my uncle was wounded but they both came home alive. and that's all the time that we have for this program. greg is a george washington history and international affairs professor. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you very much for having me again. weekends on c-span two are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's story. on sunday, book tv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors read funding for c-span two comes from these television companies and more, including cox. >> we are so excited to.

be here to celebrate.to. we are so excited to be here to celebrate ritual for the 272. the families who were enslaved to build the american catholic church. in 1838 a group of america's most prominent catholic priests sold 272 enslaved people to save the largest mission project. which is now georgetown university. in this groundbreaking account, professor rachel swarns follows one family for nearly 2 centuries of indentured servitude and and pavement to uncover the harrowing origins tory of the catholic church and the united dates. rachel swarns is a journalist, author and associate assessor of journalism at new york university writing about race and race relations is a contributing writer for the new york times. for articles about georgetown

university's roots and slavery touched off a series about painful ties to this section of history. an endowment for the humanities, the leon levy center for biography, the biographers international organization among others. as a correspondent for the times, she reported from russia, cuba, guatemala, and a southern africa, covering immigration and presidential politics, and michelle obama and her role in the obama white house. she is the author of american tapestry, the story of the black, white, and multiracial ancestors of michelle obama and the author of unseen, unpublished like us ore from the new york photo archives. she will be joined in

conversation today by michelle martin, the host of morning edition. she was previously the weakened host of all things considered and the consider this saturday podcast where she drew on her deep reporting and interviewing experience to dig into the week's news. she has over 25 years of experience as a journalist. please welcoming and joining rachel swarns and michelle martin. >> a host of morning edition. friendly amendment. there are four of us. do not get me in trouble. well,. >> welcome home. >> glad to have you back in d.c. quite a journey. >> how many of you read the original new york times piece in 2016? i know it has been a while. do you remember? do you ever wonder when

somebody writes a particularly reported article and then a book comes out, if there is more to say? you're like is the really more to say? i was wondering why you understood or when you understood that there was so much more to say. what was it after the first piece which was so impactful and is so deeply reported in so socking -- shocking to some that made you understand there was much more to say? >> it is so cool to be sitting alongside you and it to you here after so many years. i think it might be useful to talk a little bit about how i even came to this dory. it started in 2015. students were protesting at georgetown. they were concerned about two buildings that carried the names of two of the priest who happened to be early presidents who had august rated this.

the administration changed the name. they had been considering changing the names even before that. ng the names even before but the protest caught the eye of a georgetown alum. a tech company in cambridge who said okay, protests about the buildings and about the history, changing the names. but the 272, what happened to them? reached out to a faculty member at georgetown. mentioned that georgetown had already been looking into this and trying to think about its own history and how to wrestle with it. and said okay, what happened to their descendents lacks and he was told they all died. they all died? nearly 300 people, they all died? no descendents? that seems impossible to him. there were certainly other people in the working group at

georgetown who were descendents, but this guy said there weren't. so this guy said to himself that makes absolutely no sense. and richard was someone, he is a white guy, ceo of a tech company, republican guy who had not been involved in racial justice issues in any way before. but he loves georgetown. and he says, you know, i think we kind of owe something to these people. this schools existence is connected to these people. he hired a genealogist who started digging. he reached out to a colleague of mine at the times who was on the business side, business reporter, rather and said hey, i have an exclusive for the times about a sale in the 1830s

that benefited georgetown and she was kind of like, okay. interesting. is that even a story? so it's my great, great fortune that she did not just delete the email. this is before the 1619 project. this was not the kind of reporting that we typically do. she remembered there was someone on the half who might have a sense of it. remembered the michelle obama ancestors, tracing them back to the 1800s. she forwarded the email to me. immediately i knew it was a story. my reporting about michelle obama ancestors had allowed me to ask or how slavery shaped american families. i thought this would be the next step, to look at how slavery shaped one of our elite

institutions. what i did not know was who were the 272? that is what i needed to find out, what i wanted to find out. >> can i just tell you? i was so moved by every aspect of that story. i did not understand the back story until i read the books. think about this. can we just marinate in that for a minute? this white guy who has not not very much about slavery or enslavement, didn't have any connection to it and understands that an institution that he cares deeply about is deeply enmeshed in it and he digs into his pocket, does some work and reaches out to you and your colleague reaches out to you and there we have it. you know, first of all, that is reporting 101, folks, and this is why i always tell my interns

answer the mail, please. please do read your email. >> i would say ask a very fundamental question. who were they? what were their names? >> this is a quote from the book. this is not a disembodied group of people who are nameless and faceless. these are real people with real names and real descendents. that's what he felt. >> let us just ask if there are any among us today who are direct connected to this story? will you show yourself? can you stand? can we welcome and honor you? thank you for being here. thank you for being here. >> we're still here. my family is telling of in maryland.

>> we're glad you're still here. thank you for being here and allowing your dory to rise. your article focuses on georgetown. in the book it focuses on the bigger story of the role of slavery in the building of the american catholic church. what was it and why was it so important? >> i started again by looking at this. i think it would be helpful to tell a quick story that will make you understand how i got from this to the larger picture. to do that i just want to tell a story which i tell a lot. as a journalist and not a historian, i often think about when you are writing about slavery, being aware that there are a lot of folks who are going to say no, thank you. turn the page. turn your head. how do you bring that story to people? how do you get people to hear?

i have found the best way to get people to hear his get a story that is compelling to introduce the families that people might want to read about. talking about the 272 and how i got to georgetown and the catholic church, i like to bring people back to november 1838 to give you a sense of what it was like for these people. in 1838, these folks were brought from southern maryland to alexandria, virginia. if you've been there, you would've seen them. scores of people being loaded onto a ship, forcibly loaded. elderly people, parents, children, babies. witnesses describe people falling to their knees and weeping, begging for mercy. these are people who were being torn from other people they loved and the world that they knew and being shipped down south.

they were owned by the nation's most powerful priest as you've heard before, who happened to be among the largest slaveholders in maryland. they were selling these folks as times got hard as people did because they were their most prized assets and they wanted to save the school. as i started digging and realizing, okay, i happen to be black and catholic and i had no idea priest were involved in the slave trade. no i give it slavery helped save this institution. i started looking at the priest and looking at this history. what i learned was it was not just georgetown. the jesuits built the early catholic church, first in the british colony and then in early america. these priest to relied on slave labor and the slaves tells built the first archdiocese, the first cathedral.

early conference. priest who consoled people go to the first catholic seminary. the underpinnings of the church were built by priest who were deeply involved in slavery. >> the catholic church in the united states as we know it today would not exist without the enslaved. >> that's right point >> one of the things that also struck me about the book is that you describe how oppression led to oppression. how interweaves the various forms of oppression have been. i found that very, very and the rest in and of course, upsetting. could you talk about the catholic church and their attitude towards indigenous people? and how their attitude towards

indigenous people and kind of a transformation of attitude towards indigenous people kind of led to its except vince of the enslavement of people of african descent which i found fascinating. >> one of the things that is fascinating about the catholic church, and we should be very clear that it's not just the catholic church, right? slavery is foundational for a lot of things. but the catholic priest, unlike -- there are white people who viewed black people as brutes and animals, purely. catholic people say no, we think they have souls and we want to nurture their souls that we are okay about an living room and telling their bodies and people say, how is that possible? and what did rome have to say? that is what michelle is getting at. it is interesting. slavery is an ancient practice as we know. it's in the bible. talking about the responsibilities of slaves and

masters. when europeans went into africa and then in the america has, the slave to were indigenous people initially and there were protests by priest. rome said okay, we want to do that. but there was still an insatiable need for labor. so africans filled the gap. and rome remained silent about africans, too. if you also want to look at oppression leading to oppression, the priest who came to maryland came from england where they were persecuted red catholics were persecuted. maryland was a refuge for catholics. in trying to get themselves to be recognized as establishments to society, slavery was part of

the establishment to society and they became part of that. it is important to know that there were always voices who raised questions. there were priests all along the way had concerns about it. one of the other things that i found fascinating is the times when catholics were -- not persecuted, but marginalized within the politics of maryland. because protestants wouldn't work for them and once again, they turned to enslaved africans in order to save their properties and livelihood. you share that you are also -- you identify as catholic. from birth, i assume? >> yes, cradle catholic. >> you mind if i ask how this recording -- reporting, how it influenced your faith walk? did it challenge your faith walk in any way x

>> it's interesting. i was doing this work. i am a practicing catholic. you know, i'm going through these records. some of these records are -- i've been doing this kind of research for a long time. you know, bracing records, if you are writing about enslaved people, you are writing about people who were viewed as property. that is what you're looking for. tax records. property records. you are looking to see the z state records that lists coffee tables. the tablecloth. the pigs, the dishes, the list of the human beings. that is sobering. then i go to mass, right? i think what would have been interesting to me is the families themselves and the

experience of the families themselves. i tell this tory of one family and particular, the mahoney family. and the matriarch event family. a woman by the name of and joyce arrived a few decades after the first priest arrived. she is a free person. an indentured servant who is stolen and sold into slavery by catholic gentry. she holds on to the one thing she has, which is her story. she tells anyone who will listen that she should have been free and that her liberty was stolen and that she tells her children that, her grandchildren that. the story is passed on. people who are descendents resist. two of them are killed. they go to court and sue the jesuits. some of them win freedom that way.

some of them don't. harry mahoney saves the church's wealth in the war of eight and 12 and guarded a pledge to the jesuits that neither he nor his family would ever be sold. a pledge that is broken in 1838. at times, the priest required a black people to go to mass, to dissipate in the sacraments. there were penalties for not doing that. there is an instance where two families, priests decided that two families who had aged -- each committed infidelity should be punished. they sold their children. would you stay catholic after your priest had split up your family? interestingly, a number of people stayed.

a number of people left thousands left because the church remained segregated afterwards. but members of this mahoney family, many of them's data. not only did this day but they became leaders, religious leaders some, and worked to make the church true to its ideal of being a universal church. they set up like parishes. to join and ran schools for black children. some of their descendents are catholic to this day and those records, the sacramental records, have been really important to genealogists and that to myself in terms of tracking these families. and you know, these descendents who are among us now, many of them still calf like, had been in the fourth round at georgetown to recognize its

history. i look at those folks and in a crazy way, i find some inspiration there. i see folks who said to themselves this church does not belong to the sinful men who are in it. this church, they don't control god, they don't control, you know, the son, the holy spirit, none of that. this is their church. they decided to make it that way. to me, that inspires me. i'm still going. >> i will remind you this is a conversation we can all participate in. i hate to make this a fitness contest, but my recommendation would be we are going to turn to questions for you in just a minute or two. if you have one that you would like to share, if you would wraps begin making your way to the microphone. you mentioned you are not a historian. but historians and journalists

are in conversation with each other. i would like to ask -- week -- we call it the first draft of history. i don't know what that history term would be. not even using the word. but this wasn't really how you got started in journalism, right? you got started to find out what's around you right now, not what happened 354 years ago. i was interested in whether -- was there any part of yourself that you had to transform to do this work? you had to transform your practice in some way? >> there was a lot of learning involved. i realized it was so much about american history even as a reasonably educated person that i just did not know. i have always been a records person. i covered towards early in my career. local and federal courts. i have always been a records person.

as a journalist and records have been, like you, kind of important and interesting to me. i had to help learn a whole swath of records. but i think i have also been someone who always loves a good mystery. the hunt for me is really, really interesting. it was really when i got started on the article that led me to the book about michelle obama. i was searching for her great my great grandfather. who was born into slavery and was biracial and i had gone to a cemetery and i was amazed that i could go to the archives and find where he is buried, the plot, the number, who was next to him. i thought i had everything, had it all together and that i got to the cemetery in birmingham. this old, neglected african- american cemetery with the grass up to my knees and the tombstone toppled and as many

of you know, even the dead were segregated back in the day in the south. i spent an entire day there completely unsuccessful. never found his tombstone. but there was something about that. just something about that that grabbed me. i thought you know, there is nothing i would rather be doing than this. i came home to my husband and said, good lord. i don't know what happened but something happened to me out there. maybe i need to get another degree. he said maybe not that. >> like what are you ntdoing? >> but you know, when a publisher approached me after the story ran, he said okay. that's the thing. it was just kind of this weird thing that just kind of got me. it is my midlife crisis about the 19th century.

i don't know. yeah. >> let's go to conversation. questions and thoughts now, please join us. you know who we are. we would love to know who you are. >> my name is nathan. i am a recent graduate of montgomery college. i am hoping to teach american history in schools overseas. that's something that i feel very passionately about. i began reading the book. one thing that struck me in particular was reading about the story of solomon, and in particular, in particular about the very emotional details of his homecoming. what i was wondering, what i was wondering, what i was wondering is in the course of your research, what did you

think was, what did you believe to be among the most striking parallels and contrast between his story and that of anna and louisa? >> good question. >> if you sought 12 users live, he was a free man in the north, kidnapped and put back into slavery. having conversations from people who were wrongly re- enslaved. and his story is very and drop is because as i mentioned one of the challenges when writing about in slave people is the material, frankly. it is really hard to find the material. enslaved people were by law and practice hard from learning to read and write, so the kinds of

things you would rely on, like letters and journals and that kind of thing, aren't there. you are looking for those records that i've mentioned. you are also looking for contemporaneous voices of people at the time who could illuminate something for you. he was someone who was shipped to louisiana and wrote vividly about a lot of things about what new orleans was like, about what plantation life was like, and that was very instruct dave. he also wrote about being reunited with his family and unfortunately, this was not thing that happened to the two sisters who were split by the sale. but his experience was very helpful and you get to hear his voice. thank you. >> hi, i am visiting from new york. great talk. i am wondering also, reading

about the other channel which broke. the thing i've been reading about, the boarding schools -- was that all in terms of the same -- or how is that? >> i think you are talking about the indigenous boarding schools. >> i'm glad you mentioned that. i would not want my introduction of the subject about oppression leading to oppression for different views to make people think that indigenous people were so beautifully treated. we are now seeing the way in which the phrase was kill the indian to save the man. karen this abuse is that people were subjected to emotionally and spiritually. and all of that is coming to light now. the truth is i don't have an answer for you i wish i did.

i don't. but you know, i can certainly see and ask the same kinds of questions because it certainly feels like there are parallels there. >> i can see the parallels being that people who have the power felt that they had the authority to develop different grades of humanity. you are this grade or this level of human. if you're this level of human, this is what you get. that seems to be a piece. >> and you know, tearing families apart. >> and destroying their culture and to substituting your own because you have determined that it is superior. others who would like to join our conversation? >> i just wanted to mention to the guy that michelle was also on nightline for decades.

anyway, i don't really know where to begin here. selling slaves, i mean, then the priests molested thousands and thousands of children. i have a really hard time with all of this. >> where are you going with this? >> i am just saying, people, once they hear all of this, who is the cardinal of the district of columbia was defrocked and now he is re-indicted for what he did. and it's like, do these people have no shame? it's okay to sell slaves? it's okay to molest kids? i don't know? what is the religion about if this is what you do when you are a religious person? i don't know.

i just, you know, i was wondering if any of this came into, and if any of the slaves -- many slaves were in regulated and things like that, so does any of this come into your story line of, you know, some of these people are descendents of slaveowners, maybe priest's. does this come out? >> my book does not deal at all with the sexual scandals of the church. you know, there is a lot of work in journalism, very important work in journalism that has been done to expose that. i would say that what i do is try to show kind of what -- how slavery helped build the church. what the priest did and how they treated people.

again, the fact that it wasn't just the catholic church, episcopal church or the protestant church. this was sadly what was happening at the time, but you know, it's an ugly, ugly history. there is no way around it. the reason why it shocked me was because enslaved people have been left largely out of the story that the catholic church traditionally tells about it self, and that's true. it's also true and important to note, as i mentioned before, that there were priest who raised questions and concerns about this. it is important because one thing that you often hear when talking about slavery or's body in lavery is people who say don't bring your morality to the table here. it was legal. it was the time, so you can't bring your 21st-century

judgment to it, but the truth is within the catholic church at that time, there were priests who were raising questions, protesting, priest who, you know, one of them that i write about in the book is a guy by the name of joseph carberry who ran a plantation where the mahoney family was enslaved. when he learned that the sale was coming, he objected. when he was overruled when the traders came, he encouraged members of the family to rise. what is complicated about that, i think oh, gosh, he is awesome, but some of the mahoney's ran it i mentioned the two sisters, luisa and anna. luisa runs with her mother and hides in the woods. the ships leave and take her sister and another sister away.

then they return to the plantation or their welcomed back by joseph carberry into slavery where they remain. one of the last people in the records owned but i the jesuits. it was a complicated situation. unfortunately it just wasn't with in the purview of the reporting that i did. >> who else would like to join the conversation? >> hello. my name is kyla matthews. on the fourth rate granddaughter of luisa mahoney. i'm also advising to well at georgetown law. from what i have experienced i would say that the university

is more responsive. it tends to be more reactive than proactive live in their accountability effort. they are especially motivated by press and media. i'm wondering from the point of view of a journalist what you think the most effective way to kind of preserve this narrative and keep attention on this story would be, just with our collective attention spans the way it is? >> it's a good question. just in case some of you don't know, in 2016, one of the things georgetown did was offer legacy status, preference and admissions to descendents who are interested in going to georgetown. change the names of the building. as you know, the institute is now coming online.

created a fund. students actually protested and said, hey, georgetown, you need to do more for these descendents. they had a referendum and said we will tax ourselves, in effect. we will and to toot a fee to raise money for descendents because they felt the university should do more. the university said no, we are not going to do that and we will raise $400,000 per year for programs that and if it descendents. that program just got underway this year. $200,000 has been distributed. the jesuits for their part, georgetown and the jesuits both apologized. the jesuits partnered with a group of descendents and promised to raise $100 million to benefit racial reconciliation programs and programs for descendents. that would be the largest effort made by the roman

catholic church in america to address his history. it has had a slow start. it has not raised as much money as they had hoped. as you might imagine, descendents are having mixed feelings about all of these things. they are asking how should this look? they have their own ideas about how this should look. the question you asked is kind of how to keep them focused on what needs to happen. i am a journalist, so i'm not in the advocate to see field. it not what i do. i can say from experience and in this array, pressure from and raising attention to issues involving descendents has certainly drawn media

attention. covering and fusions, we have done a lot of that, you know. that sometimes can be helpful. i would say that georgetown has been criticized on all sides by descendents, by people who think they need to do more, by alums who are like, what are you doing and where you going with this? what is certainly true is that they have been right in the thick of what is now a growing movement among institutions and municipalities around the country. to acknowledge and try to grapple with this history. talking about places like evans and or the state of california. this is all happening here. i never thought i would see it. the western you are asking, you know my how do we make them do more? i think part of that is what

you guys have done as descendents, which is when my first story ran, the georgetown project, they identified a handful of descendents. they are now known to have 6000 descendents. when people find out this history and you can imagine what it might be like to find out this kind of history that you are from ancestors who were sold to save this and to tuition. people wept, people raged, and then they organized. i think that organization and that pressure has had an impact. >> let me ask you this. we have had two questions now, thank you, about the teaching of history, what role history should play in our current moment. your book arrived at a moment of intense backlash about even

teaching history, this kind of history in and the duchenne's. not just in colleges, people being fired for showing classic works. you talk about the fact that you started this work. your initial article was before some of the work that was so polarized like the 1619 project or whatever, fair or unfair. now it is a moment where people are literally getting work thrown out because one person complained because they don't like it. i am interested on your take on that. >> we all know history is a battleground right now. particularly history involving race and history involving the teaching about race and slavery. when i first wrote the article in 2016, this kind of work felt urgent. it feels even more urgent to me

now. >> did it feel dangerous, though? there are colleagues of yours who no longer allow their address to be known. i've done interviews where they want tell us what city they are in because of fear of threat to their family with children. i'm just curious if you feel similarly front presenting this work. you have come here voluntarily. you are clearly interested, open and receptive to what she has to say, the work she has done. i guarantee it's not the same in other places. >> is journalist, we all are more mindful then we might have been a couple of years ago. certainly i should say that members of my family have thought about it, you know, worried a bit about it. in terms of where this land and how people respond. as i said to me, it feels

urgent and i can't shy away from doing the work. i am also realistic and mindful and careful. >> sure. >> my name is grant. wednesday i will just drive into the grocery store. decided to turn on fresh air with terry gross and you were on. i was going to say it was a wonderful day. 15 minutes or less, i really got into the story. 30 minutes or less i started getting angry. 45 minutes or less i was furious. so to piggyback on some of the comments, 45 minutes, i got that angry, how do you do your research without gritting your teeth along the way? and with the universities that

are widespread who benefited from slavery, with affirmative action coming down, how are universities compelled with the decision if it comes down against affirmative action, does that handcuff the universities with this legacy issue that you've exposed? is this suddenly a different kind of issue that they are going to have with schools? now handcuffed because of a decision. the reasons why, but you know what i'm talking about. >> is to westerns there. one is about how do you do this work and the thing, as i mentioned, it is not easy work to do.

there are times when you know, where, you know, i come across the document i read something, and i just have to stop. i have to take a breath, close my eyes. take another breath. i keep going because we need to know. if i don't look, or if i look away, i think this work needs to be done. >> is it difficult to approach knowing what you're ready to get into? >> here's the thing. you it's it's terrifying. i mean, some sometimes i what i do, i think, again, as a journalist to be able tell the

story, i need to kind of put myself there. so i've conversations with my son, who's a teenager. and, you know, i think about those sisters, louisa and anna and the priest telling them, you've got to run. and i had two children, young children. they had elderly parents. what do you do? do you run? what do you do? you know, i, i, you know, those things weigh on me, you know. but but the thing that's important to know, though, too, is that this is a story of heartbreak for sure. but it is also a story of resistance and struggle. it's also a story of family and faith and remember that i came to this as someone, a catholic woman who had never heard that catholic enslaved anybody. i had never heard anything.

i did not know about these people. so i very motivated and to tell a story that i felt had not been told. enslaved people had been left out of the. and so that what kept me going now on affirmative i was going to say that we've got about five who would love to be part of our conversation. yes you to a quick movie movie so you know i would say affirmative is colleges i'm a professor at nyu colleges all across the country are bracing for this and readying for it. it's not, you know, part of my purview but you're right that a lot of are going to be trying to figure out what to do and and i will leave it alone. well, i asked toni morrison that question once, that story that you just asked. i asked her, you know, because some of her books are so deeply disturbing. and so the details and i said, is it hard for you to write these stories? she said, as hard as it was to live them right.

hi. how how is everyone this evening? my name is julie hawkins and is i am from southern maryland. my mom was from st mary's. my dad was from charles. i grew up strictly catholic where i came from in southern maryland like she said earlier, where we're from, that was the seat of catholicism. i know any of the religion until i left st county to go to college because everybody i grew up with was catholic. catholic catholicism wasn't it wasn't a religion for us. it was our way of life. so i didn't hear this story until about 2015. i on ancestry and our history was we're from here. we were from southern maryland, nowhere else. i kept connecting to someone down in louisiana and alabama and we went back and forth about, well, i know you're from the deep south, yada, yada make the story short because long winded about 2016, i started hearing about the grew to seven to also my son was at gonzaga

college school in washington d.c. which also benefited right which also benefited with the students there because of the story started doing their own research of the people at gonzaga. my son thomas's mom there talking about your home, st mary's and the priest, as he said. so old people from southern maryland. my grandmother had just we came from a family where i mean i had friends that would come down white friends that felt we were part italian because my grandmother would be saying the rosary every day. that's all we knew i mean, seriously, every day. no being if you needed something. she knew every saint to call to get you going. if you lost something of it. you know, you catholics know what i mean. it's not just the catholic, okay, so bridget, celine is a friend of mine. i started talking to richard and he started filling me in along with other duties. 17. but here's the thing from people. for me, being from southern maryland, i'm not a part of the families that was sold, but we are the part of the fans who lost family. right. and we want to find them.

as a matter of fact, i'll go ahead and do my little stint now. but we're doing i got money from georgetown, me and a team to do a gathering in maryland over labor day weekend. so anybody that would like to come who is a descendant, we would welcome you because the maryland side, we're still trying to figure out who are the people we lost. but my family. we have etonians, i have bona. she knows the surnames. i'm a hawkins. we have dorsey. have a mason and we're still in maryland. but let me tell you this. when i found this out, i was so glad my grandmother just passed i was so glad because she would have been devastated. we looked up, i mean, catholics. so it was our way of life. when i found out i like someone just said, i cried, i became angry. and i even thought about the catholic church. i'm catholic to this day. my entire family had to think through it, talk myself through it. but this is what i want to know. and just like just said, i grew up five miles from newtown manor, about ten miles from saint, and it goes my grandmother's bones family was from some kind of a plantation.

these are the plantations. we never heard this story at all. i went to catholic school. everybody i had priest and nuns, and then i came from a community that was very you know, they honored their black history. they on it. we never heard this story. i've never heard of it. never we never heard it from the we never heard it from the jesuits. would i guess, you know, never think about they wouldn't want you to know. we never heard about it. i was even wondering, you know, like my grandmother, i was one and it was so much trauma. people were hiding that they just didn't talk about it. and as the generations went on, it just went away because i'm from south america, i'm from all these areas where the plantations were. yeah, well, i feel like there's a book in you and you might consider. everybody keeps telling me, well, one you like that? did you have a specific question for rachel? you know, i just wanted to share that, but i did have the question. do you think it was that we did not know about this at all? so i think sometimes it was, you

know, there's some some families where people have told me they thought their elders deliberately didn't tell them, i will say this, i don't mean to cut you off. my grandfather used to tell me in his family as she grew up at newtown manor, but they were free people of color right. but he used to tell me that his great grandmother would always say, you know, they sold some of us down the river. right. and i had no idea what that was until this. and i think he was talking about the good, too. so thanks for sharing that. yeah and can we have you join us? hi i'm lorraine carter. my question is quick. i'd like know because you are journalists and you say because you're a journalist, you're kind of director of your information as far as being a journalist, what i wanted to know, once you started this book, once this book was exposed, what kind of dialog did you with the diet, the diaries that the these. yeah, right.

and the interaction you had because now you have this exposure and everyone, particularly in america, this is a hidden story that is not being told. so you are telling the story and wanting to know as far as have i have looked back sure know what your position okay and even though you say you're a journalist, what is your position to bring to bring it further for more for the catholic church, just like georgetown an endowment and i understand giving out scholarships whatever this is not compared to what happened to the people in maryland. so i'm wondering, because you have the what the direct. line to be having a dialog with them have you had that in what. if you have had it, what was the outcome or what is being

actually done right? it's not what they're giving the people that are enslaved because america, most of us are people. we're in say this is just one portion. yeah. so, you know, again, i am a journal so i don't get involved with, you know, directing policy or even advocate for things what, what i am very involved in and care and what my next stage of my work is trying to create. i'm working on creating a digital archive of that would it's not just universities it's not just the catholic church, other religious organizations. it's banks, it's insurance companies. i want to create a digital archive where the data sets of. those records are available so that journalists scholar, community members, families can see them and then take steps

that they want to take that communities want to take advocates want to take. but it's not it's not my role as a journalist. and also so what you were saying that there was no actual direct interaction with the diocese with, you know. yeah, i don't not certainly not in terms of. no one's asking me you no one from the catholic church is asking me or hey rachel swarns what should we do? or like it's just not the role that i play. it's not okay. yeah. so you just wrote the book. so this is exposure for that. do want to take it further, right? you know, there's a similar project it's very interesting in the united kingdom where, the people who whose vast fortunes, including members of the royal, were built on enslavement, particularly in the islands. and it's very interesting to see these folks reckon with, in fact, there was a journalist who actually left the bbc, when she realized that, you know that's so interesting.

yeah. who once she realize that you know her family had been and she wanted to dig into it further she she couldn't do both. so she has now decided decided that that is going to be her focus. her focus? yes, ma'am. we can we can go just pull it down. yeah. yeah, just. okay, i'm just just. yeah, just talk, okay? just talk. okay. so they work. oh, rachel, i want to publicly acknowledge you and thank you. we talked back in, of course, may of 2016 after the article with, the breaking big article. we has a mixing. oh, by the way, my name is rochelle prater, but wanted to thank you because i, i know the title that article was a million questions, which i had at the time. and thank god a lot of them have been answered. but the point i wanted to make

clear, i said something to you in an article that i felt like i won the lottery and. for those people who may look at that article and read that article, i want to share is the emotional because my family was some of the family that was to louisiana and how i won the lottery. i've had so much in my life. family loss there's gone and would have loved to have known this history and understood it. but now i have cousin julie. i have cousin peggy. i have cousin jeremy. i have cousin kevin porter. one of the things that has happened is that families have now found each other these families that were split by the sale have found each other. so so that splits your efforts. that is the return on that story breaking is that we are

reuniting and this is failure in african-american community. this typically doesn't happen and it continues to happen every day. and just like julie, our hearts beat at one on that goal, we go find as many as we and we to come together, as many as we can. and for the lady that was before, that's how we impact how to deal with this history not only know on a national and a world level. thank you so much and i think this will be our final as you. yes. hello. and then after your ritual and i put you on the spot i'd like you to kind of give us a concluding fire after this lady shares her her thoughts with us. just give us something to take. i just want to thank you. and i'm really looking forward to your archive of records my family name also includes the name, camp and given. but we're from virginia and given the exchange and trafficking of people in the

delmarva peninsula, i that more records will be useful to. me too because that research is hard to do. and i also wanted to push back gently on this concept that it was oppression that bred oppression, giving the people bulls that came down centuries before. and the catholic that basically said enslaved to build the new world, just want to know what you think of that and know if you could just expand on that when you say that the papal. yes, these were i knew. okay. but what you said earlier that that the priests somewhat you know, they had to enslave people because they couldn't enslaved native people, you know. no. well, first of all, let me just say that that that was not racialist phrasing. that was one of the things i was saying, is that what was interesting to me that i learned from the book was that how well, i mean, don't we see this in the world today, you know, you are angry and afraid, so you then

oppress somebody else because you're angry and afraid and a sort of i mean, given it as law, i'm just wondering, because the people bills were law once those came down, it just became the motive operation versus that being because you were oppressed in europe. i just think, you know, i just pushing back that, wondering your comments response to that. yeah. and just so that i'm clear, the you're talking about when i said what the when they came and were seeing themselves as persecuted and feeling like they wanted to join, you know, nice society be part of that it was kind of pushing them away, that kind of thing yeah so they they, i mean they did talk about that know they didn't talk about, you know, wanting to be. the truth is, of course, that it was the economy me and that they were also you're absolutely right, very explicit about what

their intentions were and why they were doing both terms of rome, in terms of, you know, enslaving people. you was part of conquest in and about, you know, about money and and with the sale even the priest who was pushing the hardest for it had a vision of building schools in the northeast. and he was very, very, very clear that in order to do that, he would need money and the jesuits would need money to do it. and this was the way that they were going to do it. i said, thank you. so, rachel, thank you for spending this evening with us. thank all of you for being here and spending this time with us. and i understand you're going to sign signs and also sign some books, but i just was wondering if i could just ask to kind of leave us with a concluding thought. i mean, there's so much here. there's so much. it's just, as you said, it's a

story of heartbreak. it's a story of love it's a story of resistance. it's a story of reunion. it's a story of a family and coming, families broken apart by violence. families brought together through love and persistence. and i just. yes, wondering about that. but i and you said that so nicely yourself. but i guess if would just kind of give us a concluding thought, like when do you would you put your you close your laptop night and when you thought about what this project has meant to you and to the families, what is it that comes to mind? what what do you what do you when you're going to go on to another project some point? but i'm just saying what, what has this meant to you? i'm i think it's important for these folks, these folks who are long gone to be seen and and be recognized and to be acknowledged. and i think that it's important for us as american is to understand that this is our

history. i think the work that i do, i'm from a historian and that, you know, i'm engaged with the past, but i'm engaged with the past because i'm really interested in how we live with this history and what we do with it. and so i think what matters to me is, again, that we are we are of it that we interrogate history, that we don't just you know, journalists are accustomed to this. right. if there's if the ceo is handing you a financial record your asking questions, ask questions, the history that you've been taught, why is it that you don't things and and i think just recognize using these folks and having them seen is really important rachel swarns descendants all of you, thank you all so much for being here. thank