>> of all people too. that will work. ladies and gentlemen, cecily zander . if you are a drug american history tv, sign up for our newsletter using the qr code on the screen to receive the weekly schedule of coming programs. sign up for the american history tv newsletter today and be sure to watch american history tv every saturday or anytime online at c- span.org/history. weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's sunday. funding for c-span2 comes from these television companies and more including cox.

>> a cox along with these companies support c-span2 as a public service. evening. welcome everyone. my name is william sturkey and i'm pleased to introduce our guests for tonight's conversation. my immediate left daphne chamberlain, a native of mb good evening. us, welcome, everyone. i am pleased to introduce our guest for tonight's conversation. my immediate left is daphne chamberlain. daphne chamberlain serves as vice president for strategic initiatives and social justice. she is also an associate professor.

before returning to to lou in 2013, tim lynn was the finding director of the civil rights center and jackson state university. she has also served as a scholar consultant for national civil rights projects. her scholarship focuses on children's activism. to her left grew up in a biracial family that was spiritually and intellectually guided by parents who are both culturally of forming. the most recent of which, chicano art, included in the top 100 art books of the decade. for a total of years at three

institutions of higher education and continues to exhibit while teaching the department of art at the university of memphis. patrick weems also mississippi native is the cofounder of the emmett till center. he has delegated his career to ensure that the tragic story is not only remembered but served as a catalyst for positive change in the state and beyond. he holds a masters degree at the university of mississippi and is a former fellow in wk kellogg fellow. thank you, everyone. thank you for being here tonight. as moderator, i will leave with some questions for our esteemed analysts. if you are watching online, you can submit questions in the live chat on youtube.

with that, let's go ahead and get started. i like to remind our panel is that you have to turn your mics on. hold them close your mouth. i like to start by getting us all on equal footing. for each of you, could you talk about what exactly are monuments and what do they need in our society today? it's been a good evening. thank you all for the opportunity to be here on panel. monuments for me, i was joking earlier that i love iteration. the number of monuments that i visited, but one of those is remembrance. reflection, reconciliation and last but not least, rededication in some instances.

for me, in terms of defining monuments, they aren't necessarily relegated to a physical structure. i even think of people being monumental because of the work that they have done in communities especially the mississippi civil rights movement. yeah, that it for me. when i think about monuments, those of the words that come to mind for me. as such as the physical structures. also people who continue to serve as monuments because of the work they've done in the legacy that they have left. >> richard. >> yes. also, thank you so much for inviting me to be on this august panel. monuments to be, a region or a country can create its own image. an expression of power. also to elicit fear.

and also, it's a teaching artifact, how to behave. how to keep people in line. and not to transgress against those in authority and power. i would completely agree with daphne that i see people as monuments as well. also with technology, video as monuments. i think about the beating of rodney king. that video being shown over and over and over. it becomes monumental. or the video documentation of january 6th, where they show it over and over and over. these expressions of power.

they have become monumental. whoever can control these monuments can control meeting. which for me, the most critical aspect of monuments making and monuments retention or destruction. >> all right. i think everything you said is exactly right. i would agree with that. for me, i think about it in terms of peace building studies. and think there is a term called moral. how do we use arts and storytelling, monuments even to process past things. in particular, with countries that have gone through civil war, genocide, the first thing they need is not new infrastructure or schools.

they need the arts. they need the storytelling. they need the culture to heal from whatever has taken place. and of those embodiments can also be towards how society is going to rebuild. i think about those type of statutes. i also think they can be used for reimagining past wounds and creating a narrative for moving forward. >> is there much of a difference between monuments and memorials? or even cemeteries? what are the functional differences between monuments and cemeteries or memorials? >> one thing that comes to mind, we are all trying to order the debt. and how do you do that? i think one of the opportunities is, can we create space so that we can honor all the dead? hopefully in a respectful way, right?

to promote a multicultural democracy. that we are not lifting one person's dead over another. we are creating that. i think there is a commonality how we are honoring the people that came before us. >> just to add to what patrick has stated, with regards honoring those who have died in, we are also talking about inspiring those and continuing those narratives of family members. of those who have made the significant sacrifices across a historical spectrum. that is what i see. i'm kind of like you, patrick. i don't really know the difference between the two. but that the way in which i look at it because my old family cemetery, all of these

people who laid the groundwork before me. those are the shoulders that i stand on and will have my children stand on as well. >> let me rephrase the question for the artists. one thing that i want to point out, often at cemeteries and memorials, you look down to other people who are deceased. but it monuments, so often your eyes go up. how would you answer the question? >> i was going to say that the difference in my old brain is the difference between public and private imaginary. or the difference between a story and a narrative. where public monuments are part of a larger narrative, right? in the cemetery, those are individual stories. those are people we both know and love rather than public figures that have participated in these larger events that have actually affected our lives.

that the way i see the difference between those two. private and public. intimate and larger than life. heroic for one group of people. and not heroic for others. >> i want to ask some of the harder things about monuments and how they are so hard. everyone in this room, everyone watching us knows that this is an emotional and very politically charged conversation. why is that? can we really tease out why is this so emotional? oftentimes people are arguing over monuments that aren't actually connected to their own families. yet it is just as emotional if it was your own grandfather or ancestor or whatever. why are the stakes so high? there are so many single issue

voters. why are they so important in our society? why is it so charged especially in recent years? >> i'll start. i guess i'll start with this. there's a lot of anxiety around truth telling. the audience this evening, i think about a panel that happened several years ago. i'm talking about historical amnesia and how it is important for us to tell the story. and of course the stories vary from person to person. but what we talk about feelings getting involved, and of course depending on what those monuments mean to you personally or politically, that is where we have this polarizing issue that rises or

bubbles to the top. it begins to fester and that it manifests itself in such a way that we begin to see the actions of people in places like january 6th. for me, we think about monuments and the role in which they play from day-to-day. people are internalizing. it's a very difficult conversation you have but it is a really conversation to be had because there is so much controversy around the conversation. >> in 2009, i did a performance, i wrote and directed a performance in memphis, tennessee. after the performance, we had a panel discussion. similar to this.

some of the supervisors with the confederate monuments were there as part of a discussion. and this woman stood up and said that she had a personal relationship to general forest. she was in the general forest helped her family or ancestors get over a difficult time in their lives. she felt a very personal connection to general forest. at the same time for people who have been marginalized, or people of color, and that symbolism negation, right? it's a negation of who we are, of what we strive to be. in that same room, those two opposing viewpoints created an incredible dynamic in regards

to the conversation of how can one exist, right? the same space as the contrary notion. i don't me to speak on her behalf. but her worldview was wrecked. at that worldview was removed, then how could she situate herself in regards to how she relates to everyday life? and the same for me. my worldview exists in contrast and opposition to what nathan forrest stood for. it's existence is a threat to be. >> i have to admit, i've never heard of him as a helping hand. that anyone. >> it depends on the neighbor. >> really good questions. these are really thought

provoking. for me, i think either that we don't argue well. we don't debate well. a way to engage in conversation . i think that is a really good first step. we've got its own interpretive center upstairs. we put up a historical side marker, the third one. a 14- year-old child, his body came out in the river. so thought that the way to debate whether that memorial should be there was to shoot it up. the first one was put up in 2008 . the second was shot 70 times that you could not read the writing on it.

the third one was shot and some students from my oma water stood in front of it with guns. i was set up like, there are people with guns using that as their way to communicate. i would hope we lived into our angles and find a way to communicate with words. it is definitely, a 14-year-old child, right? you feel so threatened by that that you have to destroy a sign? we got to do a lot better. that for sure. >> that brings me to my next question. which is very much related. from the top down, there are a lot of silences related to conversations like this. even this panel the past two days of ministry. i get the feeling there are some

people who don't want panels to happen. of course, there are also different laws that are icing concepts. it's an odd thing because the monuments are everywhere. they are all robust. the streets, the statue, the buildings. they are everywhere. there are counties named after people in bedford forrest. we are not allowed to talk about them in some cases. if you speak about them, you want to run for politics, it could end your career. so i have two questions. what you make of that observation? second, what sort of a message does that send to children? what sort of message does that send if we are thinking future about what monuments do we deserve? and how do we reconcile the work that needs to be done based on that reality? >> i'll jump in.

yes, silence, sorry, i grew up in the city, jackson metro. close enough to where i was born. i grew up in kind of a post- racial lens. we didn't talk about race. or confederate statues or anything like that because we moved past it. and we were 20 talk about it. yeah, it feels like we are entering a phase. for sure, the work that we do to honor emmett till, there was a 50 year silence where nobody publicly mentioned him for 50 years. and it wasn't until a highway memorial was put up around 2005 and immediately somebody wrote

on its. it feels like different waves of silencing. at one point, there was so much power and control that no alternative story can be told. as we are flexing our muscles and telling more inclusive stories, there seems to be new ways to silence. but i think we are finding new ways to communicate too. we built a smart phone app after our signs got shot up. we responded with a tracking unit. i think there is authoritarianism and silencing is very different. i think we have to continue to find ways to spread our messages. >> think each of the university of memphis, tennessee. they have recently passed the lost two weeks ago. it created a chilling effect on our campus. i was carefully listening to what patrick had to stay in

regards to we need to debate better or talk better. if these laws continue, we won't have the same facts. that knowledge would be subjugated. how can we debate better if we are not what you have the same facts? since the reagan area, they have demonized education and educators. i hate to say this but, they have now created a fine art. they have devised these things to codify silence, right? not just at the k-12 level but at the university and college level.

if you do not abide by the silence, you will be silenced economically. and so, there is a lot of carrot and stick component to the laws. and i you also have to report what you are doing to balance the diversity, the intellectual diversity on the campus as well. it is past scary. in regards to the legislation that has occurred and is coming down the pipe. >> i have the great privilege of not having only graduating from the historical college, i

had the opportunity to also teach there. we are not restricted by some of what you are faced with, richard. patrick has heard me say this before. the hunter will be the one who is glorified. it is really important for us to make sure it spaces however we can, we can better debate the conversation around the history and how it should be taught. it's not about teaching the students about what you think. it's to teach them how to think and expanding their minds and intellectual capacity in such a way they go out and understand that there are systems in place that are oppressing marginalized groups of people. it's important that we make sure these students understand the power of the pen on paper. and being inclusive and not silencing the histories of those of us sitting in this audience and even spaces that reflect this history here in

the two mississippi museums. that has been the one thing that inspired me most. as a student at tougaloo college, i was bushed to ask questions of those sources that i was reading which is the reason i said to the position that i am in now and doing the research that i do. that goes to the final part of your question, how does this impact young people? as long as you have people who are sitting on the stage like us and doing the work that we are doing, we can really fight against all of these structures in place that keep this information from young people. expose these young people to the history and make sure that it is not lost. that how you get at that, william. everybody doesn't get the experience i had as a tougaloo student. but that is urresponsibility. >> let's shift gears a little bit. let's start dreaming.

our prompt, what monuments do we deserve? what would our world look like? what would mississippi look like if we had monuments that we don't have to protect with removal laws? we can't talk about the conflicts of those monuments came from. if we had monuments that every student wanted to go to. what would that look like is sort of the way to shift our conversation next. i'm going to ask richard to start. you once said that with think that what vince could do or that they should do is empower children with a way to defend themselves. if you could say a little bit more about children being able to defend themselves through public monuments? >> thank you. i share that story with you when i was growing up in the san diego, tijuana area. my mom only had a second grade

education. my father finish high school after a little bit of college. my family from mexico would come and visit and they would ask me and encouraged me, are you going to college? i would say, yes. they would always say, good, to defend yourself. education in our arena, our familial arena was that how you get a good job. how to advance yourself, et cetera. it's how to protect your self and your loved ones from those that are trying to exploit you. that stuck with me. that this was one of the purposes of education. of a formal education is not only to find joy in the

knowledge and find purpose and knowledge creation. but also to use it as a talisman to protect yourself and your loved ones i guess those that are interested in doing you harm. hopefully i'm not coming off as the negative one on stage because i am filled with hope. but i wanted to give the background to that. daphne said something very important at the very beginning. i was thinking about your question, william. what would be my greatest wish? to fully re-franchise the human monuments that walk amongst us. and to fully resource the human monuments that walk amongst us

so they can find their full potential in this country. that for me would be the investment that would be critical. and beyond that, i don't have the experience to say, what would it look like without your community being subjugated? i don't know what that looks like. and maybe future generations with that enfranchisement, with those resources can dream what a society can look like that is not subjugated and does not participate and perpetuate systems of domination. >> and daphne and patrick, what kind of arguments do we deserve? >> i share this story quite often and thinking about as a

fifth or sixth grader, i remember returning to mississippi and reading the jet magazine. it seems one of the most gruesome images any child that age?. and that was an image of emmett till. in that moment, i saw myself in that story despite having years separated his murder and the life i was living at that time. he was black like me. he was close in age with me. and of course his murder happened here in the state of mississippi. i think one of the things that we really need to think about as we think about future generations is how can we allow area people to see themselves in the narrative, in a positive way? at that particular point in my life, that was a negative image of mississippi. that all i can think about. i was begging my parents, can we please move back to where we came from? but of course, i understood that that was a part of the story of the state's rich

history. but of course there were young people who were motivated and also that gave momentum or life to a civil rights movement that was led by young people here in the state of mississippi. i think that is really important. the powering agency of those young people demonstrated during the 1950s and 1960s. when you think about monuments, it lies in the folks that lend these movements around their voices to be amplified. in the actions and sacrifices made and be respected and well received by younger generations. >> my highest hope, it feels like we are moving from crisis to crisis. it feels like we are trying to prevent something bad from happening. i hope we can get to a space.

again, there are so many crisis is. my highest hope is that we can have a democratic process where we are able to show up. right, we are engaged. we are able to trust that the actual leaders would listen after decision-makings had been made on a community level. and then we would find out that we have a lot in common. we all want a good job. we all want a safe neighborhood. we all want a car in our driveway. and how do you represent those values into monuments? how do you create that safety and courage? yeah. >> i would come back to you patrick to ask about something.

there is a video where you were interviewed on this incredible story. the thing that i took away from that video was this line that you sent. it was, we think it is really important if we are going to listen to stories that we list to everybody's story. it made me think, so many of our debates of confederate monuments focus on the sins of the confederacy and the sins of slavery, right? but many of the arguments in favor of keeping confederate monuments sort of treat those monuments as memorials themselves. the poor everyday soldier who was dragged off to war. and of course, many of those people did not have prosperous lives. they didn't own packs of enslaved people and things like that. i just wonder, in light of the tone of our conversations, had we then also make space for that claim as well? >> i don't think it is mutually exclusive.

that person, can explain the video? >> sure. yes, please. >> these real-life events where we finally put up a historical marker, two of the murderers that lynched and murdered and tortured emmett till were tried and freed. finally, there were 52 years later, there was a historical worker put up. this community member came out. very frustrated, very angry that somebody had put this up. he came into the courtroom and wanted to know this. one of the commissioners of the emmett till memorial commission came out and said, we did. the community did.

it was already thrown off balance. the federal government had put this in his community. and that he started to rant, why are we talking about this? we shouldn't be talking about this. mind you, 30 yards across, there is a confederate statue. but why are we talking about this? this is long and gone. and she just gave him space to rent. which probably if he was a black man, he would not have that space, possibly, right? she dignified him with space. listen to his stories. and finally after he felt listen to, he was in a receptive mood. she said, how old is your son? i think she already knew. he said, i'm not sure, i think he is going to turn 14. she said, that how old and it was. we are not trying to change

anybody's way of life. we are trying to tell the story so it never happened to anyone else's 14-year-old. he came to her house later and offered to put a garbage over the marker the day that our community was apologizing to the tell family. he had a damascus change overnight within three hours. that not always possible but i think that is a high hope. i believe in humanity. i still believe that we have better angels. i think sometimes if that was a white person talking to a white person, that is sometimes what we need. yeah. does that answer your question? it was a good story regardless. >> i have time for just one

last question for each of you and then we are going to open it up for the audience here. i just want to ask, is there any group of people in particular already top of monuments beyond a statue that you think we could incorporate as we build were monuments in the future? >> i grew up in columbus, mississippi. i shared with william earlier this week, i have some of my earliest history lessons driving around the community. it's a big pilgrimage town. every april you would have the pilgrimage. i used to always be in awe of the antebellum homes. of course it was odd for people to hear me say i wanted to do civil war reconstruction history and went and ate different direction with civil rights history. i also shared in that

conversation that i think of those homes as monuments. but not to the affluence of those who live there but really to left of the stories in the unheard voices of those who built those homes. and that those enslaved people. that my answer. what i think about monuments just in my childhood and even thinking outside of the box on the those monuments represent or reflect their story, it's those untold stories or voices that have been silenced that duty to be amplified. we do need to pay attention. there are always two sides to the story. >> i'd like to lift up what patrick had to say a moment ago. part of it is, how do we re- center the narrative? and localize it? and to provide opportunities where we can listen to each other and remind each other that we are neighbors. and not enemies.

and that we have a commonality. that commonality is our humanity. and how do we left that up? how do we find opportunities? how do we seize upon opportunities to continue to do that? and then build process, collaborative process where we can amplify each other's voices block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood, community by community. if we listen to the narrative broadcast by the center of power, we are never going to be able to talk to each other. >> richard, i would you take what you said one step further. perhaps we need monuments that are not just soldiers but to teachers, to people who raise families.

patrick. >> i was going to say the really big course with a guy on top of it. yeah, i really like the localized piece of this. once you get to the local, that is where the root conversation happens. i do think there is the possibility that we are starting the night and that we can help guide each other. and that if sumter, mississippi can take responsibility and change its own narrative, for memphis or wherever, we can shriek off of each other. but i definitely think that local peace is where we can hear each other. >> okay, let's take some questions. >> if anyone in the audience has any questions, please feel free to stand over here to the

right. our first question comes from a youtube live chat. this is a general question for the panelists. how often, we often turn to the arts to help us confront histories. what are some other modes of political imagination that you can think of? >> can you say it one more time? >> yes. we often turn to the arts to help us confront histories. what are some other modes of political imagination that you can think of? >> i think patrick mentioned the table earlier. just having meaningful, transparent honest conversations . that is a perfect platform. not always the easiest platform to be able to open up a

conversation. but i think that is how you begin to remember, reflect and reconcile. >> to piggyback, we are constantly looking at our phones. and isolating ourselves. instead of sitting on our porches, living with our neighbors, we look and put something in our vcr or a dvd player. but ashley to return to porch people and having conversations with your neighbors, right? and maybe even having monthly block parties where people can come up, half in, tell stories, laughs, celebrate each other. that doesn't take much effort.

>> they answered it. i really do think art is pivotal. community is key. trust is key. i think we underemphasized the power of historic storytelling and literature. we have got to remember that those are sacred. they are what cultures have relied on for generations. our stories are our power. >> our next questions comes from an in person audience member. >> for small, i'm very honored to be in this setting. you mentioned earlier that you

grew up in a post-racial society. she did talk about it growing up. i wish you could elaborate on that a little bit. i teach art and i'm teaching about mississippi history and culture through the arts. i would be fired if i were in florida right now. i find that the kids don't talk about this. they have not talked about this and that is a problem. i'm just wondering if you could elaborate on that a little bit. >> yeah, i grew up in mississippi. i grew up going to a school not far from here. one of my stories is having a racial incident happened on campus. somebody used the n word to a friend of mine. i was in the middle of the skirmish and the word was used. other epitaphs were used against jewish students. and then we just didn't talk about it. we got punished but we never

really went to the root of why did a fight began and people went to their worst pledge, verbal pledge. and they went to those words. we didn't deconstruct that. we didn't use it as a learning moment or learning tool. we just had to wash tables. you know, they were really clean afterwards but i have a 2 1/2-year-old. i hope he gets a lot of that from home. i hope you get some from his church that we are not in a post-racial society. thank god we are not. if you have ideas, share them with me. i don't have the answers. but what happened to me was not the answer. >> could you just say what it

was that turns you on or made you aware that you needed to start talking about it? >> what made me aware was running away from the sappy. i thought it was broken and would never change. that why think memorials are reported that we realize they can change. and we realize societies and communities can change. i have learned that from learning those stories about how young people did make changes in mississippi. and giving me hope to actually stay here and make part of that change. >> thank you. >> our next question. >> i am a local member from los angeles visiting jackson for the first time. thank you to the moderator in the panel for the scintillating conversation. my question to each of the panelists is, if you could look

10 years into the future, could you propose a new monument in mississippi that does not currently exist? and what message would you want that monument to tell a visitor? >> i'm going to give you guys a second. to me, there is an easy answer for that. in 1860, the number of enslaved people by over 80,000. everywhere you look, there are confederate monuments. it would be something that was big and important. it said that these people appear that they matter. >> love it. >> history is complex and complicated all at the same time. 10 years forward, i would say perhaps a monument that is a letter of sorts. that captures the good, the bad and the ugly.

but of course, it's inclusive and includes all of those voices that make up this rich history in the state where many of us who were born and raised and loved. >> besides william's brilliant idea, a statewide academy where high school students can come and learn strategies of resistance. whether it is art making, journalism, investigative reporting, research, history, the language arts et cetera. all based around resistance. >> yeah, williams was amazing. i think it takes the best of mississippi to talk about the worst in mississippi. right? i stick to that. i also think there is space for chinese american experience.

i think there are so many mississippi's, there needs to be a monument. we need more stories, not less stories. let's let our imagination with stories. the amazing writers from mississippi. the amazing educators from mississippi. and a couple of footballers would be great. >> our next question. it's me back when i think about the grand monumental tradition, the big statue, the massive stone work and all of this. you think about it in this historical contest. you look at societies like greece or rome, those were powerful people building statues to say a very specific kind of message. almost always wrapped up in oppression.

when we think about new monuments or monuments we deserve, should we be thinking outside of that tradition? post grand monument tradition. your mentioning the houses, right? the failed monuments that are multivalent by definition and not built to transmit a specific message. >> that for everyone. >> i'll go first. yes, obviously. i was joking when i said a bigger horse. i don't want to go to a space where you are like, what is it? i hope that they go to some type of meeting. i think that meeting is love, community. how do you show that? maybe it is gathering spaces.

they felt that was not their space. it becomes a gathering space. they see themselves in that space. place making could be a part of this. i hope that again, we just want the imagination with possibilities. >> i really like what patrick had to say. in regards to space making, where there is a ritual, right? the ritual is coming together in different communities. to reconnect, to reaffirm how they are bound to each other. they can be very instructive. step-by-step. like a game.

you do this. hold each other's hands or, go embrace a stranger. et cetera. the idea of not just objects but how do those objects activate the space where it elicits an action by all of us. an action that re-creates community. >> ditto. >> we are short on time but our last question comes from our youtube live chat. what are the most compelling monuments you are seeing young people create? how will they shape, purpose and/or impact a monument change as our younger generations grow

up? >> i'll give a shout out to the emmett till academy. she him tw, but she started the emmett till academy to young people. emmett was murdered in town. i mean sunflower county almost, said tallahatchie in sunflower county and. that story has gone really unrecognized. and those group of young people have created a civil rights tour of the mississippi delta. they're thinking through what a marker might look like in their community in drew, mississippi. so it's unfinished. but i just want to give them a shout out as a as a group of young people that are thinking through this type of work. the tougaloo nine, joyce ladner

hollis, a color of lady i'll make arthur cotton. and i'm thinking about students who were at tougaloo during the height of the civil rights movement when i'm also thinking students who are currently enrolled at jp's tougaloo early college high school who just recently a documentary of short document untouchables role in the rights movement except it's national day and they were led by mississippi's educator of the year, alexandria drake. so when i think about these monuments that young people are committed to putting out there in the public space, for people to not just be educated but also embrace and be empowered by and, that's been a really important when i just learned this the other day and i was so excited that young people are gaining this resurgence and wanting to learn more about history and they're taking into their own hands and crafting it into a way

that is delivering a powerful message to the mass is and that they can also a voice in there. so that's that's what gives me hope. and i'm extremely optimistic the work that gloria dickerson is doing, the work that these young people, the jp early college, tougaloo college high school are doing. and i just look forward to seeing more across the state and also across the nation. because i have the i have the great privilege of watching my students rediscover through the art making process and to use the transform the power of art to make the to make the invisible, visible and and i more and more of our of our students use the transformative of art to search for their own identity. and in such we continue to amplify what it is to be a human being in tennessee and everywhere else.

and so that for is a grand monument. thank you all much. it's time for us to close. so i just want to thank you all for this incredible conversation. it's truly been an honor to moderate this panel. thank you to everyone in the audience who joined us here in person today and to everybody who joined us online as well. you will be able to find a summary of our discussion at zocalo public squares talk by tomorrow plus interviews with all of our panelists. you can also subscribe to zocalo newsletter, the podcast and social media accounts. this conversation is part of zocalo series. how should societies remember their since supported by the melo, the mellon foundation? i hope that you'll all join us when we have the next installation of this conversation, which is titled why is it remembering enough to repair daphne, rach, richard and patrick? thank you all so much, everyone join me in once again taking our panelists.