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behnam ben taleblu. -- >> >>. >> -- . . . . . . . ,,, we are proud not to take any government funding. >> i want to start, obviously, we're gonna be talking about iran's nuclear program. defense undersecretary, colin paul, it was at the house arms service committee last week. he said something about iran's ability to make a nuclear bomb.

here he is. >> iran's nuclear progress since we left has been remarkable. back in 2018 when the previous administration decided to leave the jcpoa it would've taken iran about 12 months to produce one bombs worth of fissile material now would take about 12 days i think there is still the view that if you can resolve this issue diplomatically and put this constraint back on the nuclear program and it is better than the other options. right now the is on ice. jcpoa -- the iranians not wanting to take. of course, iran's behavior has changed since. and not the least of which their support for russia which is the subject of the conversation here today. i don't think we are on the precipice of reentering the. a >> couple of things there,

bynum. the first was 12 days. is that surprising to you? no >> the regime has steadily eroded that one-year breakout lap that colin kyle had mentioned [interpreter] . starting actually right around the time of the banana station was enacted and integrated you had the regime several things to speed this up. drop the clock all the way down from several months to about two weeks, as he mentioned. they installed more advanced centrifuges. these are machines that do not break as much. they installed the enriched uranium at faster rates with a smaller footprint. quite critical for a sneak out program. not a massive break a kind of program. the regime has been enriching not just 20%, which they lasted the pre-nuclear deal they resume that in january, 2021. they went to 60%. a very important discussion is a regime has flirted with 84%. the highest enrichment rate recorded ever. while they have not decided to

amass 84% enriched uranium the regime is increasingly comfortable taking these risks. the one thing i would take umbrage with with what doctor carl starting out the nikkhah the timeline was the 2018 decision by the u.s. to leave the nuclear deal. yes it is true that iran has broken the barrier imposed on its nuclear program found that the. let's be forget, even prior to that deal, the regime had accumulated anywhere from 7 to 9 bombs worth of load enriched iranian monotone territory. the idea that this is absolutely uncharted water, that the clock of the may 28th withdrawal represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the iranian nuclear program. i am glad to talk to cause said we are not on the precipice abandoning the deal precisely because iran feel so comfortable with escalation today that it is healthy with the countries in the bottom estimation. it is breaking through new barriers. it is not the biden adminstration's fault. it's not former president

trump's wall. the reason we have no nuclear deal today is precisely because of iran. >> the undersecretary had said it was a mistake for the trump administration to pull out of the iran nuclear deal. do you agree with that? >> i think style has a substance of its own. many of us learned that the hard way through the four years of the trump administration. looking back on and now you cannot have a holistic iran policy that is aimed at constraining the missile program the drone program doing something much more credible on human rights while granting the genes apparatus of domestic repression, foreign repression, or mastication relief. those two things do not square with me. but i have light to lead the deal and followed a different deal? yes was the transatlantic role between american and european partner unnecessary 20 teen 2019, yes. good things have been done very differently? yes. the fact is they weren't. throughout the entire time from 2018 to the president, across administrations. iran has not been fighting a four or president mama, or

fighting for president biden. to start in-flight these top launches on different investigations, again, is to misunderstand iran's goals. it is not earnest by one or another. it is trying to spite the united states. >> i will remind our viewers that if you would like to call in and ask a question you can do that on our lines by party affiliation. democrats to 02748 8000 -- seven for 8001. independents 202748 8002. the undersecretary also said some deal with iran would be better than no deal. it would put constraints on them. even though it is not likely will have any kind of deal with iran, currently. do you agree with that? >> when iran is increasingly comfortable giving drones to russia to use against civilian targets in ukraine, evolving its ballistic missile program to never push or seen levels of

accuracy and range increasingly repressing its own people for five plus months now. running people, particularly iranian women and girls have been leading nationwide protests. and that current department i think diplomacy would be throwing this regime a lifeline. i do not think we should be in that business. philosophically, objective, they should you have diplomacy on the table? yes, you should have options on the table. mike wombat the way the bottom iteration pushing this is because of the unfortunate hyper partisan politics of the nuclear deal, it was very clear to american adversaries, not just iran but china, north korea, russia, where the menstruation wanted to take a different tack than his predecessor. that created a space for the kind against arraigned has made in its make the program. philosophically some constraints might be better. what we trade away for those constraints is where our take umbrage. i would love to see those who want some constraints put meat on the bone. who exactly, in iran, are you willing to give sanction relief to? what kind of changes have you seen from these organizations? have the central bank iran's

funding terrorism? -- has the regime seems to use major oil and petrochemical sales to fund its regional destabilization? if you can answer me those and tell me those entities are sanction relief we can have a conversation i'm what a limited deal would look like. >> iran, itself, doesn't even want to come to the table, as of last summer. >> exactly that is a whole new ball ga we are dealing with. the debate a no deal or some deal or a bad deal. -- going into turn right now they are all to have a line. the regime is consolidating. what you've seen now with the current president, the new national security elite, as well as the direction that has been the middle east's longest serving autocrat now, he is quite content and setting up these ultra high liners for a new generation of the islamic republic outer he passes. let's not forget, i think he's 84 years old. he's had this job for three plus decades. he seems to be in no mood for compromise. he has an assessment which is a

sticky representational assessment the u.s. is on its way out of the region the u.s. has a best friend organized a regional coalition against iran because america can't do it itself. it is going to take a lot for us to change the suggestion. it is sticking in harmony's mind. it is reinforced by a whole variety of things such as not responding to the 83 beirut terrorist attacks. now responding to the 96 cobalt terror attacks. the way the u.s. left iraq in afghanistan. the way iran got its way out of america and former president obama said -- moscow. the islamic republic sacrificed everything, alongside with the, russian to keep the side there. the regime has the impression that america is not the superpower once was. these guys are increasingly comfortable with escalation. even if we pull our punches. even if we engage in some kind of restraint policy. which perhaps dr. gall or some of his opponents maybe four, that is a fundamental

understanding of where the policy of today. former secretary defense majesties to say that an enemy gets the vote. i think it's khatami understand that the nature and intention of the enemy. >> i want to ask you about ballistic missile capability in iran. you wrote a report about. it's not just the missile itself. you have to be able to carry that missile to a target. where is iran right now in that capability? >> thank you very much for mentioning. it was a three plus-year labor of love. i have been with the organization for ten years. eight of those ten years have tried to cover this one threat. the reason is for more than a decade different u.s. directors of national children's have said that iran has the largest ballistic missile arsenal in the middle east. that's more than the native ally turkey, u.s. ally, israel u.s. ally saudi arabia. that should be particularly worrisome given the consolation of bases that we have there. the regime has gone, this past decade, from seeing those bases that the threat, to seeing this bases as an opportunity for a potential attack. theafter the u.s. struck awesoe

out soleimani, iran's chief terrorist, in 2020. the iranians responded with 20 long range missiles precision strikes in bases. the non response that the regime sense from the trump administration even them hasn't bolden them to go even further on the missile program. the missile so precise now that the russians are interested in a missile deal with the iranians. that should worry the europeans with how proliferate they are making drones. they're making qualitative answers. they have the qualitative vantage. now they're layeri thing maneuverability, survive ability, range. precision, these are all changing vectors of the iranian ballistic missile threat. guess what? it's not just in their hands anymore. it is also in the hands of their proxies. for instance, co-opting in now a full-time proxy of the islamic republic. they now have medium range ballistic capability. for the first time ever, as documented in the report,

rather than a capability going from iran to the houthis, we are now seeing reverse proliferation where iran tests a whole new system. in yemen, in a foreign leader, once it's proven its effectiveness, henry labels it as a whole new weapon in the arsenal of the patron. patron to proxy, we are going proxy to patron. this is an evolving game if you're trying to solve the iranian deliberation problem. any direct threat to the u.s. mainland? >> the regime actually has a self-imposed political cap. it's not a technical cap, it's a political cup. 2000 plus kilometers. currently from western iran, hypothetically. all of turkey, bulgaria, parts of romania, parts of ukraine, things like that. they do, however have a space launch vehicle program. we have a space launch

technology to move towards a potential icbm capability that both liquid propellant in san professing systems which give you different levels of the owners move ability. the idea for iranian weaponry assad prevented system. that entire solid propellant space program is in the hands of the islamic revolutionary guard corps that same entity driving the nuclear program, the drone program, driving the new color suppression. it is also driving this range threat. the irgc officials talk about changing this range that they have. saying that it is not permanent. they have made leaves and bounds and strides in this missile program, last year. when the whole world was infatuated with iranian drones, i wrote an article 2022 talking about new motors that the regime had. the regime's alter hard-line now calling these motors basically pathway towards in the radiant icbm. they are increasingly comfortable flirting with this capability. unlike what we did with the

north korean threat where the u.s. too late to respond, we should get out ahead of this threat. >> aside from just the drones, talk about the growing alliance with russia. and in the iranian support for the war in ukraine. >> and by that you mention this. there is a conventional wisdom and form by half a millennia of history. this is a history, as an iranian american, and that all american -- they have no country taken away more land from iran in the past 500 years then the russian federation and the czars form, the soviet union form, or even in the current russian federation form. iran took about a decade plus to negotiate in the air defense deal to get the s-300 from russia more than a decade ago. the s-300 and 400 enough finding themselves and other jurisdictions in the middle east. even though there is this historical and the d. and the reason error they have had a hard time doing business with each other. this new adherence to

contesting what is left from the american liberal order. the hard-line ideology of these folks. in some alliance with china north korea on one tier in the other tiers syria, venezuela, cuba and another, forgive the phrase axis of evil. even though ideation ali they are very different, politically they may look a different, they're shooting at the same people. the increasing the seal them domestic survival of one regime tied to this rebel of the other. the assumption that these guys have a cap to the cooperation given this 500 years of animosity are increasingly being disproven in places like, first, syria and now ukraine. my fear is ukraine will not be the last theater for this type of cooperation. the u.s. has to prepare for where that could go in the future. >> y mentioned the president of an recently made a state visit to china. that was his first visit. >> if we are looking at where

the regime is getting its funding for the need to the program, for the missile program, for the drone program, there is one country that during, pre-, and after sanctions during the nuclear deal in post make the deal has been the largest listed in illicit importer of iranian oil and petrochemical products. that is the people's republic of china. if one has a qualm with the direction the regime is able to go with, if one has a qualms even a crohn with iran thumbing its nose at the jcpoa or others in the bottom is duration, one should have a larger quayle with china. they are bankrolling these times of intervention. there are economic and political ties to china. there is, of course, the 25 year deal that is much talked about d.c. for a few years now. china and iran are going to go for deeper economic and political investment. china and russia is now part of the shanghai corporation organization. iran's eastern shift is happening in realtime.

the folly of d.c. to think that, again, that eastern shift was begun by may 2018 and not a groundswell of or hard-line views of having the islamic republic go east in order to fight the west. >> let's start taking calls let's start with pat in keyport new jersey. republican. good morning, pat. >> good morning. my question is about the future of the nonproliferation regime. what will happen to that if iran goes full war nuclear and develop a nuclear weapon? well the nonproliferation regime continue to have any legitimacy? thank you? . >> you ask a very important question, actually. one that i don't think d.c. has grappled with. the agreement that has animated the political lead of d.c. as the 2015 nuclear deal you are right to point to the pillar of international non proliferation

which is the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. iran is actually in violation of that treaty iran is in violation with the safeguard agreement which governs how the iea governs the material that it currently hasn't has declared if the regime does go nuclear it would be a torpedo to the nonproliferation treaty there gene may do something clever if it ever decides to weaponize or do a underground test or publicize such a test it my first neave the nonproliferation treaty to say it is not in violation of it and then go ahead until something on the ground but that is needless lowering on behalf of iran. a nuclear weapon in the world's former foremost state sponsor of terrorism would be, in my view, and many in washington on the right, on the, left a cascade of deliberation among america's allies and adversaries. not just in the middle east but really, globally. the u.s. during the cold war

had a hard time constraining some of its allies and partners whose nuclear programs. it had a hard time assuaging their security concerns in response to conventional and even nuclear capabilities that american adversaries of different theaters and conflict posed. >> we have a question here via text. they say, who would be in control of iran's nuclear weapon if there was another popular revolution? this brings up, of course, what is going on internally with iranian internal politics with the protests going on around mahsa hammy needs death. >> i think this is very important question. a two pronged question. who is in charge of this arsenal, these capabilities. unfortunately, another dividend of the 2015 nuclear deal, much of the capabilities that iran had in terms of its nuclear program, centrifuges, stockpiles of nuclear enrichment they were not required to be destroyed they

were required to be stored. if there was some sort of fall of authority for good or bad a revolution that the iranian people which we haven't had for 44 years, or whether you have alcohol line consolidation after the death of amini -- you could have a collapse of time to authority. in which case there would be real questions as to who is governing iran's official material who is in charge of iran's ballistic material? who -- in the presence of the collapse of the central authority, what are the u.s. of the u.s. partners are going to make sure the fissile material is not traffic. that iran did not turn into a major uconn network on steroids. these are tough questions to those who want to look at around through the human night lands with a nuclear nonproliferation lines are going to have to answer realistically we did not have an answer for that. there is no such thing today, at least publicly, in washington that existed for ukraine, belarus, in kazakhstan

when the soviet union collapsed. the program and things that have been done to make sure that weapons and capability did not spread as far as they already did beyond the borders of the soviet union when it did collapse. it is a very important question in my view it does not mean that we should put the nuclear clock ahead of the democracy clock. a responsible torrent of the very akin to constraining those capabilities. it is something we have to grapple with and prepare for vast and worst-case scenario. so there is no clear answer at least in the open source in d.c. >> good morning first of all i want to commend you because you are all number one you allow the people to speak. but i want to say is america is the world's leader. all those nations out there they feed off of us because we are not afraid of russia, we are not afraid to china, we are helping the people of ukraine. at the end of the day we are going to win. everyone who is with us at rio.

the powers gonna be with america. america is showing they are under god's guidance in god's rights. we are doing the right thing. president joe biden is a great president. but he's not afraid he went over there in those area and let people know that world peace is important to americans they can see we are not afraid to china we are not afraid of russia. just like we weren't afraid of germany and adolf hitler. we are the true people of god. god is real. when you have got you don't hear anything. that is why i became an activist. i do not fear anything. >> all right, billy. comment? >> sure, i think the caller is talking about a nation who could potentially be guided by the divine presents, one who many would certainly believe with. the problem is some of those adversary, some of those in the islamic republic, also believe they have their got on their

side. not to make this into something of a wholly roar but these kind of things leave very little room on the margins for compromise. they make conflict much more likely. it does not mean that america should not be proud or confident, they certainly should be, i think we need a realistic view of the national security system that we do face. as confident as the caller was, and how we can contend with russia or china or iran i think our track record on these issues particularly in the past 20 years has not been as great to warrant the confidence that i think the caller had. i think the fundamental child with our adversaries, we forget about this, they are actually pretty good in connecting the dots between our behavior and our rhetoric and knowing where the gaps are. i fully support to callers into diaz. i'm indeed, god bless him. i think it is time for us to marry our rhetoric with the reality of foreign policy within these areas. >> ricky sent you a text from

baltimore, i don't know how you can say trump leaving the deal didn't hurt things when we had promises that if they broke their were consequences. not to mention, why would they come back to the table when next president can leave it? >> indeed, the next president can leave. the islamic republic can do the things they are doing today. one of the unfortunate parts of the deal is nothing which really destroyed. things were put on ice. the areas of the nuclear program, the no winner declared any color program of the islamic to public that would require it to be kappa areas that the regime had mastered anyway. areas they could face in overtime where areas that the regime needed to improve on. testing phasing phasing in operating advanced interfusions for instance the idea that the deal actually solve the nonproliferation program as a fundamental we understanding of the dm. trust me a read the 150 or the one hosted on the state department website it is not designed to be a solution to the iranian nuclear program.

and the preamble the islamic republic says of that deal it will not seek nuclear weapons. if you are in the business of simply taking the islamic republic at their word then let's talk later about a bridge but i have that you might be interested in. bobby sent us a tweet. she said, what threat is iran to the u.s. specifically? what gives the u.s. the right to make demands of iran's use of a nuclear program? if iran wanted to go for a new today we had a caller talk about the envy and the architecture of nonproliferation it simply could not be a party to these treaties if iran wanted to benefit from the benefits of the i.d. from the particle of being a member in good standing with its and bt obligation it simply would not have to sign up for those things it is trying to benefit from the diplomatic cover that those things provide it while also incrementally advancing its nuclear program. it is about actually adhering to the things that you sign up for. to, in terms of the nature of

the iranian threats the islamic republic prior to the terrorist attack tonight 11 had been behind some of the most grow text terrorist attacks on american forces in u.s. history more recently we talked about ballistic missiles since forward to that ballistic missile barrage that u.s. soldiers faced in iraq in january 2020 that was the most significant ballistic missile barrage during peacetime push away to that the u.s. soldiers faced. they had no defenses. u.s. soldiers simply had to run a cover of missiles after missiles after missile -- designed to tear a zero over 140 traumatic brain injuries. the iraq conflict from 2000 to 2011 i think the official defense department number in the number of u.s. and coalition cavities is 600 plus. this is a regime who spent its money and put it where its money where its mouth is when it says death to america as some did prior to be february 24 invasion of putin to ukraine

and said, no, this is bluffing or posturing. no sometimes our adversaries really do mean what they say. they end up building a national security strategy that allows them to strike or allows them to do them the exact opportunity when we least expect it. last we put words into the mouth of our adversaries and i think we should take them out the word. that is the safest way. >> eric is in brick new jersey. republican high,. eric >> good morning. i agree with your guest the only thing is aren't we really looking at a situation where the world is going to have to get used to be very distasteful iran ultimately having a nuclear weapon just like we have to live with north korea. the? reason i say that is although biden has looked at the world camera and have sworn up and down that iran would never get a nuclear weapon are we just about there? even though there have been exercises with israel and united states armed forces and what can only be described as a

possible preclude to an attack on iran's nuclear capabilities do you really think biden would ever pull the trigger? . >> that really is the million dollar question. would biden pull the? trigger right now the u.s. is actually handcuffing some of its most diplomatic and economic tools that may actually end up recruiting an unfortunate military conflict that you refer to, caller. there is actually something baked in one of the few things that i admire in the deal called snap back. very creatively reverse engineer is the veto mechanism in the u.n. security council traditionally in the u.n. security council one of the permanent five russia, china, what not. the european powers can veto a resolution. this nuclear deal has no legal standing outside of the u.n. security council. the way something in this accord, called snap back, works, up into the year 2025 based on a nuclear violation anyone who is a party to the nuclear deal

can trigger a dispute resolution mechanism, escalate that crisis to the security council, and then restore by collapsing the architecture of the jcpoa -- tougher, much more stringent casualties that exist under iran naked program prior to 2013. these things included a permanent ballistic missile testing prohibition which, unfortunately, thanks to the deal, is going to lapse in october 2023 these things included a permanent arm transfer prohibition. again thanks to the deal last in october 2020. i remember actually talking to the europeans in 2019 2020 about the need to actually extend this arms embargo. are either multilaterally or unilaterally. many of them had laughed. a lot of the four ministration's attempt to unilaterally extend the arms embargo. the arm administration radius is moving the knife closer to the neck of europe through iranian drones and potentially even michelle is going to

russia for use in ukraine i think it is high time we do take this conflict seriously i don't think a military solution right now is warranted. at the same time, i think that our top in a politicized debate about the military solution is noticed by our adversaries. is what is behind their increased risk taking you all right to know that iran is basically on the precipice 84% is a hot, skip and, a jump from 100% which is exactly what you need for a nuclear weapon. in total with the quanta they have it's about 45 bombs worth if they decide to act on that timeline that dr. carleton mentioned. >> let's talk to patty. reesville, wisconsin. independent line. hello. >> i. thank you for the information i have a grandson graduating from college in june. he has already enlisted in the air force as his grandmother i am fearful for my grandson and all young people. do we really belong in the

middle east after 9/11? my understanding is most of the terrorists or saudi citizens trained in iraq or iran shouldn't we be minding a little bit more of our own business i? don't believe in isolation but what have we accomplished? >> that is a very important debate. first of all congratulations to your grandson that you mentioned it's graduation. it's a very important debate that washington is having between the boundaries of isolation, internationalism, and what kind of sustainable world posture the united states need to have. i believe that we don't need the quantity of forces that we saw from 2005 to 2007 permanently stationed in the middle east wherever there were periods of time when the u.s. had to carriers in the persian golf and that was still insufficient to deter iranian naval escalation we need to have a real conversation about what a sustainable presence in

the region looks like. any vacuum is going to be exploited by the regime. any kind of withdrawal that we may have is gonna force us, ultimately, to have us fighting way twice as hard. i think that is the very unfortunate scenario of the men and women who have enlisted. who will actually end up serving where there is a conflict that is unforeseen that draws us back into a region where first or two degrees and one week left five or six years ago again for political not policy regions. >> let's talk about israel. is it possible the israeli military could take action against iran? either with the u.s. without the u.s.. telling the u.s. not telling. the u.s. >> i do think it is possible for the israelis to take military action that has been a consistent theme in israeli national security discourse regardless of who is at the helm in jerusalem. prime netanyahu now who is back, or really anyone else. i believe these are at least mean it when they say they

don't want to islamic republic to have a nuclear weapon. i think the question is what is the trigger for action? something that makes it a much harder answer today in the time of 84% enrichment is the nature of iran's nuclear advances, as well as the conventional deterrent capabilities in terms of, proxies, hezbollah, the missiles and drones they have. what wrist tolerance either others may have for a one-off strike versus the campaign. these are both technical, political, and strategic questions that i think the answers will lie in jerusalem. i think national security solution maker as well, apart from president bush, will not seek a -- success of the mission whether short of long term it would be better to have the u.s. acting in concert. it's a major conflict. increasingly we have seen the iranians try to drive wedges between the traditional arab partners in the region, israel, and even the europeans in the

area. this is an iranian diplomatic strategy to prevent such a coalition from forming. >> quick programming note to our viewers. coming up at 10 am right after this program here on c-span we will take a closer look at the military's health insurance program known as try care the defense department officials will do a several issues including rising costs and the lack of providers before a senate subcommittee the briefing is live at 10 am eastern on c-span right here you can also watch in a free mobile video app for c-span now more online at c-span.org. let's want to douglass who is in st. paul, minnesota. republican. hi douglas. >> i thought i called on the democratic line -- anyway. i would like to talk about a couple of things. the phrase the guest used. the deterioration of american-led rules based liberal world order. i hope i am quoting that phrase

right. we do talk about that in relation to the concept of american exceptionalism? and maybe rank it compared to something like climate change? another thing, i was in iraq about three years ago for about two weeks with eight other americans from minnesota. it was a fantastic trip for me. when we were traveling on a highway we noticed a facility, massive. surrounded by what looked like miles of fans, chain linked, top way boyer. who is in the distance. smokestacks we thought, what is this place? when we got to the sign

identifying it didn't say any company name. it was white lettering on a brown background like we might have in this country for a government facility. the words on war petrochemical plant. okay douglas, let's get a response. >> we call a mansion a couple of things. one, i would love to hear about the nature of your trip. again, any resilience that you may see in the iranian people or by unanimous things you may visit food, culture, history inside iran today is in spite of the policy of the islamic republic. it is not because of that. that is something out positive upfront. as great as it would be to visit iran, from what i understand it would be a one-way ticket for many people, including many americans. i would caution many from growing. although i understand fully the richness, dynamic history, in culture that that company has.

number one but number two the philosophical debate between the u.s.-led world order in the liberal-led world order or sometimes called the rules based order physically shorthand for postwar were to post 1945 world war ii that the u.s. enshrined. it enshrined through u.s. exceptionalism if you believe in the privacy of american military power in having those rules enforced by the u.s.. it was contested for a while during the cold war through the 1990s and were moving back into a contested phase today. the theory of american exceptionalism one as it is best to work through in order that has your values that you can backstop with military capabilities. the last note about petrochemical. i could've sworn the call was gonna say it was a nuclear facility. it's important we discuss petrochemicals -- because we are talking about oil and oil sales being used to fund the regimes. the islamic republic is a

petrochemical powerhouse. pachter-ing the peak power of trump era sanctions it was exporting petrochemicals even two u.s. partners in the region. now petrochemicals actually sell for higher rates than oil. if the regime is engaging in a smuggling business, which we know it is, it's actually generating interest in smuggling petrochemical over crude oil or petroleum because of the high return on investment given the cost of these things. it has established a robust not just refining capacity but a petrochemical industry. it's a major source of revenue for the regime. cracking down on this is really one way to change the regime's calculus. there were just reason thanks from the treasury department in a petrochemical smuggling ring between iran and china. let's hope we see more not less of this action from the biden station. stimulus next in wisconsin independent line, good morning,. samuel >> good morning. of owning a pure guest could inquire about the geopolitical

as, well, and also the theological leaders in islam speak about the 12 amazon in the quran. if there believe that they can hasten his return by creating chaos? >> what do you think? >> thank you very much, call. are you breakup unimportant even in the world of mainstream political culture and shiite islamic. a minority sect of about 10 to 12 of the world's muslims as. the 12 as you mentioned, sir, a reference to the 12th imam. she has believe it's hidden and will return in some kind of end of day scenario with christ. we do have a very religious team show today. it is precisely to bring about a new world order, justice, that kind of stuff. to the political culture inch she had-ism is not designed to hasten it it's what you call quietest. what you see from the seminary

theological centers in iraq, particularly in the holy city of dumb. there is an aversion to politics because politics is messy it requires lying, compromise, in tampers with the truth. this is why you have seen any aversion to it. does not mean the past 500 years around where you've had a she had establishment trying to work with and then ultimately overthrow the monarch system it doesn't mean that she isn't hasn't had a political role. what happened with the advent of the public in the founding father of the islamic republic he turned that quiet school upside down. made it inherently revolutionary. trapped into strains of thinking of society that were marxist and nationalists can a few used it with his veneer of political islamic. yes some of it is about creating chaos. there is a particular school of thought, not the dominant school of thought, about hastening the arrival of the 12th imam.

that used to be part of the doctrine of former president document in a job. it is imperative to understand that the system in iran today -- about the guardianship of the jurisprudence which has a plato style is ominous philosopher king at the helm of and authorities system, something like comedy at the helm of a islamic republic is an aberration to political political thought and she is in which, again, veers more towards quietism. much more towards the kind of thing to see coming out of not jeff, iraq. rather than iran. >> thousand new jersey republican line. hi, sound. >> a law. i would like to ask doctor ben taleblu just what can we do? what can the united states in the west due to overthrow the government of iran? the next part of the question is, when we do know, if and when we do overthrow the government of iran, mechanic government montana country will

iram be? >> well first allow me to clarify for the record unlike around supreme neater that earl take the honorifics not learned by him i do not have a ph.d.. on the heaven m.a.. thank you for the henry doctrine on air, sir. when it comes to overthrowing i do not think the government should be in the. business of overthrowing governments of the world. we should really be in the business of standing with people who support a values in particular in jurisdictions where they are a strategic interest with us. there could be no greater moral chasm between the state and iran today and society today. the state is basically islamist authoritarian. society's nationalist and secular. we have these two things, oil and water, fundamentally just don't mix. you see the levels of oppression by the state just to keep a lid on this kind of society. we need not entertain old school crew style conversations about overturning.

seems recently need to stand with the iranian people on the struggle. and it's not just moral dividends and political dividends in my view it will have policy institute given time the land when the iranian people have been chanting since 2009 not gaza, not lebanon, my life around. that tells you if we ever get a government in toronto that is in line with abuse, values, and wishes of the many people you would have a fundamentally different foreign security policy other tehran. not about exporting the revolution. when you hear the slogan, forget assad. think about us. it is about iran first to borrow a phrase. iran come home. pulling back the architecture proxy network and threats and i've made the middle east this cable -- backing every armed group for four plus decades. the u.s. needs to adopt a policy of maximum pressure against the islamic republic maximum support in maximum care for the iranian people. the different iterations

approaches overtime coupled with multilateral tough sanctions and harm military. deterrence in the region you can actually put the regime in a bit of a punter scenario. actually do well by your had in your heart. as you all know, something very hard to do in the middle east. >> that will be the last word. behnam ben taleblu a senior fellow at the foundation of defense of democracy. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. pleasure. >> today a look at ways that federal government can limit fraud and abuse in pandemic relief funding. we will hear testimony from the inspector general at the treasury department labor department and small business administration live coverage of the hearing begins at 2 pm eastern on c-span 3 c-span now our free mobile video app or online at c-span.org. c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies and more, including buckeye broadband.