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journal">> and we are joined ts morning by niall stanage, who is a white house columnist for "the hill" newspaper. and he is here this morning to talk about how controversial issues are playing out in state legislatures. niall, good morning. >> it's good to see you. >> all right. you recently wrote a column in "the hill" newspaper, talking about the culture wars and the united states are playing out at the state level. tell us a little bit about why we are seeing. >> i think it depends on the specific issue. so, abortion, obviously, has been a culture war issue for ever. clearly, that's been moved to the states by the supreme court decision about 11 months ago, striking down roe v. wade. now, then you have other additional issues, like so-called so your two laws, which have really come to the four as a matter of debate much more recently. then, in addition to that, you have some politicians --

presidential ambitions caught up in this as well. governor desantis in florida has quite clearly and quite ostentatiously been inserting himself into some of these -- six-week abortion ban, so-called anti woke act, and things like that. >> why are we seeing this -- state legislatures rather in washington, in congress, at the white house. why are we seeing this coming up in gubernatorial and legislative at the state level? >> i think a couple of reasons. one is, in relation to gun laws, for example, obviously, it's very salient this morning for very sad reasons. there hasn't been a lot of federal action on that area. the pro-gun control groups have increasingly focused on state legislatures, and have, by their -- made some progress. so, that is one part of this picture. i think, also, jesse -- there's also the fact that our politics has become increasingly nationalized.

these big issues that excite such passions have become dominant even in state level races. and, as you say, gubernatorial races, and sometimes at a more hyper local level, things like school board elections are now being fought on crt issues and things like that. >> is this a good thing? or is this bad that these are -- same conversations going on in different places and likely coming to different solutions. is this a good thing or bad thing? >> one of the experts i spoke to suggested this was a good thing. and his argument was, in a -- job of the states to experimental little bit more. he put it that the federal government is there as a guard rail if things go completely crazy. but state legislatures and other state bodies can deal with these issues at a level that is, by its nature, closer to the people. and so a law that you might want an alabama is not

necessarily the same kind of law that voters in vermont are going to support. and so, having those state level disparities does not necessarily a bad thing. >> does that -- however, especially when it comes to hot button issues like gun, control, abortion -- does that mean that americans face different laws in different states? and may or may not know what jurisdiction has which law? >> i think that is a really important, point particularly and -- to topics of gun laws and abortion laws. we really do see very dramatic differences. now, obviously, on the gun question, there are all sorts of questions around reciprocity and whether one states law should be recognized in another state. in the abortion question, you and i have a region of the nation, primarily in the -- that is through -- prohibiting or coming close to prohibiting abortion completely. and the northeast and the west coast are taking an entirely

different view, we are going out of the way to protect reproductive rights there. so, does that contribute to the sense that we are, in some ways, two separate nations? possibly. but it's also reflective of the voters in -- >> speaking of the voters in those places, there are some people who say that there is a national move, a national group that is manipulating the state legislatures by trying to push through the state same laws in different states using lobbying, using their political power. is that what we are seeing? are we seeing these shadowy national groups pushing through laws that states may not have moved on their own? >> so, i want to be a little bit careful with that one. i think that the different laws in different states will reflect different political cultures in those states and different views on the parts of voters. that said, if you want to nefariously affect things, you

can do that and get more bang for your buck, honestly, in state legislatures or in even more localized areas because those races don't typically -- budgets attached, certainly not the way a presidential election does, for example, or even a senate race. so, you can impact state legislatures and, certainly, in the school board elections, if you wish to do so, much easier than you can do on the national level. >> and we seeing that? we seeing more lobbying money from larger groups focusing on state legislatures? one of the things i think we can both agree -- congress is pretty much deadlocked -- you are not going to get any controversial or big name issues through congress. we can see -- moving their money away from congress and towards state legislatures where they can get things that they may? want >> i think, in broad terms, we do. we certainly are seeing an increased focus and an increased recognition of the

importance of these issues or these matters. as well, you look at something like the debate over something like critical race theory, 18 states now have passed some sort of restriction or prohibition on what might broadly be called crt, defining crt is a whole other battle, as you know -- abortion, again, we talk about 13 states with almost total prohibitions -- dependent on how you characterize -- it about the same number number -- with -- type restrictions. i think those pivotal issues do encourage groups with -- to involve themselves, to a greater extent. >> i would -- some of these issues -- but before i do, i want to remind our colleagues that they can take part in this conversation. we are going to open up all regular lines. that means, democrats, you can call in that 202, 708 -- republicans, your line is going to be -- independents you can call 200

2748 202 748 8002 -- and on facebook at facebook.com slash c-span. so, i want to dive in a little bit more today about the gun laws in the u.s.. because, of course, we have that tragic shooting yesterday in austin, texas. we see different states with different gun laws. and we see a whole plethora of gun laws trying to be pushed through in several state legislatures. what are the -- what's the landscape that we are seeing at the right now? >> i think there are a number of states that have actually passed more stringent gun laws pretty recently. if you look at michigan, where governor whitmer recently signed as something that, basically, increases the storage requirements for guns. and in washington state, governor jay inslee there sided

actual assault weapons ban, and a number of other restrictions. colorado, governor jared polis -- with those would -- those are all democratic governors. we are not seeing those kinds of moves made in places like texas, despite these just catastrophic events, the uvalde massacre as well as what we saw yesterday. there has not really been -- for gun control efforts in texas. in fact you remember, jessie, that the last gubernatorial election we had governor abbott, who's a strong advocate, shall we, say of the second amendment, quite easily defeating beto o'rourke, the democrat, who have been pushing for much more stringent gun laws. >> how does one state decision to -- be more stringent on gun laws affect the next state across the border? or are these laws, these

entities unto themselves? >> i think they affect it, but in a fairly nebulous way. also, they affect the general perception of what may be politically possible. for a very long time, there was this perception that any mention of gun control was bad for democrats and good for republicans. that, has i think, you've been eroded in a number of these states. but it's not a universal rule. and there are these big differences between states that are much more resistant to gun control laws, and those that favor them. so, does it have an impact? it has a sort of abstract impact, but not always a very concrete or pacific specific one. >> you said earlier that state legislatures and state -- have a greater chance to experiment, especially when it goes to these hot button issues. but then, don't they have the supreme court and the and higher court system and -- i know that you want to do this

in your state, but, it's against the constitution. >> yeah, they absolutely do end -- and they also sometimes have state courts that to -- take and very obvious example, we were were just talking about the six-week abortion ban in florida. i'm not sure that the media has done a great job and pointing out that that is not in effect yet, because of the courts in florida are looking at howard comports with the state constitution. and then, on top of that, you have the supreme court, a very short distance from where we are sitting right now, that can weigh in on any number of these matters and declare state matters unconstitutional. >> let's let some of our viewers take part in this conversation. we will start with mark, who is calling from florida, on the democratic line. mark, good morning. >> hello, good morning, thank you for taking my call. since we are talking about culture wars and the role of state legislatures, what does your guest know about the culture warrior, texas state

representative ryan slaton's a little upset there? >> not very much, is the honest answer of that. i don't know if you want to enlighten the or otherwise. but i'm not very aware of mr. slaton's activities that you are alluding to. alluding to. >> i think -- may have dropped off. right? okay. i actually don't know what he is referring to as well. >> -- >> we will look at it and see if we can find -- let's go to gary, who is calling from livingston, texas on the republican line. gary, good morning. >> hey, good morning. i just wanted to correct what you said a while ago. the shooting that happened yesterday was in allen, texas, and not austin. thank you. >> did they -- >> i didn't think so --

>> it was in allen, texas. let's go to luis, who is calling from kansas city, missouri, on the independent line. luis, good morning. >> good morning. thank you for taking my call. could you discuss the difference between bribery and -- in terms of sources with congressman? >> that's actually a great question. and that could be a long discussion. i mean, the influence of money in politics is something that has been an issue for decades, but seems to be intensifying as an issue. at what point is the purchase of influence illegal? there is no sense -- rather than what is illegal. obviously, a lot of politicians

of both parties are pretty dependent on getting financial donations. they would argue, universally, i think, that that does not affect the votes they cast, or the positions that they take. i would leave it up to you and the rest of our audience to adjudicate whether you think that is true or not. >> what of the things that we have seen, especially as it comes for the next presidential election -- the thing is, we talked about earlier that some governors seem to be using these culture wars at the state level to, let's just say, increase their national standing. it is one -- is the democratic party, the republican party, or -- any party, particularly, benefiting from having these local state level culture war battles in their state legislatures? does that give the republicans an advantage?

does it give democrats an advantage? >> i don't think it is really that clear cut. and it is a great question. i think there are some areas in which it does benefit republicans. as to your point about presidential ambitions, we mentioned governor desantis earlier on. he, very clearly, has used his state powers legitimately to promote or to game prominence from a particularly conservative position on these culture war issues. but does it ultimately benefit one party or the? other i think advocates of gun control would argue, for example, that they have more success at the state level, rather than federally -- the side on other issues like abortion -- i think, primarily, that have benefited republicans -- >> when issue that has popped up on a local level that we haven't talked about yet is the gender affirming care issue, and the transgender issues that we have seen, all of a sudden,

that seem to be talked about in quite a few state legislatures. where do we stand with that? >> but we stand with that is that there are a number of legislatures who are considering or trying to pass bills on that. but that actually gets to your previous point about, which issues benefit which party. and it is notable that there is a poll just a couple of days ago in the washington post that indicated that, broadly speaking, the american public favor, well, the more republican or more conservative position and that was a poll that found that the majority of americans believe that gender is determined by the sex assigned at birth, and large majority of americans were opposed to trans women or girls being permitted to compete in sports with people who had the female sex assigned at fourth. so, i think that, and that issue, that is one where, clearly, it seems to me -- possessives or whatever term you want to use i've got out in

front for the american people. >> and when you say out front you mean that the left is not -- >> it's not instep with where the american public are. >> -- and how does that affect going on in the state level in? does that mean that republicans can use this issue and try to pass laws that will put them at an advantage in their six upcoming elections? >> yes is the short answer. and i think that is because you can use laws at the state level in the literal sense of trying to prohibit things -- excuse me, or trying to encourage things. but you can also use laws at the state level to promote or amplify a particular issue so. on that issue of what we might broadly call trans rights, if republicans calculate it, seems to me, correctly, looking at the data, that the public is broadly sympathetic to their position, then they can push these bills in state legislatures as a means of --

and then there's -- political advantage to be gleaned from. that >> all right. -- phone lines -- and let's talk to richard, who is talking calling from verona, missouri on the democratic line. richard, good morning. >> hello. i'm just wondering -- i talked a while ago -- listening and a guy was wanting to know about bribes. you don't -- supreme court justice. i never thought you could. but it makes you kind of wonder sometimes. and -- abortions down in texas and it is -- you know, it's a republican -- i guess -- abortion now, and -- abortion was illegal and -- women went to back alleys and places like fall down steps and taking coat hangers and stuff

like that. you can pass laws but it is not going to change people's way of doing things. and -- abortion -- i hope that will be the death of the republican party, this upcoming election. because i am tired of -- i am afraid to even go -- mall into springfield, scared i'm going to get shot. so, the church -- who wants to go to church? people get shot. it's pretty disgusting and it's a long time and -- history what these people are talking about -- and -- history -- and things were a lot better now than they ever have been. i will go with it that way. thank you, sir. >> yeah, i mean, i think richard rages raises a number of interesting points there, in relation to the supreme court. obviously, the current controversy around justice thomas's, i would say, adding -- a code of ethics for supreme court justices and --

not at the moment. on the point of abortion, richard, the point that you raised about how things were in the past, when abortion was illegal, i think, is an important one. and certainly, there are republicans, not just -- republicans who have expressed concern about the party -- too hard a line on it and -- and -- south carolina -- for example -- has suggested -- or demanded that the -- find some middle ground on the issue and -- we will have to see -- >> let's go to rachel, who is calling from -- texas on the independent line. rachel, good morning. good m>> good morning. i -- someone on c-span the other day and they were talking about when the brady bill expired for --

that right after that the cartels were able to get voluntary -- and that's when we started -- the problems with people coming over from mexico and -- illegals coming over here. and at the time when they were going to let this brady bill expire, over 80% was against military raffles being sold. and then -- conservative radio -- instead that the sale of the military raffles was going to help fund the iraq war. and that's the reason why so many people allow that brady bill to expire. why is the -- accountable for the lies? >> i am not exactly sure about the point in relation to iraq. rachel, obviously, the assault

weapons ban, as you say, it expire. there have been calls, not least from president biden himself, to try to resurrect that ban. there aren't immediate signs of that happening in congress any time soon. but it remains a live political issue, just one that there is -- much chance of any instant action on. >> -- the caller -- i am wondering how much effect does the statewide and local media have on the -- does coverage or -- state and local level the way we see congress being covered by the national media -- state level? >> probably not. but for a reason that you and i would consider quite discouraging, which, is at the state level, the media has been hollowed out to a very considerable degree. and one can look at, basically,

across the nation, cathy -- how many of your correspondents there are, where it is state newspapers or state broadcasters covering what was going on in these legislatures and i would argue -- goes back to the other point you raised in our conversation about whether lobbyists and moneyed interests can affect things in state legislatures. broadly speaking, we both know the media has its fault and we are not perfect. but broadly speaking, the less scrutiny there is of any anybody in power, the more at liberty they feel to the shady stuff. and i think -- >> and for our viewers, i want you to know, we didn't have -- a wonderful producers have found the story for yahoo.com. and i want to read you about this -- lawmaker that our first color asked about. a house committee in the texas state legislature on -- recommended the expulsion of

state representative brian slanted, who reportedly -- 19 year old at his apartment -- alcohol -- and gave her a loyalty test trying to pressure her to stay silent. that was a lawmaker that the first color was talking about. we didn't forget about. that we just wanted to make sure that we brought it to you. and do you have anything you want to say about this? >> i mean, i literally was not aware of that allegation until you read aloud. my working assumption is that he denies that he did those things? >> that would be my assumption as well. >> i don't want to get too far ahead of what the facts are. but obviously, it -- reprehensible conduct. >> are there national groups who specifically pushed legislation at state levels that we can look at and see that these are groups who are pushing these issues -- issues at stake levels? are the groups who specialize

in that? >> i think there are groups who are increasingly concentrating on that. so, on the -- side you would, i think, site moms demand, the pro-gun control group -- it has, in combination with -- an organization that it is pretty much affiliated with, as very much emphasized the capacity to change laws at the state level. now, on the conservative side, there are a number of groups that are clearly concentrated on that. there were a number of groups, i think, affiliated with what used to be referred to as the koch brothers. there's only one coat brother particularly active in these things anymore. and they -- clearly saw a -- at the state level. >> -- go back to our phone lines -- michael, who's calling from

sterling, virginia, on the democratic line. michael, good morning. >> hello there. thank you so much, c-span, for taking my call, and also providing this forum. and also, i would like to mention my respect for weeks mr. niall stanage and his willingness to take on an issue like culture wars which, i'm sure, is wide open, and quite frightening, from your perspective. i wanted to go back to something you said about the difficulty in determining where the line is when we try to determine whether somebody is fundraising or actually being influenced by money. i never really thought about it much. but when you talk about it you caused me to think of something. and so i wanted to ask you to expand on something. how crazy is the idea to

completely pull public and -- not public, but free money out of elections and -- that election debate and -- just purely have it be kept taxpayer money to pay for that stuff, and then, maybe even possibly require some of the media forms to -- provide space and then also to have taxpayer money and sure that journalism is clear and transparent and upright -- well, i just want to know, how crazy is the idea that fully just allowed any kind of money into campaigns and just make it

all taxpayer money -- these people are working for the taxpayer anyway. so, i -- just take your answer off line. thank you, sir. >> thank you. thank you, michael, for the kind words. and -- crazy idea and -- before -- all sorts of examples elsewhere in the world, and public funding elections and banning or severe restriction of private -- but can you get such a law passed here? i think that is really the question. you also raise the point about journalism and transparency and journalism. that gets, i, think into a more tricky area. because then you are given to government funded journalism and people have, i think, understandable concerns about that. >> at what point do the movements on these -- issues -- turn into constitutional issues

where states are now involving themselves in the federal government should be doing this. and -- think of immediately is the border states and immigration. and their complaints that washington is doing anything. so, they have to do something. but -- >> that's a great point that we haven't really got into immigration until now, which is on me. there are real serious constitutional issues there. because it is the daily record responsibility of the federal government to make immigration law. but then you have states, including texas that say, well, we just can't -- we can't tolerate the current situation of thousands and thousands of people coming across the border. so, in that issue there are clearly constitutional issues. there are clearly issues of federal power and federal legislation of the system here.

and when you have also -- as was the case with governor abbott -- sending people to the border, states forces -- to the border, then you have a pretty constitutionally deep waters in that. >> with the same thing go for gun control, for example? because we have had the second amendment, the interpretation of, it the second amendment is in the constitution. >> yeah. it could -- i mean, i guess is an area that would be one in which state legislatures has a very restrictive gun control law -- could so-called gun rights groups, protests against that and take it to the supreme court. i think they could if they could make a compelling case that it actually violated the second amendment. of course, the supreme court right now as currently constituted has, actually, a conservative majority. so, in that hypothetical scenario, those gun rights groups might find quite a

favorable hearing, i would imagine. >> and i know that several of these hot button issues, sometimes, go to state with an expectation that a conservative state will do this, and illiberal state would do that. but sometimes there is a surprise. like what happened in nebraska and south carolina, and their attempts to pass more stringent abortion laws. talk a little bit about that. based on -- they do -- election. >> yeah, that's a great point. nebraska and south carolina -- there was an attempt to restrict abortions in both those states that failed in both those legislatures, despite the fact that they are conservative states and i think that really goes to this really complicated and not a question of abortion and the politics of abortion. we've seen that, almost as soon as the supreme court struck down roe v. wade. you might remember there was a volatile native in kansas that the liberal side or pro-choice side or abortion rights side -- we have seen that pattern

repeated in a number of places on the same days the midterm elections last year and there were ballot measures on the state -- on the -- in five states related to abortion. the liberal side won all five, including in kentucky, and in montana, states that are not renowned for their liberal leanings. >> so, is that the state legislature not being where the constituents are, or maybe trying to get ahead of where the constituents are? >> yeah, it can be. and it can also be the whole scenario that we see over and over again here, of politicians worrying of politicians warning about a primary challenge. sometimes, we will see politicians propose these bills that happened in south carolina, that was a near total abortion ban being proposed. actually, the reason that failed was one, two or three slightly

or moderate republicans who said, i am personally conservative, but i cannot vote for this. that was an interesting development. host: let's go back to our phone lines and start with tom calling from redford, michigan on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning, gentlemen. i have a comment about uncontrolled -- gun control. you did bring up how governor whitmer just signed into law the new gun control laws for michigan. about storage and stuff like that. with michigan, it seems prosecutors are not enforcing the laws we already have on the books. the shooter in this last -- he had a concealed weapon by the police and went through the process of going through the court and everything. then -- they ended up charging

him with a misdemeanor, illegally carrying a weapon in his vehicle rather than a felony guns charge. because of that, he was able to purchase guns that he then years to do the shooting in east lansing. if we have all of these laws, it is all well and good but we are not enforcing these laws to begin with. it seems like the criminals that appropriate these guns will end up not following the laws, anyways. i would be curious to hear your thoughts on that. guest: i think that is a valid point. one that comes up a lot. there is clearly on the liberal side a push for all kinds of gun controls, you do not need me to repeat them. you know the various measures we are talking about. often times from something tragic -- when something tragic, with it often does with a present degree of frequency, people do not often know some of these changes do not seem to

match up to the actual nature of the shooting. would a certain change in the law prevent what happened in east lansing, what happened in allen, texas yesterday? that is, i think, a valid point, even though i think people of valid concerns with a sheer number of firearms in this country and ease of availability. the point about laws not being enforced and so forth seems to me a legitimate point to make. host: we have seen a list of culture war issues show up in state legislatures like reproductive rights, gender affirming care. you do not hear as much about crt, it is still out there, and gun control. as we move toward the presidential election, do you see any other culture war issues you expect to see pop up at the state legislature level? guest: i think you have hit most of the main ones and what you said. we are talking a moment ago

about immigration. immigration in a sense is a culture war issue. it does to people sense of security and to people's sense of changing american culture. there are all sorts of different strands within that debate. there is clearly a big divide overall between liberals -- how liberals and conservatives see that issue. the main ones are the ones you mentioned, the abortion debate, the gun law debate, the crt debate. governor desantis is in a battle with disney, i am not sure -- it is national because it is a big case, but i am not sure other states are going to start attacking mickey mouse. host: ok. let's go to phil, calling from illinois on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. ok. i find it incongruous that the state legislatures want to protect the life of a fetus up until its birth.

but then, they do not want to protect that same life by allowing high-capacity, semi automatic guns to be owned so that those same children now can be killed in school. guest: yeah, i wasn't sure if you are adding more to that. that is a point i think is rightfully raised a lot. the sanctity of life is something that is cited all the time by opponents of abortion. there was not much sanctity in life in texas yesterday, unfortunately. i think that is a valid point to raise again. i think you used the word incongruous, i think that is

something politicians primarily on the democratic and liberal side raise on that particular topic a lot. host: we have seen more of these culture war issues play out in the state legislature. we also see more state legislators protest and take action inside their state chambers, like the tennessee three, zooey zephyr and montana. do you expect to see more of that as these hot button issue start showing up more and more as these -- at the state legislative level? guest: i think so. thought the tennessee three case was particularly important emblematic of some of these bigger issues. it started off as a debate about gun control. that is what sparked the original demonstrations from which those lawmakers were then expelled and subsequently reinstated. the fact the two lawmakers expelled were black clearly played into that discussion, as well, in a state that has -- how

would i put this tipple medically -- a checkered case of relations in that states history. i think that was a point where you saw these explosive strains in american life of issues of racial equality and issues of gun control and violence come together in a combustible -- that is why this particular controversy got so much national attention. seemingly coming from nowhere. to be the central, national storyline, i think we could see that happen again in the future. host: ok. let's go back to our phone lines and talk to kay, calling from houston, texas on the democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning. yes. i was calling, the guns need to

really be more stronger. host: more stronger on what? tell us more about what you are talking about. caller: if this governor has weakened the law to have all of these people in this state -- it is like it is the wild, wild west again. it is maddening and out of control. guest: you were talking about gun laws. is that what you are referring to, the wild, wild west? caller: yes, yes i am. guest: right. yeah. i am in a tricky position here, i am not here to express personal, political opinions. rarely, there are a lot of people who share your feelings. at the same time -- clearly, there are a lot of people who share your feelings.

i would note in the wake of other shootings in texas, there have not been restrictions on gun laws. in fact, i think it was in 2021, there was a permit list carry law passed in texas. you are absolutely entitled to the beliefs you hold and those beliefs have not recently carried the day in the texas legislature or the governor's mansion. host: we are going to run out of time. i want to ask this question. we talk about these culture war issues going down to the state legislative level. we have talked about crt inc. taught -- fought at the school board level. do we see these issues going to county councils, town councils, city councils? do we see these entities adding ready to make their own judgment on these culture war issues? guest: we do. i am trying to think of examples. i read about instances having

council elections being fought on things that policy councils do not have much control over, things like crt issue or abortion or things like that. where those issues that are not really within the legislative field of influence of hyper local races become central issues in those races. i think that is part of what we are talking about earlier. the nationalization of our politics, it becomes less about do we think jane or john are going to be people who can fund the school properly and it becomes more about where they stand on trans rights or something. that is competent -- has complicated those hyper local races by a lot. host: this makes it more important to participate and vote. we would like to thank niall stanage for being with us this morning and talking about how controversial policy issues are

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