letter. sign up for the american history tv news letter today and be sure to watch american history tv every saturday or any time online at cspan.org/history. weekends on c-span 2. every saturday, american history tv documents america's story. and on sundays, book tv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span 2 comes from these television kpaebs and more, including chatter communications. ng cspan dot orgh history. well, it's such a pleasure to be able to introduce dr. holly >> charter communications along with these companies supports

c-span 2 as a public service. well, it's such a pleasure to be able to introduce dr. hully, a mayor who has been a dear friend of mine for decades now. we were trying to calculate the years, but it was back in the 1900s when we first met one another. isn't that amazing how that sounds now? holly, dr. mayor is now a professor from the college in the graduate school at -- in my hometown of pittsburgh, pennsylvania, where she taught for many decades. she did two stints as chair of the history department there after joining ducane after receiving her phd at the college of william and mary. she also has served as the visiting johnson chair of military history at the u.s. army war college out in carlisle, pennsylvania.

the carlisle barracks, and is currently at west point where she's serving at the charles bowl ewe wing professor of history. she also has been commissioned, went through rotc and served for the u.s. army of reserves. you're recognizable as a military person still. she's an author of a whole slew of articles about the military and historical -- i'm sorry, the military political social sort of intersections of history in the era of the american revolution. her first book belonging to the army camp followers and community during the american revolution still imprints and an intellectual text for studying this period of time. she's here tonight to talk about her hot off the press -- i think this is literally hot off the

press, the continental army and the american union. canada, what does canada have to do with the american revolution? so please join me in warmly welcoming dr. holly mayor. >> thank you so much. it is wonderful to be here with all of you and to share in this community of history and the revolution in particular and to of course examine this particular very unusual regimen or an uncommon regimen for an uncommon revolution as we could also say for it. so i'm starting off, and i just want to point out that that is an image. it is a painting that is on the cover of my book. so i figured i might as well say kudos to him as well for helping illustrate my book as well as of course being here in many other -- his other illustrations and paintings in about a month that you will be able to see.

so well worth it. wonderful. so with congress's own, i want to talk a few things about the regimen in particular, and then actually spend more time talking about sergeant major john h. hopkins, who was the person who introduced me to this regimen through his writings in that journal that i found at the historical society of pennsylvania. so i wanted to take it a step further to talk about this with you -- and make sure i'm going in the right direction here -- is to pick up and talk about the congress's own regimen, which actually went through about three or four different names through its lifetime. as this uncommon regimen, it was first formed actually in january of 1776 authorized by the continental congress for moe ses hasan as the colonel and lieutenant colonel edward antil as the second in command.

and it was commissioned as the second canadian regiment. so it brings us to this point about why a canadian regiment, and i ask students, did you know canada was involved? well, yeah, they had to retreat from quebec. and that was the end of cap da. not really. not by any means. but while the american invading force was up in canada, it was already starting to recruit canadians to join in this rebellion. certainly the continental congress was sending out declarations to the canadians essentially saying, come join us, rebel with us. you might think it goes back to the enemy of my enemy is my friend. so the french canadians at one point had been the enemies of much of the new englanders and those who has been fighting the

wars through a series of imperial conflicts. at this point, it was let's invite the canadians in because we truly want this to be a continental rebellion. let us have a true continental congress with canadian representatives. let us have a continental army, which includes canadians as well as we invite others to join us in what was first a rebellion, a defense of the rights of americans or these continental provincials in the early part. and after july of '76, ultimately a rev russian for the -- revolution of the country itself. the first renl meant was by james living ston who had already been in ax up there, so he got the first canadian. so to give you a little background on moe ses hasan, he has been in rogers rangers, and

he had actually gotten a commission with the 44th regiment of foot, which ultimately led him to retire in the montreal region and right around st. john in canada itself. so i like to point this out is that here was an american who did get a british commission as opposed to washington who did not. and hasan was really torn about which way he was going to go in this conflict. he was getting a pension from the british government for his service during the seven-years war. he was right there on the border lands, if you can see it up there in canada up along st. john just south of montreal. would he give up that pension and those lands to join in this american rebellion. and at first, he wasn't sure. he was really on the fence in those border lands which way he was going to go. ultimately in the end as we know, he decided to join with the americans that he could

create his own regiment and that he had command of that regiment, the second canadian regiment in this case. so hasan is not the person that i really want to talk about. i want to continue on with this regiment on a few other points. second canadian was then in the retreat from canada. at that point, it had lost probably about half of its recruits on that retreat down to crown point and then ultimately into albany. through the summer of '76, there was a true question as to whether or not these canadian regiments would continue. canada was not choosing to join in this rebellion, so why would you choose to join this regiment? the original idea behind it was it would be like all the other colonies that had states as it would have its own it ration of a regiment.

but if it's not joining a rebellion, what are we doing with this regiment? ultimately, what happened is congress went back to hasan and said, yes, we will reauthorize your second canadian regiment that you can recruit among the canadian refugees that were up around albany, certainly recruit those that had come with the american forces, but we're also authorizing you to recruit among all of the states. so here is another unique factor about this second canadian regiment is that it's allowed to recruit elsewhere. well, this brings up the next point. how many people from elsewhere would actually want to join the canadian renl meant. if they're from pennsylvania, new jersey, maryland, connecticut, rhode island, which is where they're trying to recruit. and in the middle of that, certainly by the end of '76 going into '77, we see then the

advertisements going out, the recruiting going out for congress's own regiment. this is not something necessarily that congress itself had authorized. it seems to have come out of the regiment itself. i think it probably came from lieutenant colonel edward antil who was part of this because he was more of a thinker than hasan. hasan was always really rather irritating as an individual. i think his commanding officer saw that. certainly commander cox said he was blessed with the most oxford temperaments he had ever seen. but give this, it starts going out for recruiting for congress's own. so you can see what's going on here. you can't recruit for second canadian among all of them, but you can for congress's own guard. here it's got elite status.

this sounds really good. this is better than just simply what the first pennsylvania, really? the first virginia? why not congress's own. and they did tremendously well. this regiment was authorized a thousand men. so much bigger than the common continental infantry regiment. so it was authorized 1,000, and by the spring of '77, it was close to 900 men that had enlisted in this regiment. did they all stay? absolutely not. some guys joined up, got their bounty money, and headed off. so we've got that. they don't all stay. but it was tremendously successful recruiting under congress's own. unfortunately, this regiment didn't always get along well with others. it got a rather bad reputation

in what it was doing. and congress came back and said, you're not supposed to be calling it congress's own. so what's it supposed to be called? back to second canadian? no. that's not doing recruiting. they continued to go traditional by hasan's name. but i also noted in some of their rosters that the captains in this regiment put little cors under their rosters. they're still a part of congress's own regiment in there. so they were incredibly successful under that name of congress's own. and continued to do that through the rest of the war even after 1781 when james livingston's regiment was demobilized. anybody left over from that as well as other foreign recruits and soldiers joined hasan's

regiment, and it became known as the canadian's old regiment. that's not the name in the pension accounts. hasan's regiment, congress's own, is what you norm hi see. they picked up on that identity. this is how we get sergeant major john h. hawkins is that they are recruiting among all of these other camps and garysons up in the new york area. they are sending recruiting officers down here into pennsylvania, into these other states to the point where we've got soldiers from 11 of the states in the regiments if only ones we don't have is i haven't found anybody from south carolina or georgia in this regiment. but they've got somebody from every other state. so we've got this tremendously unique regiment that was called canadian and was called

congress's own, but in some ways is a microchasm of the continental army itself is that many of these companies segregated by states -- there were certainly at least two companies still french canadian with officers still talking french with their soldiers with all of these other recruits. so sergeant major john h. hawkins from what i can see actually enlisted in '76, had served through it, and in early january of '77, was up for reenlistment. so many of the soldiers who had enlisted in '76 were on short-term enlistmented. the army was trying to recreate an army at this point. and john h. hawkins reenlisted in congress's own. as he reenlisted because he also

had service time and he was so literate. he was a writer. he was first given a corporal's enlistment and very quickly within weeks was made a sergeant of the regiment. so john h. hawkins, who is he? i think he is from philadelphia. some of this where i won't say full assumptions. i am following clues. i spent probably way too much time trying to find this guy in the records. not always the easiest person to find. but from what i could understand, first of all, by reading his journal is that he kept talking about his typographical brethren. he talked about printing offices. he talked about newspapers. he was holding newspapers and books in his knapsacks. in fact, when you look at that journal over there, they've got it on the page where he talked about what he lost when he was running before those british

high landers to get away at brandy wine, and part of it, when you look in there, he's talking about the papers and quills and books and other things he had in his knapsack. so we got this point that he was affiliated with printing in some form. so i went a little further in trying to do research and actually found a run away add from a printer who ran away. this was back in '58. and you just do go swb this the same guy as john hawkins, it's printing, it's pennsylvania. you know, yeah, it's -- it's very likely. unfortunately, i couldn't nail it down for sure because he didn't say in his journal anywhere that he was a run away apprentice pip wonder why. but there was this, and of course you get that little hint in this looking at hawkins in his story is that he had run

away from david seller's shop. well, david seller had been the partner of david hall who has been a partner of benjamin frankly, who was the most notorious run away apprentice of all, right? so you go, oh, he's following that kind of tradition in some form or another. from what it appears, he must have come back and served out his term as an apprentice or found something else because he's back in pennsylvania and in philadelphia but obviously not finding a job or his own independent shop. and thus, there he was enlisting in the continental army during the revolution. so we followed him in, but it also makes sense about why he would be a sergeant and certainly by a sergeant major. this is something who can keep the records, and he was. he was writing some of the orderly books. so we've got proof of this individual. but the big part was that

journal. now, of course, i looked at that journal, and it's wonderful. and think about the material resources when you can touch this -- and i was -- and you're hearing this and going, 250 years ago, he was writing in this. and so, from his pen and ink to my eyes, to see what's going on in his world at that time. he is speaking to me through the writing, and i in turn am trying to speak to you through his writing as well to introduce you a bit to his world and what he saw in this revolution. so to take it from there, again, he is there in a regiment that had probably close to 1900 men serving nit over the course of the war. so again, unique and tremendously large of a unit in there. so i wanted to take it a step further from his journal in this

is not -- and we can come back to talking about this, certainly to answer your questions about the renl meant itself, where it served, and how. but what i really wanted to pick up on in here is that coups country campaign. that's not as familiar to many people looking at the revolution just as a canadian regiment is not so familiar. but one of the great things in hawkins' journal is when he talks about what he sees marching through this country, who is he talking to, who are some of the people, he is looking at the community that is becoming a nation, and he is seeing what is similar and different as he is marching through it. so this brings me back to this point that i wanted to point out here is i'm picking up on another scholar's work, benedict anderson, who was talking about imagined political communities in this. and he premised that a nation is

an imagined political community because the members of even the smallest nation will never know most of their fellow members. they will never meet them or even hear of them, yet in the minds of each lives the image of their communion. that image of the communionist can come to go over time through events like this. so we are part of that imagined community that is part of the nation. and we're doing it through him. so right now as we work through his words, we are part of the imagined community of that developing nation in the 1770s going through the 1780s. so we're sitting here in philadelphia here in 2021 in the philadelphia that he was living

in in 1776 that he marched through on the way to yorktown, if you will -- well, actually, he sailed through it in 1781 and the like. but we're part of that imagined community. we're part of an imagined community right now as we're all finally getting to see each other. but then there are those of them who are over there, over zoom. so i say hi to you, you're part of this imagined community. we're all together to look at this particular history. the other part that benedict anderson mentioned in this is when we form these communities, he talked about journeys or pilgrimages between times and statuses and places. so again, we're part of that journey. but these are meaning creating experiences that create the experience of the imagined community. and so i would like us to consider too that when we look at the continental army as it is marching through the united states, the new united states,

they are creating this community, and it's not all imagined. they are actually experiencing, they are actually seeing it, they are actually meeting these people. so here it is, this person in philadelphia meeting these people in massachusetts and new york and up into the coo, s country that is vermont and in p in. he is meeting them and making these distinctions about are they like us or unlike us, are they with us or not with us in some form. and we expand that to all the thousands and tens of thousands the who were part of that army at that time taking what is imagined and making it real in some form or another. so we come back to that reality as we look at hawkins. so i wanted to pick it up, especially in this one aspect. coos country campaign.

this was in 1779. so a year before this in '78, there was talk about another invasion into canada. general lafayette was made part of that campaign. certainly hasan was gung ho for this. yes, let's get back to canada. i want to get my lands back, the rest of it. and it went nowhere. that was the end of it in '78. they could not get the supplies or support. quite frankly, general washington was not real fond of the idea either. he had other things he needed to do in '78 instead of worrying about canada. so it was put on a back burner. then on the 6th of march, '79, washington ordered hasan's regiment to move into the koos country.

at that point, his regiment has spent the winter outside of redding, connecticut, one of the largest encampments through this war and probably about the largest inhabited area at that point in connecticut in there. sop this is a big town. and they were given the orders to start marching north into the coos country and to eventually build a road or cut a road from new hampshire through into twharp new hampshire grants, also called the intended state of vermont at that point and to move up towards the canadian border. so these were the orders. what was the reason for it? hasan's orders were you are to scout the area, build a road, and engage the pop ewe lis. so three components to that mission. he wanted hasan in particular to discover whether the inhabitants would support an expedition to

canada. so he's saying, go out there and do it, especially if they were to do it with the french support, which by that time, america had. so he was going, why don't you go up and do that. hasan is delighted to take his regiment up there to do that. what he didn't realize is this is part of washington's greater strategy which could be seen as a strategy of disinformation out to the enemy and those who are within the states as well as up to canada, a diversion against the enemy in canada, so if they think the enemy is coming one way, they might not be watching as closely in another direction, and that also ultimately, a bone to throw to people like hasan who had kept harassing him. remember, he had that temper, about making an invasion into

canada. can you all figure why washington wanted a diversion in the spring and summer of '79? what do we got? look a little over there to new york on that border. you may have heard of general sullivan in a campaign against the native americans into new york to move against that enemy. so wouldn't it make a lot of sense if you're sending sullivan up one way to have hasan create a diversion in another low cal. it's a fate. all right? move them in a different direction. to so this brings us back to hawkins then. hawkins describes what he is seeing on that trek that you see listed on there. so they're basically following the connecticut river valley, moving up into new hampshire and then across into what will be vermont. so hee describes the various towns and peoples of this trek.

they move out in three divisions, essentially what would have been three battalions within the regiment itself as they saw it. moving up first through to springfield, massachusetts. at springfield, hawkins records, at daybreak on 14 april, all three divisions move out followed bay baggage train. he records eight wagons, 21 teams. 21 teams to be pulling these wagons. those have got to be really heavy wagons, and they definitely are because what's on them? loaded with spades, shovels, axes, picks, carbines, horses swords, pistols, and other military swords. carpenter tools, or morers tools, provisions.

they are out to really cut this road, and they're taking all the tools with them. think for a minute what this would look like to the communities through which this baggage train is going with these soldiers in these three divisions who may not have seen a whole lot of soldiers up to this point. but they are moving through. this is part of hasan engaging the populis. it's not just the tools to build the road. this is the tools to show the flag in this area. this is a border land on this revolutionary frontier where much of the action is beyond there, but they are not forgotten. we're sending troops up there to deal with issues they are worried about. and of course hasan is still hoping he'll get his lands back. so we've got that part. so they've got that, and they're

trailing behind their own traveling forge. if they break their own tools, they can fix them. so again, they're marching out, we've got all these animals, all of these wagons moving out to show the force of the continental army and by extension, congressional authority that they are moving on that into these lands. this is part of creating that political community as well as sending the military up. so they started marching in hilly territory, but hawkins is looking there. oh, where are the level roads, where's the beautiful pinetree country where the trees are shading the road on a hot day. that was really important when you're marching through this and it's warm. so where are the fine houses and the farms. he looks at north hampton, what

a handsome and large village, though much scattered. checking this out, how does this work. but he goes, the court of justice is small but very elegant house, and side work is very grand. so other things, pointing out how people are living. so he's praising some area that is he goes through, then he downgrades others. slumsy, for example, was despicable. wall pool, where he found the troops much scattered, some in dwelling houses and others in barns. the poor, mean, despicable retched town could not afford one regiment room in their dwelling houses for one night. this is the first night that our men have been under the necessity of lying in barns on this march. so fascinating point. in this, he's revealing that as

they have been marching through these communities, they have been quartered in people's homes. the inhappen tants along this trek have been welcoming these soldiers into their homes. they have not had to lay out underneath the stars or at that point -- up to that point, in barns. now, i will point out that it could be all welcoming. at another point or two as we look at what he's doing, he was also perfectly willing to threaten councilmen along the way that if you are not willing to give us the supplies we need, for instance, flour, then we'll take it. if you don't let us stable our horses in your barns, we will put them in anyway, and we will stay there until you supply. so again twhab temper, either be very willing to to it or we'll

use a little bit of authority to get what we want. so that was part of it. but it was interesting that the despicable one is the one that makes the men sleep in the barn. these other ones, these warm communities are welcoming the soldiers into their homes. so he was very happy to leave misrabble wall pool on the 24th of april. arrive in charleston. handsome but small, but lovely. it resembled princeton, new jersey. so again, there's this other side to it where he's taking what he knows and comparing it to what he's just meeting. they're like us, they're like princeton up there. we've got these connections. they're part of our community in doing this. then he also pointed out the other side of the connecticut river is what is called the state of vermont but which is in dispute at that time.

okay. so he's observing and recording. he's examining what is different, what is similar, what is common among these various regions and peoples. there were certainly some unpop -- or some unfavorable comparisons, but quite frankly, he was often very positive about what he was seeing. i will say, he was also always looking for future opportunities in this. the thing we see with hawkins is he couldn't make it as a prirnt down here in philadelphia. i think there was a surplus of printers down here in philadelphia at the time, but he was certainly looking out there. and you see things like, albany, do you have a printing press there i see that nobody's using. well, he was drafting a letter to say, would you be interested in letting me have it, setting something up. he looked at what was up at dartmouth college, oh, they've got a printing press.

wonderful. this liberty of liberties is the printing press. that is true civilization is to have a press. so he's out there looking for other opportunities. and you go, this is what other soldiers were doing as well as they're marching through is are they going to go back home or look for opportunities elsewhere. so in the process of all this, hawkins was checking this out as hasan's regiment was out there collecting intelligence, denying intelligence to the enemy as they were saying it because they were also sending elements up into canada at that point, checking in with native americans, trying to have native american allies or at least keeping them neutral and making sure the newer settlers were protected from and also make sure they were not engaging with the enemy at that point. so again, the regiment was showing the flag as it was moving into the border land to

cut the invasion route. so as it did, and by the end of august, hasan had indeed cut that route up to what is now called hasan's notch. and it's right there below the canadian border. he was within sight of the canadian border when he got orders from washington to return. washington had gotten what he wanted out of this expedition. sullivan's expedition was successful. it was time for hasan to bring his regiment back so it would be ready for engagements through the rest of '79 and moving into 1780 at that point. and with this, they do continu on. if we go bacto what was said after the coos country campaign, they wen back to morristown. the regiment suffered through theardships of morstown.

the regiment did march to yorktown in 1781. hasan -- hawkins was veryood about recording that one as well, the long trip down into yorktown. what he was seeing there. at yorktown, the regiment did distinguish itself, in particular, its light infantry on readout number ten, which beat the french who were trying to take readout number nine at the exact same time through it. after yorktown, the regiment was sent up to lancaster, pennsylvania, not too far from here if you will, and they were on guard duty with the prisoners of war there, where i would like to point out that hasan again was pressing for an invasion of canada. through into 1782, you know,

let's do it. of course, everybody's waiting for the diplomats to get everything done, to get the peace treaty, let's end this, and there he is going, come on, we have one last chance. let's go for canada again. and i love it, washington writes him back going, interesting. send me your plans. and i think this is great as senior officer, he's going, write it out for me about how this would actually work. the trouble is that only kept hasan occupied for a few weeks and he had sent the plan back. they were brought back to new york, spent most of the rest of the war waiting for the furlough. most of the troop was furloughed in july -- by june or july of 1773. one small contingent of it continued up to west point,

between west point and newburg where they staid until the army was totally disbanded. so here was a regiment that served from 1776 when it was authorized in january to november of 1783. and in it, sergeant major john h. hawkins was with it from 1777 through to 1783, and i am very thankful that he left us a journal to see part of this regiment's travels. thank you very much. [ applause ] >> shall we? see tyler behind you. so just raise your hand. maybe i'll kick things off. i really appreciated your

casting the role of the continental army as a sort of nationalizing force. it's something that for some of you who are familiar with our core expedition here at the museum. you recall that scene of the snowball fight with george washington breaking up this fight between new england and virginia soldiers. and we did that of course because we wanted to remind or for the first time tell vis tors that the nation did not spring out of the heads of the men who were gathered down on the street here but that it was a really hard, long process, perhaps an ongoing process that is still going on a little bit later in the core expedition, to see that display of soldiers buttons from the period of 1777 and the valley forge encampment when usa of course was first printed on in boston -- one of the things

we wanted to convey most americans have seen -- we chant usa. the first time that appears is on the bodies of these continental army soldiers. so i think this regiment again being a regiment without a country is just an incredible embodiment of that process. >> they very much were. when you start looking at the rosters, at the end of this war, lieutenant benjamin morris started to do a roster. they were pulling all the names to go. actually, hau kings was part of that. he done part of the roster and moved them together. which that master roster had about -- i counted 1,482 soldiers on that roster. and then i also did more research and pulled out another 300 or so that weren't on it. many of them were the french

canadians who had left or stayed in canada instead of coming down to the retreat. on that roster, they didn't all have places they came from. later on, they had to have a state affiliation by which to get it. but about 300 of those names just had u.s. after them. in other words, they have no state affiliation. they only had the united states affiliation. then after that, we saw the pennsylvaniaens and the new yorkers and new jersey and the like that you saw. but that u.s. was essential for the french canadians. it was also essential for some of the foreigners who did. so we did have some of the prisoners of war at lancaster join the regiment. others had also joined. so it was very much a multiethnic, multilingual regiment there with the

continental army. >> what happened to sergeant major hawkins after 1783? >> oh, that's the hard part. sergeant major hawkins almost disappears. both records i found were about bounty lands in particular as he was selling them off or distributing them elsewhere. basically, by '93, i can't find them. i went into the records for the yellow fever hospitals to see whether he died in one of the hospitals. i couldn't find his name. i was a little relieved by that point. i did find at least two john hawkins in the philadelphia directories. one was a cobbler, and another was a grocer. and i think it's possible if he is who i think he was, he may have more experience with leather making in the family.

with his experience, it would have been easy to set that up and go into trade. he definitely did not become a farmer as far as i know. he didn't disappear. i think he was too urban far and didn't have that kind of experience. but i spent a lot of time trying to do it. i was determined, i am going to find this guy. i've got to. he left this marvelous journal, i've spent all this time reading about him. i want to meet him. you know, this kind of thing. more than hasan. hawkins i really wanted to meet. and i couldn't. and finally, one of my colleagues after i was spending way too long said, you know, that's part of the story sheer that so many people that we have named on these rosters, this is all we've got of them. we know they lived. we have their name, and we have nothing else. so we know more about him, but he also represents so many of these soldiers who came in, enlisted, fought, and

disappeared. >> do we know where those journals were between him disappearing into the ether and him ending up at hsp? >> i have not seen it, but if we want to talk to -- >> there's a guy over there that may be able to help us with this. >> i will say what is evident in this, at some point, they were bound together. so they were actually when he was writing them, they were in smaller like paper bound kind -- or stitched together pages, and that at some point, somebody decided to put them within a leather binding. and when they did, there are one or two pieces that were bound out of order. so i was going, it stops here, but then that's not going to this page. and then i find it later on in the journal. so there was a little bit of a difference. if you take a good look at the journal, you will notice the

pages are different sizes. and there are different chunks there showing where this first came from and that the binding is later for this. >> thank you, dr. mayer. i'm going to throw the first question to one of our guests watching from home, riley suggester land who is a fan of your past research. riley asked did the research reveal anything about the canadian women attached to the regiment, and if so, did their experiences differ from other camp followers and women that we know of in the american british forces? >> absolutely. i managed to get a little bit in there about the women with the regiment there. i couldn't leave camp followers out. there's no way. what we do know is that women and children did also retreat with the french canadians at the retreat from canada. moe ses hasan's wife, charlotte,

was als a refugee. edward antil's wife was a refugee. she also kept bearing children in camp and losing about half of them in camp through the process of this war. there were certainly other soldiers that had their wives and children with them in camp. and what is interesting is that within a few years, at least with the french canadians, seeing that some of the soldiers who had come down are starting to marry the daughters of the other soldiers who had come down. so they were maintaining their community ties in the camps. so it is that it was much older soldiers with teen age daughters, but then if you look at the regulations, at some points there, they were saying women over the age of 14 would not be allowed to be in camp separately. at that point, you get married, you get rations, and you're allowed to stay in camp.

i did not find as many women following with the anglo soldiers and certainly not with the desserters from the british side coming with them. so one of the things is are they coming out of areas in which there is action or has been taken by the enemy, so they are following because they're also refugees, not simply because of the funding. but, yes, they are there. they are in the book. got them. >> i'm curious can you talk a little bit about fast forwarding to the 19th century when those who had survived to the pension acts in 1818-1832, what were you able to find out through those sources which i think should be known by all americans. this is the first archive, 80,000 pension records in the

national archive, and it's still such a bountiful field to plow. so what did you learn about the cor? >> first you find out that the best records usually come after the 1820 pension regimen when they are saying, we've got to show need and what do you own, don't own, and they are making this. by the time you get into the 1830s, they're just going, you survived, we can pension you off at this point. in the 1830s is also when the widows could ask for the pensions based on their husband's service, and they would have to give proof of were you actually married. the first of the accounts said were you married during the war. then later on, were you married within so many years of the war. finally, it was -- it didn't matter when you married the vaet ran. it was just that you had been married to one of the soldiers. but where i got most of the

records for this was among the french canadians because actually congress or the war department was tending to push against some of them, especially going, well, that means that she got married when she was 13. that can't be. there's got to be something wrong. no. actually they did marry at 13 in some of these cases. and they would try to get more information from these women. most were illiterate and can't write her name and doesn't know the stuff, but she can give the story or telltales about, well, we stood up in the barracks before anybody in the country and declared we were married to the company supervisor to supervise us, so it was a lawful marriage. for them, they were waiting for a priest to arrive and could do a sacramental marriage. there was a priest who went up to the encampments up there and

married some of them and baptized some of the thirn. what they were doing was telling us these little intimate deale -- details of their lives. when they got married. if they had children. but the other part that was tremendous is they had maintained the community. for many of those french canadians, new york state gave them bounty lands past platsburg. so they are right there on the canadian border. some are within 15 miles of where they had lived during the war. so they're right close to home again at that point, and they had created a community up there. and then in the pension accounts, you've got sister being witness to sister. to being witnessed to a brother's children to then their children are representing their parents in these accounts. but they really were all very

much a strong community this way. so it was -- yeah, a great story there. >> it's certainly been a theme of much of your work of thinking of these institutions, rather the regiments, the armies as communities. and really comes through. >> i think they stay together better if they can become a community because they have that sense of affiliation with them. and as i said, it is also picking up on this idea of creating a community that is a nation. so you've got the smaller communities and then that bigger one that keeps growing from that. >> uh-huh. >> i'll ask another question from our friends on the internet. walt is wondering if john hawkins says anybody about the famous kabals and inside dealing that those of us who have studied the revolutionary war

should know of. >> not that much. i wish he would have. there are many gaps in his record. part of it is he lost his journal when he was running away from that high lander at brandy wine. there was another account marching from willmington to albany. so there are gaps in the record at that point. what i do see at the end, and this was before the newburg conspiracy as he was talking about hasan and his military family all together in eric skylar's house up there, and they're sitting around, and he's trying to write in his journal, and he's trying to write letters, and people are singing and dancing all around him, and then the house keeper at that point kept trying to push his stuff aside. he's saying, i'm in fear of my

life right now as she's brandishing knives at me to set the table for dinner. he was talking more about things that intimately concerned him as opposed to those greater events. i would have loved to have seen the account about the mutiny at new jersey, his regiment was part of putting that down, but that's one of the gaps in the journal. >> i was about to call on john reese. >> holly, could you tell us what you know about any african americans with the regiment? >> i did look this up. i was checking it out. there were a few african americans in hasan's regiment. but what made it difficult is that in the rosters, they were not putting down race next to the soldiers' names. they put down where they came from, because that's where they

were to be supplied and paid, but there was no indication of race. so what i started to do as i was researching some, part of what we can do sometimes is by naming. there's a name that seems like it was often associated with african americans, and if i ran across that name, i would try to research it. i did find a few that way by tracing them back through census accounts. kates who could have been cato mumford could have been. so i found about three or four is really all i could say for sure that i had evidence to say this was a person of color. one was john seratoga. now, he's an interesting character in this. no indication whatsoever about race.

where i found out was later on at the end of the war is that edward chen, who was the pay master of the regiment, put in the paperwork saying all moneys due to john saratoga were to go to him because he is my slave for life. so here we note that cates mumford who was a free person of color and john saratoga. major john taylor from virginia brought an enslaved with him and registered him so he was getting rations and pay through his enslaved servant. so we do know that they were there. there were other accounts for putnin's regiment at one point

about 27 men, and hasan was part of putnin's. some of them were probably in hasan's. so i was really trying to track them down. but i found it very interesting they did not make that designator. and what does that mean that they are not making that designator on these troops? >> before we give everyone the opportunity to get their books signed, to appreciate the amazing art fact we have or to imagine what that knapsack contained with our recreation. it is our long tradition for scott stevenson to have the final question. >> i do like to have the final word, as you know. i'm curious, have portions, presumably not all of the diary has been published. i'm just curious if -- what would you like to say about that? >> i did it in the midst of

doing this. this is one of the things where your research goes wrong or right. i'm not sure where it is. when i first came across the sergeant major's journal, and he is my sergeant major, is i started to think, oh, this would be a great thing to transcribe, annotate, and public as a primary source for use. so i have transcribed the entire journal. i've got the transcription in my records, but every time i was going to annotate somebody, i've got to learn more. and then it's, i think i've got some other story in this. there's a part of me thinking maybe i should go back and publish this primary source for use in schools and elsewhere. whether or not that's as important anymore as we do more and more digital history is the question. if i don't go in that direction,

i am going to give the transcription to hsp. it doesn't make sense to sit on my computer at that point. >> well, the second half of my final question is just more broadly as we approach the 250th anniversary of the declaration of independence, going to be somewhat of a celebration i hope here in philadelphia, i'm just curious, what are you thinking about, what are your aspirations, what are you worried about? open-ended question, but how are you reflecting on the commemoration anniversary that's coming up? >> well, i certainly hope i'm still going to be here to celebrate that. as of right now, i'm actually an editor for a volume on women waging war. it is a collection of essays about the women's side of this

war. and it's under contract with uva press, so that should be coming out next spring. so that's the project in the near term, and then it may be a revisiting sergeant major hawkins. >> fantastic. well, thank you very much, holly, for joining us here tonight. if you're enjoying american history tv, sign up for our news letter to receive the weekly schedule of upcoming programs like lectures in history, the presidency, and more. sign up for the news letter today and be sure to watch american history tv every saturday or online at c-span.org/history. weekends on c-span 2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday, american history story. book tv brings you the latest of nonfiction books and