know, he was always like this. but america just found out when he, you know, went to work with trump. and i don't believe it either. i mean, giuliani, you know, whether you loved him or hated was brilliant, strategic level, not level headed. he was never withdrawn. trump but you know, when when he was i mean, look, you were you and i were reporters of the new york daily news in the late 9080s. right. you would we had both witnessed giuliani as a prosecutor, and we'd also witnessed, you know, the dinkins administration. that's another kind of topic. but i think that, you know, if people only know giuliani today, they know him as someone who kind of say anything, do

anything had like lack of logic, just who's basically kind of lost. that is not what he was like back then. i mean, he had a like ferocious temper. he would go after people, you know, in an almost sadistic. but he did it with a purpose. he would find and he would find an enemy or someone to vilify in order get what he wanted. he wasn't just standing up there, you know in front of the press and just kind of taking a shot at everyone who now there was he was a very, very strategic a guy, ruthless, a ruthless person. that is not what he is. so the answer is no. he wasn't always this. so let's go to our sorry. there were terms of what he became. but that's that's another answer. so let's down a little bit to what you write about what you found. explain what happened there or. at least illustrate. one of the most interesting parts of the book is when you lay out what happened after his 2008 presidential campaign, he ran briefly president and it was

embarrassment, i would say, but because i was there at that rally in florida where no one else was there, i was i was there. you were there. you were there. yeah. sorry. yeah. but then was really it really i don't think anyone knew about this that he up at mar a lago with donald trump you talk about this is this when he first established this relationship led to this alliance over dwight rice? well, one of the most extraordinary discoveries i made came in my interviews with judith giuliani, his his now ex-wife. so judith, the enormously controversial figure in giuliani land, considered i mean, the personification of evil by giuliani's friends and and aides she has never spoken extensively with the press before. and i you know, i pursued her very aggressively and. you know, one day my caller id flashed on my phone. that was judith. and i was, you know, thank you,

god. and it led 15 hours of interviews done in the hamptons and the story that was most striking was about the weeks after his in the 2008 presidential race. so as she the story. ju just to back up a second, giuliani was the front runner in the 2008 republican primary for a year or a year and that was because it was you know the hero of 911 once the once the story sorry once the primaries start he's in and out in just four weeks. he leaves in, you know, totally in the allegation after the the florida primary with just one delegate and is just shot as a figure. his ninth 11 halo is tarnished. he's, you know, business starts declining. you know, had, you know,

exploited. 911 heroism heroism to make. $100 million in five years at giuliani partners. but now suddenly he's just kind of a spent force, according judith. he into this deep depression and she kind doesn't know what to do with him and he starts drinking and he is filled with self-pity. it's like i've lost my and relevance is a very, very important term in the giuliani lexicon. the important thing to giuliani above everything else is that he'd relevant and his was that kind of was over. and she according to judy if she takes him it's the middle of february now and. it's in a miserable cold new york winter takes her to her parents house in palm beach, and he kind of lays on the couch there, doesn't get off the

couch, kind of smokes. cigarets cigars in his bathrobe and. she's basically painting a picture of someone who's iraq and reporters start circling and she's like, i got to get him out of and who comes to their rescue. but donald trump, he's like, come to our lago and this is this is like this is a mind story she told me that i've never heard and i don't that no one ever heard. according to judith, he gives her this villa, which is connected to it's across the street from our lago. it's connected by underground tunnels. and so the two of them were able to and go without being cited by the press and. you know, again, according to judith and i'll talk about her credibility a moment, but according to her. he was unquote falling down,

shitfaced, you know, wherever kind of wherever they went, you know, the alcohol is just the kind of and she describes a train wreck. she also describes trump as being enormously protective and is a story in the book about how she's she's doing yoga with melania on the beach mar a lago and suddenly she sees this employee of maria lago shooting pictures of them. and, you know, judith, you know, it kind of bugs out. melania called donald donald comes racing. the scene confronts his employee was that i'm sure he was a maintenance person and i want to i want your camera let's see it. the guy handsome camera and he's like, you're fired. so you know he takes him under his his wing and it's, you know, hard to believe that giuliani

not eternally grateful for let me give the big caveat is there are only two people who really know the truth, how much she was. and i think there was some exaggerate in is it's impossible to know. i to all of his closest friends all of his closest aides who he was off the radar for month and a half he was gone we knew that he was in a very dark place we know we knew that he, you know, was having a kind of crash after the race. but judith and rudy were together then. and so how much she you know embellished bill will we'll never know even if giuliani decides talk about it god knows what he would to you. a couple of questions. one is, you know, if he had an alcoholic problem when he was mayor before, in other words, is there a precedent to this that makes her less or more credible? right. so he he was always a drinker

but not an alcoholic through his early years, he'd love to party. he he hung out at cigar bars. lots of, you know, scotch was his favorite drink. or they'd go to italian restaurant and he'd bring, you know, the staff of city. and there would be a lot of wine. he was the cigar, but there's a difference between being, you know, kind of person and being an alcoholic. so the answer is no. i mean, he was again, the seeds might been planted, but the alcoholism after the 2008 race. and do you have any sense of that continue to be a factor in behavior since then, including when he was going now i guess is a pretty question. i'm thinking of that famous press conference he did outside, whatever it was ritz-carlton. but the four seasons, right. was called that so? i mean, the most egregious example of giuliani's drinking was on election night in the white house. and if you remember, at the 911 committee hearing, jason miller,

thank you, actually testified in public that he was drunk on election night. and you the implications of that are just absolutely boggling. i mean, should i tell that story, it's just it's unbelievable story. so i mean, it's just it's just beyond so it's election day and, the afternoon of election. giuliani goes on bannon's radio show. and i just want to say that again, i want to do a shout out for dave, my researcher, the poor guy had to listen to giuliani's radio show and podcast every day for three years, but it was it was worth it because. i mean, we learned stuff that was happening under the radar and things he was saying that no else knew about. so he goes. on steve bannon's radio and he says tonight after the polls close.

we should declare victory as soon as we think like a little bit ahead, he says. what's the line? it's something like and and the mystery for the american public. so he goes election night at the white house. this, you know, cockamamie cockamamie idea, which is declare victory whether they want or not. so here he is and he was a kind of vilified figure. bye by trump's main stream republican campaign lawyers who thought he was just a crackpot and so he's not invited into the war room downstairs below the but he sets up a little office and right off of the main banquet hall with andrew his son and they're sitting there like at his laptop and he's starting to agitate for trump to announce he'd won. and it's net whatever it is,

10:00 at night, 11:00 at night. so the election lawyers downstairs and the war room get wind of this. and they you know, they ask him to come downstairs and he's drunk and he is just he is just, you know, adamant. he's like just victory. just declare. and they're like, where? like, what state should we say that? and he thinks he says michigan and he like it was behind in michigan. it it just made no sense and he's standing this it's just this great kind of cinematic moment and in the war room we're time is ticking away and they're trying to frickin you know watch returns and he's taking up all their time he's and scared to death rudy giuliani because he's got trump's ear and so you know

they go they have this conversation that goes on for days and finally they're like we got to get back to the office you know. and so trump goes back upstairs, finds trump in the residence and said, listen, you got to declare victory. and so trump at 1:00 in the morning gets up in the ballroom and announces he'd won. that's you know, i was going back was going to do with nathan. why do you think she was so cooperative? you and how how did you get her to do it? and do you think she realized just how damaging she was and talking about her husband, find out this drug, which is she? she's not an unbiased figure here. i mean, she's she's a very, very bright, very to it is very manipulative person. and so everything she is with kind of a motive. i mean if you watch now she's in this bitter divorce trial with

giuliani. and so i think whenever let me go back to answer part of the question. as i said, i'm trying to get judy speak with me and i'm calling her and i'm emailing her like nothing. and this goes on for months and i decide said, okay, let's get the address for single property they have and at the time the giuliani's had six homes and 11 country club i mean, injuries, words. what did she say? we were spending $250,000 a month on sheer fun fun. so nothing. so i just got all the addresses and i kind handwrote letters to her and mailed them to every single address. nothing that's got nothing. and as i said, one day i'm just in my living and suddenly she calls me months later. so her motive, so i think there was always a motive, which at

any given time was to hurt him. and i think you know, part of it was, you know bitter divorce. part of it may have been the, you know, angling for settlement, you know. so i don't mince words in the book that. she's kind of this paragon of virtue. she's not i haven't seen anyone deny what she's said. he certainly hasn't. i mean i kind of he has not tonight at all. in fact if you read if you read. sure. you all read the new york post every day was a story i know there was a story in the post about their hearing just a few weeks where they get into a fight, the hallway outside the courthouse and says, do you realize what you're doing to me? you're like ruining my reputation, all these charges. and she's like, well it's true. and so, yeah, he's never denied it. and yeah, okay. she's obviously never done. can you elaborate a little more about the trump giuliani relationship?

i don't recall anymore. i mean, obviously there will be the same circles within was mayor. were they friends in? what was the basis and how did what draws them to each other well that that the storyline coming from giuliani and trump and from their people that they were never very close until 2016. so one of the benefits of going back to the mayoralty so many years later is now the giuliani archives are to reporters and i found this terrific back and forth over a massive develop that trump decided to build near the united nations. and it's a great narrative that we pieced together from all these letters going, flying and forth between trump and giuliani. giuliani's aides, where there's some there's some agreement somewhere which says you cannot build a a structure higher than the general assembly building in the area of the united nations.

so trump decides that he wants to build the largest residential tower in america. and it's like 90 stories high. and he's and his explanation is, oh, everyone knows that's that that agreement was never signed. it's like so everyone knew it except for the world except for the people who signed probably. right. so he kind of very masterfully works. city government. he gets a building permit and when the residents of the u.n. like whose views are going to be blocked, get wind of this they go ballistic and. there are all these letters we from walter cronkite to, you giuliani is mayor complaining about this and like begs him to stop this and giuliani is ignoring the letters. and walter cronkite is getting angrier and angrier not just that he won't side with him, but

he's not even returning his letters. and so the letters are increasingly kind of hostile. and then kofi annan, the general secretary, the secretary general, writes a letter, walter, the the chairman of citicorp, legendary ceo, he gets involved and giuliani literally ignores them. all these are at the time like far more powerful than donald trump. right. far more important. but like, you know, the is probably taking a lot of pleasure in sticking it to some of the, you know, the most powerful people in new york. at the same time, he is speaking at donald trump's mother's funeral, his father's funeral. and if any of you have ever seen the video of giuliani in drag at bergdorf's with with trump, where giuliani's in drag and he trump nuzzled his nose into

giuliani's fake breasts, i mean, the guys were just they they just loved each other going back all the way to the mayoralty and the seat. sorry. and this was due to that is that is trump is trump show of loyalty to giuliani that he does not show to other people in his inner circle have a sense of that from your research. i mean yeah that's one of the amazing things we learned i write about in the book. i mean i mean you all you know all know as well as i do that you know, someone makes trump look bad and trump like, you know, dumps them in a blink of an eye. he has no loyalty, his aides. but giuliani, you humiliated trump more than any single by far in his like his catastrophic like interviews on on television right. the four seasons press conference. i mean any number the borat film, i mean, the fact that trump never cut giuliani loose

was just an extraordinary thing. his we interviewed a lot of aides around trump who said that trump has an affection and a whisper that for giuliani that has for almost no one else that trump talks about. giuliani in a tone that he reserved for almost no one else. and if you hear trump talking, he'll he'll always start his whatever, introduce introduction of giuliani's saying, here's the greatest mayor in the history, new york city. right. there's just a veneration for him. my theory is that giuliani formed the template for trump's presidency that it was that he watched giuliani as a developer from a distance and watched his bombastic style the way. would target people for destruction. right. the that disregard for norms his like sadistic efforts to destroy

his and you know trump at the time was politically savvy you know back in the nineties he probably didn't even watch the news he certainly knew nothing about policy and i think probably everything that trump about how to become president was he learned from reading the new york every day about the giuliani there will be so basically america blame giuliani for trump is that fair way. i said yeah. julia cheney was trump before. there was trump. so this was a friendship, the two of them, more than just a transactional relationship, right? okay. it was both. it was both. they they needed each other. you know, if you fast forward to a you know, after biden won on election day, you know, everyone, you know, the question about giuliani was why is he telling trump everything he wants to hear? why is he telling trump that you've won when he'd actually

lost and you know, the answer in my wasn't that. oh, he was just trying to curry favor with donald it's that he needed trump to win he needed to to overturn the election. trump was his all was separating giuliani from bankruptcy possibly from prison certainly from irrelevance. he needed trump to overturn that election. i want to get you to read part of the book here you write about the ukraine scandal that about his strange relationship with ukrainians who ultimately were convicted of crimes for their work with giuliani. can you talk about what was on behind the scenes during that bizarre episode? i think you're right about that in the book. right. well, lev parnas, igor fruman, they were kind of like the bobbsey twins who who walked through or experian, the whole ukraine disaster from beginning

to end. and now i believe they're both in jail. so there's i, i wanted to get a sense of kind of what was going on behind the scenes that he kind of hooked up with these two oddballs. so i learned a great story that i wrote about. i'll just read you a very small morsel of it. i hesitate to tell this story. people think i dreamt the whole thing. giuliani recall the 2002, but is literally true that i was nearly, as he tells his father, dressed him in a new york yankees uniform on the streets of brooklyn when was a child putting him in harm's in a neighborhood where love of the brooklyn dodgers was almost a religion i was five years old and playing in that field when four or five kids grabbed me stood, me up by a tree and put a noose around my neck, he wrote in leadership my my grandmother it all from her window and started until the kids ran away. and it was all because i was

wearing yankees uniform. he told the story many times over years, as much a testament to moral convictions as proof of his devotion to the team. i'm a sports fan who's lifelong don't evaporate when exposed. and he wrote his loyal the yankees was part of his identity was at the stadium when roger maris hit his 61st home run when. reggie jackson sent three consecutive homers sailing in game six of the 1977 world series when the team won its first championship in 18 years. in 96, he wore yankee jerseys, decorated his office with yankees memorabilia, and wore a world, rings it was only fitting that he celebrated his 75th birthday at the stadium, the catered event on may 28th, 2019, was held at the george suite, the largest and most prestigious luxury box in the stadium no politicians were invited. it was strictly friends, family members and a sprinkling of

celebrity pals such as jeanine pirro from fox news and cindy adams from the new york post. the food was simple italian dishes from arthur avenue in the bronx, milkshakes, cookies and sprinkles and vibe was casual. each guest was given a red wine bottle with. giuliani's smiling face on it with an inscription. it was an inscription. rudy giuliani devoted father, loyal friend and passionately reader who united a city during its darkest hours with judith out of the picture is two children. caroline and andrew, who came to celebrate his milestone. long stretches of his of estrangement. people delivered sentimental toasts. it was beautiful, said levine, an old friend who organized the event and whose husband, randy levine, was the yankees president and a former mayor. it was emotional for those of us who had been on a long journey, rudy, there was some hope in the air.

giuliani a short, heartfelt speech pointing emotion to the presence of his children, who seemed close to tears and expressing his gratitude to be by so many relatives and friends. the crowd was filled with people had given much of their lives to him, only to find themselves left in the wake of his unseemly journey into donald trump's embrace. in truth, many of them were bitter at him for ruining his brand and thus theirs. those who made careers off of their association him were now being forced to apologize. it. he was a vilified figure in this city at the stadium. fans of the stadium were now booing him. quote, we were desperate at the time watching a man seemingly destruct self-destruct. mindy levine said. for one night, the father figure they respected seemed to. this was a sign of the rudy missed, she said. this was a sign of life as the party getting started, a security officer informed her that two men had arrived and,

insisting they'd been invited. she looked over to the entrance and saw to older men, looking noticeably out of their element. the officers said, their names were lev parnas and igor fruman. she approached the two and asked them who they knew at the party. rudy giuliani said she her way to the guest of honor. are these two people here? i don't know who they are, she told giuliani. he peered over towards the door. oh, no, no, no. they should be here. waved in the two meandered through the crowd like, tourists snapping pictures and pointing out yankee artifacts to each other. both spoke with a thick eastern european accents. levine if they were from israel thinking that perhaps they were a associates of prime minister benjamin netanyahu with a giuliani friend when they shook head. she pressed. she pressed them on where they came from, quote, i didn't get a straight answer. she said. some in the crowd that they looked like russian mobsters.

fruman seemed particularly suspicious with dark glasses and coke bottle. some referred to him as lurch, the butler from the addams family. he was the shier of the two constricted by his halting english and overshadowed by his gregarious business partner. where are they from? asked giuliani. i'll tell you later, he said. you're going to love them. but when parnas and fruman stuck out. but while parnas and fruman stuck out, conspicuously, the reality was that they were true insiders at the event, in a room supposedly made up of giuliani's closest friends. were the only people in the room who knew what he was up to and how haywire had gone. could. so we're going to take some questions from the audience now. three things, if you don't mind. identify yourself and the centers with, the question mark at the end and wait for the gentleman the microphone to get to you. so here we go.

hey, i'm ben and thanks, andrew this is just fascinating. and adam, really appreciate it. what was the biggest surprise in this decline? you know, as you followed this all years, what really surprised you in? the research and in this experience. right. i mean, it was really the gross immorality he of of some of actions. i mean this was a man who i said i covered i covered daily for eight years for new york one. i was with him a 911. i saw i saw him achieve greatness that day. i mean, i had a kind of a grudging respect him even though, you know, so much of he did was, you know, mind boggling but mind bogglingly mind numbingly sadistic. so i, you know, i always had kind of a grudging respect for him. but by the end of for this book, it's hard to have any for him.

the biggest surprise is i started saying before was what exactly went on at giuliani partners and that's you back in the day when giuliani partners, it was, you know, the new york times told me, had a reporter working almost full time on trying to crack nut. and he did a really good job kind of keeping it secretive. well, you know, years later, people much more willing to talk about it and, you know, the stories about how cynical the operation was just incredible. i mean, it was basically a branding company he was hired by all these fortune 500 companies and also some sleazier minor rich people to whitewash their reputation. when perdue pharma was accused of hooking a generation of young people on oxycontin, they hired giuliani, you know, ostensibly to give them consultation.

but all they was america's mayors imprimatur. he was he according to bob herbert, it's one of my favorite quotes in the book bob herbert, the new york times columnist, that soon after 911 writes this column saying, which begins the column begins. he walks through the city a god, and he quotes some, you know, person the street saying he's not god like he is god. so the this is bob herbert. that was bob herbert who was a huge critic of his. so you at any number of politicians are available as lobbyists. but only one was a godlike figure and that got a lot of and a lot of people in trouble out trouble. so that was a it might be too strong in saying that he really

cashed in on 911. you know, and now he cashed on 911. another been okay. yeah. hi. my name is ben. also, if i recall correctly from your first book, you gave him an opportunity. participate. he did participate. and then at some point stopped. did you ask him, did you try to out at this point and did he get back to you? sure, i did. i reached reached out to him and had this like like really fascinating text exchange with him. can i find this? actually, this is actually this is worth it. so we go that week. sorry, we go back and forth many times about whether you he'll cooperate or not and he you know, he's he seems kind of, you know, more or less open. so i right then in october 2019 and i reached out to him for an

interview, he was a central protagonist, the ukraine scandal at the time, the catalyst for president trump's first impeachment and a growing figure of ridicule over a series of bizarre television interviews. several days after, my first text to him, he responded, the timing was off and that i needed to through privileges. a week later, i wrote him again to give him a heads up about a forthcoming piece that i had written about him for the washington post. quote, it's focus on the moral aspect of your leadership which has always fascinated me. he writes back, quote, my moral compass has been clear to me. sometimes act in a politically correct way. and i am lionized and sometimes the same me comes to a different conclusion in good faith. the democratic regime of thought and i am demonize. and sometimes you really to uncover their underlying corruption. and they try to destroy you. and it was really cool. it's like this is really intense. and so we we go back and forth

for a while and he's like, all right, well, you know i always believe, you know. the potential for getting a fair shot. and then goes dark. and his soon afterwards, the fbi. fbi raided his home and took his cell phone away. and that was that was it. i think you have not heard from him since the book was. well, there is i have not. but there's one more story that's worth telling, which is i was a week from finishing the book. little, little a week away from finishing book. and i get a phone call from a close giuliani aide. i will name. and he says, hey, did you try to reach rudy yesterday? and said, no. i said, but i did try. to reach his girlfriend, maria ryan, who has become a very big person in his life. and he said, because i just got this text from julian, he's saying under no circumstances anyone to talk to andrew kirtzman andrew kirtzman.

and i was like, all right. but like to this his aide, i'm like, you've given me seven interviews right now. and like, it's a little late. claire. hi, i'm claire. so i've got ask you, first of all, huge congratulations all of this. you know, just to follow this man for 30 years and to chronicle an evolution is and revisit a subject you've already written on is just like amazing in it. but i ask you for a for a moment to look into, your crystal ball won't hold you to any of this, but just wanting to. so obviously faces a lot of legal reputational financial challenges right now. i guess we've seen people that and fall and then manage to rise again or achieve some level of redemption. do think that he'll be one of those people. no, i don't.

i think i mean, it's a good question. i mean, he's had more second acts than than anyone our in our lifetime. i mean, he is had catastrophic falls and then manages keep rising again. but he's like 77 or 78 years old right now. he's he says himself, he may have to declare bankruptcy. the justice department and, this georgia grand jury, are considering indicting him. you know, he's his law license has been suspended in new york and d.c. he's a laughing stock, much of the country. he i was speaking with someone the other day who was telling me about how he's still at mar a lago, still invited to mar a lago, still greeted by kind of the maga, you know, hardcore crowd. america's mayor. he's still america's mayor to some americans, but he's gone. he's. he's done. he's done. do you think following up on class question do you think of trump is reelected that trump

would put him in his cabinet? no, i don't. for all the reasons you just said. no, i think trump realizes he was an embarrassment and i think he would possibly keep him in his kitchen cabinet. but you know trump doesn't like to be embarrassed. he probably couldn't get confirmed. he very small right? totally. hi, my name is steve. so i always remember the press conference where he announced that he was leaving donna hanover and told everybody but donna hanover. and then she had to hear it through the press. and then there was story that his you know, his valedictorian address, trinity school, and she didn't invite him. and judith, but he showed up anyway. so i'm just wondering, have you did you have you ever been able to talk to donna and caroline, have they been. because it just seems like they would have a lot to say about donna wouldn't talk. donna and hasn't spoken to

anyone since she left as first lady. she's very effectively put that behind her in fact wrote a whole book about second chances, second acts. so, you know, if you're out there, donna hanover, i don't know. i'll give you a i'll give you my email address. still interested. there's there's always a third button. and and following up with the question, did either the children, andrew or caroline. caroline. caroline, speaking of you right there. actually going to pass on that question? that's okay. let me teach. right. okay. next book. book. hi, i'm patrick. andrew, congratulations when you started working on the book, were there any assumptions that you sort of started out about giuliani his life, his career or conventional wisdom at the time that had ended up being upended

or subverted? or were you really were oh, that it wasn't that. it was this sort of just through your research and what you and david found. i'm mean, it goes back to the question about surprise is trying to think was there anything where i was like oh i was completely wrong. i'd to say no. i think there was a lot of nuance stuff and there are more facts that came out that were just like mind blowing. more than kind of convincing me that i'd been wrong all along about certain. i mean, i, you know, i've covered the guy so closely for all these years, it would be hard to surprise by his character, but a lot of the details that came out painted a picture of a really deeply, deeply cynical, immoral person. and that it was of it was i guess you could call it a surprise that he was really operated at that extreme. all right.

his mike, your mike's coming michael. my name is michael. tell us about his early childhood. you to earlier. what was it like? right. well that was that was an eye opening experience to actually dig dig deep into his childhood. wayne barrett, the great invest the great late investigative reporter who had one of the great scoops of the giuliani, you know, oeuvre in, which he learned that giuliani's father was jailed. sing, sing for for robbing a. so that was i that was common knowledge and you know, pretty extraordinary. but we read this psychological profile was written by a court psychiatrist once he was arrested for robbing this

milkman and this psychiatrist's report revealed that in his opinion or diagnosis was pathologist harold giuliani. he was a pathological deviant, someone who only saw things in terms of himself, always felt he was the victim. does that sound familiar. he was harold was, enormously violent. enormously. i mean, he he cracked kneecaps for for a living. his for his uncle's bar in in brooklyn. julia himself has written about his father a like extremely kind of of diverse way, in which on one hand, he describes father as his most more influence. he'll say my father taught me to

always my taxes. my father taught me to, you know, always respect, you know, women and like all these life lessons. on the other hand, he was growing up with someone who only cared about himself, and it was extraordinarily violent. giuliani has written about the guy's temper. so the father, the mother, helen, was a teacher. and of very bright woman and a doting giuliani was an only child. and by all accounts, she was like very, very loving. but had an unforgiving side, which she held him to such high standards odds that he could come home with a, you know, a minus. and she would just wouldn't even talk to him. and between the, you know, the father and the mother, you know, it produced someone as i said before who was just driven to succeed at all costs, you know, either trying to prove himself, you know, to the mother, he

could never please or to prove or trying to prove that he could rise above his father. and god knows what was going on at that house at the time. yes. i mean. i can't wait to read the book. what happened in the. oh eight election? how and why it go so badly wrong for. because it sounds like that was the pivotal event of sort of late. giuliani that really broke him so what went wrong? can you be a little more what went wrong? what was how did he go from leading the polls? the public polling, and then to ending up with one delegate and lasting, oh, the 28 race? well, i have a whole chapter about that and it was you know could argue that the seeds of disaster were planted before he even announced plans because he was a pro-choice republican basically from york.

but know there was an argument to be made at the time that he was in a category of his own because he was america's mayor and a god like figure and more popular than the pope. so, you know, given that the he ran was just comically bad, you know, of it was that he had nothing to talk about except for 911. and so he would go and i've seen it in the book in which i describe he'd go to kind a campaign event in like the small new hampshire towns and warn the threat of terrorism. and like these people are like, well, you know, we're fine here, you know, not really an issue. and so that was a huge problem and that led to joe biden's famous joke about. you know the only thing giuliani talks does is give a noun a verb and 911. right and i swear to god that joke might be responsible for of the venom that giuliani has

unleashed in, you know, the last decade towards joe. and then there were countless humiliations during that, those four weeks and that involved. and there was just revelation in the press after. another during his campaign about there was a mystery first husband she had never revealed that she had worked as a medical official at a company that performed stapling on puppies. what else? there was there was another like crazy crazy story that was constantly throwing him off kilter. and then there was just constant warring between. judith and everyone else. and so the tension was just like off the charts anyway. it was a crash and burn burn. yeah, yeah. but, you know, it's the way.

i was just wanting to take this a slightly from the individual to the larger field. what does your experience looking at giuliani a god and trump got us tell you about the great theory or great person theory of history. they seem so diminished, but bent history and that's going to take us decades to straighten it out. right. always the last question. there you go. that was a oh, an easy one. look, i mean without giuliani as mayor in the the nineties. you know, i would argue new york would not have turned and recovered as as well as it did that know despite the brutal tactics of his police force that it a macro level from an economic level it worked. i mean there there were neighborhoods all over the boroughs that were unsafe to walk the streets at night and

which had absolutely no economic activity that, completely rebounded because of what happened. so, you know, that probably wouldn't have happened without kind of this, you know, hard nosed, you know, take no prisoners style. giuliani, i mean i mean, he was not a great man by the time he you know, went to work for trump. i mean, i'm i doing well here. like, i'm not sure. right. right. i guess you could answer. i think i think through the force of his will, he accomplished a great deal. and for both good, bad, kind of for the betterment of kind of the city kind of. in his early years to the absolute of the country towards the end. and already he was a big enough figure to have carried two books. i think about your your question a lot, but it's a big enough to carry your book. so i think that kind of answers that he somewhat fits that theory and who's going to stay

behind and sign books and you have to buy so buy lots of books thank you for coming it was really a pleasure seeing all you guys on facebook. thanks so.

welcome? we are on less than seven, so we're making good progress today. we're going to get into red scare last listen. obviously, we talked little bit about the role of comics in kind

of building a