bitter future for america with his book, superpower imperil at 10 pm on afterwardsdavid chin author mobs tree reflects and her families americans variants across five generations and the impact the chinese exclusion act had on our family and community. she's interviewed by yale university history professor, mary lou. launch book tv every sunday on c-span two. find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online, anytime, book tv dot org. >> c-span now is a free mobile app featuring your unfiltered view of what is happening in washington live and on demand. keep up with the day's biggest events with live streaming's of floor proceedings and hearings from u.s. congress, white house events, the courts, campaigns and more from the world of politics all at your fingertips. you can also stay current with

the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling information for c-span's tv networks and c-span radio. plus, a variety of compelling podcasts. c-span now is available at the apple store and google play. download it for free today. c-span now, you're front row seat to washington, anytime anywhere. >> we are back we are jones by sam kimonos. the author of the least of us. true tales of america and hope in the time of fentanyl in meth. he is here to discuss the fentanyl crisis in the united states and the role played by mexico in addressing it. sam, good morning. >> good morning, dusty. how are you doing? >> first, tell us about your background and in journalism career. >> sure. i have been a journalist 36 years now. i have written four books. i started out as a crime reporter in stockton, california. i lived in mexico for ten years.

i came back to work for the l.a. times. then, i have written since two books that, i guess, what i am better known for. the first one was about the opioid crisis, we overprescription of prescription pain pills by doctors. people don't switching to heroin. the second book that i wrote was really for me my fourth book but a book about community, a lot of things, focusing on the idea that noe one has a good time when dogs are concerned that is due to synthetic drugs. the most principle being fentanyl and methamphetamine. and what that would mean for the country. >> the most recent book, as you said, the least of us. the true tails of america and hope in the times of fentanyl in math. what did you learn writing that book that you didn't know before? >> good question, i would say,

again, and the mexican trafficking has transitioned away from plant-based drugs towards synthetics. meaning drugs that are made only with chemicals. it is really not about demand it's really about supply creating demand that can create enormous quantities of drugs as long as they have the ingredients, access to the ingredients. which they do through ports and mexico. . these drugs you donated farm farmers, sunlight, irrigation, you don't need anything to grow them. this has made it enormously more profitable. much easier to make. reduces the risk because you involve fewer people. they're all all kinds of benefits to the trafficking world from making synthetic drugs. i really believe that, as a country, we are essentially in the synthetic area of illegal

drugs. i do not believe we will be leaving anytime soon, unfortunately. >> as they move to synthetic drugs does this also mean that these drugs can be made now anywhere in the world? and the past you had to have, like he said, land and climate to grow 13 drugs. if they are synthetics and they don't need land in climate anymore. they just need a port with ingredients. >> exactly. that is all they need. new reckoning methamphetamine be made from different groups around the world. in asia there is a significant amount of production out of asia. in our hemisphere this is mostly a mexican story. generally from certain regions of mexico. the western side, mostly, of mexico. you can make this stuff anywhere. and you can make it in small rudimentary labs, or more sophisticated labs, away from the prying eyes of helicopters.

another reason why this is a trend i don't think we will be leaving very soon. >> synthetic drugs likely are harder for drug officials, anti drug officials, to find. a lot of it was about crops, fields, trying to find informants. without the crops in fields, how do you track down where you are making this? >> one of the things that i believe would be much more productive would be to pay much closer attention to the ingredients. now, profits to traffickers in mexico are all dependent on ingredients. not a lot of those ingredients are made in mexico. to control the ports is what you are most interested. in the ports, you know, that is where you get access to the world chemical market. i believed those ports, the

ports of mexico city, also shipping ports, are places where an intense amount of collaboration for countries would be enormously, could be enormously productive. right now there is very little. >> let me not forget to let you, our viewers, join into this fascinating conversation. once again we will open up special lines for this conversation about the fentanyl crisis in the united states. so, if you have been impacted by fentanyl, whether you've taken it, whether you have a relative, friend, family member who has been impacted by it. we want to hear from you. the number if you've been impacted by fentanyl is 2027488000 we also want to hear from our medical professionals. you are the front line in the drug overdose death if you are a medical professional nurse,

e.r. if you drive an ambulance, we want to know what you are seeing out there for our medical professionals your number is 202-748-8001, if you don't fit either one of those categories but you still want to get into the conversation we will open up an airline for everyone else 202-748-8002 once again, if you've been impacted by fentanyl 202-748-8000, if you are a medical professional, 202-748-8001 everyone else, 202-748-8002. keep in mind you can always text us at 202-748-8002 -- c-span and on facebook at c-span.com -- for sam, let's talk specifically about drug overdose deaths in the united states. i'm going to put p on screen from national institute landry argues.

this is what they are saying. overall drug overdose deaths more than 106,000 d overdose deaths reported in 2021 death involving synthetic opioids other than methadone, primarily fentanyl, continue to 70,601 overdose deaths reported in 2021. those involving stimulants, including cocaine, and psycho stimulants with abuse potential, primarily methamphetamine also continue to increase with 32,500 overdose deaths in 2021. put those numbers in perspective for us. is this getting out of control? >> the previously i would say the record with around 72,000. i'm not sure are the number right now. you saw what those numbers

reflect. a function of supply that is -- those reflect what happened during covid. the truth is the traffic from mexico has covered the united states. both of those drug by the time covid hit. a lot of people were isolating. they were recovering from drug addiction. they tell you from recovery in drug addiction do not isolate. well, that is what everyone had to do. a lot of people relapsed. a lot of people -- when they relapse, they began using again, the drugs on the street were fentanyl -- a lot of that is a combination of covid, and the coast to coast coverage of the supplies from mexico that have -- by the time covid hit. >> for some of us who do not exactly know what this is, explain what fentanyl is, why

it is so popular. >> i don't believe it's popular i think it is, again, a function of supply and demand. people are not demanding to be hooked on fentanyl. fentanyl, it is important to understand, fentanyl is a great drug, when it is you surgically. i had to have a -- they gamy fentanyl. it is a revolutionary anesthetic. it doesn't make you nauseous. you come in and out of anesthesia very quickly. it is easy to manipulate if you are a paramedic or our doctor, what have you. it is extraordinarily potent. so, in the hands of surgeons and anesthesiologists it is great. and the hands of the underworld, of course, it is an absolute catastrophe. i do not believe it is technically correct to say it is popular. it has been laced into the drug

supply in various ways. lately, of course, in the form of counterfeit pills coming out of mexico that look like a xanax or a percocet or what have you. people use it think it is something else. you think it's cocaine, you think it's methamphetamine. it may well have those drugs in it but with the fentanyl included in it, eventually, it addicts those people. and then and addictions starts. i demand starts. then a demand starts without supply. what is not the way to think about addiction. people are addicted, they have to have it at that point. but they did not start out standing in line saying, yes, i want my fentanyl. >> which brings me to this question, sheer capitalism? if you are a drug dealer, why would you want to give your

customer something that is going to, possibly, killed them? something that keeps them from buying more drugs. >> that is a very good question. part is it has to do with mexico. ghana mexico at the people who make fentanyl those who struggle there is no control. so they are making at, they just want to make their money making the stuff. the smugglers want to make their money smuggling the stuff. there is no board of directors saying, hey we're coming off our customers let's think long term at the local level here people who already were thinking about the money the idea of thinking about whether not people die is maybe secondary, number one. a lot of folks are selling it to make their own habit. that is a big part of it they are pushed by their own addiction the idea that this might kill somebody is, i think, secondary to making sure they

get their habit satisfied everything all day there are a lot of economic reasons. if you put fentanyl and cocaine cocaine customer bashing interest week, maybe. i've taken -- the put fentanyl into. it pretty soon, if that person doesn't die, pretty soon that is indefensible. they're going to buy for me everything all day. no vacation. sometimes several times a day. it impacts them as a customer -- even though it does kill along the way that highly addictive nature of it means that, eventually, you will get more customers, not fewer. >> we are also hearing a lot about math nowadays. what is the difference between math and fentanyl? >> matt is a stimulant it is also a synthetic, made from nothing but chemicals but it is a stimulant, keeps you up keeps you wired. fentanyl is a depressing like all the other opioids like heroin et cetera.

methamphetamine is a part of the story, as. wildly enormously parts of fentanyl have been matched down in mexico by the enormous supplies of methamphetamine. we are living in historic times historians will tell you that our drug use goes from fentanyl -- sorry, stimulants to depressants back to stimulants it is a cycle of 10:15 years those cycles now have been abolished by the massive supplies of these drugs coming into the country. now, at the same time, people are making math and fentanyl. selling the math and the fentanyl on the streets. the same people using the meth and fentanyl together. there is no cycle anymore. it is really a historic change that we are in the middle of. matt has its own issues. fentanyl kills you, matt has shown itself to be particularly,

extraordinarily, potent. stuff that is coming in from mexico. driving people to symptoms of schizophrenia. very pronounced, very difficult and once you have stopped. it takes a very long time to get out of that. >> let's let some of our viewers take part in this conversation. we will start with russell who is calling from west harrison, new york. russell has been impacted by in -- russell, tell us your story. if you have any questions, get into it. >> i will, thank you. fentanyl killed my cousin, douglass in 2012 at the age of 53. he was an experience heroin addict. a great person. he didn't know how to measure the amounts. i think it really starts living in a country where people are so miserable because a are in a country that exploits violence and then asked why we shoot up schools. i would like to say something. in the 80s, we had cracked. they used to put it on tv. here's what it does, here is

how it's made. here's how you buy. it don't use it. i want to ask sam, you said yourself, sam, it really killed me, this is a great drug. i want to say, sam, do you think that excessive attention that is being paid to this drug makes it worse? >> no, i do not. i think the lack of attention -- i want to be clear, it is a great drug, i think i said this, but let me say it again. it is a great drug when used properly. used surgically, in an operating room. by paramedics on the street. they know how to use it. fentanyl is a magnificent drugs. a wonderful tool. it has been so since it was invented in the 1960s. for decades now they've been using it -- i do not believe that excessive attention to this problem is exacerbating. and on the contrary i think the people are walking into situations they don't know what's going on. that is perhaps, one reason why your cousin may have died. i do not know. 2012 with a long time ago.

that was when fentanyl was just beginning in this country. the drugs they might be using might have fentanyl. i think this is the kind of thing that absolutely benefits from very aggressive attention. i think if anything we have clearly not been discussing -- i think most of the conversation has been taken up with covid. rightly so, this is a worldwide pandemic. nevertheless, we have not been talking enough about this, in my opinion. not letting people know. not letting kids in schools know, whatever you take has a significant risk of containing fentanyl if you're buying it on the street. i just had a conversation with my 16-year-old daughter. a few days ago, borrowing someone's leave. you can't borrow someone's medicine anymore. we don't know what is in there.

>> my daughter, also 16, has heard this every time she goes to a party. she has heard this far too much, i should say. sorry, caroline. but she's probably heard it way too much. i think that is a conversation that every parent needs to have now, absolutely. the idea is you can't trust, even if it is your best friend who you trust implicitly, that person may not know what here she possesses at that moment. you know? >> let's talk to ruth, calling from you slip, ohio. ruth is a registered nurse. ruth, good morning. >> ruth, are you there? i am. good morning. >> i have a different perspective. i see people blaming people from mexico and all this about bringing fentanyl over. how about we start taking care of ourselves? why are there more treatment

centers? getting people off of drugs and they can stay off drugs. stay in until they're off. why are you letting these people bring in this product that you are asking for? you don't have any control of your body. i know that people will say, wow, this is an american. you can't put me in a treatment center. you have lost the ability to think for yourselves. what are the alternatives? you stay and kick in. you die on the drug. or you go to jail. >> i think that is an excellent point. one that i think the era of fentanyl and meant that brought to the four. people in health care across the country have had to deal with this now. my own feeling is what you are finding, in parts of the country, some parts of the

country, including ohio, where you are finding experimentation without jail should be. up to now jail has been up these where. essentially, you throw away the key. people go that today, sit, watch tv for nine months. they get out. in kentucky, west virginia, massachusetts. ohio. you are seeing places experiment and develop recovery pods in jail. this is, i think, an extraordinarily important development. it is a place where you go to jail but you don't sit around. you don't sit sleep all day or play poker. you are actively involved in recovery. obviously, you opt into these pods. you are not forced to go in there. but while you are in jail this is an option. i really believe that this is one thing that fentanyl and matt has pushed on us. the longer you are out on the street, the much greater chance you have of dying. there is a saying, two things that are very important.

one fentanyl, synthetic drugs i would say, changed everything we have heard new about drugs. the other is that there are no such things as a long term fentanyl user. with heroin, i've known heroin addicts have survived 30, 40 years using heroin daily. with fentanyl that is not happening. people are dying very quickly. people do not last. you need a place, i think, where people can go and get off the street. away from the drugs and can't leave when the drugs demand that they do so. what you're seeing is a very interesting experiment in new approaches to jail. in part a lot of this is going on in area where the opioid epidemic started and then got worse. ohio, kentucky, places like that. in response to the demand that fentanyl is really making on people. >> one of our social media

followers had a question for you. i think you talked about this a little bit. i want to get you back in-depth. this person wants to know, shouldn't the government focus on the demand side of fentanyl, rather than the supply side? should possession of fentanyl becoming major felony? >> i think possession of fentanyl, when you are -- when you have the opportunity to go into a jail where there is now a recovery. this is a remarkable change, i think, in jails, i think that is absolutely what needs to happen. people in the street are going to die from this stuff. the synthetic drug is all about supply creating demand. it is incorrect to think that the person buying one of those pills thinking it is adderall wants to buy fentanyl. but if if you have fentanyl on and then pretty soon you are a fentanyl addict.

these drugs are so prevalent, so in our face now. so in the face of people who are on the drug that it is creating demand in many, many, different ways. the focus has been on demand. but i really think that the fentanyl and mid-era changes that. >> that would be my next question what do you see as the major differences between the heroine, crack, coltrane era and the fentanyl and matt era? >> as strange as it may sound, those drugs you first mentioned. crack, cocaine, heroin, or more forgiving. there was an opportunity for recovery that frequently is squelched by fentanyl. i was speaking with a man who runs a homeless shelter out los angeles who, himself, was addicted to crack. was on the streets, only, this

back in the early 90s. the hotel and i was addicted to crack a living on the street i still had something within me that said get out of this. move beyond this. a family structure that wanted him back in that kind of thing, that was part of a. it was awful within him he fell. he said i've seen matt just sweep through like a hurricane into the skid row area of los angeles and other places. what i am pretty clear on is that matt squelch is that little core within units of, get out of this. this is not where you should be. it shreds people's ability. that is what i find with fentanyl. it will drag you to symptoms of schizophrenia. out of your mind. separated from all reality. fentanyl will kill you. that is what we are seeing a lot of time on the street. it is a determinative in

conference here in d.c. that is why i have in d.c.. the hand for raved all through the conference. what are you seeing? fentanyl meant? yes. this is what we are seeing all across the country now. >> i want to play this for you. my question is, what happened during the pandemic? earlier this month on washington journal professor noah krawcheck, a member of the nyu center for opioid epidemiology and policy offered her explanation of why fentanyl became more available during the covid pandemic. here is what she said. >> there are a few different reasons. the way that the illicit drug market works is when there is disruptions to a drug supply, but there is still demand, still a lot of people who have opioid addictions or use disorder, the medical time that we call it, people will continue to seek out opioids.

what happened during the pandemic is there was a lot of disruption and drug supply networks. just like there was disruption of supply of everything during the covid pandemic. fentanyl became an alternative that is cheaper, because it is more potent it is easier to mix in. you need lower doses of it. that is why we are seeing increases in fentanyl availability. importantly, also, when we tried to crack down on certain types of drugs in our drug supply, that often leads to the emergence of new drugs. that is what we saw in terms of the emergence of fentanyl as far as its alternative to heroin in its apply. that is what we are experiencing now. >> first, i want to know, do you agree with her? >> no. >> why? >> some of that was correct. the truth is was fentanyl with nationwide by 2019.

by the time covid hit fentanyl was all over the country. i don't -- i think, you know, it starts in 2013, to 15. in the states where the opioid hit first ohio, indiana, kentucky, west virginia. by the time 2018 rolls around it is in the hands of the mexican trafficking world. they are producing quantities of is that surpass anything. first two is coming in from china in small packages. by 17 and 18 the supplies are exploding. that is when you begin to see the arrival of these counterfeit pills with fentanyl in them. in california the first mass overdose of fentanyl within 2018. after that, while before covid hit, fentanyl was everywhere. it got worse with covid. the supplies kept coming, and so on. people were isolated, and

someone. i do not believe that it happened during covid. it was already a fact. in portland, maine. speaking at a source i had up there. they were already addicted to -- made addicted to france and all, he was a heroin addict, by the spring of 2020. fentanyl was pretty much all he could get. >> one of our social media followers wanted to bring this out. i wanted to see if you think he is correct here. fentanyl became widespread only after the rescheduling a pain match from schedule three to schedule to. the solution to remove payments from overly restrictive use. >> look, i think that fentanyl became popular -- having very little to do with this kind of stuff. tangentially, coincidentally, it could have something to do with that. i think that this was something

where gradual realization, by the mexican traffickers, that this was the future of drugs. that this was a synthetic heroin, essentially. they began to figure this out. they saw that this was enormously profitable, easier to make, all of these benefits for them. they began to make enormous quantities of the stuff. they began to cover the country. that is, essentially, what has happened in the last five or six years. there are other things that have helped it along but certainly, to me, it feels very much like they began to make enormous, what i would call, fentanyl in meth gold rushes down in mexico over the last six years or so. everyone is piling up making it, making it. you see these enormous supplies. the supplies are now sent across the country. anybody who doesn't understand, it seems to me strongly and clearly but anyone who doesn't understand the role of profit

and ease of making profit and reducing risk to the mexican trafficking world, it's going to miss it. that is my feeling. >> all right. let's go back to the phone lines. let's start with paul. i'm calling from new york city. paul, good morning. >> hi. so, a couple things. first of all i'm reading an bloomberg story that the opioid settlements have actually landed to lower supplies, budget amid supplies, of adderall and other prescription schedule e restricted drugs because these settlements called for restrictions in order to avoid overprescription. an example of a side effect that can happens from these efforts to restrict drugs. not very carefully. i think there are a couple things we should think about, as well. first of all, these drug

organizations are very resourceful in terms of finding ways to obtain illicit drugs and manufacturing and what have you. the idea that you're going to stop the chemicals coming from china, wherever they may be coming from, to mexico, is extremely questionable. i think the idea that you'll be able to restrict guns coming from america, solving the violence situation mexico, again, these gangs are very resourceful. they will buy them from the ex military. they will manufacture them themselves. maybe additional costs but they are very resourceful. i think that we have to think about this thing in ways that are more insightful and more innovative. simply just trying to take care of the current problem through law enforcement mechanisms because, basically, they will get around. sometimes in a worse way.

this is extremely serious. you mentioned it before. people aren't buying drugs that they think are something else. fentanyl is showing up in all sorts of things. it is making things worth. fentanyl is worse than heroin, worse than cocaine. the idea of -- people need to think of this providing more access to these drugs. more controlled regulated fashion and simply trying to come up with a magic bullet to stop the current problem. >> i would say, yes. very thoughtful comment. thank you, thank you very much. i really appreciate it. i would say they'll, first of all, there is no magic bullet. we have also been working in an environment in which both countries have, essentially, advocated their essential roles and all of this.

in mexico's case, the corruption is endemic really serious. i lived in mexico for ten years. i wrote two books about mexico. i know it fairly well. i would say that the corruption is a very severe problem. kind of -- there are parts of the mexican government that were instrumental in forming the cartel world that we now know in the 19 80s. i have to say though that the mexican drug wars began in the absolutely crazy savage way that they have been going in 2005. one year after our assault ban lapsed. our saucepan last win from 94 to 2004. 2005 when that opened,, all of a sudden the trafficking war down in mexico exploded.

they have gotten worse and worse ever since. assault weapons have, clearly, been from the united states clearly their opponent choice. might they find it somewhere else? they might well. but to think that they would have a much more difficult time finding such a ready supply of the guns that are trafficked daily across that border down to mexico. >> there is no magic bullet. i completely agree with a collar on that. but, just because there is a lot of different solutions doesn't mean that we need to back away from the =t7■law enforcement one. i think we have done enough of that. the country's inability to collaborate together is a major part of what, the root of this problem, i think. >> let's talk to frank calling from spanish fort, utah. frank, good morning. tell us a little bit about your

experience, the impacts of fentanyl in other drugs. >> hi. i am 76 years old, i am not proud of this but i started using heroin in the 70s, the early 70s. i have used it on. the last time i used it with around 2005 or six. i now live in utah. this is a rural area where i live. salt lake city is north of here. that would be the main place where one could acquire i.e. hard drugs like heroin. from the 70s on to know even now and east to be where you couldn't even get heroin sometime. around in the 80s i saw the mexican influence come in. it brought in the heroine --

became more cut and you could just -- you know, a heroin user wants what he wants. he wants the heroine. not the cut. he can tell the difference. i think -- i want to make two comments. one, i think that we need to consider that fentanyl has been introduced -- this has been covered already. i'm sorry to go over this again. i think fentanyl was introduced as a cut in a way to save money by the producers of heroin. i agree with the commentator here that fentanyl is, you know, being used for economic reasons than you have younger users who are familiar with the old, actual, hair when. probably don't know the difference. but the other common i wanted to make was i think we have

underestimated the effect that -- and i don't mean to be racist or anything, but the mexican cartel influence up here is salt lake it's not that big of a city. i used to run with the people up there. it would seem to be pretty easy to around the mouth. but nothing ever happens. you never hear of a big buster anything. i don't know what is going on with the. i hope this helps with the conversation. >> i'm not sure how to respond all of what was just said. i would say that i've met many people, like frank, previously when it was working on my first book. folks who have spent years of using hand when. it is very, very, comment. that is changing. you are not finding people using fentanyl for a long time. i would say it is a rare thing

to find someone who has been using fentanyl for three years. you get into treatment, you get away from it. you get help, and separation from it or, sadly, you end up dying. . >> something i've noticed in this conversation, originally when we were talking about fentanyl, in the past, it was fentanyl in china. now we are talking, mostly, fentanyl in mexico. >> let me set this up. house speaker kevin mccarthy is slamming the administration for allowing fentanyl to come across the southern border, with the republicans continuing concern over the southern border. in fact, i want to show a little bit of kevin mccarthy talking about this at the southern border. >> i that and listened to community leaders. i heard stories from the sheriff. his jail was only 5% full.

arresting individuals, americans, who were helping illegals come across. now it is 45%. no fentanyl many comes in. i listen to mayors, representing both parties, fearful of what is happening in their city. high speed chases, challenges that they see coming across. the fear that you have in a county that the mexican cartel is the biggest employer. you don't feel safe in your own nation. the saddest part about all of this, the mexican government does not know which of their citizens are leaving their country. the american government does not know who's coming into our country. there is one entity who knows both, this and a lower cartel. they know exactly who is coming across, and who is entering. they also know what is in the backpacks, the drugs they kill americans. today, more than 300 americans will be poisoned and died from fentanyl. you are looking at a place where much of it comes through.

tomorrow there will be hundreds more. that is the equivalent of an airline crashing. if an airline crashed in america every single day, by the third day the entire nation wake up and say, we need to fix the problem. well, i promise you this. the new majority in congress, we are going to fight to fix this problem. no longer will the democrats be able to ignore the issue and act like it is not happening. we will have hearings on the border. it is the responsibility of all members to attend. those who come to testify will come from both sides of the aisle. they will tell the truth of what is happening, just as we heard today. this has got to stop. it starts with the secretary of homeland. stop lying to the american public. tell them the truth of what is happening. changed back the regulation that we had before so our border can be secure.

>> okay, so, what does border to curate he have to do with fentanyl? what should the u.s. government be doing to stop fentanyl from coming in from mexico? what should we be asking the mexican government from doing? a couple of things, just responding to that clip. it is true. a lot of what the speaker is discussing in describing there is true. i mean, this has gone on since the trump administration, you know? not like all of a sudden it just started happening. again, as i say, i believe that fentanyl reached national coverage by 2020. to make this into a partisan issue, yeah, i would say there is significant amounts of blame to go around i'm not sure how the republicans can say it is one party is to blame. part of that, yes, we blew it

to. anyway, i do believe that a lot of what can happen, when companies countries collaborate, uconn dissolutions that were not available to consider when people were so isolated. it does require that this week, a very sad thing happened. i was very disappointed in, that's an american. a contingency of mexican officials, and many of them cabinet officials in the mexican administration. presidential administration, came to the united states. came to washington. they were met by a security adviser to the president. no cabinet officials from our side met with them. these types of meetings are crucial to developing future solutions -- >> they ought to be natural. we should have been doing this for years.

since the time i have lived in mexico, and before i have never seen and this kind of thing where we neglect the mexican relationship we don't think of it as an important one not an important one to send 45 counted officials for meetings with mexican cabinet officials. for me is a very sad moment. i was very embarrassed as an american i am very positive feelings for mexico of over positively around the country in many ways i have thought this is the kind of meaning we need to come together to each other with mature specht. he began to do this other natural kind of thing no matter what else is happening in the world, the big issue, the relationship between mexico and the united states remains one of the most important relationships we have with any other country in the world. equal to japan, equal to that we have with the united kingdom, i think. oldone of our social media

followers brings up what used to be the old standby for taking care of the drug problem. i wanted to run this by you to see if this works for meth and fentanyl. is it the social media followers who say the real answer to legalize these drugs? to ensure that people can access substances that are predictable in both potency impurity, along with safe places and paraphernalia? if we legalize fentanyl in math, well that and the problem? >> well, this whole problem starts with drugs. i mean, from that you can gain certain lessons that, i believe, are cautionary tales about legalizing drugs. we allowed private businesses, pharmaceutical companies, to promote, sell, market, aggressively promote, legal purse corruption narcotic pain

opioid pain killers for 15, 20 years. i will say this, my response is always this, i do not believe that, in this country, we have the cultural dna that will allow us, as a country, to put in place the regulations, the limitations, the constraints on private business that will allow us to legalize drugs maturely, as an adult, in an adult way, cautiously, slowly, humbly. whenever big business wants to get involved, we bow and say, okay. we are doing that with marijuana now. it is amazing to me, in the time of climate change, we have a laws across the country that allow for the sale of endure grown marijuana. marijuana grows perfectly in the sun. the carbon footprint of indoor ground them often is

catastrophic. there are laws that say, it is okay to grown indoors and sell it like that. why? because people want to make a lot of money. to me it is part of our dna. some parts of it are very helpful the promotion can be a good thing in many ways. when it comes to drugs, i don't see that we have the cultural ability to say no t. two large congregations of money, power, lobbying, et cetera et cetera. you saw that. the opioid epidemic innings a classic example of that. >> let's go back to our phone, lines let's talk to more of our viewers. we'll start with shakir, from newark, new jersey. shakir, good morning. >> yes, hi, good morning, fellas. i guess i just want to talk about the humidity aspect. we really haven't discussed that. i'm a young man. i have a son.

snow has touched me tough. i just ordered working a bizarre meze shunned as an outreach coordinator and we were doing an event for women. and you know, it was about empowerment, women empowering each other. and i was glad to see how women were able to encourage each other to do a lot of challenging -- so the event was over, and i'm leaving the office and i make a right and i work right downtown. there was lady dead from overdose, a caucasian lady in her 40s. and it was just so sad to see her. somebody was trying to help her, but it almost felt like they didn't really want to touch her. and after, covid the whole distance thing, we really can't even be close and personal with one another. it was just so sad to see her clothes a little disheveled, exposing herself. and she is away from her family,

no one around her to care for her. she is alone. it is like 4:30 in the afternoon, you know. and it's in a bank parking lot. it's a charter school right, they're the kids are standing over her like, the trauma that people are dealing with and it is like, who talks to the kids about this? what they had to see. when i hear an ambulance now, i used to think there was gunshots, now you just think it is an overdose. so i guess that's how it's affecting me. >> that's a very powerful image. and one i think many americans across the country have the company quaint it with. people on the street, strung out, slumped over, who knows if they're dead or not when you pass by them. again, i think one of the key parts about this drug in particular is just how powerfully they squelch users

instinct for self preservation. it allows us to survive and live. but, on the street, these drugs, you can see this on the street very clearly. no matter how cool the temperatures, are no matter how violent the street life is, no matter how much you're being beaten or pinned out or whatever, it doesn't appear that people have possessed that instinct for self preservation. then you find people dying on the streets. i think many people across the country and, in particularly in cities, i think it sums moral rural towns to and suburbs and what have you, you see it as well. it becomes almost a hardening. people wonder, what is behind? this why is this happening? so the image that you described, it's very powerful and it's part of the american landscape right now. >> we talk about fentanyl, we have talked about mid. the white house last week

declared xylazine, an animal tranquilizer known as tranq as an emerging threat for the united states. tell us what xylazine is. >> it was invented by -- in 1962. never approved for human use, only four veterinarian, it's a sedative for animals. it's been basically confined to that use for a lot of years. now it's being found mixed almost always with fentanyl. we were just having this conversation, this addiction medicine conference i was attending in -- a few miles from where we are sitting. still, not a lot is known about why and who is doing this and -- but it is being felt first on the east coast, philadelphia area it has been quite -- camden, et cetera. other places, i think it's gradually spreading a little bit.

one possibility -- what was clear to me, and i am learning along with everyone else, this is very new. but one of the things that people were saying, four or five toxicologists on this panel, they say we don't know a lot. we're still figuring this out. so that is where we stand. one of the things that i found interesting, was that it seems that xylazine may have the effect of worsening the withdrawal symptoms when you don't use it -- when you don't use fentanyl. >> it makes fentanyl worse. -- >> the paint, their withdrawals, it makes it worse. it also may, and i'm going to be very careful because there is still, again, people don't know a lot yet but it may also make it more difficult for you to overdose. now, if those two are true, and there were some suggestion that they were but still, this is early stages. everyone is still kind of groping for answers on this. we want to be very clear about that. it would be a remarkable conversation --

combination of drugs. it would make it be very difficult for you to quit because the withdrawals are so fierce, much more fears, and you would never dicey -- never die, you would just deter overdose in some cases. so it make it more likely that you will continue to live to be a user. so it might be perfect -- this is the takeaway that some of us had when we left that part of it. now, again, all of this could be up for review. and more knowledge and more information, we don't know. yet but if it's keeping people from overdosing and making it far more difficult for them to quit, it may be that it's the perfect combination if you are a trafficker for fentanyl. >> i'm sure we will be talking about it again in the future. let's see if we can get a few more colors in before the top of the hour. let's go to ruth who is calling from california. ruth, good morning. >> good morning.

please don't cut me off, because i have several things i would like to bring up. >> ruth, we have five minutes left. you're gonna have to move fast. >> okay. public health issues in general involving guns, and their commitments -- cartels maintenance of power, the manufacture of, guns the united states, the direction they're moving across the border into mexico, and the maintenance of power using guns by the cartels. that is not a -- whether the border is, quote, open or which direction it is -- >> ma'am, i just want to say, i think we've already talked about that to some degree. a rodent op-ed column in the washington post that suggests that this is a major front that

we need to address as a country in the united states. given the readiness of supply of those guns. we're seeing them in the mass murder that are happening every two weeks now. but i would say that the ready flow of guns south is clearly what is allowing the trafficking world the impunity, helping them enforce the impunity with which they then produce these quantities of drugs that are now all over the country and in cheaper prices than ever. >> let's talk to lonnie, who is calling from salisbury, north carolina. lonnie, good morning. >> hey, good morning. look, i notice that -- and i don't get me wrong, a lot of white republicans, the first thing they say is it's coming from china, and now it's coming from mexico. it's, like they can make up their mind birth coming from. but let me tell you where it's coming from, it's coming from within. if they've got matt labs, here

they've got crack labs here, i come they not have fentanyl labs? >> part, or me i'm sorry. i just want to say that -- we have a few more colors, we don't have any more meth labs in this country. the math coming from mexico's outcompeted. the ability locally to make methamphetamine. virtually all of our methamphetamine is now coming from mexico because they have enormous access to extraordinarily large quantities of ingredients. much cheaper than any local guy can make. so i think it's really -- basically, this is coming from mexico. >> what about fentanyl? is there fentanyl labs in the united states? >> not the i am aware of. there may be pill presses, you making pills with fentanyl. but my impression is now that it's coming from -- and i don't think there was much confusion about china. initially, a lot of the stuff was coming from china. sold on the internet.

sold by chinese chemical companies mailed through the mail. that was a small amount. relatively speaking, it couldn't cover the country with that. but now, the mexican trafficking, world with their quantities through these ports, the ingredients they're getting at the port in mexico city are getting the stuff. and that is what -- this is where the supply explodes to national levels. but as a, said this happens, contrary to some of the speakers saying, -- i think the speaker ought to say, we blew it too. this was happening during the trump administration. >> final minutes, is there anything we could or should be doing to stop the fentanyl and mid-crisis? >> look, i think this provides a golden opportunity for an impressive at a collaboration between the two countries involved. regardless of what you think about how well it can work, i

think that we had not tried that never. and so, i think it is such an emergency, so severe, from crisis comes opportunity. and i think that's what we need to understand from this. so next time mexico send six cabinet officials appear to washington, i would hope there would be six american cabinet officials there to meet them. to develop that connection. and with it, it's simply never been developed. i think, to me, you could go on for. hours the whole book -- i just think that now we have an amazing opportunity to develop that kind of relationship with mexico that we have always knew to have and -- the situation between the two countries requires it. >> we would like to thank sam kiona's, author of the least of us, two tales of america and hope in the time of fentanyl

and myth. sam, thank you so much for being here. we hope you will join us again soon. >> i hope so too. today, christopher wray testifies on the presidents 2024 budget request for his agency. for the house appropriations subcommittee. live at 1:30 pm, eastern, on c-span 3. c-span now, our free mobile video app. or online at c-span.org. >> you're looking at the constitution of a review, the main thing you should focus on our trust imbalances. you are absolutely going to need to know how different branches can limit each other. and then you really can't go wrong with a bill of rights because you know in the scotus comparison question you are going to be asked about a court case that almost definitely is going to be written somewhere in the bill of rights. >> are you listed in preparing for the advanced placement u.s. government and politics exam? t your notes, ready to tune into washington journal live saturday at 9 am eastern for our annual graham for the exam. or we will take your calls,

texan tweets on questions about the test. joint social science teacher, sunshine kappa lucy from -- who will take your questions on the continent structure of this year's exam. watch washington journal's annual crime for the exam special. live saturday 9 am eastern on c-span's washington journal. it's been a half century since the last american combat soldiers left vietnam. in 1973, and saturday, live, on american history tv, on c-span two, what a day long conference from george washington university. looking, back 50 years at the end of the vietnam war. beginning at 9 am, eastern firsthand accounts and analysis of the war from vietnam war veterans, journalists, diplomats, historians, and military leaders. speakers include veterans, former secretary of defense, chuck hagel, former nebraska senator, bob kerry. pulitzer prize winner, philippe

caputo. columbia university historian, leon white. vietnam war correspondent and author, peter oz ows. elizabeth becker, former u.s. ambassador to vietnam,raymond bkhardt. and former life and time magazine photo journalist, mark godfrey. the end of the vietnam war, 50 years later. live saturday 9 am eastern from george washington university. on american history tv, on c-span two. book tv, every sunday on c-span two features leading authors discussing the latest nonfiction books. at 8 pm eastern, former bridgewater associate ceo and 2022 u.s. candidate outlines his vision for a better future for america with his book, superpower in peril. at 10 pm, on afterwards, david jim, author of mud street reflects on her families american experience across five