washington is really fixated on the fact we have a strategic asset that is in unlike any other. i joke in my book it's a version of what will rogers used to say is america got the two best presidents the atlantic and pacific ocean. we are insulated from the chaos of continental europe for them and killing each other for centuries. that is a strategic asset paper tickly at the time when distance really inoculates us. and so he says look, there's no way were going be a satellite of another nation we need to be an independent nation. he also says we need at least 20 years he says in the farewell address to build their own strength economic and then we can start making our own decisions rooted in our sense of interest and justice. we are not an isolationist estate we do not have criminal alliances with other nations were not going to be a satellite of anyone else are not going to get dragged into

a foreign war. that would be a huge mistake for who we are now as a young nation that needs to build up strength. and it would squander our greatest strategic advantage which is her geographic isolation. this plays out to the 19th century and is considered sacred. it is easily enforced by the distance, by the fact the world is not -- you cannot attack america very easily albeit it has happened, so we were thoroughly isolated. who is abraham's private secretary and secretary of state said america's foreign-policy can be summed up in two words the golden rule in the monroe doctrine. that basically says work on instead of your business, do not come in our sphere of influence. but, there are temptations to empire. he saying we are republic not an empire.

that is a four foundation father wisdom. late 19th century that starts to get strange. by the time we get into the debate over world war one and i write about this in my book, it is really fascinating. the debate in getting involved in world war i is conducted in the league of nations a book by two biographers woodrow wilson and henry cabot lodge. both are arguing they are defending the washington tradition. he served with a little more authenticity saying we've never gotten involved in a continental fight, why would we start now? wilson is saying note the ideals of washington are at stake. and a lot once we do get involved in the first world war involves calling on washington's legacy. and then something really interesting happens.

it happens fairly quickly all the sudden maybe it looks like washington was not this perfect profit. we can get involved in foreign wars, pretty short or do good make the world safer democracy. so it takes washington down a peg. in a significant way. there is a backlash to involvement in the first world war. when the second world war comes about, you see a group called the america first committee. some were isolationists, but they use washington's farewell as a real avatar to be against the united states getting involved in the second world war. this hits an absurd assistance when they host a rally at madison square garden in new york city that functions as an american nazi party rally. there is a giant, giant poster, flag, billboard of

george washington in the background. the keynote address to a settlement misappropriating the text of the farewell address. this is paid for by a foreign government. it shows we need to be careful about misappropriations and washington warning about foreign influence in our policy that's one of the reasons to stay out of it. now you have a foreign government misappropriation of farewell address to argue against getting involved in a foreign war. so that by the way it backfires badly on them. but the legacy of the farewell address, really starts to fall away for a time as a result of that association. and the incorrect belief that it is an isolationist doctrine. it's not a song about a foreign policy of independence of not squandering our strength through false alliances we should not try to export democracy or get involved in foreign fights we

should focus on strengthening ourselves. once we are strong and independent then we can make decisions based on her own national interests and it's different than isolationist. >> joe, and dialogue have a long section on washington vision at large looking not just at the farewell address but his actions across all of time as commander-in-chief both times. what is your read on the foreign policy vision washington that you would share? >> there is a portion of his legacy that is no longer relevant. i hear john and it's not really isolationism, but i don't ever envisioned us. he did envision us as a world power. but i think his vision of us

is a world power is close to it john quincy adams would say. we do not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. but, i flossed my train of thought when you asked me again? foreign-policy isolationism. >> it seems to me another dimension to washington's legacy that is very much alive. there are different people who claim loyalty to it do not always agree on what it means we should do. that is the realistic tradition in american foreign policy. it has its origins in the dialogue in washington terms nations act solely on the basis of interest. you should not expect them to act on any other grounds whatsoever. in all since all trees are temporary because the interest might particular change.

if you carried into contemporary american world, we care a lot about human rights but we are not going to war on that. and i think the person that most embodies it in the mid and late 20th century is george kennan and his and doctrine of containment. what realism does well, you have to distinguish between what you can and should do and what you cannot and should not do. it cannot be an open ended foreign-policy. which regions our national security interest and which are not. at least in my humble opinion if you could somehow bring him out what do we do about iraq. it's involved.

their graveyard for all western values is afghanistan not look for scapegoats but let's try to figure out how to make this mistake in the first place. and i think, in some sense our own understanding of why britain makes the biggest mistake in its history but making war on the united states in 1775 -- 76. we could understand that now in a way we could not before. how does the recently arrived world power brimming with confidence certain of its

military and economic supremacy step into a quagmire that is unwinnable and unnecessary? we should know about that. >> there is a lot i agree with but let me just push back for debate sake. >> i saw a grimace on your face i knew you're going to push back. >> on two points. first of all what you're saying is exactly right it can be summed up in a number of different ways one is america's not a colonizing power. that does not mean we don't have interest as an independent nation but we are not a colonizing power. if you look at our involvement in world war i and world war ii that's another definition of american exceptionalism. we beat back people who were not simply disrupting the balance of power, but attacking free and allied nations. [inaudible] pre- >> not world war i, world war ii but not world war i3. >> world war i was a mistake.

>> you and the commission can debate that but i'm not going to do that just yet. the only ground is cemetery to bury our dead. yes in germany we have an air force base i won't go into that level of detail right now. what intrigues me is the case which does not occur under washington but if we are attacked, what do you do? how far do you extend that? how much does morocco apply? these are inference to parallels given what we've got with the apertures of the time and of course where it begins as were attacked on 9/11 it's an unprecedented situation washington could not have imagined. i don't know if he could have imagined americans attacking their own capitol that to separate important conversation. >> i think he very easily could have imagined pre- >> whiskey rebellion in the past.

>> but just to finish foreign-policy, if you are attacked, then we responded. the problem is we responded with an open ended commitment rather than a more realist -- we have a limited objective and then we are going to achieve that and get out. that is where the balance is dealing with the different geopolitical realities of the day versus 1796. : : : >> and the energy and all of the angst and the english was created by the event on september 11th, was diverted into an unnecessary war.

>> iraq or afghanistan and they give dramatization between the two rated. >> erect was not containing their weapons in iraq had nothing to do with al qaeda pretty. >> i agree with you on that pretty and i'm going to take you back to 1796. when a great conversation and i hope we have a time for a few audience questions i will keep you long but julie, and the scenes has a couple of audience questions that we want to come to. where was it written, when was it written and names that camacho and agility versus people as a writer but the when is interesting. >> aware his executive branch that was existing in philadelphia, pennsylvania.

and, washington begins writing the farewell address at the end of his first term and he does not want have a second term and at that time, james medicine was there and jefferson's way and all that. basically he is persuaded that the one thing the jefferson have to agree on is that washington is along the president of the civil war that we literally pointed away and shelf in a drawer and hamilton's secretary and in new york city but washington is making fun of him because jefferson hamilton informed the democratic of the republican party is this and he brings adams in our hamilton and and start to correspond with him. that is a primary collaboration and bring john j in at the very end, see sort of they performed

an on-site edit with hamilton new york but the process of back-and-forth and the point is that they're doing a very good job of describing it and for my book, which began before the play came out. i was delighted today of a song about it and they use actually some of the lines but they were that he designed it so that that hamilton would be delivering it has an washington would turn it into poetry. but the music and the spirit of the song is washington for the public delivery. >> importantly because among the whole string of partisan in his under pennsylvania, son of partisan paper, is a federalist paper canonically imparts because it has a congressional conduct but he chose a nonpartisan paper to publish it

pretty. >> i always wondered why hamilton because washington had so many people that he trusted and can work with any of hamilton somehow was the very top of that list and can you tell us about that anything that you would like to add to the story. >> washington sort of had this relationship with the department of secretary in office and i refer to this as washington certainly. [inaudible]. they didn't want to have certainly the trust in their writing abilities to the same degree and is frequently and thought out hand and addresses on these are moments during the presidency mask hamilton to draft this for him. one really important element is that washington insisted upon is that from the hamilton we first talked about it and march of

1776 and then washington essentially drafted and the first draft for medicine rated and he insisted that the final include several paragraphs and it was basically a shot across e aisle because washington said the madison and jefferson would be critical of this address and somehow the address to garner more power to the executives and so by including this paragraph, he was basically saying, what will you do about a farewell address new participated in the drafting of the farewell address. this very intentional savvy and sure enough medicine was not publicly critical of it. >> briefly think that he picked hamilton is because hamilton had the most expensive and taking throughout the seven years of the war he was writing doses and

when you read the general rivers blackened 1770s, and signed by washington but he did not write it most was written by hamilton or one of his upgrades. he called at penn man braided is insecure about his own lack of education printed items went to harvard and washington with the war. that was his educational experience and then he was conscious of his own net lack of literacy and surrounded himself with people who were well educated and that was hamilton in the arms and that was the people. >> let's go to another audience question we had one from jim about some specific tear pretty how much of the policy driven by the fact that the spanish

maintain control of louisiana territory the british on canada so we have talked about the ocean, keeping america away from foreign powers and yet, they were there. it was to take it first specifics about the geopolitics. >> cultic first up. publishing is hard but what is it called the continental army. truly only the coast thinking continental he from the beginning. it begins at the mississippi. washington understood it as well.

the declining european power they were like inverted this sense until you take over predict his stage is the perfect european nation and a power because we know as soon as the demographic blankets and come they are on. and i don't think anybody could easily foresee the louisiana purchase. but this sense of manifestation before 1840, but it becomes a term and canada well, remember the time we are talking 7096, we thought we would get canada and then the war of 1812 were supposed to win canada and of course it did not work out that way but the continental vision

and people sand like ehrenberg crazing on the record of it i think the consumption was that florida and most of the west would eventually coming our way rated. >> what i think demography doing it rather than rule printed. >> so i think that has he said earlier, washington was of the lesson he understood in 1795, the treaty was saying that the americans accessing the mississippi river was a hundred which is a critical element and he has the ability to send the goods of the mountain ranges in philadelphia and desperately needed access to the water before they were trains and cars that kind of thing however, washington was realistic about the fact that things and friends

were kind of running off of each other and regularly there were complaints of these individuals towards florida motherboard goals, that had not happened yet predict so much of this policy was about getting to 100 because the get too close to britain and france will get annoyed in the southern border and maybe it will be more friendly self emancipated are individuals we get too close risk, the jealous and than that, the reverse of his religious this element of trying to hold all of these pieces together before the united states had these in recognizing that as great as we thought we were in 1796, this point we work still a relatively national power and very much

subject to international superpowers in washington really understood that. >> remember most thought the detailed and you just regard up continent at the time and the whole delay of washington's second term is related to treating the fact that jefferson matters in basically because washington from washington, they say it means that are really setting with the english. so they played that game to great effect and then the french revolutionary and part of his deal was other sweaty aspect to sign bill in louisiana the destabilization. there were a lot of foster that

in the time. and ultimately, even jefferson realized that there was a big deal and they got wind of the fact that that he was about to get his head cut off and he retired to jamaica, long island pretty. >> and married the governor's daughter pretty. >> correct. list talk about another topic and we do have an audience question coming in to help us explore that and asking about george washington's last testament in a different kind, or something to this table addressed with particular respect you and this is what i was suggesting may not export but enough. >> i explicitly say in my book is that his platform was considered a farewell address

by all means if he hasn't, he should look at, to washington's discarded, certainly by contemporary perspective, the farewell address assignment on the issues now washington, is in his last long testament which could be considered the ultimate farewell address takes the decided if an unusual founding father steps and of his life upon martha's death predict so there is a million different reasons why this is insufficient emotionally unsatisfying by contemporary perspectives all of which are so obviously don't even need to be discussed and it is core contradiction to the promise of america that said, the washington knows he's going to be public and there is a lot

of things that he doesn't do say the dynamic that a lot of people are looking. this was intended to be in written to be a publican a lot of drama around the drafting and they don't do this, they don't report their slaves upon the death but washington was making it very clear statement to the country so 100 percent i believe in arguing my book that i can and should be considered the dakota where slavery is finally addressed by washington. >> i wish we had a part of this and told his leaders and americans, that he intended to free his slaves. easily dead and at that moment

try to follow his is not easy, he is committed to freeing his slaves once he can get money off the sale of us western lands but he cannot get that sold and so he keeps forging in until 99, he does not finally commit any can only free his slaves beyond which are slightly less we can prove that but i think that martha's reluctant to see the slaves rebar because neural intermarried in the plantation. i would think that washington is the greatest leader in american history i think the slavery is marcus original sin and racism is its enduring toxic residue. i'm still living with it and was

there a chance to ended in a land the road to extension. before the numbers became impossible pretty quiet tragedy but a great one pretty. >> aspirated most effectively moved it from that direction, washington. he fell as a leader on this issue and that is a heckuva scanner to apply and agree in the sense that they know, the perspectives gives us an enormous advantage of the hill washington in the slavery was a contradiction to the values of the market revolution. he said that in a new bed and what he kept saying was that we have to wait, he's wait until 18

away because that's one of the slave trade will and and so in some sense, i would like to to have said i would like to the constitution to exit public were not going to put in the deeps date self now but the core principles in this publican allow this to exist forever the house cannot stand divided, and a method minister he is to use that phrase in 1778 in this were lincoln got it. >> so gordon reed has said that he thought the george washington was concerned that if he filled out about slavery during his lifetime, he was terrible harm and divisiveness that is true, i

don't know but that is certainly what he thought. that is what he didn't say anything during his lifetime the bill was certainly more than some people dead and it was less than others did and so i think that in some ways it is a little bit not taking the easy road out because it wasn't but it also was not really taking the stand because of the labor and time while he was still alive so i think that the way i see it is it was more than nothing but it certainly wasn't much pretty. >> let's remember that we begin with the union and in the commitment to the union and if you the question of slavery and away, you risk that in this thing he was most terrified of and would gotta keep it off the national agenda until at some point in time we can really basis squarely and until the

republic is sufficiently stable to survive the debate. >> i'll ask each of you a question. we wanted you to close on this point, take away for you and also john, why would you want the people to continue to read the farewell address now 225 years later was a take away for you. >> washington warned us about the forces that is stored the democratic republic and document contained all the wisdom of his life and it is a prophetic document and in particular, is warnings against hyper partisanship, or success of death for death or domestic politics are chris from the headlines of today. and i had to pick one of those that i would argue that washington is most concerned about and we should be most concerned about, hyper barn and

bipartisanship putting party over the country is in the forces of today and is risking the success of our republic. >> why should people continue to turn in this document now pretty. >> i would agree with what he said i would add one element to this foreign policy issue is that washington lord against allowing motions for the nations to color our ideas is our fellow americans and encounter our ability to see him as a united nation and i think that it talks about an interesting point that p partisan identity your foreign-policy identity, to make us forget what we have in common to make us forget our common side and instead the differences so it's really just looking for the divisions and instead look for the things that we have the brightest together.

to have both of my colleagues here have done a good job, so i can echo their views and as a teacher, for 44 years, through students these days don't think anything happened before they were born. and because of the document would be so alien to them i want them to understand it like the a foreign country and learning to think and speak a different language in the language that washington speaks is further reasons john legend, desperately needed are absent from the center of american politics especially the congressional and presidential level. in the public interest is something that nobody understands now. to even suggest that your highest priority is made they

are not qualified to serve. washington would never neither would any of the other four presidents i mentioned earlier, they would never run for public office in the current climate. they went regarded as prostitution. >> comparing to where we weren't where we are looking back and learning something is the future. >> thank you so much, this is been a great conversation and i have learned a lot is an important document and thank you for having so many people out there better understand it and on behalf of mount vernon, thank you so much for joining us here tonight we have seen you

you're watching american history tv. >> let me tell you about our speaker tonight. wynn fellowed gallagher's books include how the post office created america, just the way you are: a new york times notable book, working on god, the power of place and new, understanding our need for novelty and change. she has written for numerous publications such as the atlantic monthly, rolling stone and the new york times. if her newest book, new women in the old west: from settlers to suffragists, an untold american story, is available for purchase from politics and prose. if you use the link in the chat box which is also available on

our web site, you'll be able to purchase the book with a 10 is discount -- 10% discount. just be sure to use the code special 10 when checking out. now, please join me in welcoming to the smithsonian winifred gallagher. >> hi, wynn fellowed. >> hi, kathy. >> thanks so much, it's wonderful to be with you. before i begin, aye like to see a few -- i'd like to say a few words about the woman you see on your screen from north dakota. she was a norwegian immigrant who spoke no english at all when she arrived in the u.s., but she filed her homestead claim, lived on it for five years, then sold it for a nice profit which she used to start out in a new career as a photographer with her own studio.

like the other women we'll talk about tonight, she made the most of the unusual opportunities that the american west afforded to new women. i'd like to explain also that we'll pick up with slides later in my talk partly because the women, because women in general -- particularly the ones that i'm going to talk about -- were not much photographed until the women's rights movement really picked up later in the 19th century. if i began thinking about new women in the old west during my 12 years of living half time in rural wyoming. i was impressed by the strong, versatile women starting with the 80-year-old mayor who pretty much ran local affairs from government to business, and that's not even counting the actual cowgirls. was there something in the water? i did some research and found

that my friends were carrying on a long tradition of independent, competent and civic-mindedness. it began in the old west era of the 1840s into the early 19th -- into the early 20 century when more than half of america was settled. but historians failed to notice, however, that women busy building homes and communities from scratch not only joined, but at a crucial moment led the massive human rights revolution that enfranchised half the nation. indeed, by the time the 19th amendment was finally ratified in 1920, most western women had already votedded for years, sometimes for decades before their sisters in a single state back east. the colonization of the west and the suffrage movement were

overlapping epochs, and three generations of women were critical to both. yet their double-barreled achievements have simply been neglected. according to or the foundational myth, strong silent men won the west. in fact, women were equal ily are essential -- equally essential to the process. moreover, they were not just stereotypical martyrish -- or quakers with hearts of gold who supported men in various ways, but single homesteaders and doctors, entrepreneurs and suffragists. in their experimental, improvised settler society, these hard working, determined women found unique opportunities; social, political, economic to become more equal to men by acting more as equals. all of these white, black and

asian women were new to the west, but some of them -- and some of the native american/hispanic women they displaced -- also came to per sonify what was called the new woman. these new women rejected the 19th century self-sacrificing domesticity and anticipated the early 20th century, more liberate model of womanhood based on the kind of independent, fulfilling way of life traditionally limited to men. officiating women's experience in the west requires understanding something about their position in larger american society which was terrible. by age-old law and custom the, they were citizens in name only. they had no official place in civic life and very few legal rights. according to america's version

of english common law, a married woman -- a wife -- became a -- [inaudible] who was covered by or officially absorbed into her husband's person. in exchange for his support and protection, she was legally obliged to serve and obey him. she could not own, inherit, control property including her own -- she could not sue in court, run a business, divorce or even claim custody of her own children. the connection between women's lack of economic status and lack of rights was highlighted in america just after the revolutionary war. while the men fought, many women -- including abigail adams, the future first lady -- capably ran their families' farms and enterprises. in recognition of their service and patriotism, new york, new

jersey, massachusetts and new hampshire allowed them to vote. then the men returned from the war. by the time of the constitution's ratification in 1788, most women had been disenfranchised. new jersey held on until 1807. by the mid 19th century as the industrial revolution rapidly gathered steam and rapidly urbanized america, women's status declined still further, at least those of the middle and upper classes in towns and cities. in the old agrarian economy, home and work were intermeshed on farms where the labor of both sexes sustained the family. especially in the booming urban areas, men's jobs in the new factories and offices now supported their wives and

children. eager to codify this huge shift, victorian society confined the sexes to what were routinely called desperate spheres -- separate spheres. men got the public world of the home -- excuse me, men got the public world of industry and commerce, law and politics, women got the private world of the home. they continued to do housework and childcare, but they lost the status of economic co-providers for their families. their only acceptable career was marriage. indeed, they could compromise their respectable reputations simply by seeking a man's education, in quotes, much less a profession. just as westward migration began, however, social reformers started to renovate this

cloisteredded victorian home, turning it into women's new power center. they built upon a theory involving since the 18th -- evolving since the 18th century that women were not so much inferior from went as different from them. they were weaker, of course, but also elevated, nurturing. in a treatise on domestic economy which quickly became a secular bible on how respectable people should live, katherine beecher -- a champion of female education and a mother of home economics -- puppet the home and the home -- put the home and the homemaker at the very center of america's rapidly changing society and its westward expansion. women were -- [inaudible] she insisted, but the rightful arbiters of mores, manners, child rearing, religion,

charity, important matters previously adjudicated by men. indeed, beecher went so far as to proclaim that what was later termed women's moral authority, perhaps even superiority, created a balance of power. she said it has been america alone that women -- it is in america alone that women are raised to an equality with the other sex. that was a pretty radical thing to say back in 1841. this glorification of their domestic role endowed women with a potent religious and social gravitas that elevated their social standing. it also provideed a platform for launching their campaign for further empowerment. there's a certain irony there that women turned on this --

which was keeping them down at a certain level. they turned it into an advantage and used it to go from home to world. enslaved women who had to work could not emulate this new genteel model. others, whether agrarian wives, bohemians or the first female teachers and nurses -- [inaudible] if at all, but the aspirational ideals of the domestic american madonna, the sentimental religious victorian society and my greated to the west. migrated to the west. most 19th century americans, including beecher, considered politics too base a pursuit for women but not all. in july 1848 as migration

increased, katie stanton -- elizabeth katie stanton, who we see here in all of her mag magnificence -- [laughter] and lucretia mott, both abolitionists, famously held a meeting in seneca falls, new york, to discuss what were first called woman rights. the event was later promoted as the birth place of suffrage, the right to vote in national mobile elections, sit on jury, run for office. but seneca falls really only helped to formalize and publicize a cause amid e the ferocious battle to abolish slavery. by the 1830s black abolitionists soon personified by sojourner truth upheld universal suffrage or the right to vote regardless of race, sex or creed. they inspired white women

abolitionists to rebel against their own second class status which was based on gender instead of race. stanton and mott were well aware that in their own upstate community the native women of the iroquois confederation had long owned property, divorced and elected leaders. after two days, stantoning wrote a declaration of rights and sentiments that elegantly rephrased thomas jefferson. all men and women are created equal. two little words. despite the lofty language, the activists' first role were distinctly practical and domestic. they prioritized the rights to control property, divorce and maintain child custody, laws that would help protect their families from improvident or

abusive husbands. even these zealots considered suffrage so farfetched that they included it in their declaration only after black abolitionist frederick douglass' last minute argument. in mainstream society, however, the woman rights proclaimed at seneca falls including equal education and employment were considered so ludicrous that newspapers -- the idea simply by printing a list of women's rights. in that same year of 1848, change roiled the west. that vast territory stretching past the mississippi river. gold was discovered in california, the u.s. annexed the vast oregon territory and also claimed what is now our enormous

southwest as spoils from the mexican-american war. the rush to the new frontier began in earnest. the west differed from the rest of america in significant ways that affected women's positions starting with demography. until the turn of the century, white men significantly outnumbered white women there, particularly in towns and cities. and women's scarcity increased their value. overall supply and demand. so far less popular -- [inaudible] the west was also home to the great majority of the country's native american, hispanics and asians which conditioned the white anglo-saxon, protestant women who dominated at least early migration to be cast as maternal civilizers among savages in an alleged

wilderness. indeed, the west quickly became a hoe case for the vir -- showcase for the virtuous homemaker in her snug cabin. she was not only the moral heroine of beecher's society, but also of america's transcontinental expansion. women's status also benefited from conditions in the west's settler society which by definition was simpler and more interested in progress than in tradition. it was all hands on deck. even was needed to do whatever needed doing, and people just didn't pay too much attention the these victorian ideas about women's work and men's work. in the west, as in most of america today, it took two industrious partners to support a family which increased the value of women's work.

no man wanted to homestead without a wife to do all the domestic work and also, importantly, earn money from there her home production whether selling eggs or bread or taking in sewing or boarders. by the time the pioneers got to the west, they were often very cash poor. even if they wanted to hire help, there was really no help to be had, so this gave women a lot of opportunities. and the cash that they made really for the first couple years often supported their families. not surprisingly, agrarian women had their -- suitors. not enough of women, too many men, women were able to be picky. in mining towns they used their domestic skills to market hot meals and clean laundry to the overwhelmingly male population.

the pioneer woman of song and story may be the proper, bonn especiallied why have -- bonn innocented wife in her homestead, but women like -- [inaudible] have an equally valid claim to the title. in 1849 after barely surviving an especially taxing migration from missouri, she and her family arrived in the gold rush town of sacramento tattered and penniless. she was one of 3 women among 6,000 men. one morning a miner offered her -- 5 for a hot breakfast. that's -- $5 for a hot breakfast. that's about $168 today. and she noted that he would have paid her $10 if she had asked for it. he soon bought her first -- she soon bought her first boarding

house and prospered in the hospitality industry at a time when few women ran businesses elsewhere. the final hotel that she called wilson's hotel, the previous one burned down, so she loaded her cook stove in the wagon and took her kids, and they stopped at a nice spot, and they got some hay bills and she -- hay bales, and she hung up a sign, and her first guest slept on the other side of the hay bales. she was a very good cook. the west settlers' society was also free of an entrenched, high-browed establishment determined to keep women in their place. building new communities required every pr of hands, and the town mothers who organized many of the first schools, churches and charities greatly enhanced women's position in public life. one of the things that really

annoyed me when i was doing research on the book was that because women didn't have the legal right to start an institution, to found corporations, the women would do all the work at the school or the hospital, and then their husbands would appear in the newspaper that it was his school, his hospital, and he got the credit for being the town father instead of the town mother. during sarah royce's first years in gold rush california, she held church services in her family's tent. this went on for more than five years, i believe. whenhey finally settled in grants valley, california, in 1854, the teacher turned her modest one-story house into a school. her only resources was a book she had found in an abandoned

wagon, a bible, a volume of milton, some fables. her home schooled son became a famous harvard philosopher. and her daughter-in-law, as her daughter-in-law later put it, quote, wherever she was, she made civilization even when it seemed that she add had very little, indeed, from which to make it. kind of a great quote that applies to a lot of these women that we're talking about tonight. when she a arrived in central city, colorado, myra rah brown, a black freed woman, worked as a washer woman until she could start her own laundry. as her business expanded, she. >> ruledly invested -- shh rudely invested in mines and

became a philanthropist. she helped the needy of all races and other freed people to my great to colorado -- to migrate to colorado. at the age of 82 after years of searching for the four children who had been sold away during slavery, she finally found her daughter eliza jane. the local paper marked to case, describing brown as still strong, vigorous, tall, her hair thickly streaked with gray, her face kind. women like wilson, royce and brown were not considered equal to men, but they had narrowed that gap. their record of hard work and dedication won respect and made them a political force; albeit not electoral to be reckoned

with. during the civil war, small but influential groups of western women began to capitalize on two unique opportunities to get ahead. in the process, they would also be treated as equals by the federal government, a very important legal precedent. in 1862 as the civil war raged, president lincoln and his more gender-egalitarian republicans passed two ground breaking laws that recognized women's importance to the greater reconstruction. we have far too narrow an idea of the reconstruction. it actually lasted from 1845-1877, and it was meant to create a coast to coast nation that actually never existed

before. if you think about it, most of america was just sand on the east coast and the south, there was -- and gold was discovered in california, and there was a whole lott of nothing in the muddle there -- whole lot of nothing in the middle there. the greater reconstruction created this new transcontinental country by not just reunifying the south after the war, but by colonizing the west. so it's actually kind of -- if you wanted to study an interesting period of american history, i think that the greater reconstruction from 45-'77 is really worth more attention than it gets. a whole lot of stuff is going on. ..

anyway, in 1862, congress passed the homestead act which enabled e-mail as well as mail heads of households to claim 16e west. at a time when most women had few economic opportunity at all, the chance to own real estate to support an independent life but to sell later for a sizable profit was a stunning advance. bear in mind that women of ample means are wealthier women, the only thing they were allowed to have was marriage. if no one would marry them they had to more or less live as an unpaid servant for one of their male relatives, like they were

nannies or they took care of grandpa in his old age. if you were a poor woman the only opportunity to have some real domestic service, so this idea that a woman could hold her own property and support herself on her own land was really a pretty phenomenal advance. women especially didn't have the opportunity to accumulate capital. the idea that you could on this land and then sell it ended up with something like 30 30 or $40,000 in today's money was just an amazing resource. importantly, women homesteaders also attain land owners status which since the days of the founders, washington, jefferson, had been tied to citizenship and social standing here at first in america the only mentor allowed to vote or white men who owned property -- men who were -- the

women homesteaders name on tax rolls became an important argument for women's full citizenship few single women elsewhere could dream of a home of their own much less enough land for a farm but in 1873, pauline, a single 53 year old scandinavian immigrant, a lot of these women were middle-aged, filed for a homestead on the remote minnesota frontier. it was -- she lived actually near where laura ingalls wilder said her fourth book in the little house series, on the banks of plum creek was the books of pauline live right near plum creek. summers alternated with arctic winters and periodic plagues of

grasshoppers wiped out gardens and houses and farms in moments. despite the challenges, five years later when pauline finalized her claim, , she ownea 14 by 15-foot cabin, cattle, appeared and chickens. she produced or hundred bushels of wheat, , dozens of eggs and . she lived off her land for 14 years and then sold it for $1280, more than $30,000 today. to make additional income for our retirement in a in a se in town she carried the mortgage. a lot of the women homesteaders after they proved up their claims they would hang on to the land and rent it to a farmer and they wouldn't income for the rest of their lives, in many

cases, or until they wanted to do something else. this was a very unusual thing for a woman to be able to have her own money in that way. very the review 19 century as especially women have access to college and professional life it enabled. but in july 1862 just a few months after the homestead act, congress passed the moral land-grant act. the law created nearly 100 tuition free coeducational public colleges and universities. two-thirds of the schools were in the rapidly developing west which desperately needed expertise. given access to careers that enable them to support themselves, women graduates chose to delay family life now having alternatives to marriage. these these are some of thet

coeducational schools in the world, in the world, and it was -- coeducation was frowned upon in the east, as you know. college girls back east at that time went to vassar and smith and wellesley, girls schools but western girls went to college with men. given access to careers that enable them to support themselves, they could delay family life. many became teachers that almost 15% of these career oriented new women enter traditionally male fields like medicine, journalism and the law. almost twice women's national rate of 8%. that's kind of an oppressive statistic i think. in these towns between this region where people are coming up out of the mud, living in these ramshackle towns, and yet

we have twice as many women are going into the professions as back east. -- impressive. >> the classic new western women, as good as any man, willa was a dashing figure at the university of nebraska which was a land-grant school. a journalism major, who sometimes styled herself william junior and sometimes favored conventionally male haircuts and mannerisms, she was a popular editor of the college newspaper. later, as the consummate poet, she based her most beloved characters, earthy antonine of my antonia, and ambitious alexander, a full pioneers, on the women homesteaders, often

immigrants whom she had met as a girl on her grandfathers nebraska homestead. the publicized adventures of the west new women help americans come to terms with women's evolving role in a rapidly modernizing society. now we can go back to the slide because it was a rapidly modernizing society. i think -- there we go. one favorite of the american public was an eastern debutante who migrated with her minor husband. he studied mining at yale and then went west. she decided she was a talented artist. you represent the west from the distinctly female perspective in art, journalism and novels.

no heroic cowboys alone on the prairie for her. she was determined to show that women were just as important as men to western development, and that indeed the men come you could kind of tell from the demeanor of the man and woman in the picture that the men were by no means all swashbuckling heroes. but few women could compare with caroline lockhart. she's an amazing, amazing, a former wyoming night chess a special place in my heart picture began her writing career as a girl star reporter for the boston post victims like nellie bly started this thing like send the report to do something crazy and caroline would dive dia

wetsuit to the bottom of boston harbor and jump off a building into a net the firemen were holding. anyway, she went west on assignment and then fell in love with cody wyoming. she published the local newspaper. she cofounded the famous still ongoing cody stampede, and annual rodeo but she was most celebrated for her westerns, novels that challenged stereotypes of good guys and bad guys, race and gender. several of the westerns became major hollywood movies including the fighting shepherdess based on the life of lucy morrison more, the so-called sheep queen of wyoming. readers and moviegoers loved the mastery of western speech.

since we are talking playing, i don't like you know how. i don't like the way you act. i don't like the way you talk. i don't like the way your face grows on you. and if i never see you again, it will be soon enough. the hard drinking hard parting cowgirl never married but enjoyed many unofficial liaisons. at the age of 54 she became a cattle queen in her own right on her 6000-acre ranch and lived to the age of 91. just as the westgate ambitious women unique opportunities to own land and attend college, it gave them special advantages in the pursuit of more rights. indeed in 1854 just six years after seneca falls conference and one year after the

washington territory was founded, a suffrage bill failed to pass in the washington territories legislature via a single vote. the national movement made them based in east but when the cause reemerged after hiatus imposed by the civil war, suffrage first caught fire in the west. the suffrage movement was a messy fragmented phenomenon that waxed and waned over decades of internal squabbling in public debate. many suffragists did not consider people of color, including fellow suffragists, as their equals. some leaders wanted to first focus on women's right to vote in school board elections. you would think that gee, why can't women vote in school board

elections? but it was very contentious issues, if you give them an inch they will take a mile. others claimed women deserved full enfranchisement. some of them insisted that women women's equals but many more argued that women were men's moral superiors. they insisted that as municipal housekeepers, women would vote to protect and care for the homeland just as they protected and cared for their homes. what the movement lacked in ideological consistency, however, it made up for in sheer grit over three generations. in the west suffragists maximized the special advantages that women enjoyed in the

region. legislators in a sparsely populated territory were eager to increase -- that's i got more power in washington, d.c. they also wanted to entice white women because they need them to help balance with white gender ratio, and they also wanted to counter the ballots of men of color. legislatures try to lure women with liberalized laws regarding property and divorce, not just suffrage. indeed by the 1850s unhappy wives make california the first of the west many divorce mills. controversial laws such as suffrage was also much easier and loosely governed, socially fluid territories than in states encumbered by a century of laws and traditional and legal precedent.

importantly, territories transitioning into states had to write constitutions which required the legislators to debate on issues including women's legal rights and political status. finally, compared to men in the south and east, western men had witnessed women's service during ongoing settlement and were notably more receptive to their empowerment, particularly if it was to the men's own political advantage. for all these reasons, in 1869 the women of the wyoming territory who were outnumbered by men by a ratio of 91 became the first -- 921 were fully enfranchised. a year later, after hobart morris a suffragist, wyoming was

appointed as the nation's first woman judge. despite her lack of formal legal training, she was so capable that none of the 27 cases she tried were a field or reversed. she was treated by the crude press as a freakish celebrity but one respectable national weekly calder, quote, the terror of all rogues, and an infinite delight all lovers of peace in virtue. she acknowledged that her appointment was quote, , a testf women's ability to hold public office, end quote, then added that quote, in performing all of these duties i do not know that i've neglected my family any more than an ordinary shopping. i love esther. in 1870 the women of the largely

mormon utah territory were enfranchised as well. we'll see emily wells, there she is. suffrages such as the journalist emily wells who was one of her third husband second wives insisted that sister wives, that because sister wives share domestic chores, polygamy gave women more freedom. in fact, the whole enfranchisement of women in utah back to them by the republican party set the twin evils of the era were slavery and polygamy, and they assume that if they gave mormon women the vote, that mormon women would vote to eliminate polygamy but, in fact, the mormon women were just as religious as the mormon men and polygamy was part of the religion. so it backfired on the republicans.

importantly, both the wyoming and utah territories enfranchised women i half-century before the passage of the 19th amendment. it is often said that western women, western men gave women the vote but after those two gifts, other territorial and state governments responded only after women persistently lobbied for bills saw them defeated and tried tried tried again. in the 1870s and '80s, activists such as abigail scott dunaway, there she is, much later she, she really is, she's the elizabeth cady stanton of the west, and there she is visiting with the great women herself. women such as abigail fought on in legislatures and courtrooms to improve women's rights to own

property and divorce as well as vote. back abigail became a suffragist with her husband pressed a friend of his and countersigned a load of his friend, the friend defaulted on the loan and mrs. dunaway home which she shared with her five or six children, the bank seized their home. she was so outraged, she it worked a dog establishing i think their second firm, establishing the farm and giving things up and going, that she on the spot became a suffragist. and again as was true often of the early feminists, what she really wanted was women's property rights. because women have no money,, they had no power.

well, so abigail is very busy and courtrooms trying to make her case but other western women continue to accumulate political power by moving from community building to large scale social reform which was also catching on in late 19th century, later 19th century america. many women enlisted in the powerful nationwide women's christian temperance union. it began the campaign against the vices that jeopardized the family, particularly drunkenness and prostitution. before long, however, wctu embraced suffrage that included sanitation, labor regulation, food and drug laws, the rehabilitation of prostitutes, starting at kindergarten. this pragmatic shift was

especially popular in the very practical west. contrary to its image the wctu still one of the largest and most important political organizations in american history, gave tens of thousands of women aipac from the home into the larger world of personal growth -- a path -- and politics. i strongly influencing public policy before women could even vote, the wctu strengthened their claim to the rights of full citizenship. there were many, many, many more women in the temperance movement than in the suffrage movement. it's really a neglected area of american history, probably because it was dominated by women. the western western sufn stereotyped fighter eastern counterpart as white, but a surprising number of were women of color.

for native americans, hispanic, black and asian women, political activism first and foremost meant ensuring their families survival amidst the systemic racism that was just as bad in the west as in the east. many of the wes first chinese women had been sold back in china by their indigt parents or kidnapped to become sex slaves in california, yet polly who we see here, escaped from sexual slavery. she married and became a beloved homesteader on idaho's salmon river. our homestead as to how a national historic landmark. despite difficulties that we can hardly imagine, suffragist later emerged from the ranks of women

of color to amplify their people's choices as well as their sexism. they wanted to speak up for native american women, black women, asian women as well as women. they include elizabeth, a black teacher and a cofounder of colorado's nonpartisan equal suffrage association, a very important organization. this was a time when a lot of suffrage movement was itself segregated in many instances and elizabeth ensley helped provide an alternative to that. and you will meet a hispanic journalist and rights activist from texas. she shown here in her printshop. she at one point the texas rangers came to break up or printing press and she prevented

them, she barred the door and she told him -- repelled them. she prevented them from doing that. native american activist such as suzanne laface and sarah, there she is, and orator, inspired influential white women to join the fight for equality to the wes original people's. one of the recruits, helen hunt jackson, a prominent journalist, went on to write a century of dishonor, a blistering history of the government treaty violations that she sent a copy to every member of congress. so she wrote ramona, which breast me of you read, i know it used to be a high school reading lists, a perennial bestseller that prevented the same injustices of government

treatment of native peoples in more accessible fictional form, unfortunately she died before she knew that it had really captured the public attention and actually started some of the reforms that she wanted to see happen for the california mission indians. suffrages have also been stereotyped as traditional wives and mothers. what a striking number of these activists like the wes outstanding women in general was single, like a homesteader and force services first female fire lookout. or divorced like clara shortridge foltz, a mother of five who became the pacific coasts first female lawyer. she was a real firebrand. her brother became a senator. of course she should have been the senator but she actually

started the position of public defender which was considered a very radical thing. she championed public defenders and now of course they are everywhere, but the first one was in california. she was an amazing woman. she was married to a real narrative will. she left him, no legal education or anything, five little children. she studied the law, passed the bar and just went on to become a crackerjack lawyer. others were gay like montana's jeannette rankin, the first woman elected to the u.s. congress. or bisexual like adelina warren, a new mexican educator and politician. by the 1890s, huge numbers of women such as luna kelly, and

nebraska farm wife and mother of 11, helped make the west the national capital of the new aggressive politics. she was also a folk singer and a poet and she wrote a very rousing ballad called stand up for nebraska that brought everybody to their feet. progress is upheld women's rights and a poorly economic justice for average people, and opposed the corrupt lyrical machines and corporate monopolies of the eras -- political machines up until this time there certainly have been rich people in america but in two oh the gilded age which started after the civil war, there were not these enormous inequities like that separated, like the superrich from everybody else. so this was something that

americans were just coming to terms with, and that's how the progressive movement developed. the kansas homesteader turned lawyer mary elizabeth lease, cofounded the new people's party before she could even vote. the electrifying orator help audiences enthralled for hours, warning in her irish voice that the u.s. had become a government of wall street by wall street and for wall street. many progressive women also quietly helped to shape the laws of new western states, right down to the more gender-neutral wording of their constitutions. when the progressive states of colorado and idaho enfranchise women in 1893 and 1896, the west which was already the national

hotspot of suffrage because of wyoming and utah, became a global epicenter of suffragist as well showing the spotlight with the other settlers societies of australia and new zealand. as immigration surged in the early 20th century, the public heatedly debated the question of who is a real american. women wanted to know how could barely literate immigrant men could vote but an educated woman more on home soil could not? in the west suffragists pointed to women's long record of service during ongoing settlement still going on, and demanded full citizenship. devising a successful formula for winning the vote in the holdout states, suffrages built

successful coalitions with other forward-looking nonpartisan good government groups, progressive clubs, farm and labor unions,, liberal republicans, certain churches who needed women's votes to promote their own agendas. suffrage had always been a kind of the snooty middle-class upper-class thing mostly associate with white women even though there were lots and lots of women of color. and to win in the holdout states they had to break through these barriers of race and class under the banner of unity and diversity. they also recruited women from different ethnic groups, poor working women, waitresses. this was the time that women were starting to work in

factories, in the west in canneries. they were seamstresses and the lived away from home. it was a whole new working-class group had to be integrated into the suffrage movement. so all women of different races and classes were enlisted to join in an unofficial labor union of hard-working citizens, whether they were unpaid mothers at home or clerks, seamstresses and waitresses, who were entitled to move. in oregon doctor esther paul lovejoy, there she is, she's so beautiful, her pictures are dazzling, who made house calls by dogsled during the alaskan gold rush, then ran portland's board of health patted the multiracial everybody is equal suffrage league. her partners included harriet redman, job opportunities for

black women were very limited. so she worked as a janitor at the cities in u.s. district court but you also the president of portland's colored women's equal suffrage association the sophisticated third-generation western suffragists also mounted new kinds of splashy creed of campaigns that change american politicking for ever with marches, publicity stunts and the first button told maggie even electric signs. in seattle, doctor coarseness eaten, co-authored the washington women's cookbook, votes for women, good things to eat. she is also an accomplished mountaineer who had some wicked all of the state of washington's, i think there are six big peaks. she led a party of men and

women, the women had to wear knickerbockers which are sort of canvas shorts that kind of buckle under the knee. she led this party on a three-week camping trip to carry a suffrage and to the summit of mount rainier. here she is in washington. the other washington. by 1914 suffragists had one in washington, california, oregon, arizona, kansas, nevada and montana. most western women could now move before women in the single state back east. ironically, by the time of the suffragists triumphs that year, the west demography at synchronize with the rest of the country. women no longer benefited from the settlement eras unprecedented opportunities. as world war i loomed come societies conservative turn

activated by women's economic and political gains created a predictable backlash. even the rugged radio cowgirl said recently competed with men were replaced by rodeo queens who waved from their palomino was. like the history of the old west in general, the record of its women is not a seamless march of progress. their history charts jagged trajectory of advances on one front and retreats on another. progress for some and declines for others. there is no way to balance colonization benefits for white settlers and their descendents with the terrible costs to the regions original people's. or to reconcile the racism endured by women of color including within the suffrage

movement with the gains made by their sex. to move forward, however, americans must engage with the tragedies of our shared past. and also take in its triumphs including women's ongoing empowerment. before the first eastern greenhorns arrived in their covered wagon, the west had changed countless times during the 14,000 years of its a known history. indeed, its landscape of red/blue and purple continues to shift today. inspiring legacy of the overlooked westerners who helped define the independent, capable, active american woman later personified in western boots and blue jeans is an important part of that long record.

american women to journey towards the quality did not begin nor has it ended with suffrage. as the struggle continued, they can take part from their western foremothers who proved that despite formidable obstacles, change is possible, even for rules once seemingly written in stone. thank you. >> thank thank you, winnifr. that was great. we have been keeping track of questions from her audience and we have a couple to get us started. to our viewers please know that we welcome your questions now. so please post them in the q&a box and will ask them. first question, i understand that the homesteader land owner status was huge for women but why did congress pass it with that particular language? who was the instigator for

getting women into that bill and he was responsible for everyone going along with it? >> good question. a big part of it was that the west desperately needed women. it was overwhelmingly male, as we talked about earlier, and he really wanted to get women into the west to have families. the settlement of the west really was a matter of settlement. it wasn't so much like the cavalry. there was terrible genocide of indians, but the colonization occurred really through settlement, like people starting farms and villages and towns and just moving the native american, hispanic people had been out of the way. so settlement was really, settlement really conquered the west. you couldn't do that without women to be wives and mothers endure the children and increase

the number. it was also, lincoln and the republicans, his branch of liberal minded republicans, were more generally gender egalitarian. both parties worship and adored and respected women, but the republicans were much more inclined to give them legal empowerment. in fact, it was a big bone of contention in the suffrage movement that they wouldn't enfranchise women when they enfranchised formally enslaved men. the republicans were afraid that if you put the women in it would be too much and it wouldn't be able to get the black men enfranchised. there were a lot of factors at work but i think the fact they really needed women for settlement is a big one.

>> great, thank you. here's another question that just came in. i don't recall the names of the women that winifred identified as gay. i'm curious if these women lived openly as lesbians during that timeframe? >> yeah, that's an interesting question. it's very hard to identify western women as gay because unlike certain gay men, they would get arrested for doing something that was illegal in a particular town and they would appear in papers but there was no -- and was considered perfectly fine. i mean, it was considered perfectly fine for women to be best friends. they hugged each other, kissed each other, slept in the same beds. they lived together, maiden ladies or in a boston marriage. so there was no -- attached to

women living and having partnerships with other women. but i think, i think the number i want to say about 4% of women in the west in this era lived either alone or with another woman. and i was really struck by the number in the book who had come the closest relationships were with other women. >> gosh. >> francis, the president of the wctu who we talked about, she was known as, she's now described as the eleanor roosevelt of her day. she was a real fireball come very much like eleanor roosevelt unlike eleanor roosevelt ship relationships with men and women. >> okay, thank you. what was the background and incentive for men, , were there any, who championed women

struggle for achievement and equality? >> you know, that's a really good question, and the work enormous number of good guys in the west, demonstrably more than in the east or the south, particularly the south, not so many men there. -- not submitting suffragist men there. one man said my wife is a smart as any man and smarter than most, like there's just a sense especially in this settler society where everybody was pitching in. the women were working as hard as the men and doing a lot of the stuff the men did and it was just in that kind of very practical like medic culture, like why would you say that she couldn't vote when she does everything that i do? so i think there was real general fairness. like i mentioned in the speech the washington territory in

1854, the territory was on one year old, and suffrage lost by one vote. they were men voting. i think we have to give the man credit, western men credit. >> okay. >> because all of those, without men none of those suffrage bills would have been passed. the women had to talk me into supporting them. that's really very good point. >> was the western woman inclination to be more inclusive or expansive in their efforts women of several different backgrounds part of their success? where it may have heard the groups from the east. >> yes, i think so. although to be fair, women i think were doing, the savages back east were doing so poorly, they didn't get their first

state intel, like what was a, 1915 or 1916? they were just losing across the board here you could sort of tell from the pictures of elizabeth cady stanton and susan b. anthony. these are very well educated upper-class women. they considered themselves ladies. they dressed like ladies. but they were not getting very far with that. so you had to reach out i would say both in the east and the west on just those class borders and the race borders, which certainly in the west, because the west actually was more multiracial than they east coast. there again it was just part of this is a settler society, we don't have so many laws and rules and regulations here. >> that racial question just came in from one of our viewers saying if the western states

that encourage suffrage were primarily white, what about suffrage for native american women? >> some native american women and men didn't get the vote until the 1920s, and even later. a number -- gets, get it. a number of native american women and men did get the vote when an act was passed, the people who promoted, thought it would be a wonderful thing for native americans but it turned out to be a disaster. it enabled the tribal reservations to be -- that the give to different people. if you claimed one of those plots, sort of like a hosted, you also got the right to vote. some did get the right to vote but, i mean, a lot of native women, as we talked about sarah

and suzanne, a campaign for suffrage because they wanted to empower their people. it wanted to give their native peoples more of a voice. it was for them, it was -- to be a native suffragist or black suffragist or hispanic or asian suffragist was more complicated thing than to be a white suffragist who was just interested in getting the vote for her sex. this was a more complicated story. >> okay. speaking of complicated stories and going back to the earlier question about gay women in the west -- >> this was a lot of fun working on. >> someone wrote in to say, this is kind of great come she said i'm probably very naïve, but how do we get the information about

the sexual preferences of these women? i find this fascinating but genuinely curious about the source for this information. >> there had been academics have researched it and have done some digging through records. there are occasional cases where a woman was either -- she was suffering from a mental illness or somebody else that she was suffering from a mental illness so they got into the papers. there are some records like that a lot of them come from census figures. if you see a woman who has a lit by yourself or with another woman for a certain time, and this was in this whole era like 95% of women married. it was kind of what was happening. so women who remain single and are reported in the census. the other ways to tell was

sometimes money, if they had, women who had some property, some possessions. so there were those -- i think mostly as you get later in the century certainly with frances willard, the president of the wctu, and a lot of the other women, they let correspondence with a person who was her soulmate and can you say are you sure? even willa, you see pictures of willa with kind of her crew cut and necktie and chatted very patchy relationship with a female student when she was at university of nebraska. do we know what they did in bed? no, we don't. even academics resist come saying we can ask her say she was gay even though all of her abiding relationships were with other women.

>> this is also fascinating. okay, next question. when suffrage was passed, you may have covered this already and i apologize if i missed it, but when suffrage was passed for women in the various states, did the right to vote include any minority women? did minority women have the right to vote when suffrage was passed? >> yes. you mean, in the states? >> yes. >> included minority women. >> included minority women, although it does get tricky. in certain cases native american women were not enfranchised. different states have different ideas about the legal rights of native people. some were relatively progressiv progressive. progressive. oregon was notably not progressive at all.

even after the 19th amendment was passed in 1920, native american women still, some native americans still were not enfranchised. so it's very difficult to say, to make a global statement. i would have to look at each state and see. >> okay. >> generally, generally yeah, if you could -- if you could, if you could, if you could prove that you were a citizen, i would say yes, you could vote. >> great, thank you. next question. were their there traditios end quote, traditional women who worked against women's progressive politics as they were in our day? for instance, the women who help defeat the era. >> yes. there was a very vigorous anti-suffrage movement that s called the anti-suffrage party.

they were, in fact, george patons mother, i think beatrice patton, led the troops. she come in california, he grew up in california and they said if women got the vote they would grow mustaches, that men would have to stay home and change the diapers and the women would be cavorting around injury boxes. for some idea dead this idea women would be courting the main in jury boxes. there was a very vigorous anti-suffrage movement in both places but i would say it was more do you like in the east. obviously it was. >> okay -- more virulent. >> i'm impressed that the women accomplished so much with equal requirements of marriage, childbirth and child rearing.

how did they balance all of this? [laughing] >> it really is especially when women like abigail scott dunaway who i call the mother western suffrage. she was a homestead daughter. her parents went west and covered wagon. she grew up on homestead. she married a homestead or when was like 14 or 15. she had her five or six children. they develop one homestead, they sold it. they develop another homestead and he lost it all in a stupid legal maneuver. nothing daunted her and then he got hurt in a wagon accident and could never work again. so abigail moved the whole family to portland, started up a woman's newspaper and start campaigning for suffrage, and some al-qaeda supported everybody. so these women were made of

sterner stuff for sure. >> sterner than me, that's for sure. >> i have five children and i can't even fantasize what they must have -- >> me neither. just amazing. this this is a specific quesn about the homestead act and acreage. good men and women equally qualified for the 180 acres? >> it was 160. >> 160. 160. for a couple was that doubled? >> depends on where you were. in oregon, in 1850, the donation land claims act was actually seeing as a way, as a sign of women's empowerment because a single guy could only get 160 acres, a married man and his wife could get 320. she couldn't get it on her own but as a couple they could get

320. 320. mostly it was 160 acres. the homestead laws did not allow -- in a funny way they -- a wife could not find her own claim separately from her husband. so in a way it privileged single women, many of them were widows, abandoned, various states of singleness. >> okay, thank you. this is a question to you. was there ever a point in your research that you felt gratitude for being born in this timeframe? or did you feel like you were born in the wrong century? >> no. i think, however discourage we get and it's easy to get discouraged these days in america, between the pandemic and our polarization, if ever there was a good time to be a woman it is now.

if you look at what these women went through, they were really, they were chattel. harriet beecher stowe, the author of "uncle tom's cabin," famously said that a married woman has the same rights as the slaves. no more no less. they were basically their husbands property. the way they built their evolution from taking their domestic authorities that they had in their home, taking it out to you merely by starting community organizations, then broadening up to social reform, and then finally suffrage. it was amazing, their efforts. and i think of my own mother, did not have the opportunities that her brother had. and this is just one generation back. i can remember when i was in

high school and college reading articles in young women's magazine saying if you're going out with a boy and you were taller, you better where flat shoes. don't act too smart, you know? act in a little dumb. this isn't all that long ago. so yeah, i think we have a great deal to be thankful for. >> i agree. >> we are just about out of time and running out of questions. some going to leave you with this last question that circles back to your book. who was your favorite woman from the book? >> it's a really hard question but i do love doctor esther lovejoy. we did see her picture. she was the one with the washing clothes in the tub and her husband who was a surgeon. she was born in a logging camp,

very poor family, huge, big family, lots of children. she had almost no schooling but she was very impressed by the woman doctor who delivered one of her baby sisters, and she said to herself when i i grewp i'm going to be a doctor. by the time she was a teenager her parents had finally moved into portland. they work in in a hotel, andf the guests in the hotel was a professor and he started tutoring her. she was very bright and she, by the time she got to the point where she could apply to medical school she clerked in some of the first department stores in the west. she was a sales clerk, to make money for her tuition money to go to the university medical school. she was one of three women and her class. this was around 1890-ish. she married a surgeon in her class and they took off -- they

practice for a little while in portland and they said no, this is not exciting enough. they took off to the alaska gold rush, did house calls on dog sleds, started a hospital, prevented some terrible epidemic. she came back to portland, only visited him then for summers, had her baby, got her mother to watch the baby. she carried on her medical practice, started the suffrage campaign, broke all kinds of class and race barriers, ended up running for congress in 1920. she didn't win but she spent the rest of her life working for women's medical associations, no cure here and internationally, and wrote to macbooks. >> just an astounding woman. it's a pleasure, everybody should look her up just a you could see your pretty pictures. >> that's fantastic. thank you thank you so . what a fascinating evening of fascinating women.

we wish you all the best with the book, and i thank you so much for joining us tonight. i do want to remind our audience that "new women in the old west: from settlers to suffragists, an untold american story" is available for sale from our partner booksellers politics and prose. we are putting up a link in the chat box right now, , and he followed that link you can get a 10% discount on on the book. i would also like to extendwel'n

talking about your 1864 and we're going to start with the action in virginia in 1864. focusing specially now today on the action in may in june. and the famous duel between

ulysses s grant and robert e lee. the big showdown between in each case the best general that each side had i think this campaign has been more misunderstood and misinterpreted than maybe any other campaign in the civil war. i think the reason reason is because of expectations. younow today in politics you would see say there's a presidential campaign. the primary campaign is going on and several candidates are seeking the nomination of one of the parties and they're coming up on one of the nominating the primers the state primary and you'll typically you'll hear some politicians say oh if i finish in the top three, that will be a win that if i to finish in the top three, i'll be very happy or something like that. and of course, he's trying to manage expectations. because if he does that successfully and if people and the press and so forth buy it,

yeah top three finishes a win for him and he finishes number two, you know. oh wow, that's great. you know he exceeded expectations. but on the other hand if he doesn't bother to manage expectations or if he's not successful at it doesn't get people to buy it then you know, he finished his second. oh, wow. what a loser. what a defeat for him. he finished second the thing with this campaign right here. what's called the overlyan campaign grands campaign up to the point that he gets to petersburg. is that promoting there. yeah the thing with this is that the guy who finishes first winds up being looked at as a loser because of expectations. now grant we've already met grant before and we've seen some of the reasons why expectations are high for him. so we saw his brilliant success

at the battle of fort donaldson which catapulted him to national recognition fame and promotion to major general and then we saw him stand off a very determined confederate counter-attack at shiloh in 1863. he conducted a brilliant campaign of maneuver in the interior of mississippi. which enabled him that was in may of 63, which enabled him to besiege vicksburg? which then six weeks later surrendered to him. not only the town of vicksburg confederate bastion in the mississippi, but the confederacy's main army in mississippi, which was trapped in vicksburg as a result of grants campaign and the victory at vicksburg ultimate winds up within a few days giving the union complete control of the mississippi river. it's a huge success not a turning point, but certainly another nail in the confederacy's coffin and then in

the fall of 1863 grant is brought into remedy a situation that has risen from a disaster that happened to william s rosecrans. rosecrans was defeated at the september 1920 19 to 20th 1863 battle of chickamauga rosecrans, then allowed himself to be sort of quasiabassiged inside chattanooga and they bring in grant and grant. straightens things out defeats confederates at the in the november battle of chattanooga wins a big victory and at this point grant's reputation has become huge nationwide and there's virtually a really a consensus among the northern people not unanimity, but heavy majority the northern people are very eager to see grant promoted given command of all the union armies and there's really a

feeling that as commander of all the union armies grant ought to at least a company the army of the potomac if not actually outright commanded. in virginia and take on lee and finally beat lee and accomplish what the union's been trying to do futally that that union futility and virginia now for three years that grant should do that that should happen. northern politicians are for it. actually. it's a bipartisan thing. it's not just republicans who want to see that happen. it helps that grants political background is unclear grant by this time really is a republican but his and it seems for more democrat and he's never been very political. anyway, so both parties are eager to see a main general. in fact the democrats kind of would like to recruit him to run for president in 64, which he's hearing nothing of that won't have that at all. but he gets that promotion

lincoln is is eager to promote him. he gets the promotion to lieutenant general. the only lieutenant general three-star general in the union army at that time the only person to hold the rank of full three-star lieutenant general since george washington kind of a select company there. winfield scott we saw before was a brevet lieutenant general three stars. will honorary lieutenant general grant is a regular full lieutenant general outranks every officer in the union army and officially is given the position of commanding general of all the union armies. and yeah, it's like here you go grant here are the keys take it away win the war for us. and i don't think there was anything grant could have done. to have managed expectations after all that the expectations were that grant was going to come to virginia. he was going to win.

quickly cheaply and easily that within a matter of weeks grant would of course when the war and certainly by the end of the summer. yeah. grant will have won the war lee will be defeated in everything will be fine. and of course that is radically unrealistic. the generals that grant had defeated in, mississippi and at chattanooga were good generals confederate generals, john, pemberton and mississippi braxton bragg in chattanooga. they were good generals, but they were decidedly second cheer. albertsoni johnston was viewed as a first-year general. we really don't know how good or bad. he was grant beat him too quickly. and then he died at shiloh. but lee is obviously the best that confederacy has lee's stature and reputation are towering dominating. the his soldiers had very high

morale. they really don't believe he can be defeated. they don't believe they can be defeated. this is going to be stand them in good stead and they are quite good and lee has put together quite a bit of a winning team one advantage that lee has had and putting together a winning team with the army of northern virginia. is that lean knows how to handle jefferson davis and when lee once an officer transferred out of my army, this guy's not getting the job done. davis will let him do it now lee. lee has to do it right lee has to use some tact and some finesse, but he knows how to do that and he can get it done and so lee has the team that he wants there in virginia. well, he doesn't have stonewall jackson because he's dead. he would have liked to have had him. but otherwise lee gets to get the officers he wants there in virginia and he's got a good team. he's very good his men are good. his army's good.

so it is totally unrealistic to expect grant to win within a matter of weeks. or to win very cheaply and easy and another another unrealistic aspect of expectations about what we're going to be seeing here. was that that somehow? not that picture. let's look at this one somehow. with an officer like grant people expect that he's going to call his shots. he's gonna be like babe ruth the famous time that he points to the center field stands and then hits the ball there. i think ruth probably got lucky. but you really have to get lucky to be able to do that. so here's a plan. i'm going to do this and this and actually to some degree grant actually did that is we'll see but you know grant really is an opportunistic general. he will look for you to make mistakes if you're as opposing general he will look for you to make mistakes. he will take advantage of them. and so he can't necessarily tell

you everything that's going to happen in the campaign before it does. so anyway, grant does we're gonna see is grant does pretty well, but because he doesn't meet the expectations that unreasonable expectations that people had going into the campaign. both then that summer of 64 and since then there's been a tendency to look at this campaign as a failure for grant as a success for lee. i'm an argue that it was not that at all. all right, so grant. all right, go over there. great experience plans for this campaign now. i'm going to briefly just tell you really quick. in addition to a campaign through virginia, you can see this old map of the interior, virginia. label this railroads to chnd. you've we've we've discussed this topic already review it in a minute.

before i discuss that grant does have a couple of peripheral campaigns planned in virginia. it's not just the grants going to take the army of the potomac and he's not going to be the army of the potomac commander. he's gonna we'll get to that in a minute. but he is going to be supervising the army the potomac directly, but from a distance he's going to be supervising a couple of other other small armies and peripheral campaigns. that he hopes will pay off for him. one of those is going to be in the shenandoah valley now. we've seen the shenandoah valley before we saw jackson was out there and made a real headache. for the union in the spring of 62. well grant's going to send an army into the shenandoah valley. small army, which he hopes will keep the confederates from using the shannon to a valley to distract from his main campaign. and hopefully will distract some confederate troops out there himself. he's also going to send another small army on a campaign

somewhat similar to what we saw mcclellan do back in 62. that is approach richmond from the rivers going to off the map here. but the rivers well, yeah right here. james river right there now mcclellan, you know went up the york river and then followed the richmond new york river railroad for various reasons. this little peripheral campaign that grants planning the smaller army is going to go along the james river. and we'll be able to strike either for richmond. or for the smaller town of petersburg so what about petersburg well? in order for the confederates feed lee's army. the people of richmond they need supplies. supplies, come on. four railroads the confederates would have to keep at least two of those railroads. at least two in order to keep richmond fed to keep lee's army

fed to maintain their position in virginia. okay, so they've got to keep two out of the four. three out of the four come together at petersburg. so if the union that union forced that subsidiary arm is smaller army. i'm going to tell you about little more in a minute were to go to petersburg and take petersburg now and the commander has an option go for richmond go for petersburg. if the confederates cover richmond leave petersburg uncovered and that smaller union army takes petersburg. the confederates are done in richmond. they will not be able to hold richmond. they will not be able to maintain lee's army nor the richmond and they're gonna lose northern virginia most of the state really so this is very this is a very sensitive target. the grant is poking out with a smaller army. it could be grant's entirely open to the possibility that while he is up here in northern virginia directly supervising the army of the potomac.

these guys will win the war. well, it might happen. and so any hopes without by stretching lee and all those directions he will be able to gain an advantage over him. well that leads to another problem though. another thing that grants going to have to deal with is here. so he's got good things going for him and there's some things against him. going against grant is the problem that this is 1864. this is an election year. and there's going to be a presidential election lincoln is up for reelection. now there were actually some republicans. who said and suggested to lincoln we ought to postpone the election. let's not hold this election in the midst of a civil war. it's a huge civil war going on. the major faction of the democratic party at this time. believes that the wars of failure they've been saying for years the wars of failure we on a negotiate and kind of the

subtext of that is and accept confederate independence. so if the if the democrats were to win this election, there's a chance historian still argue about how much of a chance there's a chance. the confederacy could become independent. and there's almost a certainty that emancipation would be revoked. that slavery would survive. so people had said to lincoln you ought to cancel this election and lincoln said no. we're fighting. to preserve self-government. we're fighting against the idea that if you lose the election you get to start a war and see if it can win it with the war when you couldn't win it in an election and we're fighting against that kind of idea. and if we were to postpone the election because of the war. we've already lost the cause we were fighting for. yeah, we postpone the election so we say in power. but we were fighting to maintain the id of self-government so we can't do that. we're going to hold the election exactly a scheduled we're going

to do exactly what the constitution says. right but politics is tricky and how's that going to affect grants campaign? well for one thing it means there's going to be a lot of scrutiny. it's going to be important. but another thing and i've already told you about the idea of political generals. that these are generals. who are actually politicians because we can't trust the experts. i'm not saying that but i mean the people kind of there's a belief among the people. i know this sounds incredible today, but we can't trust experts they've been educated in this they've studied this so in their naturally bad at it we need to we need to trust guys. you don't know anything about it. i and so that i yeah that idea was around back there too specifically with to the military. and so they've got political generals and so why do you why are these guys generals because it will gain political support. and grant has been very

respectful of lincoln's need to have some political generals now and then guys like mclaren and grant tolerated him for quite a while. grant knows that in this year of 1864 lincoln's going to need to have some some of these political generals guys. these guys have been in the army for a while and they haven't necessarily done well. but they're going to need to have important roles because they garner important political support for lincoln and unfortunately, but probably unavoidably both of these two subsidiary campaigns wind up being under political generals. the campaign out in the shenandoah valley. actually, there's the shenandoah river that's right out there. the campaign out in the shenandoah valley is entrusted to a german-born general in france eagle. now i think 20th c history. well actually 18 19th century history too is showed us that german-born generals can be very good indeed. but francisco was not.

he was not very good, but he has this command. you just hope that maybe this time he'll perform better and he'll do something good, hopefully. and then the command of this smaller expedition along the james river this goes to a real american-born guy named benjamin butler. he's a massachusetts politician a democrat. and he's important so the lincoln needs these guys. he needs siegel because having siegel in uniform helps link and win the german-american vote. there's a lot of german-american voted that time. having been butler an important command helps secure lincoln the support of new england democrats or former democrats who might vote for lincoln. so ben butler's important, too. and this leads to where i can dismiss these subsidiary campaigns and say they're not going to do anything much

because both guys performed at the level we've come to expect from political generals. thus both subsidiary campaigns were complete failures. butler didn't take richmond didn't take petersburg. got his command a bottled up in the end of a peninsula between the james and appomattox rivers and that was that the confederates were able to contain him with minimal force and detach the rest of their troops to lee ziegel also failed in the shenandoah valley. so these two subserior campaigns that had the potential to help grant a lot. you know, they're out. so now it's going to be all on grant. and the army of the potomac which he is not commanding, but he is supervising. more in that in a moment. well, yeah, it's time for that not right now. let's talk about the because this is a problem that grant has what would really work best we

can say this with the benefit of hindsight is that would work best if as if there were two of ulysses grant and one of them commanded the army of the potomac and the other one commanded all the armies of the union, but unfortunately, there aren't two and of course the confederacy would like to clone robert e lee too so they can't do that. you can't clone grant. you could potentially and maybe this would have been better. it's hard to say. you could just give grant say all right, grant you're going to wear two hats your commander the army of the potomac. you're also commander of all union armies mcfolin actually had that job briefly in spring of 62. it didn't work out well. and it probably you can't expect that to work. that's too big a job for one man. something's going to get neglected. so grant is traveling. what grant does he makes his headquarters with the army of the potomac headquarters,

actually grant and the headquarters of grant and the headquarters of the army of the potomac's commander general george, gordon meade. are kind of co-located they're literally adjacent to each other most of the time during the campaign. we're going to talk about and but grant grant tells me, you know, i want you to be as independent as you would be if you were commanding the army of the potomac and i was in washington. but that can't be that's not realistic. that's not going to happen. so in that grant really is trying to do something you can't do. because grant is present with the army so grants responsible for what the army does if grant were in, washington. and me decided to do something dumb with the army. i grant would be responsible in the sense that he was in command of me, but he wouldn't have known what happened in so grand can see me. what did you do, you know? whereas when grants present with the army, he's responsible to a greater degree. he almost has to intervene and

tell need no don't send those guys over there. send them over here now don't send that core around there. send it around here. he's got to do that. and so this sets up a constant tension through the whole campaign really through the rest of the war. between grant trying to supervise mead and yet trying to give me some degree of independence to let him command of the army of potomac. probably again, what might might be better would have would be if need recognized himself as almost a sort of a chief of staff in the army of the potomac and i like the idea that what i think would have been better. there would have been problems with it. but for grant to bring his friend james b mcpherson out from the west and i think mcpherson and grant would have worked well together with mcpherson being sort of army of the potomac commander kind of glorified. chief of staff and just sort of run the army walk grant tells it what to do. as it was mead was constantly

feeling resentful of grant. he's always telling me what to do and grant it, you know, it reminds me of a parent teaching their child to ride a bicycle. you know, it's all right. now you get in the bicycle and you've got your hands on them, you know, and all right that's needs on the bicycle right and grants the dad and okay, okay and take your hands away and oh, they start wobbling and grab again, you know and i it was kind of like that. grant keeps trying to take his hands away from mead mead keeps making mistakes, which that has to intervene. you've got the problem that means upset because grant has intervened meanwhile meat has made several mistakes, which across the army a lot. and that's a problem. they have throughout this campaign. okay. anyway, so grant's going to command the army potomac the potomac now. we've already been. several times over the idea that there are a limited number of ways. you can take an army to richmond and supply it. and so there is the origin

alexandria railroad going from alexandria, virginia down to gordonsville. you catch the virginia central and ride that down to richmond. it's the longest way. but and another problem with it is in this upper reaches of the orange and alexandria. it's vulnerable to confederate guerrillas. confederates can raid and potentially disrupt your supplies. but that's at least one way you can go. okay. another way is the richmond in fredericksburg railroad from the mouth of aquia creek on the potomac there straight down to richmond. it's short it's direct it's got problems too in 18 late. 1862, december 62 ambrose burnside tried this at the army the potomac and found that although you can force your way across across the rappahannock at fredericksburg. it's almost impossible to force your way up out of the bottom lens of the rappahannock river

onto the bluffs beyond it. and lost a battle that way. and in the spring of 63 joseph hooker with the army of the potomac tried going around fredericksburg that way and that didn't work all that. well, either it maybe could have but it failed. so there are real problems getting past the rappahannock river on the orange and alexandria railroad. oh and in other problem by the way back here with the excuse me that richmond and fredericksburg with the richmond frederick on the origin alexandria. there's a problem that robert e. lee has his army deployed and heavily dug in. yeah, just south of the rapidan around orange courthouse. so that's a problem. you're gonna have to do something about that. if you're grant, if you say well we're gonna follow the line of the origin alexandria. you're really what you're gonna have to do is you're gonna have to turn loose of the railroad cut your supply line maneuver away from your supply line for a while, which is very dangerous.

usually grant would do that. in fact if granted had the army that he had with him out in in mississippi. he would have done that. he knew them knew the officers knew they how they worked but. not being familiar with the army of the potomac didn't want to do something that risky. so that's not an option. of course you could go. up the peninsula the way mclellan did following these these large rivers here these estuaries. and we've seen that grant is sending a minor expedition to a to futility here that he didn't want them to go to futility, but they did. but there are problems with this and in fact lincoln almost would not tolerate the main union force in virginia the army the potomac going down there again, the thing with mclaughlin who worked out so badly the confederated left, northern, virginia, so wide open lincoln doesn't like that and really is just not going to let that happen. so that's not that's a non-starter for grant. now what grant is going to do?

he's going to use a combination of all three plants. his army is on the orange and alexandria railroad near culpeper. when he starts out. so and leah's eltham, so grant is going to angle so i'll get oriented here. there we go. it's going to angle across the rapidan river there. angling to the southeast like that towards the little courthouse town of spotsylvania. and if you can get to spotsylvania before lee does leah's is blocking his root over here. grant's going to go that way if lee if grant can get down there before lee dies grant's going to get a head start and if he can get there before lee does he will actually be in the enviable situation of being closer to richmond than lee is and lee will be in a lot of trouble at that point lee is almost checkmated if grant can do that.

grant and grant would be willing to accept the quick victory, you know all those expectations for victory in two weeks leads to army destroyed in a month or whatever. grand wouldn't mind he'll give it a shot if you can't. but he's also. realistic enough to know probably he's going to have to play out the whole campaign. what he plans to do is basically and he's got this in mind not the details of it, of course, but in broad and broad terms is to keep moving to the southeast and circle around richmond. to the east if you can get straight into richmond sure take it. but on the other hand. he thinks probably and he tells a staff officer before the campaign starts. so they're still up here for the armies have left their camps. tells the staff officer. actually several of his staff officers. when we get here, and he points to petersburg when we get here. the world will be over. and it's pretty close to being

true. so anyway, the campaign begins in may of 64 so you can see there. grant starts out north of the rapid end crosses the rapid end early in may. and lee meets him. we as and i don't think grant really thought lee was going to let him. you know steal a march all the way to spotsylvania, which is there. yeah. lee meets him over here. and this is an area that is favorable to lee. it's unfortunate. the grain has to go through it, but there's no other way to get there. it's called the wilderness of spotsylvania. it's an area of i don't know 30 or 40 square miles of area where during colonial times in the 1700s. there were large iron order but

no small iron ore deposits found there. they were large but the standards of colonial virginia. they were small by the standards of anything else. they found iron ore there. the iron ore played out it by the mid-1700s. but by that time they had cut down most of the forests around there to burn them to smelt the iron ore. so with the forest cut down what came back was a second growth. not a climax forest but a second growth and you've got low scrubby woods with a lot of thickets. it's very thick for us. now today our forests tend to go into thickets anyway for various reasons. one thing is we don't grades catalan hogs in their woods like they tend in the woods like they tend to graze catalan hogs in the woods, which kept the understory of the woods grazed out, but they're especially because the woods have been cleared out the soil apparently wasn't that great and what you've got is an area of maybe like i say 30, maybe 40 square miles of thickets mostly very

thick very dense artillery is useless in that terrain. advantages in numbers are almost useless now that lee really wants to fight there if you can and they do fight a battle there now, it's not the greatest place for grant to fight but grant is eager to fight lee any place he can get to him. and so they fight a battle here on the sixth and seven. well, they say fifth to 7th. yeah 57th of may. 1864 it's the first battle between lee and grant it is very intense at times. very unpleasant. it's a lot of its thought it close range because visibility is short within those trees. there's a lot of confusion again because of the thickets and the terrain so grant is not able to make that sort of that free dash to spotsylvania. he fights lee first, but even at that grant almost wins it all right here in the wilderness.

and because grant had you know, he thought if he could get a shot at lee if he could. bring me into battle. he might be able to beat him and he almost did. and there's a famous episode on the second day of the battle and with one of the few large clearings. there are amongst the wilderness grants. grant had launched a big attack and it broke through and it had broken through lee's lines and were about to get to lee's supply wagons, and it was pretty much going to terrilies army in half take out his supply wagons and be the end. and how close this was to the absolute and utter dumen end of the army of northern virginia can be seen in the reaction of robert e lee and if anybody knows if the army of northern virginia is in big trouble would be the man. and he was and he knew that it was and what lee does is to react in utter desperation as the only reinforcements he can find start coming what happens

to be the texas brigade arrives lee actually places himself in front of this brigade and starts to lead them in. an infantry attack lee is going to lead on horseback and infantry. haven't we seen a high ranking confederate general do that before? yes, we have. and that was the end of albertsoni johnston and now lee's going to do that. and i think what that tells me is that lee recognized that this is it this he's practically doomed at this point. and so this is an act of utter desperation. what happens is the texans the soldiers of texas brigade? force lead to turn back is they they're shouting lead to the rear lead to the rear and it's the first of a couple of lead to the rear incidents that occur during this campaign. they actually take grab the reins of lee's horse and turn traveler his famous horse and they turn travelers head and

make lee go to the rear and they wouldn't go forward until he turned back to the river. he reluctantly did. and the counterattack by the texas brigade and other troops of fields division were able to plug that hole. and hold the line. and the day was saved for the army of northern virginia, but it almost wasn't it's very close. after two really hard days of fighting there at the wilderness and a day of really standoff grant. was able to go around the flank of lee's army. he just was able to move off and that direction got some pictures here. i want to show you these are actually done by artists who went along with the army potomac and were sketching. so these are the closest thing we would get to an action picture here. there are crossing the rapper the rapidan river. and here's act a scene the

sketch artist mad from position behind the union line of battle as they were engaged with the confederates whom you can almost not see over there. they're very hard to see. and there again another shot of unionin of battle engaged and this is again a guy sketching it with a pad in paper from position behind the lines. this is a sketch of made again by an artist who's on the scene. the reaction when grant of his staff and mead with his staff is their riding along the road leading to the south. they passed by the positions of some of the troops the army of potomac and this is the first that the troops the army potomac realized. we wanted to battle against lee. we advanced into virginia. we fought a battle. and we're advancing. first time that's happened that has not happened before not under mclellan. pope burnside hooker every time

the army the potomac advances in virginia and they fight a battle. and they go back and they retreat this time. they fought a battle against the army of northern virginia and their advancing. it was a hard battle casualties were high. i was i'm very unpleasant experience, but we won this battle. we're advancing now. how do you decide who wins the battle soldiers by the way, they're cheering here. i don't know if you can see they're waving their hats and cheering there was quite a cheer a grant was eager to get them to be quiet because we don't want lee to know where we're moving any place. how do you know who won a battle is it is the side that one the side that suffers fewer casualties you know, we haven't gotten to world war two yet, but if the side that takes the fewest casualties is the winner. then irwin rommel won d-day. right and the united states lost and currently bradley was thrown back into the sea and we'd all be speaking german today. well known not exactly but no that it's not how you figure out

who wanted that it's who gets more of what he wants of the situation that he wants afterwards and the person who gets what he wants after the battle is grant. he's colliding with lee and then he is just slid off. you want to use a sporting analog just like a running back who hits a linebacker and bounces off and goes around him and tearing down the field and that's exactly what happened. so grant. has hitly here and he moves down here. again, if grant can get the spotsylvania before lee does leah's virtually checkmated and he almost does it is very close. perhaps a matter of less than an hour the confederate troops getting into position and the circumstances that led to that were complicated. the woods were on fire one of the things that made that battle of the wilderness. so unpleasant the woods can't fire. but because the woods were on fire the confederates did not stop for rests along that march.

they just kept marching which worked out for them while he was very tireing, but they marched through the night in very dense smoky woods, very unpleasant circumstances, but they got there with maybe 30 minutes to spare. also there was a controversy about the union cavalry the cavalry of the army of the potomac. the commander of the calvary of the army potomac was one of few officers that grant brought with him from the western theater to command to command something in the east this is general philip sheridan. sheridan has not commanded calvary in the western theater his commanded an infantry division. but there was a saying in the civil war whoever saw a dead calvaryman and there was a belief that calvary don't really fight. so grant wanted sheridan, you know, i want you to come in. i want you to make the cavalry fight like infantry. and sheridan he doesn't invent

this idea. he just advances this idea. we're going to use cavalry like like mounted infantry like you know a sort of a mobile in a modern battlefield a motorized infantry unit. but maybe because sheridan wasn't familiar with calvary operations, maybe. he didn't do a good job of getting his cavalry out in front where they were supposed to be and getting them to spotsylvania first when they needed to be there. is controversial because some people defend sheridan and some people agree with mead that not sheridan did a bad job. in fact, there was a huge row between sheridan the calvary commander of the army of the potomac and george meade the overall command of the army of the potomac undergrad. both men were known to have terrible tempers. and their tempers were in true form on this day. and they had a just a shouting

match. probably we didn't get recorded word for word, which is probably just as well. but it was was pretty pointed. and mead was furious and he went over to grant. he says grant, you know, sheridan says if i just turn him loose he could go and whip the confederate cavalry under jeb stuart. and grant says insurance say that it says yes, he did. grants as well. sheridan usually knows what he's talking about. go ahead and let him. so he turned sheridan loose. and sheridan let it raid. there's judge stewart the confederate calvary med commander. we've met him before. he's a legend by now. and so while grants and lee face off at spotsylvania their respective cavalry course go galloping off across the country and actually collide all the way down here just outside of richmond at yellow tavern. the fight was inconclusive sheridan got back to union lines.

joint butler and then eventually rejoined grant. but significance of yellow tavern was jeb stuart was morally wounded died the next day turned out the confederates had a decent bench in the area of calvary leader, and they got they had another good leader after that but at least sharon or at least stuart was out of the fight. back though to this situation so grant almost grant's forces almost got this spotsylvania before lee but not quite lee takes it. there's a standoff for several days. grant season opportunity to launch a major assault by this time yeah by this time here's another sketch by someone who's there, i don't know if you tell what's going on but there' a trench all the way along here they're starting to dig trenches. they're starting to buildog

breastworks. they're starting to bld lot more in the way of field fortifications and entrenchments. troops have tended to do that in this war consistently after they've had a heavy fight. what's happening in this campaign? is they have a heavy fight and then they stay in contact and keep fighting at spotsylvania both sides built strong login trenchments and log breast works and entrenchments and you can go to spotsylvania today to the battlefield. and the trenches have slumped in a lot and there's grass growing over them, but you can still distinctly follow the lines you can walk the lines because of these the ditches that they had. sometimes it's a trench. sometimes it's the ditch in front of the long breastworks. well grant saw a vulnerability in the confederatein and launched a major assault. and it almost succeeded this led to the second lead to the rear incident just as we st the battle o the wilderness. so at spotsylvania lee apparently is desperate enough

to try to lead an infantry counter-attack to plug this gap in his line several thousand of his troops had been captured. a division commander been captured confederate division community captured many confederate guns and battle flags have been captured. and we in desperation is about to lead an infantry assault. when the men forced him to go to the rear not the texas brigade this time, but in other units forcedly to go through the rear. in the end the confederates were just barely able actually after 24 hours of close range fighting by various units. the confederates were able to hold their line there. and avoid disaster, but if you're keeping square at home, i think this is maybe the third time at least that it came very close to being an early grant victory that would pretty much

fulfill those unrealistic expectations, but but didn't happen. after the unsuccessful attack the almost but not quite successful attack. it's spotsylvania grant again goes around. lee's flank again hits him and slides off now. again result of the battle. we don't do it by counting bodies on the battlefield, you know, famously the united states and the earlier is the vietnam war tried to gauge how well it was doing us forces tried to gauge how much they were doing by counting bodies the body counts not the way to do it and we're not going to do body counts here casualties were about proportional to the size of the true the forces engaged. grant goes down here. he's shooting for hanover junction. where the virginia central railroad crosses over the richmond in fredericksburg grand is already he started with the virginia central railroad as his supply line. he's picked up the richmond in fredericksburg. lee blocks in it hanover

junction. we takes a very good position lee is a very good general and i don't know if you can see that little upside down red v right there. that's the position that lee takes in order to get at that position grants troops will have to cross on either side cross the north anna river on either side of the apex of lee's v. and by doing that they'll be much separated from each other. so lee has essentially put a wedge into the union army. it's got a lot of potential but lee can't follow up on it because lee's army is getting worn out lee is getting worn out. he's suffering from heart disease and he may have had a heart attack in late 63. he's not in the greatest of health by this time. he's on his back in a cot in a tent and he's trying to command the army from there. his top subordinates have been went out to his his best support his first core commander james

longstreet badly wounded in a friendly fire incident at wilderness his second core commander you will becomes basically a psychological casualty after spotsylvania. by the time they get to north anna his third core commander ambrose p hill has succumbed to bad health. stress i think probably added to it so. all of these three the three cores of leaves army are being commanded by division commanders who have moved up to that position within the last few weeks. they don't have a lot of experience. we can't go out and provide that experience for them personally by riding around on horseback as he did say in the seven days battles. he's on his back. he can't make anything happen out of this grant pulls back. and oh, yeah, here's a shot of the north anna river and a union pontoon bridge across it. that's actually a photograph taken at the time.

so anyway, that's a more zoomed in picture. there's the confederate fee on the north anna again grant slides around them as lee land is tent on his --. he said we cannot let those people go around us again, or we can't let those people pass us again. but they did he can't stop them grant is going around him again. and again, i don't know we just say like a running back that. i used to love the way we're all through payton, you know, he's hall of famer, you know, he'd get back to read hit a defensive back. he'd slide off and go on and hits another defensive back slide off and me go on grant is grand is having things his way up. the wilderness was 65 miles from richmond spotsylvania about 55 miles the north end. it was 25 miles from richmond and when grant gets down here where the line they're gonna face up against each other again and a place called cold harbor not because it was cold or a harbor but because there was an inn where you could only get cold meals. they're going to be 10 miles from richmond.

so grant is making progress here. as they again advance in a side long way that way. they get down here. cold harbor quickly because we d't know how much time i best known for an unsuccessful attack on may 3rd. the attack did not result in 7,000 union casualties in 45 minutes more like maybe 1,500. grant again struggles with getting mead and meed subordinates to attack in the ways. he wants when he wants in a coordinated manner and then another thing that grant tries to communicate in his orders and you read this again in again is and if you see that the confederates have a strong position and if you see we're not going to break through right away. stop the attack. do not keep doubling down on a failed attack. unfortunately the generals of the army of the potomac tend to

double down on failed attacks. they're not as fast in getting their attacks going as grant once. but when they do get going they don't want to stop even though they're failing. so that ran casualty lists up but the two armies remained in contact at cold harbor. beyond june 3rd when the unfortunate attack happened all the way up to the 12th and in some of the movements and attacks that happened afterwards grant actually did better than lee and then final move of this overly in campaign was maybe the most brilliant of the side moves the grant makes? he really fakes lee out. and he takes his army down and across the james river. and they moves on petersburg. and that was another one of those moves that should have by rights of given grant what he

was seeking. unfortunately fatigued bad decisions by generals various factors led and i got to say a heroic confederate defense of petersburg, which is just off the map there. led to that of the failure to take petersburg but at that point it becomes really a quasiase of confederate positions around richmond and petersburg with grant on the outside of that line constantly drawing driving to cut additional railroads. and as robert e lee had said about actually when the armies were up here. lee said we've got to stop grant before he gets to the james river. there's the james river. grant said if he gets to the james river, it's going to be a siege and then it will only be a matter of time. and from the time grant got to the james river. in mid-june of 18 for it was a matter of time for the confederacy although a lot more

time than union voters would have wished. okay, we are out of time. so thank you for your attention and i'll see y'all on wednesday.

the private world of the presidential retreat. >> hello welcome to another episode of history live. i'm doctor colleen i'm a senior vice president at the white house historical association and the director of the david science center for white house history. the white house historical association is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization with a mission to educate americans about that rich and diverse history of the white house and the people who live and work there. our guest this evening is michael he is a retired rear admiral from the navy civil engineer corps. he served in a variety of assignments around the world and is 29 year military career.

including as commander of camp david. after retirement thousand ten, michael jordan private industry is a chief executive officer of the building information technology company headquartered in his hometown of pittsburgh, pennsylvania. in october 2017, he published his first book inside camp david the private world of the presidential retreat. mike travels often speaking about the book has been covered by the wall street journal, the today show c-span and many other print radio television outlets. after our conversation, mike will be taking questions from our live audience. please be your questions for mike and the chat we will get to as many as possible welcome to white house history live mike. >> wonderful to be here. it's an honor to serve the

nation. [inaudible] >> only start from the beginning, your story with camp david. tell us about how you were selected as commander of camp david, what that process was likely. >> camp david is actually a navy command naval support facility and a town nearby. the navy has operated and maintained it since it was started in 1942 by president roosevelt. civil engineer corps officer with history. 1998 is put on a short list for possible officers to be considered, how the interview with president clinton, went through a visit to the camp about a week later i got the call.

>> visited once as an assignment officer left the visit that day the next assignments. that cut a really difficult place to work it will be weird to work there someday. put it away, went on for the next few tours and lo and behold i was shortlisted was selected reported in june of 1999 and the end of president clinton's second term bird. >> let's talk a little bit about the history of camp david. the history begins later talk

about that. >> let's go back to 1942 roosevelt loved with a three presidential's in his times in the potomac. new book on the right is oakland california today. secure as hobbies it's a place to go get away from the white house helicopter squadron existed, that got to find somewhere drivable nearby.

interestingly because of the new deal, bring us out of depression and part of the work projects are the progress administration on the conservation corps put money back into the country i rebuilt a lot of the roads and parks. you place in maryland, also known as camp number three. rose was given three sites nearby to visit. he went to all three when he came to camp number three he looked at it and said this is it. and here's the first and this is my shangri-la. joe roosevelt amended chandra law applying a utopian mysterious place of the mountain. he had that whimsical nature about naming things bridget that's what its name. as mail president eisenhower renamed after his grandson, camp david. that is how we know it today.

>> you describe kempton for a lot of our viewers and listeners who i'm sure have never visited camp david in person. i'm probably will not visit camp david. when you paint a picture of what the camp is like? >> i will try. great partners of ours 1800 feet elevation, on the spring and summer months. a leafy canopy perfectly manicured yards, the road meanders to the camp. in these cabins we presidential walk-through all the cabins have this oak plank siding with the certain shade of green paint. all the roofs are cedar shake shingles. these very rustic, very leafy, very fresh. but at night i find it particularly surreal

definitely quiet, no white except pathway light. no noise except for a squirrel in the tree no lights, no noises from below eerily quiet peaceful. inside the campus is called cedar just from the corner from aspen and the president's logic. >> how many cabins are in camp david, how big is the site? >> there are about four guest cabins president eisenhower started that called the presidential watch eisenhower when he renamed it camp david named all of the trees, all named after trees coat 12 for entertainment 20 total that include the fire department,

the ash, clinic, eucalyptus, popular, the cycle of drought the staff at camp david pretty were the commander. was assize the military staff at camp david? what kind of job do they perform? >> over 200 sailors and marines, officers maintain their maintenance. officer supply corn to marine officers in washington d.c. also put all of the sailors and rings together just over 200 staff. there's also white house communication detachment there in charge of communications that is a joint command coming out of the main command. >> q tells a little bit about how camp david is changed over

the years? it was very rustic is been some notable additions to the complex. mention there is a chaplin so there is a chapel at camp david. that also about the activities and how that complex is changed over time. >> >> to fdr again apparently it's why the navy has it. he took the sealers of the uss potomac of not had a job and took them with him to camp david brought them for security. they went there during the non- winter months. truman, not a favorite of camp david prefer to go to key west. had the trees pushed back on during eisenhower's time it was winterized and installed the other cabins. they still maintain that, over the years use of a family cabins have been added president nixon during his

time but a lot of expansion into the camp, putting in the hourglass shape pool adding laurel which is the main entertaining cabinet you see sometimes on news report and coverage of world leaders and visiting number of other features throughout. to modernize the time they challenge the president to modernize the cabin and expanded that's been going on last for five years but a very sequential smart way to keep current but maintain the rustic nature outside. and the amenities on the inside part is not a marble, brass a four star resort is not meant to be. it is a rustic, comfortable place to get away, to think, to walk in privacy and silence. and recreate on your own or meet with other world leaders. the most unique thing the bottom right of this photo of the evergreen chapel donated

to private money, with camp david commissioned in 1994 during president george h.w. bush. >> how do presidents get to camp david customer could talk about fdr within driving distance. but present to circle do not drive to camp david in a morbid. >> we prefer to bring them end by the helicopter squadron eisenhower was the first to come in like that. and weather permitting they will fly in the talk marine one. they'll come up by motorcade from where ever their departure platform is. >> camp david is a presidential retreat. yet you know presidents often find themselves working in camp david. tell us a little bit how it functions as the white house? >> thank you. i think most people recognize no matter who is the

president, there can be a lot of critiques about what you do when you're off duty for how you do your job. but the fact is you are always on duty. and you need time off, we all need time off. in addition to a second home some of us have been some do not, camp david provides that peaceful getaway for family, friends, and if needed for staff and for world leaders. it's a great the presidents going to get away most of the time as a couple to get away, to recreate but also i'm sure to think about things every is a little different. to me the outsider think the best val is a personal respite for your family and friends. then you find it's a great place to bring world leaders to to talk privately. there is no press unless you invite the press and pray there is no press, there are

no protesters, there is no traffic, no plane flying overhead serenely, private and peaceful. >> how do people get around? >> it's golf carts everyone is assigned a golf cart program golf cart one. so golf cart one, golf carts for all of the gas, bicycles are available for pedestrians. we have cross-country trails through the woods in the winter months if you want to do that. snowmobiling saw the president president ford and his family. principally golf carts to get around or walk. >> just a reminder to everyone we are going to be taking questions at the end of our conversation. if you do have questions for mike about camp david comments history, what it's like please put them in the chat will get to as many as possible. stock a little bit about the history of camp david the historic events that have taken place for camp david.

can you talk about some of these episodes for them and why presidents might choose camp david for the setting of these historic occurrences? >> i will mention four events and then i will focus on the fifth one in particular. we have seen photos from the nearby stream. but the point of the bottom left of them talking about how, roosevelt on the top left inside aspen the stone hearth fireplace is still there for there is a wagon wheel the roosevelt table is still there. president truman, i only went ten times in his tenure he preferred key west. the presidents come that that's the first time with fdr and churchill. president carter made it famous for most people 1978 with the peace accords with

sadat and israel. during my time 2000 president clinton brought arafat and the prime minister of israel to camp to try to represent a similar thing for president 12 president obama hosted the conference at camp david. the single time the most world leaders have been in camp at any one time. the incident want to go back to his 1961. april 1961. president kennedy inaugurated in january succeeding president eisenhower. bad things are being planned by the scenes with the cia, u.s. government and others passed off to the administration you see the photo of the top right of pulitzer prize winning photo called serious steps. what's interesting about this i think from a human and political point is that president kennedy inherited the operation.

it was launched, and did not go well hence the name. riches across the political and personal i'll and invites president eisenhower to come to camp david and help them understand how to get to this how do i fix this mess, what do i do? it's a very poignant and significant moment i think part of the new upstart democrat inviting the old guard five-star general to talk about what to do. i think it's a very humble may be possibly desperate measure. very humble way to recognize leadership and what passes between administrations and talk about what to do best for the country. >> you mentioned this already, mike, who talk about this in your book. some presidents and first ladies visit camp david or frequently than others. if you talk a little bit about the differences in how the presidents and first families

use camp david and explain why think that is? >> one, i think it depends on children. what are the ages of the presidents children. i think that dictates are they going to leave their intramural leagues, back in d.c., are they hosting their friends, of the running out of the house, too, some have second homes and go there for they could do both. three, some like the quiet nature. president clinton really went to camp david his first term but did a lot more second term. over two terms is on the value. some prefer just to go somewhere else. prefer to entertain elsewhere. you have seen a mix over 80 some years of how they use it. >> host: can you share this one or two of your most favorite memories from your time camp david?

>> are certainly the historic moments most people recognize the middle east peace summit, work with the state department to welcome president clinton meeting yasser arafat and having a photo shaking his hand, watching from the sidelines as president clinton spent two weeks trying to forge the peace agreement. watching president bush welcoming the blairs to couples getting to know each other much like as you would moved with their neighbors as you move into a neighborhood. there very poignant things to watch on the sideline for even you get to serve there, see things, you have to remember you are in the role you get to know some personal things about the families but you are not of their world you have to maintain that corm. i will tilt two stories that are a more personal nature. i think it helps to relate to the families. the first one is the final

clinton weekend four days nonstop, hundreds of guests coming through, dinners, musicians performing in the chapel, just a wonderful event we said goodbye with the hanger that night with the family some walking to the helicopter at 10:00 o'clock on that sunday at the snow on the ground, thanking them for leading our country and walking them down to marina one, might for last time to see you then. when gerald student stanford turns to me and hands me too stuffed animals. when jesus commanded i've had these in my bed and for eight years in aspen for please give them to your daughter breonna and ryan and think your wife michelle for everything you've done. just a touching unexpected moment of course a very human approach. great keepsakes now for the two girls. that was the first whimpered as the final time as to the clintons of 2001, the second was a humorous story from the

book about goldfish. and the commander of the camp, the factor responsible for security, we have to run errands to do official things for us during the middle east peace some of the first week, michelle and taken to the city fair, common thing to do here at camp david in the summer. she's coming back to the gate with the two girls the backseat they each had one a goldfish. there goldfish in a plastic bag are each holding. we have a strict policy at the time no animals at camp david, no pets. the marine corps guard, who knows us we know all the marines, they know us. everyone is doing their job reese's ma'am you cannot bring pets into the camp. she looks at him with a bit of an incredulous look. the girls are hearing this and steers tears start to come down there i paired she was looking at them he's looking

at her, she's looking back at him he's doing his job mom is doing her job, michelle is into the window and says they are for dinner. i'm kind of winks. yes man please proceed. most little funny moments like that there are still people there. we have these times, we all live with rules and regulations but sometimes you see the human side and work through it. that's her favorite store because moms and dads get it. thank you. >> the final chapter in your book is called the true meaning of camp david. can you tell us what is the true meaning? and is it different for every president and first hamlet spends time there? >> is definitely different as we described different families use a brief president george w. bush love going to camp david like his dad. basement every christmas there. for some at the time for family to come together for special holidays.

during my time, the clintons loved camp david for thanksgiving. again every president is done it differently. president reagan nancy reagan love their almost by themselves. he did always radio addresses from the cabin and elsewhere. they all used it differently. the meaning comes from has a theme of a camp david kind of place for the spirit of camp david one by one the soviet premieres at the time was about a place you come together with trust, within nature, no press unless you want them there, the ability to sit down as people, break bread, share a story, get to know each other. to me that the true meaning of camp david a place of the presidents to get away and relax the best they can. a place to entertain family

and world leaders probably one of the most unique places in the world to do that. growth and reasonable distance of the white house. >> michael had some really great questions from our live audience. nancy from facebook asked i know president reagan and nancy reagan rode horses while they were at camp david. is there a stable there? what other activities are available besides swimming? >> the only time we had a stable there, a corral's during the kennedy years the pony macaroni was kept there for the children, the kennedys. otherwise horseback, had one incident where president clinton and chelsea wanted to go horseback riding. so the national park service from d.c. brought the horses up we use the back gate into the wilderness with secret service on horseback to to go to the nearby woods. horseback riding is possible but there is no corral for their skeet shooting, trap shooting, mini golf course, a

driving range, snowmobiling, cross-country skiing, presidents want to go golfing to go back to the nearby golf course. if they want to fish this nearby fishing hold on private farmland so we arranged to take them. there is a bowling alley game room, rex david asks, never approach the perimeter of camp david? >> it happens and there are some warning times. you could drive by the roads in camp, three do have protocols if you do happen to approach the fence and get closer things to deal with. again it's a no-fly zone i'm sure that happens and continues to happen. >> didn't fdr, didn't he make

a wrong turn when he was driving once to try to get to shangri-la and didn't come across a neighbor who is not too happy to see him? >> yes it has happened. when we did not drive around as much as we do today and we were not always surrounded by agents there's been those humorous events you knock on the door and the yelled who are you. what's the long essay president has stayed there, wasn't carded there for a week or more during the middle east peace talks? >> yes. there is a time almost two weeks for the peace talks president carter also went there during the 1979, he came back and gave that talk about the condition of the country,

what was going on we had the hostages taken, all of this was going on. he supported himself almost two weeks working there during that difficult time in his presidency. typically presidents go for a weekend, up friday back sunday night too. >> jeff asks a good question, how did eisenhower get naming rights to name camp david, camp david for it was there an executive order? was it legislation or did he have someone go out with lumber and paint and redo the sign? >> i like the second explanation best but i do not know. i imagine that henry something signed to change the name from the shangri-la to camp david. will have to check the archives together. >> karen asks, when a president chooses not to visit camp david very often, how does that change staffing and operations?

>> staffing and operations do not change. you are always ready or your mission is always to be ready to receive. some let camp david be used by desperate president carter visited with his whole family during president clinton's term was a former president visiting. some presidents have allowed staff to use it. but if no one is there you are just maintaining the place and taking care of it. that can be a morale issue. i had a gap of five months with president clinton. a lot of time not to do your job per se you get a little rusty sifter practice at times but some weekends the presidents are always on a big comes and operations tempo you would say. >> that is the question that gaudi had, what happens at camp david when the president is a way? what do you do as a staff? >> we have more time to do training, physical nest programs, contest if time allows it.

we send our sailors and marines to school you always have to be ready. you are really sitting waiting taking care of the place, mowing the grass, training, firefighting training is constant. certainly because you're always ready your way to execute when the president does visit we look forward to those visits. >> has hollywood or the news media for a documentary ever films on site at camp david? >> harry reasoner with abc news interviewed president ford inside the camp. i believe that was the only time there's an interview done in that regard, certainly during world events like middle east peace summit the press was there in a secluded area to film. the principals coming in and then they were escorted out on the bus.

there have been hollywood guests over the years and musical guests and sports guests. no real filming, documentary done on camp david other than on the archives and as it any presidential films from the libraries. >> peter asked, what is the reason for the no pets rule at camp david? >> who is a self grown and today the are allowed to have a pet. it depends what happened in history. with the french poodle in the camp commander's dog. it is a humorous time which is why this it changes at times. today we are a little more reasonable i would say with the pet rule. kathie asks you mention the library paid what kind of books are in the library and it does it depend upon the administration, to the books change depending upon the president or the first lady? >> we keep some archives in an

open public library near the game room. more of the history, that is where the white house christmas cards, there cap the president sends out we frame those, put them in the movie theater in the library. in the cabin holly which is where carter chose to meet with sadat because it is a smaller nature, i like that room because that library is close to the presidential papers. too there's copies of the presidential papers published in other historical novels about the military services. that is what we mean when we refer to the two libraries. one for public use, one with a history of camp david. the second is the presidential papers. : : :

works to make it harder possible and how to do the air-conditioning and all the things they did in their own home and he talks about the transition through kennedy reacting to the assassination and the shaded administration and president johnson and his family. >> grant asks has president biden visited camp david, do you know? >> he has been there a time so far. he goes on to delaware and he's been decamp david eight times as president it has been there many times as vice president. >> has camp david ever been damaged by bad weather? >> yours a mic or burst on the

hill and there's when those will knockout trees in the state park in a national park but fortunately nothing serious is it the area. >> vivian asked a good question. has there ever been a wedding at camp david? >> one wedding one of the bush daughters was married in the chapel. >> salt from facebook asks what was the biggest surprise you ever had while working at camp david? >> the day the sprinklers went off when president clinton was chipping golfballs. the sprinklers go off and i was watching nearby. the sprinklers went off again and he threw his clubs and to the golf course and went to the driving range and it's humorous but you have to understand the

frustration of someone dealing with that. i tried to make light of it that night when he left camp david. it was a poor attempt at humor into you when -- you learn a balance of when to be serious but not too serious and went to be humorous. fortunately i had no serious incidents during my time. i left the month before 9/11 occurred and we spent a lot of time describing that the light moments during my time there. >> how much heads up do you get to know when a president is coming? >> it depends on the president. the change of command day at 10:00 a.m. my predecessor didn't know at all the a.m. ceremony and we get word the president is coming that night.

so a fascinating factor to realize you are about to inherit the camp then you know nothing about what goes on and you get briefing that you are the new ceo and you are driving a car. i signed on to be -- because it taught me just to sit back and let them do their job and all i have to do is get dressed walk walked down there introduce myself and shake hands and that's all i did that or stay but i learned a lot about my crew and i said let people do their job trained them have their backs to support them but let them do their job. the bush administration very descriptive and you always knew well ahead of time. again it depends on the person. >> can the vice president and his or her family go there as well? >> if the president allows it.

it has happened in curse -- history and not a lot but occasionally. some go away for leadership retreats. president obama did that a lot with this staff members so the commanders and in the chapel and they welcome people may do what they are there to do. so it varies. >> if you know this teen on how the pandemic has affected to camp david or the new procedures in place? >> very observant of mask rules and vaccinations. again this is telling of the trump administration in the beginning of the biden administration but everyone is observer in the following the rules. whether by the white house or the navy commissions so a very appropriate response.

a lot of outside guess calm but no world leaders have been there in five years. but i think that will open up and i hope it will. >> i think i know the answer to this question but i will ask it anyways did camp devon ever -- camp david open its doors and has the average person gone to camp david? >> it's not open and there's a fake web site out there that advertises it. don't believe that. not true. the other way to get decamp is on a nonpresidential visit weekend so either know someone who works there if allowed or know the president and be invited by the president. >> what is the food like it camp david? good question. >> we run a galley operation for sailors and marines and there is

the lounge on the bar but for visits we work with the first families and social secretaries and the first lady to work the menu. we have well-trained culinary specialist who work with the chef for the navy master prepare the meals. for world leaders we sometimes work with the state department especially for kosher meals during the yasir arafat visit they were brought from d.c. to provide meals for all guests so we accommodate the guests but they today we have a galley that serves a crew that works there. >> jackie is watching on youtube asks what is something you think every american should know about camp david? >> it's a place called shangri-la navy command just like the marine command in air

force one etc. and it was first established in 1942 by president roosevelt. >> macias was the highest rank of someone from the marines are the navy at camp david? >> the camp commander is the u.s. navy commander. sometimes that officer might the selected as captain if he or she is departing the camp but it's a job for the commander. the senior captain of the marine corps and for the white house communication detail that's their navy lieutenant colonel of the u.s. army. >> the last question this evening several viewers have asked this. why did you decide to write the book on camp david and what was one or two things that were fascinated that you learned while you were researching for the book?

>> thank you. on the day of command there's a photo of my wife and two daughters ages seven and four and my wife michelle and she hands me this journal and the oeste thing in the journal are scrawled notes from my two daughters saying dear daddy please write stories about the president's. i had never thought of it so after every visit weekend or event i would sit down and write down what happened. i did it after the clinton administration and the inauguration and i put that away in my desk. i never thought i could write a book. over the reunion weekend a lot of the former training officers were there and they were all meeting each other some for the

first time and some had known each other for years and i here heard many of them talking about how to capture some of the history and they have learned later many had their own story. i first realized i could write the book as far security so it was possible. i did want to write anything that was unattractive to any president and a new i could read 15 stories of other commanding officers from kennedy forward and that would bring the history of a lot of the camp together and the ceos you will see their stories and their photos. and i would use it that way to tell a historical narrative of some of the personal insights. some people wanted third in stories but that wasn't the purpose or wanted to show respect and to tell the story.

a little bit about the inside workings and how the military supports the president 24/7. >> thank you so much. this has been a really comprehensive conversation aboue

anytime at c-span.org/history. let me tell you about our speaker this evening. dr. alan pietro ban is an assistant professor of global affairs at trinity washington university since 2011. he has also served as an assistant director of research at the nuclear nuclear studies institute and his primary research and teaching areas are modern us history in us foreign policy focusing on nuclear weapons policies and cold war diplomacy. but he also believes in making education more accessible to people outside of universities. so he works to give public presentations on wide ranging topics like the cultural impact of road trips throughout american history. they rise of the american suburbs the gilded age the role

prohibition played in shaping the 1920s the history of food and dining in the us or like this one had the 1939 world's fair in vision the future. now alan will also be back with us on january 11th to discuss kennedy nixon in the debate of the century. we hope you will consider joining us. now we're so excited to have alan with us this. things without any further ado. please join me in welcoming alan pietro bun. thank you for that generous introduction heather. i am dr. alan pietro bond a professor of global affairs and modern american history at trinity washington university here in dc and i want to start tonight. by giving you a number 1939 it's one of those years that stands out in history. for those who know their history, it's a year that evokes

a reaction much like 1776 with the american revolution or perhaps 1989 with the fall of the berlin wall or 9/11. there are just some dates that just sear themselves into the historical memory. and 1939 holds special significance because it's the year world war two begins. hitler's armies role in the poland sparking a global war that would go on for nearly six years and result and upwards of 85 million people killed. that starts september 1st. 1939 and much much less remembered is the fact that that exact same day. the united states president franklin roosevelt extended a

formal invitation for all european nations. to return to the united states in 1940 to continue celebrating the next season of the ongoing new york world's fair. his invitation said quote the continuing hope of the nation's must be that they will increasingly understand each other. and the new york world's fair is one of the many channels by which this continuing conception of peace may be known. end quote and yet on that same september day that the war broke out the ongoing new york world's fair saw record attendance numbers. it had sort of become a de facto gathering ground for those who wished for comfort or solace. or maybe just those who wanted to revisit the world as it existed just the previous day.

a world not plunged into a catastrophic war. a world of hope for the future the following day on september 2nd the new york times headlines said that europe's turmoil was reflected at the fair. they wrote quote. with bombs bursting over poland yesterday the impact of general war that seemed to threaten europe finally broke with full force at the world's fair. which such a short time ago was dedicated with brave speeches of international peace and goodwill. end quote the 1939 world's fair was supposed to be a celebration of mankind's progress a glorious vision of the future literally called the world of tomorrow. and so with that by means of a

teaser what i want to explore in tonight's presentation is exactly that how did this fair full of such promise? collapse into the fires of world war two and what vision of the future did it present? how far off were we? so for about the next hour or so, i'm going to explore this fascinating moment in history, and then there'll be plenty of time at the end for some q&a so you can feel free to enter it into the question in box throughout or hang on to it for the end. and i want to begin by looking not just at the world's fair and the vision for the future that it presented but really the fact that there was an enormous amount riding on this single event. and event, that would be marred by the outbreak of war. so, let me set the scene and give first the general overview and then we're gonna come back through and fill in some of the

gaps expand expand our context a little bit. because our story sees us. on october or rather april thought october april 30th, 1939 a muggy sunday afternoon. when the new york world's fair had its grand opening with over 200,000 people in attendance. it wasn't especially exciting moment because franklin roosevelt the president of the united states was going to be there there to officially open the fair. i'll show you a newsreel from that moment. america's world of tomorrow is ready for its formal debut the mighty exhibition, which is a monument to imagination showmanship and industry. to see the exhibits of 58 nations crowds pour in from subways trains buses and cars half a million strong and for 40,000 invited guests. the moment has come.

right speaks in the court of peace i hear my dedicate. the world's fair the new york world's fair of 1939 and i declare it. open to all mankind. should have mentioned before it started. it's an old video clip and depending on your speed of your internet connection. it might the video might be a bit choppy, but the audio should come through fine. but right from that very moment. this fair was already opening a window on the future the world of tomorrow because roosevelt's speech was broadcast on a brand new invention that was being debuted for the first time at the fair. television roosevelt's speech

launched the very first scheduled television broadcast tv station in america. nbc that first broadcast station breathlessly proclaimed the president's address was being beamed from a transmitter at the very top of the empire state building the signal which could reach for a whole 25 miles. now in reality only about a thousand people we think tuned in because there were only about 200 tvs in existence in new york at that time mainly because this is what a television look like at the time. five inch screens smaller than some of your cell phones today. it wasn't even technically black and white. it was actually a weird greenish hue. and if you the regular person wanted to buy themselves a television it cost today's

equivalent of about $4,000. for that wooden box but this was an incredible thing that we now know in hindsight would really go on to introduce the world of tomorrow. but the irony here and the one that would continuously haunt the entire world's fair. was the fact that while this may have been the first broadcast in america. it was nazi germany that beat us to it. by three years the first live television broadcast was the opening of the or the opening ceremony of the 1936 olympics in berlin where hitler featured prominently. it has a interesting thought experiment inside note the astrophysicist carl sagan once considered that since this was the first mass tv broadcast sent

out on radio waves that might mean that perhaps the first message that aliens encounter the first transmission from earth would be a picture of hitler. but back to roosevelt's speech. as exciting as this moment was there were some storm clouds gathering. a reporter asked a fair representative wouldn't a european war completely ruined the fair. and the representative responded there will be no war that's all newspaper. talk europe is excited about this fair. in fact, it's all they're talking about not about some war. well not everyone would have agreed with that statement. the fair was open to all countries. each country was invited to attend and build a pavilion to

exhibit their culture their their products their industries and hitler's germany had signed a contract to build the pavilion in new york city. and there was a lot of consternation at the time in america about whether to let nazi germany even attend. two years earlier at an exposition in paris. the nazis had also been invited and they built a giant and imposing building with a swastikas all over. and this was meant to be a bold display of nazi. germany's reimagined role within the global community. what they were projecting was that hitler's totalitarian form of rule was good and not just not just good. but it was the way of the future. that democracies were old and fading they were a thing of the past that national socialism, right?

nazism was a new political project to be taken seriously to be respected and even to be admired was the image they wanted to project. in fact, the organizers in paris had put the nazi building on the left of this image and the building for the soviet union on the right directly facing off against each other. and germany leaned into this idea that national socialism was a welcome bulwark against the evils of communism. and so right away this illustrates one of the major clashes of 1939 the major fears that overshadowed not just the fair. but overshadowed that moment in american life the idea that was real at the time that maybe we in america were about to be

overtaken by these two countries that offered alternative and more modern political systems. and to understand the reason why this was a fear. let me go back for a moment to put this fair in the context of its time which of course was in the midst of the great depression. by the time the fair opened in 1939 the united states had been through 10 years of economic calamity a 27% unemployment rate at time. this is a time in american life when both family most families did without. without extra food without an extra pair of shoes without going to the dentist. a time before there was modern medicine or penicillin which meant that a child or an adult for that matter could die of a sore throat or a simple cut that got infected. this was the time when most

roads in the nation were made of dirt. not even gravel, like literally just a dirt that turned completely to mud when it rained. in 1939 fewer than 25% of people living in rural areas had electricity. and that should astonish you this is 50 years after electricity is commercialized and still only 25% of people in rural areas in america have it. and this is a time when the national emergency council reported that much of the southern united states was and i'm quoting from the report. a belt of sickness misery and unnecessary death from syphilis hookworm malnutrition typhoid fever and malaria end quote the us south was so underdeveloped that it's more akin to what we'd

probably recognize today is a third world country malaria typhoid fever malnutrition. and so there was a growing understanding among the american population that as the great depression dragged on and on and on for a decade. that seemed to indicate that seemed to prove. that capitalism as an economic system was a failure. and worse overlaying that was the democracy as a governing system also had failed. it seemed unable to remedy the problem. democracy was old slow creaky subject to the whims of the masses on one hand and on the other hand held hostage by bickering politicians all trying to pursue their own political interests. democracy was obsolete. and in contrast a bold and most

importantly new political system had arisen starting in europe in the 1920s the system of fascism. it originates in italy and then it spreads to germany and the fastest fascist ideology argues that liberal democracies are doomed their past that only a one-party state led by a strong leader in charge of a martial law government that could tightly control the population that only that government could respond effectively to economic problems and forge the positive national unity required to maintain a stable and prosperous and orderly society. the problem was that approach seemed to be working in the 1930s. fascist italy and germany seem to be doing well thriving even

in 1935 the german autobahn was opened a full 20 years before the us interstate system was even inaugurated. in 1936 the german economy in the midst of the global great depression. germany was roaring at full employment. and so there were many in the united states throughout the 1930s including members of the united states government who pointed to nazi germany and thought that perhaps the way out of the great depression was for america to be more like germany. but it's even worse than that. that maybe fascism with its strict control of society wasn't quite your cup of tea. well, that's okay because there's yet another new alternative to democracy. communism in the 1930s the soviet economy was also booming

was rapidly industrializing so much so that there were russian recruiters working in the united states to recruit out of work americans to move to russia to work where there were more jobs than there were people and tens of thousands of americans did move to russia in the 1930s in search of a better jobs a better way of life than what they at least thought they had in america which what america offered at the time was a huge number of shanty towns that had populated the outskirts of almost every major american city. now to be clear the early 1930s. this was largely before we had learned about the atrocities of the soviet union and to a lesser extent of nazi germany. these were seen as largely respectable prosperous european nations. and so in 1939 american style capitalism and democracy was

under challenge and no one quite knew how things were turned out. maybe the fascists were right that just like democracy had superseded monarchy, maybe fascism and communism were the next logical steps in human political development that they had solved the problems of politics. so to say that most americans had experienced these years as a constant stream of obstacles and struggles and and existential fear would have been about right. to some nazi germany was the positive model of the future. but to others in fact to most they were up in arms in america about allowing a repressive freedom restricting german state to participate in this fair, which was focused on freedom and the future for one the mayor of new york city fiorella laguardia

never missed an opportunity opportunity to heckle hitler claiming that if germany was allowed to attend then the fair also had to contain a building that he called the chamber of horrors. he said quote. containing a figure of that brown shirted fanatic who is now menacing the peace of the world end quote. the nation magazine said no swastikas at the world's fair. ultimately despite these clashes it would come to not because the germans would withdraw on their own from the fair at the last minute. partly, i mean they claimed it was because of the foreign exchange problem. they didn't have enough money, but it was really as a protest and a front to what they saw as insults against their nation. so many were happy germany withdrew. but perhaps they're absence from

a peaceful gathering of nations. maybe they're absence should have been ominous in and of itself. down the road from where the nazi pavilion was meant to have been constructed was the pavilion of the independent nation of poland. except we now know when hindsight that just five months after the fair opened the nazis would invade and overtake poland. by the end of the world's fair which runs to the end of 1940. the polish pavilion was draped in black because the country technically no longer existed. it's exhibits were partly sold off by the exiled government to help pay the bills. the soviet union that other italian state also a relatively new country at the time. it was only officially recognized by the united states in 1933. just a handful of years earlier. but the soviets were granted a

prime location at the fair and they built a massive pavilion. the soviets 2. we're using the fair to project a positive image of communism. their official statement read quote the soviet union is a country which has ended the exploitation of men by men. eliminated racial and national animosities and in which 170 million people of different nationalities are united in an equal freedom. end quote if i had told you that was the soviet union you might think that's the united states using that kind of language. except five months later this soviets would join with the nazis to invade and destroy poland. italy had a major pavilion. italy also a fascist government at the time. in fact, it was italy that

essentially invents modern fascism with the italian leader mussolini predating hitler by about 10 years. and i think you might be getting the theme here. five months later mussolini sides with hitler japan japan's pavilion was modeled to look like a shinto shrine, which was a religious belief in japan that many americans thought encouraged an aggressive and militaristic culture. japan had already been at war with china for eight years and had just two years earlier in 1937 committed an atrocity in manking where japanese soldiers murdered 300,000 civilians. but in new york their dedication at the fair read quote. dedicated to eternal peace and

friendship between america and japan. end quote except americans should probably already have been suspicious about eternal peace and friendship between their nation and japan because on the grand opening day the us navy fleet was supposed to visit new york city as part of the ceremony. but because of aggressive moves being made by japan in the south china sea, the fleet visit was canceled and the us navy was instead deployed to the pacific as a show of force against japan. you get the point? one year later the japanese would launch a massive surprise attack against the united states at pearl harbor. eternal peace and friendship they said so my goodness if the 1939 world's fair was supposed to be this world of tomorrow

this bright vision of the future. yikes, right we couldn't have been more dead wrong. world war two would break out five months into the fair and americans would be dragged into the war just about a year after that in what became the most deadly war humanitarian humanity had ever seen. this moment of hope had turned into a moment of crisis. which was truly terrible because the world's fair was supposed to transcend that. and that's why april 1939 was so exciting. because the world's fair was designed to leave the current doldrums behind and look to an inspiring new future that the decade of the terrible 1930s the the dirty thirties as it were we're about to end and a better future in the decade of the

1940s would unfold. the idea that the 1940s would be a dawn of a new era of peace and freedom. printed right there on the ticket stub and the designers of this 1939 world's fair truly tried to project a positive view of the future. a view of the future that was so far in the future that the westinghouse company even buried a time capsule. fact is it fun bar? trivia the very word time capsule was coined for this event. in fact, they buried two time capsules because they wanted some redundancy since these time capsules weren't set to be opened until the year 6,939. not to be opened for five thousand years. that's how long americans thought this nation would last.

that's how far in the future they were looking which if you ask me is a severe case of hubris because even the roman empire the most powerful and longest lasting empire in the history of the world lasted about a thousand years. and looking forward as a side note the area where this time capsule was buried is only about seven feet above sea level. so the projection is and then not too distant future. this will be underwater due to climate change. but they didn't know that back then and this time capsule was meant to preserve a record of life in 1938. so they put in it what they said were 124 commonly used items. items like tooth powder they had a mazda lamp basically a light bulb, although today. we kind of call these things edison lights the old timey time lights. they had copies of life

magazine. they had a mickey mouse watch they had a gillette safety razor, which was a new technology not having to use a straight razor and slit your neck with it. they had a kewpie doll. and i'll admit i had to look up what a qp doll was. it's this creepy thing, but it was the hottest children's story of the era. they had a dollar and spare change. they had an asbestos shingle because why not and of course they had the coolest thing of all. cigarettes give your throat a vacation says this doctor. but they also included a letter. from the famed scientist albert einstein who was appointed to be the science advisor for the ferry, he was alive at this time and he explained in the letter he put in his time capsule that in the time in which he lived

his society had and i quote learned to fly and we are able to send messages and news without any difficulty over the entire world through electronic waves and quote. what he's talking about? is the radio which was the technology that was relatively new at the time. in fact, one of the brand new technologies that was debuted at the fair was a facsimile machine that could use radio waves to transmit a newspaper to be printed out right in your home. it's kind of amazing. except the data transmission would take about 18 minutes per page to print. but back then you don't need a paper boy on a bicycle anymore. this is sort of today like a scrolling through our phones to read the news right in the comfort of your own home.

but back to einstein because more ominously. his letter also wrote some hard truths. where he said quote? people living in different countries kill each other at irregular intervals. so that also for this reason anyone who thinks of the future must live in fear and terror end quote. not exactly an inspiring message for the future. but einstein would be proven right and probably sooner than he would have thought because he more than most probably felt that fear for the future. einstein had already renounced his original german citizenship in protest of hitler and he had left germany where he was living after hitler took power effectively becoming a refugee and eventually landing in the united states. two days before the fair opened

hitler would withdraw from the german polish non-aggression pact. and the storm clouds would continue to gather over europe. but i want to step back again for a moment to fill in a bit of background here because what even is a world's fair anymore? well, these things were created first in the late 1700s in france where it was meant to be held every five years kind of like the olympics. in fact the world's fair predates the modern olympics, which only got started around the turn of the 1900s. the world's fair was created in this time where competition in europe was heating up. nations were battling each other for superiority. and so the french thought that it would be good to have some sort of exhibition where each country could gather and show off how amazing it was all of its culture and products and and everything. it's it excelled at but this

could foster friendly competition instead of war. and that world's fair circuit was just as competitive if not more competitive than the modern olympics are. the host nation would build huge in ornate buildings to host the fair. each country would put on elaborate exhibits. hundreds of thousands millions would attend and these fairs would be talked about the world over. they'd run for two years at a time and and ultimately in 1939 44 million people attended. these fairgrounds were so huge it would often take multiple days. in in fact, it was recommended that if you attend the new york world's fair that you spend two weeks to see it all multiple days. but really these used to be huge events and they sort of started to fizzle after the 1960s.

although i myself will admit to being surprised to find out there's literally a world's fair going on right now in dubai. the last one was in 2015 in italy, so they're still happening. they're just a shadow of their former glory. but back to 1939. it is the us's turn to host the fair again, and the genesis came back in 1936 when the site's location was selected in queens, new york. an area part of which at the time was a garbage dump 15 stories tall. and the fact that the fair was constructed on top of a notorious garbage heap. was maybe yet another unintended irony about what the future would bring. in order for the fair to be profitable they had to get major european nations to attend and in a major way and this started

off poorly. both britain and france agreed to construct very small pavilions and only on the condition that the united states paid for them. but then guy named grover whalen the president of the world's fair corporation. he decided he was gonna play a little dirty. he figured that the path to success the way to get the big important western european nations to come. was to get in bed with their top rivals. that if wayland could get nazi germany or the soviet union to attend in a big way then britain and france and the other western european nations would really have to step up their game in order to compete. so he promised the ussr a very large and very favorable location to show off the glories

of the soviet union. without even haggling over the price stalin agreed to pay four million dollars for the rights to build. which is about 75 million dollars today. and whelan's trick worked. the very next morning he got a call to come to paris to negotiate for a much bigger french presence the french were not going to elect the soviets. take all the glory. but cleverly whale and decided that before he stopped in paris. he was going to make a little detour to italy to sell mussolini on the idea that he couldn't possibly let those communists outshine the great fascist nation of italy. he arrives in rome. and waylon would later write quote. as i entered the dictator's

office. i saw a highly polished floor at least 200 feet long. often the distance mussolini stood with his back to me looking at the sunset through a massive window. end quote paints a lovely scene, but whelan continues to use flattery to sell the idea to mussolini saying that new york's world of tomorrow well, that was just like mussolini's vision for italy. muslimi was skeptical, but that that sort of sold him. he would claim to wayland that his vision for italy using the government to build the country back up was no different than roosevelt's new deal that did italy fascist, you know america democracy. it's the same thing. and when mussolini asked the price after having agreed well and being a gambler upped it

from the four he charged the soviets. the great nation of italy a low low price of just five million dollars. written in france quickly increase their partition participation as well and ultimately 62 nations would attend. and the fact that mainly juiced by the soviets and the italians this money flooded in and allowed the fair to expand and prosper at first. but it wasn't just countries attending the fair. partly, the fair was a means to help repair the image of capitalism and corporations, which had rightfully gotten a pretty bad rap during the great depression. a lot of people blamed big corporations for the economic doldrums in fact, there was one proposal that to get the economy juiced to get people back to work again.

the government should pay companies to hire people to just build things. let's say toasters to build toasters that the government would then take away and bury in the landfill. so that you just have this complete production line of construction and then garbage, but that would keep people employed building this stuff. that's just gonna end up getting thrown out that it was the government's responsibility to keep production production flowing no matter what all that waste doesn't matter as long as the company's profitable. one public relations firm said quote the lack of confidence in capitalist democracy itself must be overcome in the public eye. so major businesses were welcomed to open exhibits as well. in fact, this is one of the first times again with whale and being clever about how to make money. he licensed the logo of the

world's fair to corporations to print on jackets and mugs and whatever they wanted. this was pretty atypical at the time this sort of corporate branding wasn't really a thing until the world's fair willyn would brag about how much money was pouring in from these licensing deals that companies wanted to get in on the the excitement and sell their wares. and none more so none were more welcome. to open exhibits then general motors the general which spent seven million dollars today's equivalent of about a hundred and thirty two million dollars to build. and incredible pavilion a temporary one 132 million for just two years before they tore it down. but this was an astonishing sweeping building that rose ten stories tall. people waited for up to three

hours to see the massive futuristic diorama that they had built inside where they would fly over it in these chairs looking down at the world of 1960. this is what they were depicting the world of tomorrow. a world that might seem rather familiar to us today they had skyscrapers. they had 14 lane super highways that they called express motorways. where narrators explained that by using these curved ramps cars could take corners at 50 miles an hour. that was astonishing the top speed the top speed flat out pedal to the floor of most cars of the era was 45 miles an hour this you could go around a corner at 50. you don't need to stop at an intersection to turn.

in fact that car of 1960 would have a radioactivated beam projected from the front bumper to keep it following a safe distance behind the car ahead. it's what we've got today with those automated cruise controls. but but again keep in mind this was a time when most roads were dirt or gravel cars capped out at 45 miles an hour. most of the skyscrapers in that exhibit had landing pads on their roofs for flying cars. that too was a pretty shocking thing since not even helicopters existed yet. the first successful helicopter flight wouldn't come until six months after the fair opened. another similar exhibit inside that round parisphere that was the center piece of the fair.

amen to project the future. inside there. they had an exhibit called democracy. course trying to play against nazis in the communists. this is democracy where it depicted a future where people would live outside the city centers in these leafy rural-esque neighborhoods that they called pleasantville's where by using those new express motorways and private automobiles. it would allow a man quick and easy access to his job in the city, but the ability to live outside the city center in a private single-family home in quiet and comfort. they're describing an american suburb eight years before the first suburb appears in america. and the idea also that it would be normal for people to drive their own private cars to work.

this was at a time when only one in five americans actually owned a car. most walk to work or took public transit. across the fair there were displays of state-of-the-art high-speed railway trains, there were modern airplanes. there were new ocean liners. ford the ford motor company had brand new sedans which fair growers could drive themselves on the so-called road of tomorrow. for the exhibit you could get in a car and drive it around this little test track again. shocking the majority of people in 1939 had never driven a car before only one in five own. at the fair addition to cars you could drive and dioramas you could go through they had also what they called the world's longest electric stairway.

which is just an escalator, but people lined up to ride this to the top and then ride it back down again. i think the most hilarious thing of all was a giant robot they had on display that it's a key feature was that it could smoke cigarettes a robot. they called electro. pleasure i present to you electro the westinghouse moto man electro. come here and here he comes ladies and gentlemen walking up to greet you under his own power. all right, electro. well you tell your story, please.

who me? yes you okay toots ladies and gentlemen, i'll be very glad to tell my story. i am a smart fellow as i have a very fine brain. that's the most remarkable thing i've ever seen. that guide make on my football team. why not like joe. i know you enjoy these and are really going to try to give you a nice pleasure out of these so here you got that now on to it. you may now smoke. this cigarette go on. oh, yes electro. you do need a light too. don't you? all right. here you are.

and folks he's only two years old too. just learning. pleasure that clip is from a promotional film the westinghouse corporation, which built electro had put out. but people were mesmerized by the futuristic technologies that were on display here. but even the carrier corporation built and igloo to show off their brand new technology air conditioning. the idea that humans with the touch of a button could cool themselves down on a hot summer day was astonishing this was so ahead of its time that it wasn't until the 1970s when residential air conditioning started to become commonplace in american home. in fact in light of all of these new technologies the narrator at the general motors exhibit said

quote. does it seem strange fantastic unbelievable remember this is the year of the 1960s and quote. a fantastic future a world of tomorrow the at&t corporation the phone company had even built and put on display the first device that could synthesize the sound of the human voice the first computerized voice as it were. listen to it here. doesn't ellen well you had the voters say greetings everybody three every happy now. would you have him repeat that in a high void 3 and now in his best face in the new yorker magazine described that exhibit

probably the best when they called it creepy, but it is and and perhaps depending on how you see it. there was a whole section of the fair devoted kind of creepy things. because it wasn't just countries or corporations on display. there was also an adult entertainment section. adult in every sense of the word with nudie shows with an exhibit called and i quote oscar the obscene octopus. which was a rubber octopus that used its tentacles to slowly strip the bathing suits off of female swimmers. there was also an exhibit called little miracle town featuring the world's greatest little people 125 resident midgets who lived in this little mini town that you could walk through and see russia as part of their

exhibit didn't do creepy americans were the kings of the creepy here, but russia didn't do little either. they went grandiose. they sent a replica of a subway station in moscow. why a subway station because not only was this just built it was one of the most modern metro systems in the world. but it was also meant to highlight that their communist system of government was truly for the people. that instead of letting capitalist profits go to the wealthier, but creating frivolous things like a fake human speech generator. in communism all the excess money all the profits go back to the people in the form of public investments investments, like excellent and beautiful public

transit systems. this picture here is a subway station in moscow. it looks like a cathedral and it was meant to they thought the people in our society should be inspired by public works. you want to compare? there's new york's subway. built by the government by the lowest bidder and it looks like a dingy basement. but soviet communism showed off the fact that their system was better. that this is where society should put its excess wealth not so that some rich guy can buy himself another sports car gold-plated back scratcher. well new yorkers who often have no choice but to take public transit are in a rat infested dimly lit water leaking dingy basement for their subway. so this challenge to western

democracy and capitalism was real and it was on display for everyone to see. and some of the people who saw it were dignitaries from around the world who arrived in new york to participate. this picture is of the procession of the motorcade of england's king george who sailed over to attend the fair? on that day when the british king arrived one million of new york school children were given the day off to go watch the procession. but ultimately because we with the benefit of hindsight know how things turned out this fair. its vision for tomorrow was outdated before it even began. in september 1938 a year before the fair opened. british prime minister had gone before the world met with hitler and said this afterwards this

morning i had another talk with the german chancellor here hitler and here is the paper. which bears? his name upon it as well as mine. the settlement of the czechoslovakian problem which has now been the cheese. is in my view only the prelude to a larger settlement in which all europe? may find peace. it's peace for our time declares chamberlain. he's talked to hitler. we've saved the check checkoslovakia from nazi aggression by coming to this

pact and we see peace and prosperity for europe ahead hitler is a man can work with okay, except before the fair even opened one month later both or sorry one year later both czechoslovakia and austria were under nazi control. he violated his agreement lied to the british prime minister and the world. before the fairs end belgium denmark france the netherlands and others nearly half the european nations would be added to that list of having been crushed by nazi aggression. after the nazi takeover of czechoslovakia, mayor, laguardia, led the charge to raise $600,000 to help finish their pavilion. despite the fact that the germans demanded it be shut down because the country was under their control now. and ultimately the outbreak of

war was a paul cast over the entire fair. when the 1940 season rolled around so and runs for the spring and summer and fall of 1939. it shuts down for the winter and then it reopens for a second year and when that second year came around 10 european countries wouldn't return. those who had worked at the polish pavilion the first country to fall the nazi aggression didn't go back to europe at the end of 1939 why voluntarily return to a country under nazi occupation? instead a few of the staff opened up a polish restaurant in new york city. they had nowhere else to go and no no hope for the future. the most notable nation not to return was the soviet union. they ordered that their massive pavilion be torn down crated up and shipped back to russia leaving a gaping hole in the fairgrounds.

in this place the americans opened up just a big open space called the american commons dedicated to the perpetuation of an american ideal. but the american ideal might have been real for americans, but the fear was even more real. in boston the dome of the state house, which was this beautiful gilded gold color. when the war broke out they painted it gray to make it harder for nazi bombers to spot if they were ever to attack the united states. the fear was real. after 1940 as as the for 1940 season opened with the british being the last european country to bravely hold out against the nazis with london being bombed nightly during the blitz. that british pavilion in new

york became a crowd favorite packed with people wanting to show support and learn about britain. in their exhibit they had displayed an original magna carta from the year 12 15 the first time it had ever left, england. and with the outbreak of war the government decided that it was probably safer to leave the magna carta in the united states. should england fall to the nazis. and it would stay in the us secured away in fort knox until 1947. which was probably just as well because it was also in the british pavilion were a time bomb was discovered planted in a back room next to a nazi flag. and the police had managed to get this bomb out of the building that was still full of tourists they carried it outside and and started to to work on it

before it exploded. killing two officers the case was never solved. the only evidence was this swastika flag planted beside the bomb in the british pavilion. so maybe it's for the best. that is the fair wound down in 1940 despite the the concerns of the organizers and and the their you know idea that they didn't really want this to happen to the fair their glorious vision of the future. instead the buildings and exhibits were dismantled. it's 40 million tons of steel were sent to be melted down and made into tanks. sent to fuel the war effort this world of tomorrow literally ended up in the war. and that grand vision of the world of tomorrow seemed to collapse back into the ash heap that it was originally built on this garbage dump.

but it will still remain. as we wrap up here, it'll still remain this iconic moment this iconic year that stands out in world history, even if the memory of the fair itself and it's hope for the future as mostly receded into the background. for those of you who want to learn more about the 1939 worlds fair. this is a great book twilight at the world of tomorrow and and do credit. it's a book. i've drawn a lot of information from to help build out this talk. but all wrap up my portion. there are the floor is open for questions so we can continue the conversation we can pull out any things you want to expanded upon or any more fascinating things about this world of tomorrow or the world of 1939. so thanks for watching. i'll turn the mic back over to heather who's a moderate the q&a here.

well, thank you alan and like alan said, please feel free to continue to put questions in the q&a box on your screen, but we already have quite a few. so i will dive right in if you're all set. absolutely. let's go for it. okay, so someone i'm gonna go back to kind of the beginning-ish of your talk you and mentioned that there were a lot of americans who went to the soviet union in search of a better life. and someone's curious. do we know what became of those folks? did they have to come back? did they stay there? do we have any information about what happened with them? yeah. yeah, we do actually. yeah, so there were huge numbers who went over in the depths of the great depression the soviets specifically recruited people who worked in the automotive industry and the steel industry these industries. they wanted to build up really rapidly and and there were many books on this memoirs of people who went over and at first loved it were astonished mainly because like this is a country

on the move. it's building rapidly. it's industrializing. there's work to be done the soviet people that first generation seemed like happy and proud and patriotic that they were producing for the future. um, and it was good money compared to what they could make in the united states the living accommodations were great partly because the soviets wanted this partly as a propaganda effort they gave them great apartments and all these privileges, but probably what's most interesting is that there were thousands of african-americans who were recruited to go to the soviet union the soviets were pitching their idea not just as a political and economic project, but as a social project that the soviet union one of their things was to eliminate inequality. and so they welcomed african-americans these people who were heavily discriminated against back home. welcome them into the soviet union partly again for propaganda to show off that

they're equal here that we're colorblind. we don't care about the color of your skin. we're not racist like those americans and so the most fascinating memoirs are from african americans. there's a book called black on red who talks about how he was like he had a great life in the soviet union at first, i mean, in fact, there's one story he tells of their of the among the white americans who came over and worked in his factory one day they you know, because they brought their racism with them, they jumped him and they beat him up and he fought them off, but the police were called and the police came and interviewed him and he was cowering because like in america you fight a white man, you're going to prison like there's no justice for people of color in america in the 19. but he was shocked to see that these russian police officers white police officers treated him with respect questioned him arrested the americans who had

committed this crime deported them back to america and made this guy like a national hero in a way. so at first life was great. and then it wasn't so by the 19 late 1930s as a soviets get more repressive but specifically with the outbreak of world war two. there's a lot of suspicion cast on these people a lot by then have left, you know after that initial rose-colored glasses. they start to realize that life and italitarian dictatorship isn't what it looks like on the surface isn't all that great a lot of them were kicked out at the start of world war two, but there were many others like the author of black on red. i believe it's him who stays and meets a russian woman gets married has kids has a you know, wonderful life is wonderful as you can under stalinist russia. so yeah, it's quite fascinating because the story we don't often hear about that like and it shows the pull of communism in those early days before we learn

about the atrocities and sort of see that actually this doesn't really work as a system. it was really alluring to a lot of americans who were out of work and impoverished and desperate at that time to start a new life going to russia was a thing. great. thank you. okay, so you obviously mentioned that the fair was in queens on a dump site. but someone's curious was this the same location they used for the 1964. fair it was yeah. this is former dump site, which was cleaned up for the the 1939 fair all those buildings were torn down except for one my understandings. they made it into a park between the the years and then in 1964 when the fair came back to the united states, they held it in the same location. in fact, i mean, it's plagiarism they held in the same location. they had the same theme instead of the world of tomorrow. it was futurama again depicting

this future world of tomorrow. you know general motors came and did this future exhibit, but the the big thing of the 1964 fair is that everyone was obsessed about space travel, um, because that was the hot new technology. we hadn't yet gone to the moon. we'd only just gone to space, you know broken the bounds of the atmosphere. so that was a long-winded say way of saying yes, it's the same location. i'm in both of those fares and to be honest actually some of you who might live in work today. i don't know what became of it after that. i is it a park guy? i don't actually know. well, we'll come back to a couple of things that you touched on in that answer actually, but before i move on someone wanted to know if you're able to talk about the federal art projects involvement in the site. oh. not really in that like i can't really speak about their involvement in the site aside from so part of the new deal.

the federal government is funding not just building roads and bridges and and setting up, you know, social security nets and and trying to get people back to work. there's a civilian conservation corps. basically, i think it's a hundred thousand people. they send out building public works projects. so at least in on the east coast one of the big projects if any of you have been to the blue ridge parkway or the shenandoah national park, those are built under the new deal projects. there's a bunch of cabins up there that you can rent and they're built by roosevelt and and part of that, you know, we often focus on like the infrastructure building as a way to make work for people but to help out of work artists the government pays artists to go out do all kinds of things to do poetry to do to set up classes in communities and teach work to do big murals and paintings around the the country to go out and document stories and and musicians so they pay artists

and so i that's leading up to the fair. there are a bunch of art installations and others a building, you know dedicated to artistic pursuits, but i can't sorry. i can't speak specifically to their involvement, you know on a piece by piece in the world's fair. i that i don't know. that's great context though. thank you. okay, so a couple people are curious about the international exhibition of 1939 in san francisco. which do we know is there any connection between the two of them? there are competing world's fairs that year in fact in that opening clip of roosevelt giving his speech which is a guy hereby declare the world's fair and he pauses and says the new york world's fair open because there are concurrent fares and i again, i don't know the specifics but there are worlds fairs that are the big events every