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including spark light. giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> this is charles sigar with the government accountability office, she is a managing director for strategic issues for the gta. thank you for coming by >> thank you for letting me be here. >> we will talk about the high risk, as it's known as, before we start the conversation, expand the work for g.a.o. for those who don't know what you do. >> g.a.o. is sometimes referred to as the conventional watchdog, we evaluate federal programs, conducting financial audits, doing investigations, sometimes doing big protest, all of this

with an eye towards more effective and efficient government. we are objective, fact based, nonpartisan, and independent. and we make recommendations to federal agencies, as well as sometimes recommendations to congress to make government work better. >> and to that end, you put out something called a high risk list. how did this come about? >> this high risk list has existed for more than three decades, and it started in 1990 as a way to help focus congressional attention on an oversight agenda to call their attention to the areas that are at greatest risk of fraud abuse and mismanagement or in need of fundamental transmit. so we started the list in 1990, since that time, we have been issuing a new update at the beginning of every new congress, so that congress can be aware of what the core issues are that really command their attention. and, as we do, that we are highlighting areas that are

being added to the list, areas that are being removed from the list, and then for each of those areas, we are also showing what progress has been made. are they meeting the requirements that we set out, as the more work to be done, and within, that if we go to g.a.o..com, you can also see all of the underlying work that informs all of this. everything on the list, if you want to dive deep, there is a lot of detail there. you can see all of the facts and figures behind, it and you also can see all of the recommendations that we have made it to federal agencies, as well as areas where congress can take action to improve government operations. >> generally what gets a program on the list? >> there are a combination of factors that go into deciding what goes on the list. so these include both qualitative and quantitative factors. starting with the quantitative factors, it has to be something that is a billion dollars or more that is at risk of fraud worse or abuse, maybe an improper payment has already

occurred or is at risk of occurring, or, on the qualitative side, things that are at risk of threats to life, health, and safety, national defense, national security, as well as privacy. so looking at all of those factors and combination as well as our on going oversight of federal programs and insight, and then also foresight, for things that we think are on the horizon that congress should be paying attention to. that all goes into the determination of what is high risk area. >> some of the broad categories on this year's list, some of the broad ones, that it concludes the coronation of public health emergencies being on that list, enforcement of tax laws, management of human capital, the defense acquisition, and improving modernizing up -- the management of the federal prison system, and ensuring the nation's security. starting with that first one, when it comes to public health emergencies, what is this specifically covid related or were there other factors in you looking at this.

we also lived through public health emergencies over the last couple of years, and that is a partisan. this is an area that we added kind of out of cycle. so we add it in the middle of a congressional session in 2022, because we thought it was important for congress to be aware of this. we also want it to focus the agency's attention on this area. so in looking at the department of health and human services, both leadership of in ordination of public health emergencies as well as responses to recoveries from national disasters. this certainly is informed by the most recent experience of the covid-19 pandemic but it actually goes back more than a decade as we were looking at zika and ebola and other public health emergencies. >> as well there's responses to national disasters, where we saw the need for greater coordination both in the department of health and human services across the entire federal government, and then with state and local governments and private sector entities. >> the larger idea of waste fraud abuse, how does that directly relate then to looking

at the pandemic issue. >> looking at the pandemic, issue it plays out in a number of areas, and another area that we added kind of out of cycle in 2022 we add it to the high risk list, to the unemployment benefits, this of course is an area where we wish we had done a broad range of work on over many years. but there was really a spotlight on this program during the pandemic, because there were millions of people in need of unemployment assistance. so as that was happening, there were a lot of difficulties in providing the administrative operations for this federal state program to provide that assistance effectively and efficiently, and unfortunately, there was a fair amount of fraud along the way, were people who did not actually qualify for the benefits where receiving those benefits. so we added that to the list last year into thousand 22. >> apologies, i imagine that some of the response in these various agencies when they were doing this in the heat of battle ultimately they were sometime before we could put out things that we shouldn't

have. >> it's always attention, because of course, there was an emergency. so congress had provided the assistance in the agencies want to act quickly. but at the same time, you really need to build in that accountability at the onset, and have some kind of smooth certification system that requires documentation to ensure that the people who were the this assistance can get it and the bad actors, the fraudsters, don't receive them. >> in general, then how it has -- done if they put out money that has not been put out, what is the potential of getting it back? have they told you the potential there? >> it's ongoing, so we work closely with the agencies. we also work closely with federal agencies and people who are counterparts at the executive branch industries. and inappropriate, we also make referrals to law enforcement agencies. >> some fans have been recovered, some funds, unfortunately, probably will never be recovered, and these efforts are ongoing, but to identify fraud where it happens, but also to recover whatever we can as a federal government.

>> michelle sagar, here from the g.a.o. on the government accountability office. looking at the high risk list, you can find online, you can find it on c-span's website to if you want to look at some of those categories in the list. but if you want to call and ask your questions about what they've discovered, 202748 8000 for democrats. 20274 -- for republicans and independents, 202748 8002. and if you want to text us a question or comment, you can do that at 202748 8003. one of those other categories, it is getting a lot of discussion lately on capitol hill was tax law, and particularly the enforcement of tax law. what did the g.a.o. find? >> this is an area that was added to the original list in 1990 and it has remained on the list. it is important to point out that even for some of these areas that were charter members, if you will, there has been incredible progress in various ways over the ensue in decades.

so there are really two areas that we are looking. at one of them is the tax gap, which is the difference between taxes owed and taxes paid, and trying to narrow that gap, so the funding that is due to the federal government and then people file their taxes actually received. in the second area is identity theft refund from where people are claiming others refunds when they are actually not really their refunds. so we've been working with irs on a number of areas, including these, and we have a number of recommendations, the agency recently received news leadership, so he is in, place denny ruffles a place is the new commissioner of the internal revenue service. the irs also has a new strategic plan that is playing out as we speak, and then congress provided about 80 billion dollars to the irs to the inflation protection act, and those funds will help both fill gaps have been created through some budget crunches over more than a decade, so they've already been a 5000

people, they have plans to hire 5000 more this year alone. and as this is all happening, they're also working to implement jp's open recommendations. >> that second part of the fraud how does that generally work, what is discovered there. >> the refund fraud, there have been a number of efforts put into place. so for example, if you are a worker who has a w too, that becomes a little sooner than it does a couple years ago, and that then allows you to file for your taxes sooner than you might have been able to, say a decade ago. and that has been somewhat successful, another thing that is underway is as we have recommended, irs is taking action on this, but there is still more work to be done in terms of digitizing papers for -- and then that allows the return to be tracked as it goes through the review process. >> it's the first one as far as the tax cap, is this just a simple enforcement of finding people who owe the taxes and making sure they pay them? >> it is that, but it is also

things such as complex large partnerships where you have multiple entities that are part of a return corporate so it can be very complex, but it is also the individual tax filing as well. >> here for this conversation, our first call from you come from cornelius, cornelius is in louisiana. republican line. you are on with our guest, michelle sagar, of the government accountability office. go ahead. >> yeah, miss michelle. i used to work for the federal bureau -- i saw you had the federal bureau of prisons on your list. and essentially they abused me, along with the fbi. they set me up and everything. so what i want to know from the government accountability office is, they used their money to set me up. is there anything y'all can do? thank you pedro, thank you c-span. >> thank you for calling and thank you for that question. the caller talked about the federal bureau of prison system management, which is a new area that will be added to the list

this year. i'm sorry to hear what you have experienced, and you call attention to something that is part of the reason for the addition of the bureau of prison systems to the high risk list this year. and that is staffing challenges. and that creates issues for both the inmates as well as for the staff in the bureau of prison systems as far as their safety. so that is part of the problem, in addition to that, it is the programs to clear the persons that will make sure that as the prison mates are serving their time, there are opportunities in place for them to work towards their release and be able to become productive contributors to society. and knowing what works and what doesn't along the way. so our leader, the -- general of united states has met with a new bureau system, and having a leader in place, there were six leaders and six years, there is now a leader. she is committed to working

with us to move forward on these areas, and we look forward to working with the bureau of prisons as they implement our recommendations. >> there's a story about that in the new york times, one of the things that they highlight, that they say there's been no problem of hiring says the bureau presence, there is been 160,000 inmates 162 prison camps employing a workforce of about 3400 -- 34,000 people who often request in stating county corrections workers. >> the healing capital issues are certainly substantial for the bureau of prison systems, and in fact, for 22 of the 37 areas on the high-risk list, skills gaps are part of the reason why this area is on the high-risk list. so it affects all sectors of society, it also includes both hiring as well as retention. as well as just helping people understand what positions are available and that is at the center of government, both for their own human capital challenges, but also for other

federal agencies about what they could do to hire and retain people who are dedicated to public service. so this is an area that we, again, have seen progress in. there is a director at the office of personal management. so that is good news. there is that leadership commitment in time, but then going forward. we will continue to work with them as they are working on their own human capital challenges, as well as working with federal agencies across the government as they are trying to meet their hiring challenges. >> let's hear from john, johnson minnesota, democrats line. john. >> two things, i am from a rural a district, and, of course, many farmers here. when the claude ppe -- were being given out during the pandemic, some of the farmers were splitting their farms up so they could have the mother got 20, 000, the father got 20, 000, so the son got 20,000.

some of that money was to go to payroll, then they use that money to pay each other as employees. and, furthermore, the bankers told these people, and they are good republicans, conservative people, bankers told them, do not pay those loans back. they won't come after you. so i think that was a huge front going on. and second of all, farmers are getting, every year, every farmer in this country has $30 paid by the tax payers towards their top crop insurance. $30 per acre. you sew something with $10,000 per acre, which is not uncommon anymore. $70,000 right off the top. and doesn't matter the fact that we have not had three years of the highest commodity prices in the history of the united states. these guys are floating in money, and they are still being subsidized. >> we will leave it there, we will let our guests respond to

that. >> thank you for the call, i will respond specifically to the questions you raised about paycheck protection program, and there was also the economic injury disaster loan program. these are areas that were also very much focused on in collaboration with our other accountability partners. there is a pandemic a sponsor accountability, as well as the inspector general community across the government. and so, in a case, where you are others who are listening have noticed fraud, you can certainly reach out to g.a.o. at fraud myth at g.a.o..gov, or go to our website and you can find more information about how to report fraud similarly for example at usda the department of agriculture if there is a specific fraud issue, you can reach out to their inspector general and that will help begin the process to respond to this fraud, and to responsibly use taxpayer dollars. >> you talk about action plans for the agencies that tried to resolve these issues that you bring up. what makes a good action plan?

>> there are a couple of things. one is a part of the high criteria's we are assessing high-risk areas icat >> so we are needing that leadership commitment, and we make sure that the person at the top, and their team, are dedicated to initiating action. so you need to have capacity, that includes not only, leader but also some other staff that are at the agency as well as the funding in the technology. so that action plan needs to include goals, metrics, and you have to see whether or not you are making the progress overtime. so the final criterion that we use is demonstrated progress so leadership, capacity, action plan, that leads to include those metrics, milestones, goals, and they are monitoring all of that to hopefully, in the, and be able to demonstrate some progress. >> let's hear from frank. frank is in chicago. >> hey, good morning, quick

question, but thank you for learning about all this. i saw the geo d was on the list in a couple areas, particularly weapons, acquiring weapons, financial management. they never passed an audit, and they can't be audited. what happens to the report that you were doing when you're reviewing the department of defense, the pentagon, the state department? i kind of want you to know more into that action plan. because they spent almost a trillion dollars of our money every year up. with dod to acknowledge the actions that have happened and acknowledge what needs to happen. getting to a clean, financial audit remains elusive. that is something we are very much focused on that we raise with congress, we work with the department of defense on. another area is an area that has

been on the high risk list since its inception in 1990, that is dod weapon systems acquisition. it really gets down to the basics that are so important to any acquisition at any federal agency. performance, cost and schedule. when the costs are out of control, when schedules and goals are not met, that signals a problem. though progress has been made in a number of areas over the decades, given the scale of what the dod does and the number of evolving weapons systems acquired, it is an area that we remain focused on. host: a part of its is legislation such as acquisition reforms approved for 2016 2017 prompted the dod to take action to improve outcome systems that work taking longer to develop into costing more, performing at lower than anticipated levels. can you elaborate? guest: what you landed on is

something that happened when we issue the high risk list, it becomes a catalyst for action. it becomes a roadmap for congress to take action and conduct oversight, conduct congressional hearings, write oversight letters. in this case, congress passed legislation, which is sometimes necessary in order to prop the action or allow the action to happen statutorily. that is what happened here, to allow that action happen statutorily. that's what is happened here that is good news. what more needs to be done. >> what would be the recommendation? because you do make recommendations? what would you recommend on that front that. >> on that, front we are continuing to monitor the efforts that are underway. we also have a report that we issue every year looking at defense weapon systems across the board and so we can look forward to that about june july summer timeframe and in the midst of all of this i also would be remiss if i didn't

point out that this year we saw great success in terms of high-risk outcomes and so 16 of the areas on the list show progress and that's the most progress that we have seen in the eight years since we have used our current rating system. so, that's a good news story. in addition to that, we also measure financial benefits. since our last update in 2021, we were able to record 100 billion dollars in financial benefits. so, that's incredible. going back a bit further, from 2006 to 2022, we recorded 675 billion dollars in financial benefits resulting from actually taken high-risk areas. so, areas such as defense weapon systems, acquisition remain critically important and we will absolutely continue to focus on, that we also like to acknowledge that actions taken both by congress and the executive branch and we want that momentum to continue. >> there's a lot to this.

viewers, if you want to see more at g.a.o..gov the specifics when it comes to the high risk report and the sub categories there to. if you want to check it out of the website it's g.a.o..gov. let's hear from anthony in staten island republican -- we're on with our guest. >> how are you? i don't know about your, job you must be real busy. i have two quick questions. we know this administration lacks common sense and streets rights when it comes to money, but number one, where is all the unspent covid money that hasn't been spent. number two, when they put their budgets before congress, they always allocate money for certain things that budget. we all know that's not spent on those things. do you follow that? i mean, if i say i'm going to spend $500 million on a certain program, i take the money i don't spend it on that program and on other things, isn't that sort of fraud? >> thank you for those questions because those allow me an opportunity to talk about

two additional things that g.a.o. does and one is in terms of the covid spending. we have responsibility under the cares act and the related pandemic legislation to follow the money. so, looking across the whole of government all of the funds that were appropriated for pandemic response and recovery and to see what agencies were doing with those funds. so, we have issued those reports and continue to do so and those often served as the foundation for additional congressional oversight. so i mentioned the phrase following the money, certainly we follow the covid money. there's also an infrastructure investment in jobs act that was passed recently. we have a number of mandates under that act to follow the money and then next week we will issue a product that we have issued a number of years called the nation's fiscal health report, which really looks holistically at where we are as a nation in terms of our revenues and expenditures and what the long term outlook is. so, we'll continue to do that and we do work with agencies as

they are submitting their budgets to congress. congress calls on us to learn more about what they are seeing in those budget submissions and understand where there are targets of opportunity for increased efficiency. that's where they often lean on g.a.o. recommendations to facilitate their action in congress. >> when it comes to human capital, we just saw the biden administration make a call for people working at home from the pandemic largely to go back to their office. as any measure have been done about the impact of federal workers at home and how that has impacted overall efficiency? >> we do have some ongoing work, specifically on telework. we had previously done work on telework pre-pandemic and the current administration has urged to titles decisions to perform -- metrics. so if people need to say a customer service facing occupation, that they are then available to meet with the public and to make decisions

based on those criteria. we will continue to follow that as all of that plays out and it's individual agencies make their decisions about what their future operating posture is. >> let's hear from harold. harold is in florida. democrats line, good morning, you're next. >> good morning, michelle. i'm concerned with all the government agencies, whether it's federal, duty, state, or even county government. there is a structural weight situations that goes on and every single department in office where the budget is allocated in a year and that the money is not spent at the end of the fiscal year, each manager and director comes in and says we need to spend this money, otherwise we are going to be taking away for next year's budget. so, would you like and you -- do need a new chair or, we've

got to spend this money. there are some incentives set into every single government agency to use or lose the money rather than having an incentive. saving the nightly didn't need to use tuesday or duties. this is across every single agency i've ever seen and i just don't understand why this isn't addressed. >> that is an issue that g.a.o. has looked at the. end of the fiscal year spending and any that -- may exist for agencies to rapidly spend those dollars at the end of the fiscal year. so, that is something that we have completed were gone and will continue to complete work on as well as how agencies make their budget decisions and other related topics, such as unallocated balances. so, an obligation has been made, but there's a balance remaining in an account and so then what happens? so that's an important issue and one that fits into our overall consideration of fiscal health.

>> the scenario he described, is it true as far as -- ? >> it can, happen so part of what we do in some of our work is go up to federal agencies and understanding the timing of their decisions and what the reasons are. there have been some cases where we have had a continuing resolution in place pretty far in the fiscal year and so that then delays agencies decision-making as they're waiting for their final or appropriations, certainly in other cases you do see ramped up spending in the latter months of the fiscal year. so that is certainly an issue that we keep an eye on as we are doing our overall work looking at budgets. >> what is the size of the g.a.o. that is specifically committed to looking at this list and how long does it take to put together and what is involved in putting it together? >> so, this list is one of those kinds of projects that it's large, there are 37 areas that remain on the list at this point. it kind of never stops because there are underlying work that is informing all of the decisions that i talked about, that qualitative and quantitative makes of factors.

as we are lifting the-less, we also have other work that is underway. it is meeting with federal agencies to follow about our -- making sure that we touch each recommendation at least once per year so that we understand what is happening in the federal agency and what actions they are taking. g.a.o. as an entire agency a legislative branch agency, were just over 3000 employees located in washington where our headquarters is, but also 11 field offices around the country. >> let's hear from mike. mike in california, independent line. >> hi pedro, hi michelle, good morning. how -- most of my funder, he's absolutely right, it's kind of like -- i don't mean no disrespect, michelle, but you're -- when this elephant -- rampaging through our country. the government is way too large,

they do have incentives a former auditor and the private sector along time ago and that's the structural problem. but it's because they always spend the budget. it's got to be stopped, you've gotta come up, not so much with finding the guy who's got some money in a stronger, but you have to -- the government, if they're going to control this, they have to build an incentive to accomplish goals at more efficiently. they're always going to lead their budget because that's how next year's budget is set. it's instant damage to find the counting, but unless that gets changed. and now at this stage, our biggest risk with monetary policy is that we know it doesn't work. the government spending all this money is not helping our

people. >> okay, thank scholar. >> i'd like to use this as an opportunity to focus on what i think is a cause for hope and optimism across the government through the high-risk whisk. i thought about some of the areas that we added to the list this year, the bureau of prisons, unemployment insurance and hhs leadership last year. we also removed two areas from the list this year. what that reflects is our work with congress in the case of the pension benefit guaranty corporation, they provided additional funding for the multi employer pension program. that then help that program maintain solvency so that the solvency date is farther out in the future and that is one way that happens, our work with congress. and then the other area that was removed from the list this year is the 2020 essential census. in that case, we had worked very closely with the bureau of the census as they were conducting that essential. we've been quite clear when they were added to the list in 2017 that the ramp it cost

increases we had seen in prior decennial senses were not sustainable. since this was able to bend the cost curve, they now have procedures in place and a plan in place to monitor that spending for the 2030 decennial and they in fact responded to all of the items they mentioned as criteria to measure whether or not an air remains on the list. now, we don't walk away from these areas once we take them off the list. we continue to monitor, but i use those two examples of the areas where we worked with congress, we worked with federal agencies and we saw significant progress. then addition to that, as i mentioned, those 16 areas on the list that showed progress, that is a good news story as well as 100 billion dollars that we've seen in financial benefits since our last update two years ago. >> this is catherine in maryland, republican line. >> good morning. i'm a great believer in what you do.

my question is, and i was just a guess, he said in this before, at the defense department is elusive. i don't buy that. how could it be elusive when there's so much money being spent? i can't believe that that's not something we can get a hold of somehow. i know that congress doesn't really mind if we spend money, but nobody ever questions it. well i'm questioning if we can account for it. we're spending trillions of dollars to other places in the world and we don't know where it's going unless what's happened to it. i want to know what he means by elusive. thank you. >> well, thank you for raising that and that is something that we absolutely fundamentally agree on. our controller general is quite clear in the congressional hearings that he did when he testified before the senate on april 20th and then last week before the house oversight accountability committee that is not acceptable and that's why we continue to work with

the department of defense as we are seeking a clean audit opinion. so that is work that has been underway for a number of years, it is unacceptable and we will committed to making that happen. >> federal disability programs and geo writes that three of those largest programs managed by the social security administration of the veterans affairs department paid about 300 billion cash benefits the programs of the fiscal year 2021 to 20 million individuals. this adds that both agencies juggle to manage their workload to make timely decisions on benefit claims. can you elaborate? >> definitely. what that illustrates is some of those human capital challenges that are also in separate high-risk issues. they have both skills -- challenge filling positions to examine those disability claims as well as the appeals. of course, what that means is if you are someone who has filed for disability or you filed an appeal as that process is taking longer than it should,

you are waiting and you are in real need and that is a lot of what is happening there. with the veterans to pairs department as well as social garrett ministration, those are the two primary agencies that are responsible and similar to a number of other areas. unfortunately, during the pandemic those challenges increased those human capital challenges. and it is into that, part of the talent is that there are multiple programs across the federal government that are also focused on disability employment in some way. for example, there's an office of disability employment policy at the department of labor, but they don't have the same kind of authority that white house office would have. so, they're working across the government, but they don't have the same kind of leadership capability as they might if they were at the center of government. so, pulling all of that together and addressing those skills gaps as well as human capital and hiring challenges are all related to that high-risk area. >> let's hear from phil in

colorado, independent line we're just about out of time phil, but go ahead with your question or comment please. >> hi, yeah, i spent most of my career working on military bases. again, the rocky mountain area particularly colorado springs. the fraud, waste, and abuse is just rampant on these military bases. it's totally unbelievable but they waste and how it works. if they spend a little time on this basis they could see -- and i've often made the comment that i if i could have all the money go through a single person, and have him say the money or look at the budget, that person would walk out and just take 1%. they would block out of there every year as a millionaire. it's a ramp it, it's unbelievable, but especially at the end of the year. they spend like crazy just to waste it.

i don't know how you can say you've been doing a good job in saving all this money when it's not happening -- >> color, forgive me for that, but thank you for the call. >> so, the work is certainly not done. we still have 37 areas on the high restless, focused on the department of defense and part of the reason for that is because of waste fraud abuse and mismanagement. so, we continue this work, as i mentioned we never really stopped working on the high-risk list and we have ongoing work where we are engaged with the agencies, trying to get their action on the recommendations as well as consulting with congress as they're conducting some of their appropriations, today in fact in the sentiment we continue working with them as we encourage implementation of the recommendations and certainly for anyone who is listening who does have evidence of fraud, waste, or abuse, we would encourage them to consult fraud that at g.a.o. .gov or, in that case that you mentioned, the department of defense inspector general to report those issues.

>> michelle sigar with the government accountability office, strategic issues manager director g.a.o..gov is the website if you want to check out the report and other things. thanks for your time. >> thank you so much. >> today officials from the u.s. food and drug administration testify above an ongoing investigation into the agency's 2022 nationwide infant formula crisis response. they will take questions from members of the house oversight subcommittee. watch live at 2 pm eastern on c-span 3, c-span now, our sprained mobile video app, or online at c-span.org