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>> "washington journal" continues. host: david pepper served from 2015 to 2021. >> david pepper serving the chair of the ohio democratic party from -- he is the author of his latest book, saving democracy, our users manual for every american. david pepper, welcome back to the program. >> thank, you good to be with you again. >> he said that writing this book was a continuation of themes that you explored in your last book. laboratories of democracy. can you springboard that for us as far as why you wrote this

book? >> sure, laboratories aids laboratories of autocracy. it's all about how state houses are so gerrymandered, so raved that that's where so much of the attack on democracy is taking place. people who read the book enjoyed it but they say to me, oh my gosh, it's so disturbing to see what's happening in the states. i would skip to the and to get to solutions. i heard so much i thought i'll just write a book that is basically about what you can do about it. i'm sure your listeners agree what there is. but i heard one person say it. if all you do is watch tv and washington, you watch the meltdown in democracy all around the country. you are left with the impression there is nothing you can do about. it you can watch the agenda assignations or some campaign far away. in the point of this book is to say actually, the battle for democracy is happening all over the country.

which means it's where you live. it's literally where you live. blue state, red state, swing states. this book says if it's where you live, there something you can do about. it there are many things you can do about. it usually don't hear about those things. here is a book that will walk you through what you can do, how you can do. it even points you to sort of organizations. it might be helpful or best practices or people like you have done the same thing. i get a lot of stories about individuals who decided to take on a school board they were worried about or run for office in a district that had a competition. try to have it be a users manual people frustrated by the state of things can actually item that frustration. what should all happened. >> did you develop these principles from experiences you gain your former position as the chair of the democratic party there in ohio. where there are other things that help you kind of formulate how to go about this?

>> yeah, that's a real question. partly. partly things i learned that i thought i did well. others, lessons i learned about things that could've better. it's funny. as i rode laboratories of autocracy. people haven't read that, it really does walk through the problem. it's not about a few individuals in washington. it's what's happening in states and state houses. the way our country is designed, it's the states and state houses writing most of the rules democracy. not washington. as i wrote that book, i wrote it a lot about ohio where i'm from. sort of a case study of a problem. i talked to other states. i started to get emails. i started to exhumed calls all over the country with groups and people, individuals. i also learned a lot from those meetings about their stories and what they were doing. i took as many examples as it could've people who are really doing great things.

people adopting a state house. really helping candidates that get any attention. that made a difference in michigan and pennsylvania this last year. where the other people who are trying to figure out how to use a nonprofit to really engage voters who have been disenfranchised. people who are willing to stand up and go to that school board meeting and say we don't want you to ban books here. a lot of people who i met frankly since the last book who not only are inspiring but actually showing activism at the local level can work. it actually has to work we're gonna things around. a lot of his informed of those stories. i use these stories to make it accessible. readers see -- we don't have to wait for some u.s. senators to say they are some famous celebrity. there are everyday people all around this country doing things to live democracy. so i can do the same thing. a lot of it comes from interacting with people. even in this covid world. i've managed to meet all these

people who are doing great things. i use a lot of their stories as well as what i leaed >> using a soccer analogy in describing some of the strategies you apply. you write this in the portion saying first generation of more. someone or could you describe us -- generally assumed american democracies intact. that it's stable. look going on to write second, most on team d are booed by a second assumption. they're confident that their policies and preferred directions generally reflect the broader preferences of america's diverse majority. can you elaborate? >> yeah, i try and explain it. i think there are different battles with politics. this is not -- everything breakdown in america over party lines. i don't think this is party. there is a side that supports democracy and is willing to live with the results of a fair democratic system. this side does assume too often and for too long democracy is

automatically intact. this side assumes we've got good ideas. most people agree with that ideas. if we run, a strong election every two years for federal office, we're gonna win. that's their battle. there is a side such as one party i think straight a one party right now. they were studying -- they don't hide the ball. they actually are undermining democracy directly in states. that is literally what they're going after. they have generally a whole lot of views that would not win in a fair democracy. they're not popular. and -- abortion bans with no exceptions. it's something that probably 10% or few of your viewers agree with. doing nothing about the gun violence is something that 10% or fewer of going owners agree with. in order for this site to get -- it can't go out and have a bunch of elections on this. they would lose. instead, it's going into state

houses where they can gerrymander those state houses to keep in place of viewpoint that actually would not win an election. the reason is a soccer analogy, the second scientists -- is an offense and states all around this country. doing what i just described. were any state houses gerrymandering like in ohio and all the states. the other side is largely focused on federal elections and certain swing states. the second side, it doesn't respect mobocracy. they're on offense all the time. -- honestly not only is it not an offense, it's often on defense. it's allowing 50% for example of tennessee republicans who voted out those state reps. didn't have an election last year. they were not contested. there is one side on offense. the other side doesn't play defense. my theory, my argument is that's why it's losing.

as i mentioned in the book, my sons are nine and. six-day play soccer. they know why that team is losing. if one team is taking all the shots on offense, no one's even blocking the shots. asking for a better goalie isn't going to solve the problem. you have to go on offense and you have to block the shots being taken. i hope that's a very easy to understand model for why -- seems to be losing even when their wedding federal elections pretty regularly. >> our guest until 8:45. if you want to ask questions of the themes of his book that you heard, (202) 748-8000 for democrats, (202) 748-8001 for republicans and independents. (202) 748-8002. if you wish, you can sense the text message at (202) 748-8003. mr. pepper, it was newsweek that highlighted some of the events in statewide elections that might reflect themes that he would talk about in your book.

they highlight that in jackson florida, just recently, voters elected -- the city's first female mayor. she came to the contest as the underdog. running 32% of the vote. the republican daniel davis. they also point to pennsylvania where that special election gave democrats 102 seats needed to control the agenda. they're in the house of representatives. all take those events, at least partly them two themes in your book? >> yeah, absolutely. thank you, great question. and those are the frontline positions i'm talking on the book. those were good wins. that pennsylvania special election would determine the house majority of pennsylvania. which is a huge deal. here is where i write my book with optimism. that although the democracy has been outmaneuvered for a long time. it has been not on defense, loan offense for a long time. there are -- infrastructure in awareness growing that they have to

change their battle. those winds are part of that. just like last november, you saw the first time decades. it was a mid term where democrats have the white house. democrats are supposed to horribly in the state house and statewide elections that happened in that have a year. last november, you saw democrats pick up her michigan state house. the michigan senate. the pennsylvania state house which kept that special and have other big wins. you also saw election deniers who are running for secretary of state. all around the country. not a single one won in a swing state. they often underperformed other republicans who are on the ballot at the same time. you are starting to see. this is why i write my book with optimism. if we figure out and scale it up, you are starting to see this infrastructure buildup which doesn't only focus on a few federal races. of course, you want to win

senate seats in house seats. it's that's all you want, when the other side is using state houses to do all of their dirty work. you are not winning. those races, the pennsylvania by the way another warren their wisconsin supreme court win. only a couple of months ago. all around the country, people care about democracy. we're focusing on a supreme court ration wisconsin. they would've never thought of it before. people start to see these are the offenses that long term shape democracy. the federal government plays a role sometimes. that wisconsin supreme court which can stop gerrymandering. the state house in pennsylvania which can advance democracy or suppress it depending on who's in charge. these are the -- one way you know for too long we talk about this the wrong way. we often say this is the bench. as if the only value is that someday people here may run for

something else. this is the front line. it's not a bench. if people do a great job at state representatives protecting democracy or protecting rights in that state house. i don't care if they never run for anything else in their life. they're on the front lines of democracy in those positions. we have to start seeing it that way. operations on the other side, koch brothers, -- they don't view these positions as the bench. they view them as the most important part of their overall infrastructure. it's the part that shapes democracy in america for everybody. >> david pepper, our guest. the book again, simulacra c. users manual for every american. our first call is bernie. he's in kentucky. democrats line for our guest david pepper. bernie, good morning, you're on with our guest. >> good morning, david. really love the name of the book number one because i read a lot of future analysts. i really[÷hope it's going to --

-- sincere from ohio, i was wondering have you had any dealings with john -- governor and you have any thoughts about him. i've changed my party affiliation in 2015 just what could vote for him in the primaries. i was still gonna vote democrat anyways in the election. i had -- we could defeat trump in the primaries, we wouldn't have to worry about voting him in the general election. one other question. what would happen if the -- bible of third cardi party candidate came through and no one received 270 electoral votes. i want to ask somebody who might know that question. >> there is bernie and kentucky. starting us off. >> bernie, hey, thank you. great question. the first thing is i'm really glad you like that title. someone told me david, no one ever reads users many will. stacy and ali side so that worried me. i think for this topic, i

intentionally threw that in as a subtitle because i think most people are watching the frustration. oftentimes, when i watch tv. i'm thinking about those viewers. when it gets to the interview where the host says to the person st. amant seney. what can people do? they always say two things. vote and stand and talk about it. those things may be helpful. of course, and what you devote. there are so much more you can do. it's not that hard to do. it's not just helping someone 1000 miles away in a swing state. it's right where you are. the reason i use the title is to make it clear. i want to be clear. it's not just a user is manual with technical stuff. it is a book. i hope it's interesting to lead. and he's a lot of narrative to get you through it. in the end, really by the way for any, at the end of every chapter, i have a work sheet. everyone reading it can go

through their own life and figure out here is one way i can live democracy. here's another way i can have democracy. i never thought that being part of the food bank that i am a volunteer for it could have democracy. every single person who goes to that food bank should be registered to vote as they do so. or that homeless shelter or that iraq center. in the, book i try and give you the tools to walk through in your life. that's the point. the power i hope it's what that all are -- the waves rippling up. the building an ocean of power. we will save democracy if all of us find within ourselves a way to do more. it doesn't involve going to find new things. the point of the book is it actually involves mainly taking things into your life that you are already doing and incorporating lifting democracy into those things. the book tries to be a users

manual on how you can inventory what you are doing in life, or you, work where you go to church, your community. and figure out that in the sphere you wore in, there are so much you could do if you think about it. honestly, most people just don't think about it that way. john kasich, i think it's been a really interesting evolution. i think he represents a lot of people. john kasich, i'll be honest, he was pretty conservative when he started out as governor. obviously want to, good for him. i did not agree with him on most things. but he's evolved in a lot of ways. when i watch him now be willing to stand up and call out extremism, call out trump or something. i'm glad to see. it i think one of the problems on the republican side has been too few republicans for whatever reason. either they agree with trump, people have a right rear of trump. or they don't believe in -- cowards have-nots to up.

and the reason he has taken over the party is because so many unlike john kasich have not have a backbone to stand up. to listen to that is unless you stand up, if the other person is the only voice in the room, that voice will dominate. when donald trump went down the escalator in that first campaign event. he was not taken as a serious candidate. when all those other candidates in all the mainstream republicans wouldn't stand up to him or say anything of disagreement. all of a sudden, he's in charge. he still. is john kasich to his credit, i'm sure a lot of your viewers in the republican lines don't like it very much but for someone like me who's looking for some courage. and feels electric courage among those who know better has been a real crisis. i give him credit even though i don't agree with him everything still. i give a lot of credit for having -- the courage to stand up. last question, i think we'll go to the house for a vote. >> let's go to howard in texas.

republican line. >> good morning, how y'all do when? >> you're on with, us go ahead. >> seem like this guy's real big anti republican for some reason. if you don't want to stand up, you know no matter what, the last election was not right. for four years, you try to overturn the election. for four previous years, y'all try to overturn it. you're trying to overturn the bush election. you know it wasn't right so what are some democrats gonna stand up. also in tennessee wasn't that an insurrection on the floor there. it was. but for some reason, you don't want to admit that. when are democrats gonna stand up. this president is hurting our nation. you've got to admit that he is hurting our nation. look what's happening. look what's happening to our nation. it's not for the bid. he was a united. i don't know what he's done. the election wasn't right. >> that's howard in texas. >> howard, thanks for your question. obviously, i don't agree with your points.

i'm all about their, or legitimate elections. i think the date is pretty clear on what happened in november. november of 20 that joe biden won quite decisively. i'm working every day to make sure we have elections that include everybody going forward as well. all agree to disagree on joe biden. i think if you look closely. i see republicans in ohio right now, our lieutenant governor is brightening every day that ohio has its lowest unemployment numbers ever. well listen employment percentage. that's actually happening all over the country. when you invest in infrastructure, even middle class based economy. guess what? the economy works well. i don't think that's just because you lieutenant governor 's work. i think it's because a national policy. that now are playing out around the country. whether you see republicans -- the gentleman from texas, guarantee you if you look at every single governor right now in the country. all of them are bragging about

how low their unemployment rate is. you think that's because each governor's doing amazing job or do you think it's because natural -- national politics are working. i submit us because national policies are generally working. i think joe biden -- and the record is quite strong. there are other things we need to work. and i agree that we remain too divided. my hope is we go forward. maybe tough during the primary cycle, the presidential cycle. obviously, we have a lot of work to do to show uniting. i think the facts, again, watch every governor in this country. republican or democrat. when they talk about their state. they're bragging about how great things are. all of us should figure out that must not be because each state is itself doing well. it's because there's national policies right now that are working. they pulled this out of an incredibly steep recession only a couple years ago. >> if i'm correct, correct me if i'm wrong, ohio has a republican governor and republican legislature. where did the teams near book work as for us working in your

state itself as far as changing what's going on? >> republican legislature is a disaster. we are about to see the speaker the house convicted. he was convicted, now he's gonna be sentenced for the biggest bribery scandal in history of our country. our public and legislature is literally the case study. what happens, this is something all republicans and democrats and independents can agree on. whatever you have people in power. because the districts are rigged so that people cannot lose. meaning there's no accountability it's bad. it's bad if it's in texas. if it's bad if it's an ohio. it's bad in the blue state. unaccountable political power is a disaster for the people. that's what ohio is living through. we are seeing extremism that does not reflect our state. we're seeing lawlessness. they violated the constitution

seven times in one year to draw themselves districts that they could not lose. your gentleman from texas. i hope you agree that anytime you have politicians who already are in the midst of corruption scandals literally keeping themselves in power. not by winning over the voters with policy. but by literally drying districts that are guaranteed the election. it's a broken system. that's what ohio is stuck with right now. you see in extremism. where the state that forced ten-year-old rape victim to go to indiana to get abortion access. because in ohio, it wasn't allowed. even though 60% of ohio's support of roe v. wade. that's how extreme we've gotten. on the flip side, what do you see when you see these broken corrupt state houses. their basic m.o. is to get public goods to private players. nowhere has have been more clear in ohio than taking public school dollars. giving it to things like an online scam that wasn't taking

attendance while the publish -- one thing you're seeing in ohio it is because of a broken state house. you are seeing a state that has the fifth or sixth highest ranked schools in the nation. 15 years ago, now in the mid twenties. we have the highest student debt. number one in the entire country. people leaving in droves. health care outcomes way down. when you get a broken state house. and it's corrupted and it's public service. it stops being public service. it's sort of a private service using public assets. you see a decline in public outcomes that even a great state like ohio can't live through. we're seeing a dramatic downfall in most public outcomes as you can imagine. population, young people leaving, we have a governor who i would say is not quite as extreme as this broken a corrupt state house. he is not willing to stand up. this is the story of the more

moderate governors and the republicans in the last 15 years. he refuses to not go along with it. he goes along with all of their saying and doing. even though he's far better than they. are he ends up being sort of an accomplice to it all. that's why if you look i wasn't a protest in ohio a few weeks ago and i think 1000 plus people. people in ohio are very upset about how much of the state house was broken. by the way, couple years ago. when we had a referendum to fix this gerrymandering problem. more than 70% of ohio, republicans, democrats, independents, all supported. not so much people want to change in this broken system that the. state house. here's the problem. it's not just ohio. these -- this is a symbol of state houses around the country. this is david pepper, joining us he's the former chair of the ohio democratic party. the latest book saving democracy, a users manual for every american viewer from cincinnati, democrats, this is dave. >>,.

i like you as a person, when you are a politician,. i'd like to see you back in politics. talk about a couple democrats -- ohio, in kentucky. a very good person. we got that bridge, across the ohio river, that's something that people need. we need to know more about. how they got into this, state by state, the local rebels, just corrupting everything. they asked about the money. not gerrymandering.

gerrymandering. we need to get better results. i hope to get back in politics. me >> thursday from, cincinnati. >> thank you dave, i did not stave to, call isa beyond cincinnati city council, thank you dave. yes, a great example of how you win ohio. i think he has a great shot this coming year. i think you meant the governor beshear. not bevin. kentucky has a governor who is a truly remarkable figure. he's a younger democrat in the state of kentucky. who, if you look at polling, the most popular democratic governor in the country, in his own state, and he's in kentucky. to me he's a great. model all these people that are no longer about public service, i watch him, like sarah palin i

can see kentucky from my house. i'm in cincinnati, so i see governor beshear lead. what's so amazing about him is he's just saying what he believes. he's just exuding public service. he doesn't pull punches it's working in kentucky at a place where you think you'd be in trouble. because normally it's republican states i'm a big fan of governor beshear. he's up for reelection this year. i think will do well, he's just a public servant. i think it's a good sign but. don't fall for all the negative stuff, if you are a candidate or an officeholder, look at a guy like governor brashear, and you will see people, even in swing states, even bread states like kentucky, when they see someone with through public service, they rally around them. they've done that, governor beshear has had to lead through covid, he recently had a terrible shooting in louisville. he's had terrible natural disasters, please, he's just

lead. it shows you people reward that kind of public servant leadership. it seems more rare these days. on the koch brothers, i joke about this, they didn't have to read my book. because they've done, it for 30 years. my first book is called laboratories of autocracy. that's not just a cute title, they do, as they sort of suggest. the states are working in concert, one something really anti-democratic passes in florida, a few weeks later it shows up in ohio. it shows up in texas. it shows up in tennessee. it's the koch brothers, in a group they've created, one particular called alec. they are coordinating a lot of the states, a lot of, many of these laws are written in the states are not written in the state. the written in some conference roof somewhere. where people are funded by private money. it feels like all of these attacks on democracy, or happening all over. and they look really similar, it's exactly what's happening. they figured out a long time

ago, that the key to democracy in this country, and the places that shape which every care. are the states and state houses. rather than run their agenda through washington, where everyone is paying attention, where you can get backed up through the process in the politics. they're much better off going to state houses where most people will pay no attention to what's going on. where they can gerrymander these places, like they've done in ohio, no accountability, and then they can run through all sorts of crazy unpopular laws. and no one can stop them, the reason i wrote my second book is to say, we can stop them. but not with our traditional political strategy of only focusing on swing states for federal office. we can stop them if we go to the state house, where their battle is and we bring our bottle there, unlike the dc bottle, that battle starts with you. if you're frustrated, you can play a role, don't allow the

uncontested district area to be uncontested ever again. run for yourself, or find your most impressive, friend and get them to run for. it and help them. help make sure voters of the disenfranchised, by your state house. help them reengage. sign it for the elections official, to we can protect voters, when they show up to vote. on, and on, and on. look at the state house in lobby when they try to. talk but there are so many things you can do especially when you realize it's not just about washington, or some doj investigation, it's actually about where you live, that is the koch brothers, frontline. to say look undermined, moxie for their agenda. make it your frontline as well, and you happen to be standing that frontline every single day. >> let's hear from another ohioan, in richard in an independent -- line. >> i'm kind of curious about the gerrymandering.

based on the census, that hit they've taken every decade, the last one was 2020, but the thing that i've noticed about the democrats, they don't think certain emphasis on state legislation positions will focus more on senatorial and presidential elections. and consequently, what ended up happening is that they got control over legislature here in ohio for the next ten years. the democratic party is going to be independent for that entire time out of time, and as part of the party here in ohio during the 2020 census. where was the emphasis basically on getting state legislatures elected, so you didn't have to come up with this gerrymandering stuff. what was your role in this? >> good question, i served as chair of the party through 20. but every day i think about what i could've done better, and what i did do right. we all have accountability, for

good and bad. i will say i'm proud of what when i was chair. the first time in the decade, we actually picked up the state house seat. when i was done being chair, we have more state houses and when we started. when i was, chair in the middle when i was, chair i want, point we had zero supreme court justices. when i was, done we had a moderate for, three democrats and independent chief justice. to your question, democrats actually, i give them a lot of credit to the state house leaders, although they were gerrymandering. the minority leaders, of the state house,. when you know how you may know. them they fought very hard for fair districts. what happened in ohio, was not about politics, it was about lawbreaking and this i know you republican listeners are gonna want to hear this they may not even believe it if it's outrageous the ohio supreme court struck down seven different times as unconstitutional violating the same constitution the state

house leaders taken oath to. the maps, of the republicans drew, in 2021. so, there was a very hard fight the democrats did fight hard to the credit. and we were part of the team that had changed the constitution in the first place i was proud to be part of that is well 70% of the voters supporting it but the republicans literally broke the law seven times and in the and got away with it so in that case. there are things that i looking back, would do differently myself, or even when i was on there for 20 which other people differently. in this case what we have is an absolute breakdown of the rule of law. where maps, the democrats, pointed out what was illegal. found to be legal, and then, the most surprised, the most corrupt state house in the country, continue to be corrupt and voted in place maps that do not follow how the constitution. in grove city, you are sitting in a state that is that's current maps.

they currently violate the constitution. but they violated it for so long that one court unfortunately said. it may be unconstitutional, so we got to have an, elections were gonna have them on these illegal maps. democrats recently, honestly did fight hard here. but overall, i do agree with color, overall this is the point of these, books we are far too focused on federal races, and not on state house races. and, i went through it before with page on the very beginning. but oftentimes we are not even challenging these races were not even contesting these races. if someone is voting for insane or extreme laws. that don't reflect their state or even their district. and then they don't even have an election the next november, what do we think they're going to do? they're gonna keep voting for those laws because those voters, i'm sorry, those politicians, the only thing they worry about in their entire career is the next primary, if they don't

have a general election. the only way they lose their primary, is if someone more supreme than they are runs against them. but when you have these systems with zero accountability, because of gerrymandering and things against these people, every incentive in their world is to be more extremist. not more mainstream, and that's why we see it as a downward spiral, so overall i agree, i will say i was proud to pick state houses it's not enough. the victory on the republicans jen you remaining, a group of people that got away with breaking the law. by the way one other thing there will be a new set of maps being negotiated next year, we all from grove city cincinnati will have to make a whole lot of noise to make sure those are not illegal as well, the >> hello,. >> hey joe. >> i have some things i want to run, through i like c-span to

evaluate all independent voters. i classify myself in that category, i'm not really an independent our favorite democrat, i'd like you to compare mr. sorrows with the koch brothers. which one would you rather have as a prosecutor? it's corrupt, i don't know why it's not given more air time, he should take on the view. he's an individual out. there >> thank you. joe >> i will say, vivek it's a whole lot of press, for someone who's about 1%.

he actually is also from cincinnati like i am. i'll just say, i don't think the press is corrupt. i think the problem right now is that the press is falling apart financially. one of the reasons why, going back to the themes in my book, one of the reasons why state houses have become this amazing place that do really bad stuff is because there is not enough press to cover it, i go through this in both of my books you get 20 bills that come forward. and a very hollowed out press tour, we have a pretty robust one in ohio, a lot of states have two or three reported to the entire state house. they are not able, they don't have the bandwidth of the capacity, to keep up with half of what's going on in the state houses. if you are the koch brothers, it's, perfect you can pass the state level's offices, and very few people in the states even know about. it even worse when you have the small local papers, from mid sized towns, in smaller are

dying, getting gobbled up. the paper that would cover the local state wrap, and explain to the people that smaller liberal communities, that's just. john you have a lack of awareness, state houses are doing in general. and then even worse, you have no awareness whatsoever of who your state rep is what they, do which again kind of creates a perfect environment to have state houses be these places doing awful things. so, certainly i've watched tv read the news every, day i quibble with articles and stories, but overall, the biggest problem right now is that the mainstream traditional press it's really struggling. one way i would put it is, one challenge in this current crazy environment is, we have to pay to get the truth through press generally. but a whole lot of misinformation, is being sent to us every day for free. so we have a real mismatch

right now between how easy it is to get bad information, it's harder to get good information, the people who are dedicated, those small town local papers that are dedicated to really find the facts it's getting harder and harder for them to make it through. that mismatch is one reason why i think we have such a divide. my guess is, you hear such different things on one of your lines, versus other lines. it's because they're such, it's so hard to track down the truth these days in this environment. >> i assume orgasm of those state house elected lane talked about one voter turnout jobs during those years you know that as well as anyone how do you improve those numbers as far as getting people? more people to the polls? >> you know you know offense but you don't but -- you don't call them off -- years i'm not saying that. i'm releasing it cause you said. it what's a signal, what signal do we sent to voters?

here's what i would say, do you care about democracy? that state, house two years off the presidential election, not only are voting for your state house, but probably for the secretary of state. those are the positions that determined democracy probably more than even the president in your state. at least. or your congress. if you care about your democracy, there is no one on the year than that year. by the way we see people really rally around wisconsin supreme court or the secretary of state races last november what we see is when people understand democracy is at stake they actually do rally. but we have it in every way, we can't keep talking about these positions as the bench for something else. that minimizes them in that language. when we say mid term, it's not myth democracy, this is the race that will determine democracy in your state. it's not myth anything.

i think we need to frame it that way, we have to campaign that way. we have to organize, one thing i would say the republican colleagues would like to see here this democrats do wrong. we shut everything down at the presidential, after the presidential election. we don't really build it up again unless it happens to be a senate race until the next presidential election. when we do that we encourage thinking, it must not be as important, my attitude is we have to have an infrastructure that's continuous that's community, based still in our own, work we never send a signal that somehow that election is important. you mentioned the jacksonville. race i was on the city council there is no more direct service when it comes to public safety or economic growth or education then the service done in the elections in the odd years. because that school board and city council. look at all the debates about education right. now these are also frontline democracy positions. we need to use not only our language, but our overall infrastructure, to emphasize

all of these elections matter. and obviously, that's one thing with this book. they are a bunch of take homes. one thing, it's a long battle for democracy. it never stops. and so much of the work to be done, it is done in every year and also not just in elections themselves every viewer right now, you care but we are talking, about you go to any nonprofit that you know and get them to be registering voters to. that's as important as any other activity you, do the week before an election. >> this is from ohio dennis is there democrats, line high. >> yes it's iowa, toledo iowa. >> i was gonna say --

[inaudible] >> color we have a few minutes left for their gas to have a question for our guest? caller? >> not really. i was gonna ask, you there's a guy in iowa, that does commercials, doesn't say he's a democrat or republican, he was a young guy -- >> i apologize, we're gonna have to move on. mike, independent line from missouri, you are the last call. >> thank you for taking my

call. i would agree our democracy is under the threat, i do plan to leave read the book that you're portraying their. however, i feel that the biggest threat to our democracy is our mainstream media. i would like your guest to comment on, that because it seems as though whether it's abc, nbc, cbs, msnbc, cnn, they're all political arms of the democratic party. and they control the narrative, as to what the american people here, and in a lot of cases what they don't hear. even a c-span, they really have lied and cheated the american people. i would like to have you comment on the mainstream media, and how will it's really a threat to our democracy. >> mr. pepper? >> thank you, first of all no

state has gone through everything i'm talking about, worse than missouri. so i'm glad he's gonna take a look at the book. missouri is living through a downward spiral, against democracy, as much as any states. i hear a lot from missourians, and talk with them a lot about that. there's a lot of work to do, they're in ohio. i'm, honestly i just don't agree. i think certainly, there is different media outlets, sometimes have a certain maybe political event, all others i think are more neutral. you know, a lot of this comes out of changing laws years ago. they got the fair this doctrine my sense is people can sorted overall. i think the biggest, by the way we have seen one media operation, get pummeled in the last couple months because they were simply caught lying. that's not good for anyone. hopefully, that accountability make sure that everyone is making sure to keep us close to the truth is they can. i would say my problem, right now in the media, is simply there's so much focus on

washington. the media is leading, there are people working on, this but not enough, someone joked about this the other, day one kevin mccarthy walked down the hallway in congress. there are hundred reporters following him. as if each one of them is going to get an individual scoop, as if different from the others. that's not going to happen. what i would say the media, take two thirds of those reporters, send them out to all of the state capitals, running this, country you'll find a lot of drama a lot of stories a lot of scandals. as much as washington. when you also be covering where democracy is being attacked better, than chasing mccarthy down, all of you getting the same. quote i think the media has to start seeing what i'm talking about. democracy is under attack and states, that is the big story, and there has to be a way to spread out the resources to cover that story and my guesses. you'll find a lot of good stories that might even get better ratings than the same covering the same kevin mccarthy statement. the book is caed