april 16th, 16th street baptist church. he said i had a dream tonight. i had a dream that little white boys would go to school with little black girls, and they would swim together, and play in the park together.

then, in the same crescendo, he said he had a dream tonight. that line was uttered first. that is another way that birmingham changed everything. that is integrated future we should be looking at. thank you. >> [ applause ]. hello, everyone. welcome to washington times for this special episode of history.

as it happens podcast. we're doing a series of episodes about, the declaration of independence. why the declaration of independence? hello, everyone, welcome to the washington times for this special episode of history as it happens podcast. we have a special series of episodes about the declaration of independence. why the declaration of independence again? the subject is days old. the issues are fresh. the american revolution is a current event. i got that line from our guest today. hello, denver brown's men. historian at george washington university. walking to the washington design. >> thank you for being here with me. >> you are the guy that teaches the classes about george washington at the university named after him. you teach them at mount vernon too. >> i'm incredibly lucky. i'm a professor, and a chair of the history department at george washington university. i teach a range of classes on

early american history, including the american revolution, the war of 1812, and george washington and his world. it takes place in his world. his mount vernon estate, it's right here. >> george washington, did not sign the declaration of independence. >> what was he doing? >> he was getting ready to fight the british. he was in new york. he was welcoming. he was into something the largest armada of soldiers and sailors ever to cross the atlantic at that point. 30,000 british soldiers were arriving in new york. they were waiting for them. >> around this time, they were planning. they were already on their way looking at the invasion of canada as well. >> that's right. a lot of people don't realize, in the spring of 1775, this was a continent by july of 1776. up and down the east coast come all the way into canada.

only down into the southern colonies. >> the war was already underway . maybe i needed to find a john hancock professor at george washington university. maybe he would be one of the signatures to sign the document. the american revolution is teaching current events. what do you mean by that? >> one thing we do today, even as educators, we are showing that the history is here. there isn't a more relevant event than the american revolution. we live in a society, and with the frame of government that it created. a lot of our politics today, even a lot of the same issues, go back to that period. i think you can clue some of us into that. it is looking at it a different way. you see your own world today. >> we are still inhabiting the political world of the 18th century guys. >> that is why we are having this conversation. we look back to this moment so

much. >> not that events were frozen in time, a lot has happened since then. even just a few years later. i have always raised the question with some other friends on podcast trade what we go to the founders of the framers of the constitution? what about the revolutionaries of the 1770s? how do you frame legislation today? what is it about guidance in the culture wars? premodern, pre-darwin man? it is not really a profound question or answer. we are still inhabiting the political world. we are still on their constitution. unlike the french. they talk about napoleon, but they are on their 18th section of history, or something like that. >> these other people that created it. they continue to influence us. they were forged by history. over time, the united states was formed by philosophy.

it was the other emphasis at that moment in time. >> a nation founded on ideas. they are looking at ethnicity, religion, culture, whatever. whether or not you can point to a single date, we will get to that. some say 1619 is a better data than 1776. we will return to that issue. most of my relevant, for life, have the revolutionary era that is looking at more consciousness. unnecessarily a source of unity, but a common story. an origin story that was a source of instant ration for all americans. this is different for what he was doing with his editing. he wrote those famous words. timeless, immortal words. regardless of what they meant of the time, those words were a source of inspiration for all of us. the civil war, is the one that continues to divide us.

do you see that changing? do you see the revolution as a source of division now too quick >> may be a little bit. it is the event that most americans embrace. liberals and conservatives, it doesn't matter across the spectrum. everyone can find something that is inspiring. the job of scholars and research, has shown that there are problematic things in our past. >> this is the revolution of which it was a part. it was not complete. it did not end. you can also argument more than i do, that it kicked off. it is the first of its kind. it wasn't perfect. they all affect average, ordinary people. this is a different society for sure. something you mentioned. we were preparing it together. the declaration was always part

of a tradition in our country. it was a different source of inspiration. martin luther king, had the march on washington. the anniversary is coming up this year. the architects of our republicans wrote the constitution and the declaration of independence. they were signing a promissory note, to which every american was to fall. we were trying to cash the check. 1848, seneca falls was with cady stanton. her declaration sentiments were read. this was a model after the declaration of independence. september 2nd, 1945, in asia. >> vietnam, right? >> chi minh. they reclaimed the independent republic of vietnam, in hanoi, in front of a massive audience. they colonized vietnam. the first lines of his speech repeated verbatim the second paragraph of americans declaration. >> he doesn't change anything.

when jefferson writes those words, and they are adopted by the continental congress, all men are created equal. ever since then, and he groups in american society that didn't experience equality, certainly wanted a piece of that. whether it was marginalize people of color, women, seneca falls, all of them. they are created equal. it was a beacon. it was a goal for different groups. that is still true. it is still used in different social movements. it is incredibly powerful. >> it is a fair question. this is what they meant. this is versus the inspiration that came later. it is a fair question to what they did mean. just using the word men. did they mean only males? what about all human beings?

you can be really semantic about it. what is your take on it? >> you can see this in two ways. i think in an enlightened sense, it is facing reason. they are talking to universal. on one level, jefferson is certainly all men. all human. i think as an abstract level, in reality, certainly in jefferson's reality, that phrase has been written in a very legal action. all white men. that was the gain of the group of the revolution. they were not equal. i think that throughout time, folks have taken those words, and also thought of them in universal ways. abraham lincoln and the gettysburg address, he quotes jefferson. he is saying all men. a black and white are created equal.

one thing we should be grateful for, as americans, this country was born in this time. we had the ideals of universal liberty. >> i want to get to the philosophical inspiration for the writers of the declaration in a moment. the title of the series of podcasts, and dealing with this throughout history, is a radical declaration. was this radical? what would you mean if you could? >> yes. i think it was radical. that doesn't mean that it was completely original, it is drawing on a lot of things. the document that is most underrated that it is drawing on, is the virginia declaration of rights. primarily done by george mason. it also declared all men equal. it uses the word happiness. >> you didn't mean like i'm happy today. happiness as in content and a

satisfying life. >> they have the chance. they'll have a debate from the second continental congress about the words all men are created equal. we don't know. that is going too far. we have some of that evidence when it was discussed in the virginia legislature. there was some blowback. there was some discussion of what there will be. what are we saying here? in that particular debate, certainly with slavery, they decided that they were going to go with this universal enlightenment of equality. >> they are looking at the authors, and what they meant for america as a people. they were entitled for the same government as other nations of the earth, not the way that we talk about it today. we all have certain civil

liberties. we are trying to elaborate on what they were saying. >> you are right about the moment. different documents are interpreted over time. they have a life of their own. that certainly happens with declaration. that is one of the most exciting things. you teach american history. this is a big, important thing for students. they know how many groups come under this umbrella. you have phrases in the founding documents. it might have been limited at the time. they have become more expensive. >> they did not have chi minh in mind. >> they were riding through their career. years later, they actually interpreted this differently. >> this is absolutely the case. it >> certainly today, despite what i said before about the revolution, we can talk a little bit about that later. whether it is a proslavery

revolution, and if it is still a source of unity or division. for the most part, american see it as a common story. this is an good source of aspiration. we tend to project our own ideas back on those men as if they were writing in ages. did they get that sense that they were writing for all time? they are just mortal men. >> they know they are on the stage of history. they are thinking about this in the long term. a lot of the letters they are writing, they expect people to read them someday.

>> they are dealing with some other problems right there. they have been helping them for a while. we were trying to stay on this high-level action, maybe at another esoteric level. how do your students react to this when they talk about the declaration? what about the way they are discussing it now? are they excited by it? maybe they didn't mean it? >> it is a good question. some people are naturally skeptical. that is something i enjoy teaching them. it it always keeps you on your toes. when i teach the american revolution, and never has trouble enrolling. people are eager to learn about it. the students are hungry for the complexity. i think if they get the complexity, and if they learn

the full story, even if some of that is not flattering for the country, it actually makes them appreciate some of the rhetoric and the ideals that we were talking about more. >> we have only been talking about opening third of the declaration. >> we are talking about the radical lists. we need to remember that radicalism. that is why i open the subject like that, seeing that the ideas are fresh.

i don't think anyone has articulated this idea any better. it is all about the american revolution. i'm looking at both of my podcasts. >> i just want to introduce people. maybe they are not familiar with him. this is an introduction of this book rated the revolution did more. it transformed american societies. the changes were radical. they were extensive. the focus today, is what the revolution did not encompass. rather to highlight its failures to abolish slavery, for instance. it was the great significance of what it did accomplish. it was made possible by the anti-slavery and the women's rights movement of the 19th century. in fact, all of the curtains closed on the personal, social,

spiritual relationships of people. it was in the western world for at least two millennia. it brought dominance to ordinary people. it gave them dignity to their labor, in a manner unprecedented in history. i think to sum that up, would be to say that the colonists, no american citizens, view themselves as citizens rather than subjects. it was a revolution. a reordered society. people started to think about themselves, and their relationship to others, and our government differently. >> absolutely. >> very good. >> a subject on the ground is apparently unable.

they have all kinds of different positions based on birth. the citizens by definition, are equal. it was a fabulous book. there is a lot happening in that period. they included that definition. they were actually radical. they are writing about it in that book. they were prosecuting for their freedom and equality for women. i think it shows how powerful these ideas were. >> absolutely. enslaved africans were not included. shortly after the revolution, you start to see free black societies in the north. slavery starts to get white.

they are putting together petitions, and petitioning their local government, state government, and even congress. let's get rid of slavery. it took another 80 years, at least on a national level. 13th amendment in 1865. radical impulses, even if they don't include people from day one. they are running the place immediately. i think he was the most democratic of all the founders, probably still thought that people had lots of places in society. >> this is something that they are writing about. it is kind of a pandora's box. this is what they have opened. they are elite. most of them are elitists. they envision regular people. this is another equal way. this is what happens. a generation after the revolution. that is the point.

white men, who had no sort of equality in europe, particularly in britain, would experience that in the united states. >> they are scrutinizing the founders personal lives. calling them hypocrites. we have the bigger picture. we are looking through. was a lifelong slave owner. they were his flesh and blood. >> okay. we agree, the declaration was radical. it is not a long document. the constitution. they had grief and brevity. it is powerful. >> it is just like that. >> i was looking at this enlightenment. it is 900 pages long. they had the declaration of independence in two pages. probably since the high school or college history classes.

they were trying to get another pen from jefferson. over their information or inspiration? they were looking at the opening words. we are looking at the separate and equal stages from nature. they have recycled them. any reference to god, often people say, that is a reference to christianity. this was part of the national rights. historians have gone back and forth about how important these logins are right here. they have another comeback lately. they are looking at the influence on the revolution. >> this is a master synthesis. >> this is particularly in the second point of government.

he is also drawing from the scottish pool. david june and adam smith, some of equality comes from them. franklin, made a critical edit at one point. the original word said that we hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable. that is jefferson's language. franklin, says we hold these truths to be self-evident. that is straight from scottish morals. you just know things as a human being. it is amazing that with such a small edit, they are introducing a whole new branch of philosophy. >> if it is self evident, why do you have sense. absolutely. >> this was written a couple of

years ago. >> page 708. >> we are not making this stuff up. >> two intellectual marriages. one of them is out of wedlock. we are looking at classical republican theories. plato, for instance, was a democrat. he wasn't the proletarian that he imagined him to be. they are trying to participate with all of these citizens. with the seminal work, this is part of the ideological origins. they were kind of windowdressing. all educated men, looking at these classics. and the internet, pull them up. we are dressing up the arguments without really thinking about it.

>> i think that is right. different scholars are working on this. there is some debate. how deeply are they into this classical period? i agree with what you say. the entry card is looking at the debate. you have to show them that you are familiar. even george washington, was never greek. secondhand english version of this thing. using that, it was a sign of credibility. >> they were not trying to create a new one. >> that is right. >> others like him, weren't important. they weren't influencing it. were these enlightened ideas audible? was it part of the ordinary citizens? public opinion is still not quite sure where it is going in terms of independence. they have been on the way for a

year. >> definitely some of these other parts of the declaration that jefferson is writing about, is going down the way. the declaration is being read publicly. regular people might not know the origin of his idea. this is the society in which you are not born into this economy of people. you are actually equal. you are as equal to the highest member of the society. george washington, and king george the third. they are on the same stage as them. people can understand that and embrace. >> that had a profound influence. this is not the second continental congress? >> common sense, you are

absolutely right. this was right after the bible. for every copy, it is do or die. they have different taverns that have been passed around. it is certainly moving hearts and minds. from the members of congress, it is nothing of the they didn't know. the way politics work today, pressure can come from below. we know that is happening. shortly after, between april and june of 1776, there are almost 90. 88 local declarations. these are different communities. colonies and associations, all writing basically that we should be independent.

you have the representatives at the continental congress. this is what they believe. they have not affected thomas jefferson that much. they were affected by these ideas of local declarations. this includes the declaration of virginia. it is all in the air. >> is already some legitimacy. it meets for the first time in august. autumn, 1774. the idea of even having the congress is highly controversial. the crisis has been underway for many years already. they have rule in these different colonies. even later on. congress was superior to them. they had supremacy when it came to political debates.

>> that is the debate that continues on. in terms of the original congress, it is so much of america. it is true. it is made up it it is created. just like the country was created. it was inventive. the continent of congress was not created by parliament. it was put together by these different colonies. you are absolutely right. the colonies say that it has authority. the very first continental congress that you mentioned, more of the delegates have been to london than philadelphia. that shows that they have in common. it was this british identity. they don't think of themselves at that point as americans. it would take time for them to embrace the term american. >> first time you ever love massachusetts was to go to the first continental congress in philadelphia.

>> they were provincials. >> we started at 30,000 feet up. big picture. we had enlightened ideas. we are going to get to the ground level now. we're going to talk about the more pragmatic, prosaic concerns that the dell and the delegated members of the continental congress were looking at from this point. this is what they were thinking about. this is what they were grappling with. it is about the grievances. you told me that scholars are paying more attention to the grievances now rather than scoring open third. why is that? >> a few different reasons why they are in grievance. one way that it works, people are writing about the declaration of independence for so many years trade they have new insights. they have new knowledge. this was in the 70s with the bicentennial incident. they have one person more than

anyone else. they want to do a lot of things. >> it is it eclectic? they're trying to get you more into what is on the ground. >> things actually happen. they have different grievances. they are talking about it. >> they have different public documents. >> we have a couple of things going on. this was all written in 1689. right after the glorious revolution. this is the way that english- speaking people are looking at

co-independence. at a certain point, the american say that they are looking at the parliament. they have that last connection. they are looking at other colonists. they were more royalists than abel. for a long time, actually loved the english monitor. >> is part of a different market. >> this is what it is. true americans, honoring privilege. they have a silly pageant. >> that is your own protest. >> this was a fairly popular figure for a while. >> even george second, was

right here. this is the first to do so. george ii, was coming up grade they were not popular. when he died, the americans were so sad. they had all of them ready to go. they had so much optimism and hope for george iii. that quickly dissipates. this was giving the different policies that were under pursuit. >> something like 28? 27? >> 27 grievances. >> all of them are right here. he has refused. it he has revisited this. they have another biography.

>> we have the misunderstood rain. >> they had other scholars ready to go. >> it was illogical. they were trying to have these different grievances. that one actually didn't matter. >> 27 grievances. >> he has excited it. >> this is the known rule of warfare. this was because of all ages, and their condition. that is a little bit high purpose. >> we don't read into that on

july 4th. >> on the one hand, they are looking at slave results. they are looking at indian warfare on the front. this is the expo factor justification that is already on the way. do you agree? >> it is even more than that opening part. we talked about the hard politics. they were trying to attract supporters. i think we would say that today in the 21st century. this is racist language. this is terrible language against native americans. what he is saying, insight of domestic insurrection, he's talking about slave rebellion, particularly in the government near virginia. free african-americans came to the british side. this is part of the revolution that i think makes it interesting and complex. the majority of african- americans and native americans at the time, are siding with britain. it is one of those things again.

they are excited to learn. it opens their mind to some of the other parts of the document. >> they have a result of the revolutionary war. that is the difference and sang the british were trying to end slavery, or that any colonists fought the revolution, declared independence, broke with the crown, to defend slavery. it takes some real evidence, and then causes a false conclusion. the american revolution was not part of slavery. despite what jefferson was writing right here. especially november 27th. >> this is what i'm teaching about. it is like the civil war. no professional scholar that i know of right now, would disagree with the statement that slavery costs a school. it does not cause the civil war. you can't make the same blanket statement about anything for the american revolution. there all of these policies. this is going up near the

1770s. that all comes together. the big point that the americans are getting at, they want us to control their own destiny. they want to determine what would happen in their lives. if there was one thing that did cause independence, and pushes it over the edge, it is the war. the war starts more than a year before the declaration. >> he was already in charge of washington. he was taking charge of the army. they are enacted >> is never really materialized. you can tell that they are unpopular. you can tell that the declaration is right here. i'm not different in saying slavery caused the direct revolution. is it a tribute quote?

you don't know. it is completed. >> christmas eve of 1774, writing these papers. these are definitive. he has already lost by that point. i don't know if she it should be called the tipping point. all people who reach right here, get their freedom. if that was true, that it happened. they enslaved black people. military emancipation was different. any colonists, it is the language of the 1619 project now. >> it was a good correction. sometimes the way both of the politics and the scholarships work sometimes, there is an over direction. very few people knew who they were. >> they didn't think slavery had anything at all. this is in the exaggeration that it would be caused by all

of this. >> if we land somewhere, they are in that spectrum. that is productive. >> the initial line is looking at the primary cause. as far as the slave results, they were threatening or maybe trying to instigate, they never realize. >> the irony, everything that he does, backfires. >> he was an in slavery himself. many african-americans did use traditional lines. some of those were terrible. >> he is not a humanitarian. that whole episode is prompted by other things that they were trying to capitalize on. >> of course, the rebellion was already underway in virginia. >> absolutely. >> we are covering that, and

part of others. it very, very important. >> let's get into the timing of the declaration. there is this gray area. the com1 this were both in rebellion. they weren't quite independent. >> their own demands, even moderate demands in all of this behavior, they would not ask of that situation where they did not have authority over the colonies. >> he performed extralegal assemblies. the royal assemblies and governors are out. they are defying acts of parliament, or defending

congress. the battle was near june 1775. the colonists, eventually viewed governments. the governments. these are not potential committees. 1775, king george the third claims america the state of rebellion. the wi-fi was working that way. some was in october. >> yes, october. >> they are in opening. >> this is for three months. >> why did it take another eight months or so to declare that? >> that gets back to what we are talking about before, looking at how british these people were. it is a term that has been at the academy for a long time. done at the high school, it is part of u.s. history.

basically, what it means over the course of the colonial period, the comb the student necessarily become more and more american overtime. a lot of evidence over the course of the 18th century, actually has the more and more british culturally. >> style and fashion. all kinds of things. they had all of these consumptions. think about all of that. he really likes being british. this is off of the indian war in 1763. we are super happy that they are on the winning side. they are the freest people in the world.

it is countercyclical. it goes against the grain of what would happen. you are expecting them to be part of canada forever. they have all these different policies. they change. >> another factor to delay the independence. they are all independent now. are they simply letting you know? are they moving forward? what is the public opinion? >> that is still very mixed. they have had radicals in the continental congress. not fight right away. moderate, like john dickinson of pennsylvania. they urges caution. is it possible to reconstruct possible opinions? >> is a big thing that the

scholars are working on. we have to do some broad generalizations of the numbers. generalizing broadly, you think around 20% are very hard-core loyalists. they are going to stick with the kingdom. this is what we were thinking of. a vast majority of people are not looking at the independence of the point of this declaration. that is one reason why i think the war matter so much. the outcome of the war, the individual battles in different areas, you see people switching from side to side depending on what the area is. >> this is against the most powerful empire in the world.

that was the impulse to declare it. we tend to think of the american revolution sometimes as elitists. this is the colonial attire. they have different enlightenment ideas. in some ways, a civil war. >> this is what the scholars have written about in the last second. this is how it can be. in some ways, this is what they might say. american civil war is right here. it divides families and communities. not just whole regions. >> mobs would show up to a loyalists house to destroy his car, and his fellows in the community. >> the boston tea party was an active person. >> most famous case of that.

>> this is something they are doing this days. >> will finally tips the continental congress into declaring independence in july? are they giving another speech in october of 1775? i talked about how we declare the colonists to be in rebellion in august. they're looking at another open parliament, saying the rebels are authors of other conspiracies. that reaches january, at the same time that common sense comes out. they have these other acts, looking at all of the other conversations at sea. that is still leaving us about four months away from july. what is the final kick in the rear? >> all of these things are incredibly important. they were looking at these other december 17th, 7075 days. >> you learn about that in

february. >> that takes several months to learn. >> what do you think that is? the conus are no longer under the protection of the crown. essentially, it is the whole point of being subject to having allegiance to the monarch. they will protect you. all of a sudden, what great britain is saying, is that you are not under our protection anymore. we are waging war on you. the culmination of all of those things, and the exhilaration of congress, explains the july date. a rumor is spreading in the american colony. they are trying to partition. they can help put down the american rebellion. we think the british navy actually planted this idea. they started the rumor to

discourage the americans from becoming allies with france. you can't trust french. that happened june 1776. >> maybe one month prior. >> we are working with is information now. >> these are some of the things that we still don't know. >> perfect information. they were very much into it. absolutely. >> from the days of the republic, this is what they have said. it is also about what they have said to the federal federations. it was agreed to on july 2nd. july 4th, will have them greeted warmly. >> yes and no. this was among that hard-core 30%. as i said, congress is lagging behind a lot of the country on that. there have already been 90

declarations. in some ways, what have you been waiting for? i think there is some relief and support. there are a lot of apprehensions. from the beginning, just as they are declaring independence, a real army is arriving. >> up to that point, they have been fighting. they are losing everywhere. this is up until the east coast. nothing is going to change, beginning with the battle. >> is pragmatic. they are trying to drive deliberations in this content. the british were hiring mercenaries also. they mean business essentially. the british are sending an army. they are hiring mercenaries. they are coming to kill us to crush us. >> somehow, the british didn't try very hard. they could have done more to

win. the best historian on this, is that a university. they are doing what they can. these are critical situations. in our own wars of the 21st century, we know how hard it is. >> how is the way historians teach the revolution changing? we have been talking about it here during our discussion. have you changed the way you teach?

>> i'm glad to bring in a lot of these new perspectives. when i start doing it, there are the youngest of the ocean in my history. now, we are counting in a certain way. those can help. i think it is about how you look at it. sometimes, when you are not immersed in this period, and looking at things closely, it does seem like these magic words came down. when you get into the granular, you realize how good it really was. >> from their point of view, they are in charge. i don't know where they would be without a fight. we did not get to the taxes.

>> no taxation without representation. we made it through a progress podcast just on that alone. >> it wasn't the sense of how much money the americans actually spent. they get through appeals. they don't have to pay them. >> they were less taxed than other subjects in england. when the british said to americans that they had a sweet deal, they weren't wrong. what happens over time, the americans might move the goalpost a little bit. they have gone from no taxation without representation, to no legislation without representation. they end in 1776, by saying that we don't want to do anything for us. no taxes, or anything else. it takes them so long. it takes them 12 years to reach that point. they are ready to sever all of

the bonds. >> i said, life is pretty busy for a typical person in the 18th century. free, white men. >> armor, labor, not compared to today. >> this gets you to the other ones too. >> yes. >> i want to talk about what is going on briefly, or maybe even now at george washington university. the nicknames of his sports team is no longer the t most people on the left, view our past is maybe not an inspiration. he wrote a piece, i have it right here, it is the george

washington attachment. >> it is a newspaper. >> it is always dangerous when a faculty member writes one of these. >> george washington, was never part of the colonial action. you said that it is not unreasonable to say colonialism. it is a different texture. >> they were trying to change it anyways. >> they are now a revolutionary. right off the top, that is it. >> you are meeting a lot of revolutionaries. >> this name, when i joined in 2012, i always thought it was a strange name that never really fit george washington very well. he was a nationalist. perfect game would be the nationals. >> whenever he used the loon, or the colonial term, he

thought it was provincial and small minded. he wanted the people of the united states to think of themselves as americans, not in some way connected to their former colors. >> colonialism, has a wretched history. >> i also told him that there is a good george washington university. >> there was a student as a. >> the university should change its name. don't call it george washington anymore very the university is not dropping the name george washington. >> i'm always looking at the miami task force. >> there will be no change in

that committee. >> we certainly support the rights of our students to share their opinion. there is no group or movement of students that are looking at the drop during washington. now, i can't predict the future. at least for now, we are looking at the george washington revolution. >> we are looking at statues and memorials. somebody has claims to significant actions, and not just slavery. washington, versus the slave traders trying to describe our country, this includes jefferson davis. they do not deserve that. their only claim to historical significance is slavery and civil war. george washington is different. it doesn't mean we should put him on a metaphorical pedestal. >> it is his full legacy.

slavery also changed quite a bit from the 18th century. as is until the 19th. that has to be a subject. it is hard to pinpoint us as the start of the nation. especially the declaration of independence. we are on our second constitution. it is as good as any july 4th. >> in an official sense, there are people in the congress, especially john adams, that thought july 2nd was a magical day. that is the day that they pass the resolution bill. it shows how powerful the declaration was. this document, could have been real plain. it could have served a purpose that was just a sentence or two. it could have been real plain, served a basic purpose of -- , >> one sentence? >> yeah. it could have just been that resolution reprinted.