we are so excited to.

be here to celebrate. rachel il swarns for the 272 the families who were enslaved and sold to build the american catholichurch. in 1838, a group of america's most prominent cathoc priests

sold 272 enslaved people to save their largest mission project, which is now georgetown university. in this groundbreaking account, professor swarns follows one family through nearly tw centuries of indentured servitude and enslavement to uncover the harrowing origin story of the catholic urch in the united states. rachel swarns is a joualist, author and associate professor of journalism at new york university who writes out race and race relations as a contributing writer for thnew york times. her articles about georgetown university's roots in slavery touched off a national conversation and about america's universityays and their ties to this painful piod in history. her work has been recognized, raised and supported by e national endowment, the humanities, the four org fd foundation, the leon levy ceer for biography, the biographers international organized nation, among others. as a correspondent for theimes

swarns reported from rusa, cuba, guatemala andouthern africa and covered immigration and presidential politics and michelle obama in her ro in. the obama white house. she is the author of american tapestry the story of the black, whe and multiroom racial anstors of michelle obama and the coauthor of unseen, unpublished black history. the new york times photo archives. swarns will be joined in conversation session today with michel martin, the host of morning edition. previously, she was the weekend host of all things considered and hostf the consider this saturday podcast, where she drew on her deep reporting and interviewing experience to dig into the week's news. she has spent more than 25 years as a journalist and has been honored by numerous organizations. and soow please join me in welcoming to politics and prose. rachel ellsworth bur and michel martin, who.

friendly amendment, a host of morning edition sorry. thank you. friendly amendment. a ho of morning edition there are four of us. do not get me in trouble whei go back to work on monday. weome and welcome home, neighbor. it's nice to have you back in back in d.c.. quite a journey. you know,hen. well, how many of you read her original new york times piece in 2016? i kn 's been a while. do you remember? ok. so do you ever wonder when somebody write. so it's particularly a deeply repoed article and then a book comes out if there's more to say, do you ev like? is there really more to say? i can assert th there is. and i was wondering whyou understood it or when you understood that there waso muchore to say. what was it after the first piece which was so impactful and so deeply reported and shocking to some that made you

understand that there was much more to say? well, it's so cool to be sitting alongside you ando see you for so many years. so i think it might be useful talk a little bit about how i even came to this story and it arted in 2015. students were protesting at georgetown. they wer concerned abo two buildings that carry the names of twof the priests who happened to be ely presidents who had orchestrated this sale. and the administration changed the names that the administration hadeen considering, changing the names ev before that. but the the protest caught the eye of a georgetown alum, a ceo of a tech company in cambridge, who said, okay, protest about the buildings, about this

history, chae the names. but e 272, like what hapned to them. and so he rehed out to a faculty member at georgetown, as i mentionedgeorgetown had already been looking io this and trying tthink about its own history and slavery and how to wrestle with it. d he said, okay, well, what happened to their descendants? and he was told they al died. and he said they all died like nearly 300 people. theyll died. no descendants. and that seemed implausible to him. therwere certainly other people in the working group at orgetown who thought there were descendants. t this guy said there weren't. and so this guy, richard cellini, said to himself, that makes up no sense. and richard was someone he's a white guy, ceof a tech company, a republican guy o had not been involved in racial

justic issues in any way before, but he loved georgetown. and he said, you know, like, i think we kind of oh you, u know, something to these people. we the existence is connected to these people. and so he hired a team of genealogists who started digging and trying to find descendants. and then he reached out to a colleague of mine at the times who was on the business side. business reporter rather and said, hey you know, i think i got an exclusive for the times about a slave sale in the 1830 that benefited georgetown. and she was kind of like, okay, interesting. is that even a story? and so it is my great, great fortune that she didn't just delete the email. i mean, you have to remember, this was before the 1619 project. you know, this kind of reporting wasn't tanahashi coates had done his case for reparations, but it wasn't the kind of reporting

that we typically do. but she remembered that there was someone on the staff who had might ha a sense of this and she remembered the book i had done about michelle obama's ancestors tracing her enslaved back to the 1800s. so she forwarded the email to me and i knew immediately i knew it was a story. my reporting. michelle obama's ancestors had allowed me to explore how slavery shaped american families and. i thought that this would be the next step to look at how slavery shaped one of our elite institutions. so but what i didn't know was, you know, who whoere the 272. and that's tt's what i needed to fd out what i wanted to find out. can i just tell you, i, i, i, i waso moved by every aect of that story, which is i didn't understand the back story until i readhe book that think about this. let's, can we just marinate in that for a minute.

this white guy who had not thought very much about slavery or enslavent didn't have any connection to it and understands that ainstitution that he cares deeply is deeplenmeshed in it, and he digs into his pocket, does some work, and then reaches out to you and your colleague reaches out to you and. there we have it. and i just think that, you know, it's first all, that's reporting one onne, folks. for those of you who really do just what i always tell my interns, answer the il, please, please, please, please don't read yr email. please do read your email and i would say ask ke a very fundamental question, which was just who were and what we their names, you know, this is the quote fr a book you said this is not a disembodied group people who are nameless and faceless. thesare real people with real names and real descendants. and that's what tt w his

quote that's what he that's what he said. what he felt. in fact in fact, let us just ask if there are any amo us today who are directly cnected to this story, will you show yourself so can the descendants? yeah. can you stand can we welcome you and honor you. thank you for being here. i thank you r being here. what did you she just said, say what you just said to. we're still here. my family in southern illinois right? yeah. and we are glad you're still here. thank you for being here. thank you for allowing your story to rise. your article focused on georgetown. in the book, it focuses on the bigger story of the role of slavery in the building of the american catholic church. as briefly as you can. what was it? why was so important, so, you know, i started again by looking at this sale, and i think it

would be helpful ttell. just a quick story that will make you understand how i got from theale to the larger picture. and to do that, i just want to tell a story which i tell a lot. but think as a journalist, i'm not a historian. i often think aut when you're writing aut slavery, being aware that there are a lot of folks who are going to say, oh, no, no, thank, you know, turn the page, turn your head and so how do you bring that sto to people? how do you get people to hear? and the way i feel is the best way to get people to hear is to tell a story that's compelling, tontroduce families that peop might want to read about. so when i talk about the 272nd how i got to georgetowand then the catholic church, i like to bring people back to november of 1838 to give you a sense of what it was like for these people. and, you know, in 1838, these

folks were brought from southern maryland to alexandria, virginia. and if you had been there, would ha seen them scores of people ing loaded on to a ship forcibly loaded elderly people, rents, children, babies, witnesses describe people falling to their knees, weeping, being for mercy. and these were people who wer being torn from all the people they loved and the world that th knew, being being shipped, you know, down south. they were owned by the nation's most powerful jesuit priests as you heard before, who happened to bemong the slave holders in maryland. and they were selling these folks when times got hard, as people did, because they were their most prized assets and they wanted to save this school. and as i started digging and realizing, okay, wow, hey, i happened to be black and

catholic, had no idea that priests were involved in the slave trade, no idea that slavery helped to save, you know, this ititution. i startelooking at the priests d looking at this hisry and what i learned was it wasn't just georgetown, the jesuits built the early catholic church, first in the british colony. and then in early america. and the priests who relied on slave labor a slave sales built, you know, the first archdiocese, the first cathedral, all early convent priestsho operated pltations and soldeople built theirst catholic seminary. so the underpinnings of the church were built by priests who were deeply, deeply involved in slavery. you write in the book, without the enslaved the catholic church in the united states as we know it today would not exist.

that's right. one of the things that also struck me about the book is that you describe how oppressn led oppression the entire how interweave the various forms of oppression have been and i found that very, very interesting. and of course, upsetting. but could you talk a lile bit about the catholic church and its attitude toward indigenous people and how thettitude toward indigenous people and a kind of a a transformation of its attitude toward indigenous people kind of led to its accept sensof the enslavement of people of african descent, which i found really fascinating. one of the things that's really fascinatinabout the catholic and itwe should be very clear that it's not just the catholic church, right? it's protestant churches to you know, it's svery's

foundational for a lot of things. but the catholicriests, you know, there were white people who viewedlack people as animals. a purely cathol said, okay, no, we think they have souls and we want to nurture their souls, but we're okay abt enslaving them and selling their bodies. and people say how is that possible? and what did rome have to say? and that's what micheis getting at. and it's slavery is an ancit practice, as we know. it's in the bible. thjesuits often pointed to it. saint paul talking about the response abilities of slaves and masters. when europeans went into africa and then into the americas, they enslaved indigenous people initially and there were protests by pests in rome, said, okay, we w't do that. butbout but there was still this insatiable need folabor. and so africans filled that gap and the church rome rained

silent about african too. and if you also want look at you know, kind of oppression leading to oppression, you know, the priests who came maryland camerom england where they were persecuted,atholics were persecuted. and maryland was a refuge for for catholics. but in trying to embed themselves and to be recognized as establishments of society, slavery was part of establishment society. that's that's what it was. and and they became part of that. it's important to know, though, that there we always voices whraised questions. the priests. there were priests. all along the way who had concerns about it. d also one of the other things that iound fascinating about the book is how atimes when catholics were peecutednot well, persecuted, donrapture, if that's the right word, but marginalized within the politi of maryland they turned to

because protestants wouldn't work for them once again they turned to africans iorder to save their properties and their their kind of livelihoods and yoshare that you are also you identify as catholic om birth assume yeah cradle catholic. so do you do you mind if i ask how this recording how did it influence your kind of faith walk do did it challen your faith walk in any way so you know i think it's interesting i was dointhis work i'm catholic i'm a practicing and you know i'm going through ese records and some of these records are i've been doing this kind research a long time. bu you know, bracing records, getting used to seeing if you

were if you were writing about enslaved people, you were writing about people who are viewed as property. so that's what you're looking for. you're looking for tax here. you're looking for property. you see these estate records that list, you know,he coffee tables, the tablecloths the pigs, the dishes and the list of the human beings. so that's sobering. and then i'm going to mass right here. so but, you know, i think what has been interesting to me is the families themselves and the experience of the families themselves. i tell the story of one family in particular, the mahoney family and and the matriarch of that family, a woman by the name of angie arrives in the 1600s. not just a few decades after the first priests arrive. and she's a free person. she's an indentured servant whose freedom stolen.

she's forced into slavery by catholic gentr but she holds on to the one thing that she has, which is her story. and she tells who will listen that she should have been free and that her her liberty was stolen. and she tells her children that her grandchildren that that story has passed on. people in her family, her descendants resist. some of them are, one or two of them killed and overseer and executed. they go to court. they sue the jesuits, some of them, when their freedom that way, some of them don't harry mahoney saves the church his wealth in the war of 1812 and garners a pledge from the jesuits that his he neither he nor his family will ever be sold. and that's a pledge that's broken in 1838. so. at times the priests were quiet and black people to go to mass

to participate in the sacraments. the were penalties for not doing that. there is an instance where of two families, a priest decided that two families who had engaged in fidelity be punished. he sold their children. and so after the civil war, what did families d you can ask, you know, would you stay catholic after your year? the priest said split up your family and so folks interestingly you know people a mber of people stayed a number of people left thousands left because. the church remained segregated afterwards. but members of this mahony family, many of them stayed not only they stay, but they became lay leaders. some of them becamreligious leaders, and they worked to make the church true to its ideals of being a universal church. they set up black parish is to

joined, became nuns and ran schools for black children. some of their descendants are catholic to this day. and those record it's actually those sacramentarecords have been really important to genealogy and to myself in terms of tracking these families and you know and these descendants who are among us many of them still catholic have been in the forefront of presng the church. and george to recognize this history. i look those folks and in a crazy way, you know, i find inspiration there. i see folks who said to themselves, church does not belong to the sinful men who are in it. this church, they don't control god. they don't control, you know, the son, the holy spirit, none of that. and and it was their church. and they decided to make it

at. and to me, that inspires me. so i'm still going. one, i want remind you that this is a conversation that we cannot participate in. there's only sadly there's one mic there. d i hate to make this a tness, but my recommendation would be that we're going to to qutions from you in just a minute. o. so if you have one that you want to share if you would perhaps begin making your way to the microphone and what you've mentned that you're not an historian, but, you know, historians and journalistsre basically in conversation each her. and i'd like to ask, you we call it the fst draft of history. and you all that i don't i don't know what the appropriate digital term would be. the personal history. i'm not sure what the right is that even first. you know, not even using at word of. but what was the most i don't know as a this wasn't really how you got started in journalism, right? you get started in journalism kind of chronicle what's around you right now, not what

happened. 304 hundred years ago. so ias just interested in whether was there any part of yourself that you had to to sort of transform from in order to do this work or you had to change your practice in some way or there was a lot of learning involved. i realized that there was so much about american history, even as a reasonably educated person that i just didn't know. i've always been a records person. i covered courts early in my career, local courts, federal courts. so i've always been a records person as a journalist. so records have been like kind of important to and interesting to me. so learning. i had to learn a whole swath of of records. but i, i think, i've also been someone who always loved a good mystery and the hunt for me is really, really interesting and it was really when i got started on article that led me to the book about michelle obama.

i was searching for her gat great grandfather. who was born into slavery and was biracial. and i had gone to a cemetery and i was amazed. i could go to e archives and find where he was buried. the plot, you know, the number who was next? him. i thought, you know, i, i had everything i had it all together and then i got to this cemetery and it was in birmingham. and this old, neglected african american cemetery with the grass up to my knees and the tombstones. and many of you may know that even the dead were segregated. right in the day in the south. so i spent an tire day there, completely unsuccessful. i never found his tombstone, but there was something about that. just something about that that that grabbed me. and i thought, you know, actually there is like nothing i'd rather be doing than this. and i came home to my husband. i said, good lord, i don't know

what happened. something happened to me out there, like, maybe i need to get another degree. he's like, maybe not that. not that. and then i wrote this imagery of two kids is he's like, what are you doing? mentioned. but you know, when a publisher approached me after that story and he said, okay, that's the thing. and so that's that's what it was just kind this i don't know, this weird thing that just kind of got me that i joke it's my midlife crisis the 19th century and i don't know yeah. let's go to your conversation, your questions, thoughts now. and please join us. and we know who we are. so we would love to know who you are. that's okay. yes, i'm my name is natn weisler, and i'm a recent graduate of montgomery college and i now live overseas and i'm hoping to teach american history

in schools overseas. and that's something that really feel very passionately about. i, i began reading the book and one thing that struck me in particular was reading about the story of solomon northup and in particular and in particular about the and in particular about the very emotional details ofis homecoming and. what i was wondering is. what i was wondering is what i was wondering is in the course of your research, what you think too, what did you think was what did you believe to be among the mo striking parallels and contras, the story of solomon northup and that of anna and evanna and louise of anna and louisa. okay. it's a good question. first, for those who solomon northup being, if you those of you saw 12 yea a slave who was a free black in the north, who

was kidnaped, sold back into slavery and of course, the southern had immunize themselves from from from having to pay compensation for people who were wrongly re enslaved. right. so a his his story is very instructive because as i mentioned, one of the challenges when you're writing about enslaved people is is that is the material, frankly like rely, really hard to the material and. you know enslaved people were by law and by practice barred from arning to read and write. so the kinds of ings you would rely on letters, journals and that kind of thing are not ere. so you're for those records that ientioned, and you're also looking for contemponeous voices of people at the time o can illuminate something for you. solomon northup was someone who was shipped to louisiana and wrote very vividly about aot

of things about what new orleans was like, about what the plantati life was like. and that was very insuctive. he also wrote about being reunited with his family, and unfortunately, that was not something thatappened to the two sisters who were split by the sale. but his his experience was was very and you get to hear his voice, which is helpful. thank you. yeah. hi, i'm my name as genuine visiting from new york grea talk wondering i've also been reading about the other scandal which broke aboucatholic children. well, there is an overlap that is the thing i've been reading about the boarding schools and it's. a cavalry soldiers that said so was there overlap in terms of the same church organization more than both of these or how was that and think you're talking about th indigenous.

yeah. boarding school. yeah. yeah, i, i'm glad you mention that because i would not want my sort of introduce of that subject about oppression leadi t views for people to think that, you know, indigenous people were so beautifully because we are now seeing right. so the way in which, you know, the, the, the, the operative frade phrase was sort kill the indian to save the man. but jesus horrendous abuses that people were subjected physically emotionally and. all right spiritually and all of that is is coming to light now, the truth is, i don't have an answer for you. i wish i did. i don't. but, you know, i can certainly seand ask the same kinds of questions because there are certainly feels like there are parallels. there. well, i could see the parallel being that that people who had the power felt that they had the authority to develop different ades of humanity, you know, you're this level of human and you're this level human. and if you're this level of

human, this is what you get. i think that seems to be sort of all of a piece and and, you know, and tearing families apart. right? yeah. and destroying their culture the same way and substituting your own because you've determined that it's superior. other you others who would like to join us conversation. i oh i just wanted to mention to the guy from politics and prose that also was on nightline for decades. right, right. i was 12. anyway, i guess i don'even know where to begin here, but, you know, selling slaves, i an, they sold slaves stay in business and then the priest molested thousands and thoands of chiren. i have a really hard time with

this. we're going with this, marjie, but where are you going? this? well, i'm just saying then you i me, it is sort of shocking that actually stay catholic when they heaall of this. i mean, even the cardinal who was the cardinal of the district of columbia, now, he was deocked and now he's being he's beene indicted and fo what he did and, it's like, do theseeople have no shame? i mean, i it's okay to sell slaves. it's okay to molest kids. i don't know. what is it religion about? if this is what you do when you're a religious person? i don't know. i just you. i was wondering if any of this came into and if any of the slaves, you know, i mean, many slaves were imegnated and and things like that. so does any of this come into your storyline of, you know, some of these people are probablyescendants of some of the slaves owners. maybe it was even the priests

any of this ever come out. so my my book doesn't deal at all with the scandals in the church. you know, and there is a lot work in journalism, very important work in journalism that has been done to expose that. and would say that what i do is try to show kind of what how slavery fueled the growth of the church, how what what the priests did, how they treated people. again, i'm mindful of the fact that it wasn't just the catholic church. episcopal church, all the protestant church, baptists mean it was this was this was sadly, it was what was happening at the time. but, you know, it is an ugly, ugly history ther's no way around it. and the reason why it shocked me

was, because enslaved people have been left largely out of the story that the catholic church traditionally tells about itself. and that's that's true. it's also true, though, and important to note that as i mentioned before, that there were priests who raised questions and concerns about this. and it's important because one thing that you often hear when you're talking about slavery is we're studying slavery is people who say don't bring your immorality to the table here. it's it was legal. it was the time. so, you know, you can't bring your 21st century judgmts to it. but the truth is that within the catholic at the time there were priests who were raising questions. there were priests who were protesting. there were pests who you know. one of the priests i write about in the book is a guy by the name of joseph carberry, who ran a plantation and where this

mahoney was enslaved and when he learned that the sale was coming, he objected. and when he was overruled and when the trade came, he encouraged members of the family to run. now what's complicate it about that? you know, i'm think, oh, gosh. joseph carberry awesome. but some of the mahoney's ran i mentioned the two sisters louisa and anna louisa runs with her mother. she hides the woods, the ships leave, take her sister and another sister away. other family members away, and thenouisa and her mother return the plantation where they are welcomed back by joseph carberry into slavery, where they remain louisa remains. she's one of the last people in the records by enslaved by the jesuits. so it was a complicated situation but you know,

unfortunately or it just wasn't within the purview the reporting that i did i didn't deal with the sexual scandals. apologize. yes. and who else would like to join our conversation? . hello. hi. my name is kyla mathews and i'm the fourth great granddaughter of louisa mahoney. i'm also a rising to l at georgetown lawight now and. and from what i've expienced, i would say that the uversity is more responsive or they tend to be more reactive than proactive ve and their accountability and are especially motivated by press and media. so i'm wondering from the point of view of a journalist, what you think thmost effective way to kind of keep aent li preserve this nartive and keep

attention on this story would be just with a, yoknow, our collective attention spans the way it is. yeah so it's a good question d. just in case some of you don't know. so in 2016, one of the tngs that georgetown did was offer or what is, in effect, legacy status or preface preference in admissions to descendants who were interested in going to georgetown and changed the names of the building is, as you know, created an institute whichs now coming online and then. created a fund. students actually protested and said,ey, you know, georgetown, you need to do more for these descendants. and they had a referendum and said, you know, we will tax ourselves, in effect, we will institute a fee to raise money for for descendants because they lt that the university should do more. the university sai no, no, no we're not goingo do that, but

we're going to raise $400,000 a year for that benefit. descendants that was at program just got unrway this year and $200,000 as it's en distributed, the jesuits for their part, and the georgetown and the jesuits, both apologized. the jesuit partned with a group of descendants and promis to raise $100 million toenefit racial reconciliation progra and programs for descendants, that would be the large just effort ma by the roman catholic church in america. adess this history. it hasad a slow start. they have not as mu money as they had hoped and. as you know, ayou might imagine, descendan are, you know, have med feelings about all of these things and are asking, you know, could more be done? you know, how shld this look?

they have their own ideas about how this should look so question you ask is kin of how to kind of keep them focused on on what needs toappen. you i'm a journalist so you know i'm not in the advocacy. you know, i'm not laying. yeah, that's not what i do. but i certainly can say from from experience and just in the story, you know, pressure from students andaising attention, issues involving has cerinly drawn attention. and you know, in covering stitution and we've done a lot of that, you know at sometimes can be i wod say that know people georgetown has been criticized on all sides descendants by people o think they need to do more by alums who are like what are you doin and where y? where are you going with this?

what is certainly true is that georgetown and the jesui have been, you know, right in the thick of what is now a growing movement among institutions and municipalities around the country to acknowledge and try to grapple with this history. we'realking about places like evanston and, you ow, the state of california. so this is all happening here. you know, i never thoughi would see. and the question you're asking is, unow, how do we make them do more? i thk part of that is what what you guys have done is descendas, which was when my first story ran only the georgetown memory project. richard schilling, these independentonprofit, had identified a hdful of descendants. you know there are now known least 6000 descendants and and when people found out this history and you can imagine kind

of what it might be like to find out this kind of history that your ancesrs were sold to save thisnstitution. people i like to sayeople wept, people raged, and then they organiz. and i think that organization and that pressure has, you know, had an impact. let me ask you this, thoh, because we've we've had two questions now about. thk you for about, you know, history, teaching of history and what role that history should play in our current moment. you know, your bk arrives at a moment of backlash abouthe even teach ing history that this kindf history in institutions, not st, you know, colleges and in pple being, you know, fired. that'right. you know, showing classic works i think you talked about the fact you started this work. you know, ur book, your yo initial article landed before or some of the work that has become sort of polarizing, like the 6019 project for whatever fair

or unfair sort of the critiques about it. but ur book now lands in a moment where literally people are getting works thrown out of the classroom because one person colains, because one person doesn't like it. 'm just ierested in your take on that. yeah. i mean, i think we all know that history is a battlegrod right now and particularly history involving race and history involving, you know, the teaching about race and slavery. and for me, even when i first wrote that first article in 2016, this kind of work felt urgent. it feels even more urgent to me now. did feel dangerous, though? no. mean there are i have either colleagues of yours who. no longer allow their addresses to be known. i've done interviews with them where they won't let us, what city they're in because of fear. the threats to their families and children that a fact. right. so right. i'm just curious if right so if feels if it feels similarly fraught presenting this work. i mean this is a very the people you've comhere voluntarily you

are clearly very interested in open and receptive to. you know what rachel has to say and the work that she has done. i guarantee you it might not be the same in other. and so yeah, i think i think we as journalists, i think we all are more mindful thawe might have been a couple of years ago. certainly, i should say that members of my family have thought about, you know, and worried a bit about it in terms of, you know, where this lands and how people respond. but as i said, you know, to me, it feels it feels urgent. and, you know, i can't shy away from from doing the work. but i'm also and and mindful and careful, sir. my name brett. and wednesday, i was driving to the grocery store. i decided to turn on fresh air with terry gross. and you are. and i was feeling great it was

wonderful day and. 15 minutes unless i can really get into the story and 30 minutes or less. i started getting angry 45 minutes or less. i wa furious. so typically piggyback on some of the comments. if 45 minutes were left, i got that angry. how do you do your research without reading your teeth along the way and with the universities that's widespread. who'd from slavery with affirmative action decision coming down soon right. how do the universities are compelled since race is the focal point with the decision if it comes down against affirmative action, how does that handcuff the university's ease with this legacy issue that

exposed? is is this all of a sudden a different kind oissue that they're going to have that the courts but the schools, will they be hanuffed now because of a decision when now we have legitimate reasons why this legitimacy is. but anyway, you know what i'm talking about, right? you've got two questions there. one is about a, how do you how do you do this work? and as i mentioned, it's not it's not easy work to do. there are times, you know, where, you know. come across a document i read something and i just i just have to just i just stop. i ha to take a breath and close my eyes and take another

breath and i going because we need to know if i don't look and if i look away, then, you know, i think this work needs to be done. so you so i keep reading when you get up to the next morning, is it difficult to approach knowing what you get ready to get into, you know, so here's e thing is, you're right. 's. it is heartbreaking. it's it's terrifying. i mean, some sometimes i what i do, i think, again, as a journalist to be able tell the story, i need to kind put myself there. so i've conversations with my son, who's a teenager. and, you know, i think about those sisters, louisa and anna and the priest telling them, you've got to run. and i had two children, young

children. they had elderly parents. what do you do? do you run? what do you do? you know, i, i, you know, those things weigh on me, you know. but but the thing that's important to know, though, too, is that this is a story of heartbreak for sure. but it is also a story of resistance and struggle. it's also a story of family and faith and remember that i came to this as someone, a catholic woman who had never hearthat catholic enslaved anybody. i had never heard anything. i did not know about these people. so i very motivated and to tell a story that i felt had not been told. enslaved people had been left out of the. and so that what kept me going now on affirmative i was going to say that we've got about five

who would love to be pt of our conversation. yes you to a quick movie movie so you know i would say affirmative isolleges i'm a professor at nyu colleges all across the countryre bracing for this and readying for it. it's not, you know, part of my purview but you're right that a lot of are going to be trying to figure out what to do and and i willeave it alone. well, i asked toni morrison that question once, that story that you just asked. i asked her, you know, because some of her books are so deeply disturbing. and sohe details and i said, is it hard for you to write these stories? she said, as hard as it was to live them right. hi. how how is everyone this evening? my name is julie hawkins and is i am from southern maryland. my mom was from st mary's. my dadas from charles. i grew up strictly catholic where i came from in southern maryland like e said earlier, where we're from, that was the seat of catholicism. i know any of the religion until i left st county to go to

college because everybody i grew up with was catholic. catholic catlicism wasn't it wasn't a religion for us. it was our way of life. so i didn't hear this sto until about 2015. i on ancestry and our history was we're from here. we were from southern maryland, nowhere se. i kept connecting to someone down in louisiana and alabama and we went back and forth about, well, i know you're from the deep south, yada, yada make the story short because long winded about 2016, i started hearing about the grew to seven to also my son was at gonzaga college school in washington d.c. which also benefited right which also benefited with the students there because of the story started doing their own research of the people at gonzaga. my son thomas's mom there talking out your home, st mary's and the priest, as he said.

so old people from souern maryland. my grandmother had just we came from a family where i mean i had friends that would come down white friends that felt we were part italian becse my grandmother would be saying the rosary every day. that's all we knew i mean, seriouy, every day. no being if you needed something. she knew every saint to call to t you going. if you lost something of it. you know, u catholics know what i mean. it's not just the catholic, okay, so bridget, celine is a friend of mine. i stard talking to richard and he started filling me in along with other duties. 17. but here's ththing from people. for me, being from southern maryland, i'not a part of the families that was sold, but we are the part of the fans who lost family. right. and we want to find them. as a mter of fact, i'll go ahead and do my little stint now. but we're doing i got money from georgetown, and aeam to do a gathering in ryland over labor day weekend. so anybody that would like to come who is a descenda, we would welcome you because the maryland side, we're still trying to figure out who are the peoplee lost. but my family. we have etonians, i have bona.

she knows the surnames. i'm a wkins. we have dorsey. have a mason and we're still in maryland. but let me tell you is. when i found this out, i was so glad my granother just passed i was so glad cause she would have been devastated. we looked up, i mean, catholics so it was our way of life. when i found out i like someone just said, i cried, i became angry. and i even thoht about the catholic church. i'm catholic to this da my entire family had to think thugh it, talk myself through it. but this is what i want to know. and just like just said, i grew five miles from newtown manor, about ten miles from saint, and it goes my grandmother's bones family was from se kind of a plantation. these are the plantations. we never heard this storyt all. i went to catholic school. erybody i hadriest and nuns, and then i came from a community that was very you know, they honored their black history. they on it. we never heard this story. i've never heard of it. ver we never heard it from the

we never heard it from the jesuits. wod i guess, you know, never think about they wouldn't want you to know. we never heard about it. i was even wonderingyou know, like my grandmother, i was one and it was so much trauma. people were hidinghathey just didn't talk about it. and as the generations went on, it just went away because i'm from sth america, i'm from all these areas where the plantations were. yeah, well, i fe like there's a book iyou and you might consider. evybody keeps telling me, well, one you like that? did you have a specific question for rachel? you know, i just wanted to share that, but i did have the question. do you think it was that we did not know about this at all? so i think sometimes it was, you know, there'some some families where people have ld me they thought their elders delirately didn't tell them, i will say this, i don't mean to cut you off. my grandfather ud to tell me in his family as she grew up at newtown manor, but they were free people of color right. but he used to tell me that his grt grandmother would always

say, you know, they sold some of us down the river. right. and i had no idea what that was until this. and i think he was talking about the good, too. so thanks for sharing that. yeah and can we have you join us hi i'm lorraine carter. my question is quick. i'd like know because you are journalists and you say because you're journalist, you're kind of director of your information as far as being a journalist, what i wanted to know, once you started this book, once this book was exposed, what kind of dialog did you with the diet, the diaries that the these. yeah, right. and the interaction you had because now you have this exposure and everyone, particularly in america, this is a hiddentory that is not being told. so you are telling the story and wanting to know as far as have i have looked back sure know what your posion okay and even

though you say you're a journalist, what is your position to bring to bring it further for more for the catholic church, just like georgetown an endowment and i understand giving out scholarships whatever this is not compared to what happened to the people in maryland. so i'm wondering, because y have the what the direct. line to be having a dialog with them have you had that in what. if you have had it, what wathe outcome or what is being actually done right? it's not what they're giving the people that are enslaved because erica, most of us are people. we're in say this is just one portion. yeah. so, you know, again, i am a journal so i don't get involved

with, you know, directing policy or even advocate for things what, wh i am very involved in and care and what my next stage of my work is trying to create. i'm working on creating a digital archive of that would it's not just universities it's not just the catholic church, other religious organizations. it's banks, it's insurance companies. i want to create a digital archive where the data sets of. those recos are available so that journalists scholar, community members, families can see them and then taksteps that they want to take that communities want to tak advocates want to take. but it's not it's not my role as a journalist. and also so what you were saying that there was no actual direct interaction with the diocese with, you know. yeah, i don't not certainly not

in terms of. no one's asking me you no one from the catholic church is asking me or hey rachel swarns what should we do? or like it's just not the role that i play. it's not okay. yeah. so you just wrote the book. so this is exposure for that. do want to take it further, rit? you know, there's a similar project it's very interesting in the united kingdom where, the people who whose vast fortunes, including members of the royal, were built on enslavement, particularly in the islands. and it's very interesting to see these folks reckon with, in ct, there was a journalist who actually left the bbc, when she realized that, you know that's so interesting. ye. who once she realize that you know her family had been and she wanted to dig to it further she she couldn't do both. so she has now decided decided that that is going to be her focus. her focus? yes, ma'am. we can we can go just pull it down. yeah. yeah, just.

okay, i'm just just. yeah, just talk, okay? just talk. okay. so they work. oh, rachel, i want to publicly acknowledge you and thank you. we talked back in, of course, may of 2016 after the article with, the breaking big article. we has a mixing. oh, by the way, my name is rochelle prater, but wanted to thank you because i, i know the title that article was a million questions, which i had at the time. and thank god a lot of them have been answered. but the point i wanted to make clear, i said something to you in an article that i felt like i won the lottery and. for those people who may look at that article and read that article, i want to share is the emotional because my family was some of the family that was to

louisiana and how i won the lottery. i've had so much in my life. family loss there's gone and would have loved to have known this history and understood it. but now i have cousin julie. i have cousin peggy. i have cousin jeremy. i ve cousin kevin porter. one of the things that has happened is that families have now found each other these families that wereplit by the sale have founeach other. so so that splits your efforts. th is the return on that story breaking is that we are reuniting anthis is failure in african-american community. this typicly doe't happen and it continues to happen every day. and just like julie, our hearts beatt one on that goal, we go find as ma as we and we to come togher, as many as we n. and for theady that was before, that's how we impa how

to deal withhis hiory not only know on a national and a world level. thank you so much a i think this will be our final as you. yes. hello. and then after your ritual and i put you on the spot i'd like you to kind give us a concluding fire after this dy shares her her thoughts with us. justive us something to take. i just want to thanyou. and i'm really looking forward to your arche of records my family name also includes the name, camp and given but we're from virginia and given the exchange and trafficking of people in the delmarva pinsula, i that more records wille useful to. me too becau that research is hard to do. and i also wanted to push back gently on this concept that it was oppression that bred oppression, giving the people bulls that came down centuries before. and the catholic that basically

said enslaved to build the new world, just want to know what you think of that and know if you could just expand on that when you say that the papal. yes, these were i knew. ay. but what you said earlier that that the priests somewhat you know, they had to enslave people because they couldn't enslaved native people,ou know. no. well, first of all, let meust say that that that was not racialisphrasing. that was one of the things i was saying, is that what was interesting to me that i learn from the book was that how well, i mean, don'we see this in the world today, younow, you are angry and afraid, so you then oppress somebody else beuse you're angry and afraid and a sort of i mean, given it a law, i'm just wondering, because the peopleills were law once those came down, it just became the motive operation versus that being becse youere oppressed in europe. i just think, you know, i just pushin back that, wonderg your comments response to that.

yeah. and justo that i'm clear, the you're talng about when i said what the when they came and were seeing themselves as persecuted and feeling like ty wanted to join, you know, nice society part of that it was kind of pushing them away, that nd of thing yeah so they they, iean they did talk about that know they didn't talk about, you know, wanting to be. the truth is, of course, that it was the economy me and that they were also you're absolutely right, very explicit about what their intentions were and why they were doing both terms of rome, in terms of, you know, slaving people. you was part of conquest in and about, you know, about money and and with the sale even the

priest who was pushing the hardest for it had a vision of building schools in the northeast. and he was very, very, very clear that in order to do that, he wld need money and the jesuits would need money to do it. and this was the way that they we going to do it. i said, thank you. so, rachel, thank you for ending this evening with us. thank all of you for being here and spending this time with us. and i understand you're going to sign signs and also sign some books, but i just was wondering if i could just ask to kind of leave us with a concluding thought. i mean, there's so much here. there's so much. it's just, as you said, 's a story of heartbreak. it's a story of love it's a story of resistance. it's a story of reunion. it's a story a family and coming, families broken apart by violence. families brought together through love and persistence. and i just. yes, wondering about that. but i and you said that so nicely yourself.

but i guess if would just kind of give us a concluding thought, like when do you wou you put your you close your laptop night and when you thought about what this project has meant to you and to the families, what is it that comes to mind? what what do you what do you when you're going to go on to anothe project some point? but i'm just saying what, what has thiseant to you? i'm i think it's important for these folks, these folks who are long gone to be seen and and be recognized and to be acknowledged. and i think that it's important for us as american is to understand that this is our histy. i think the wk that i do, i'm from a historian and that, you know, i'm gaged with the past, but i'm engaged with the past because i'm really interested in how we liv with this history and what we do witht. and so i think whamatters to me is, again, that we are we are

of it that we interrogate history, that we don't just you know, journalists are accustomed to this. righ if there's if the ceo ihahanding you a financial recoryour asking questions, ask questions, the history that you've been taught, why is it that you don't things and and i think just recognize using these folksnd having them seen is really important rachel swarns descendants all of you, thank you all so much for being here. thank