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the public drives. get it straight from the source on c-span. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. from the nation's capital to wherever you are. the opinion that matters the most is your spirit this is what democracy looks like. >> a conversation now on k-12 education the issue of school choice, our guest is paul to perna vice president at ed choice. mr. do perna, explain to us what you do at ed choice what your mission is and how you accomplish it pretty soon i think you for having me. ed choice launched in 1996 we are a national nonpartisan 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. the mission is to advance freedom opportunities and choice for all in k-12 education as a pathway to successful lives.

our work sticks to build awareness and understanding of a k-12 education ecosystem that empowers every family to choose the best schooling and learning environment for their child needs. we inform and educate policymakers, parent groups, education leaders and entrepreneurs in a number of areas, legal affairs, litigation, we do parent trainings and workshops. >> on the education ecosystem, how do k-12 kids in this country access education? what percentage are in public school versus private school, charter school, home school, how does it break up? >> it is a great question. it is something that we have seen movement in recent years, especially through the pandemic and the post pandemic world that we live in. approximately 10 to 11% are in private schools, about five to

6% are in public charter schools and right now we estimate, not just ed choice, but others estimate homeschooling is probably about five to 6% which is double that it was before the pandemic. the rest are in public district schools and traditional public schools. >> you have surveyed parents about what they want if they had the choice of any of those options, what do you find in those surveys? how different is it from that ecosystem that you described? >> we have been conducting surveys for about 12 years, we see this disconnect between what parents tell us in their survey and what they prefer in terms of the type of school that they would like to enroll their child in, compared to real world enrollment patterns. in contrast to those numbers that i shared a moment ago, we

see roughly about one third of parents would choose to send their child to a private school if they had the opportunity. about 35 to 40% would choose to send their child to a public district school and roughly 10% would like to homeschool and 10% would like to enroll in a public charter school. >> when it comes to accomplishing school choice, your mission, what are the ways to go about it? what is the difference between a school voucher verges versus a education savings account? >> we support and what drives our mission is funding should follow the child who to obtain the best education learning environment for the child specifics needs. first lodging n public policy has taken the form of education savings accounts, or more i call it

esas, which is been around for more than a decade, first in arizona and expanding to more than a dozen states today. and school vouchers, which provide tuition, to offset tuition for private school tuition. and public charter schools allow families to enroll their child into a public school next chartered and has a different set of needs and regulations that compare to a lot more freedom to have more autonomy than public district schools. so we fully support funding following the child, and that is the key driver to give the most flexibility to parents and their children, and to adapt to

the needs. i am a parent of a sixth rated land an eighth-grader, and flexibility is a word when you're a parent. and we see these programs, now more than 80 programs around the country, affording that kind of flexibility to families? 32 states plus washington, d.c. and puerto rico for the >> are you looking for national legislation on this fund, or is the way to do this through the individual states or even on the local level? [ screaming ] we believe that local is best so our focus has been at the state and local does, since we were founded li more than 25 years ago. so we think that the closer policies can see set to the lease families that are being affected and served by those families is better. so state

and local is here we focus as an organization? what have we specifically been able to accomplish in 2023 on school choice and expending that choice option? [ screaming ] the last two years have been really users for the education of choice movements. so we see that just a smear in 2023, seven states enacted new programs and four of those are universal programs. so that in arkansas, iowa, oklahoma and utah, every student in those states are eligible for an education savings account. and that builds on inthe moment that we seen, even going back to the last couple years, where we've also seen arizona and west virginia launch universal programs. my own state of indiana, we have also expanded eligibility lately, so it's near universal for our choice scholarship

program, which is a voucher program. so we've seen these new programs launch this school year and then we've also seen states expanding the eligibility for students in the last couple of years, which ec really has made this a very exciting time to be in this line of work, and we expect the momentum to just continue to build as more families are s enrolling their children in these programs. and being able to have that kind of flexibility, whether they want to stay in the school that they have currently, or if the circumstances dictate a need for a change, and i think that a lot of parents can relate to that, that kind of

need for flexibility. so this is a really exciting time. >> c-span viewers are familiar with randi weingarten, the president of american federation of teachers. she was on this program a little over two months ago and one of the questions we asked her about was the push to expand school choice. this is what she had to say. >> still today, over the course of decades, between 85% and 90% of parents send their kids to public schools, and that's with lots of different charters and private schools, things like that. this new voucher movement right now about universal vouchers that you see in florida, that's actually been paying for disney trips and kayaks and things like that, which most people would think was inappropriate. this movement to defund public schools is very, very worrisome, because what's going to end up happening is that if the public schools don't get

the money that they need to serve all the kids, who are thee kids who are going to fall behind? who are the kids who are at risk? and i think it's not just the corporatization, it's not just the privatization, it's the sense of taking money away from kids who really, really need it, and making sure that we have that for all kids. so that's a fight we have to have. >> paul aparna, those comments from randi weingarten? >> i come at this as a researcher and also as a parent, so i wear a couple different hats. i think that what you see is this kind of flexibility that parents need right now. i don't want to hear -- that randi weingarten's comments were addressing those kinds of needs. and i think that point of view that ms. weingarten shared is very system driven and not

necessarily taking into account the turbulence and disruptions that families have felt over the last few years. so lawmakers and policymakers around the country, in a number of states, have really started to address the need to give parents more options, and students more options and flexibility. whether that's in the public system that we know it, in the district schools, which is totally fine if those schools are working for those students, or to give more flexibility to attend a public charter school, or to use education savings account for multiple purposes like tutoring, like online courses, to send their child to a different type of private school, even if that's just for a year. or more. and so i think that those

comments in some ways have this tin year to what parents have been saying over the last decade and through the pandemic, not addressing what families have been speaking up more and more about over the last couple years, in large part through the pandemic. we have seen programs launching in the last 10-15 years, but not at the same rate we have the last couple of years. and these new programs are going to be serving a wide range of students, and largely students who are in disadvantaged situations, however you do find that disadvantage. so i think that the parents --

they want to have maximum flexibility, more options, to provide the best schooling environment, learning environment for their children. >> if you want to talk school choice with paul diperna of ed choice, you can do so this way. phonelines built a little bit differently. for educators and teachers its 202-478-8000. for parents it's 202-748-2001. all others, give us a call at 202-748-8002. up first is jeremy in st. louis. thanks for calling. you are on with paul diperna. >> thanks for having me on your show. first time color, longtime listener. one of your last segments a guest asked if there was any kind of institutionalized racism going on in the country, and what could be, and it

stares right in our face. it's the public education department. the moment we decide to fund our schools based off of property taxes, we become a racist country because the benefits only accede to those who are doing well off, and of course people are still going to stay for it. the fact we know there is one school district that is better than the other, we can send our children there to get a better education, is exactly what's wrong with the american school system part of the school choice i think is a joke. i think the evidence has come out that it hasn't really helped the kids come out that much. what needs to be done is a complete paradigm shift and overhaul of our education system and the way we work at it, from a federal level. we should be committing tons, as much resources as possible. my slogan is over fund public education because it hasn't happened before. they cut it and h cut it and cu it. we need to have a system set up

where we are looking at the best teachers using the best methods, so we caate our children across the country the best possible way. that's the only way we're going to get rid of all this crime and all these problems that we are having, if we actually take the time and figure out how our children actually learn and put those tools in the teachers hands and get more teachers per children, per class, across thek board. stop with the private schools, the charter schools. >> got your points. let me let hold diperna respond. >> so i appreciate those comments. i think -- and understand the frustration that is being communicated there. i think the way these programs and school choice programs, but when i would disagree is where these school choice programs are a completely different way of providing an education for children, and where the funding does follow the student, and gives that kind of options that weren't there historically in our public system. so i think that what we see is this just a seachange really in a number of states where the nv

mobility of families is greatly increased. they are in much more control over their child's learning and schooling environment, and that is different than it was 15-20 years ago, for sure, and in a lot of cases before the pandemic around the country. so i think those changes are really going to make a big difference in a lot of young people's lives. >> to grand rapids, michigan, that line for teachers and educators. this is michael. good morning. michael, are you with us? >> hello? >> go ahead, sir. what grade do you teach? >> can you hear me? >> yes sir, what grade do you teach? >> i'm a science teacher, i

taught everything from elementary school, middle school, high school and adult ed, okay? i'm retired about five years now. this private school or charter school idea smacks of plantation schools where only the rich could go to school, or the rich kids, the plantation owner's family or whatever could go to school, now bring it a little bit further. went public education became real, and that was when we were at the height of the immigration, 1890, so on and so forth, what was the reason to get an education for all, including the immigrants who needed language? this thing today smacks of the plantation school, education for all, no. charter schools, et cetera,

that's education, digger dated education for the rich. and when schools tried to be segregated, the segregated schools in the south, some schools, virginia being one, actually closed the public schools, started charter schools so the black kids couldn't go to school. so i don't trust the charter school movement. >> paul diperna. >> i appreciate michael's point of view as a retired educator. but i would disagree we're moving back to a more segregated situation, because of public charter schools or choice. that couldn't be farther from tc the truth. some of the highest quality research, expert mental research has shown that mschoo tend to be less segregated when

they are participating in a school choice program. outcomes have been modestly positive or more positive for those students who are attending charter schools or enrolled in participating private school choice programs. we have, at our organization, and you will publication called the 123s of school choice. you can find it on our website. every year we review the different outcomes arising out of school choice programs, and by far the positives have -- are positive. the outcomes are positive. and there are some that show no effects and a few that show negative. but by far the research is positive on school choice programs and especially those that have been serving disadvantaged students and

black students, latino students, and those coming from low income households have been served for years in cities like milwaukee, cleveland, and in some other parts of the country where the vast, vast majority of students being served are d coming from low income households. they were black students or latino students, and so we see these programs lifting up rather than -- and be more integrated than what the caller had described. >> st. louis, missouri. george, good morning. you are next. >> morning. i'm concerned that if the value of the voucher is not high enough, or if the private schools are allowed to charge

more than the value of the voucher, then it will be discriminatory because the poor kids still won't be able to afford to go to the private school, and it will just -- the kids who have the resources can go but the kids that don't cannot. so then they tend to be a subsidy for the middle class rather than for everybody. >> paul diperna, take that up . how do you figure out the value of these vouchers and what is it right now? >> so it really -- it varies across programs and the different states, and so, often times some states will differ

the value between elementary, k- 8 education or high school and nine through 12 education with somewhat of a higher value for high schools. so these can range anywhere from -- in the specifically education savings account programs and voucher programs, a also called scholarship programs, they tend to be in that 5 -- $5000 and $8000 range. for high schools it can be $11,000, $12,000 or more. a case of an example, in arizona they actually take a percentage of the state per student funding for that student's school district and they take a certain percentage, around 90%, and convert that into -- and put that into the education savings account. that's how they determine the value. to the caller's concerns about the value falling short, one thing that we've seen, and we've conducted a number of

surveys at five at schools around the country, is that private schools often will include other types of financial aid as well, specifically for those students who are coming from low income households, to help them to cover the cost for attending that school. and so there's the public funding through the education savings account or the scholarship program, that often times private schools will have their own financial made financial aid mechanism specifically to serve low income students. >> to terry, a parent in oregon. go ahead next, you're on with paul diperna. >> yes, good morning. i am reminded of when betsy divorce was leaving her position under the trump administration, and she was emotional, begging the public

and whoever she was speaking to, to not let go of this charter, the charter schools and the private accounts, and also talking about it. i tell you i was sickened and i am sickened by this. public schools have created, have served this country well. when they were funded. and the main thing that's been happening over the years is taking the funding away and privatizing it, just like the gop wants to privatize medicare, social security, all of it. and the book banning and the lgb -- the rigid christian philosophy that is so consuming in the republican party, and i

believe that all you're going to end up doing is creating a workforce that is so dumbed down and so servient to corporations for their job, for their monthly paycheck, but we have now but it's not as bad, and their greed, and the fact that they can't find workers. well you'll end up with some pretty stupid people coming up. >> got your point. paul diperna, why don't you jump in? >> i -- a couple things i would say. on the point about public school serving all children well, i think history would -- is a stark contrast to that. public schools have certainly served some or a lot of students well. our children are in the local public schools and we are happy

with our public schools. but for a lot of students, for a significant segment of the population over the course of time have not been served well and they've been locked in to those schools because they don't have that funding following mechanism to help them exit and find a better option. and that better option could be another public school across district lines, but historically families have been zoned to a specific school and it's in a school district, and has been a great constraint to the mobility and flexibility, and to address their child's needs. so i think i would disagree with the caller that the way we've been approaching k-12 education for a century has been serving everyone well. that is not the case. and what we've seen now, coming out of the pandemic, where there's been a lot written

about learning loss and we've had the national assessment of educational progress that means test the last couple years tell us how much students have fallen behind since before the pandemic, where we are seeing historic declines on that national assessment for nine- year-olds and 13-year-olds, fourth and eighth graders, that we have not seen in decades. so something, and the response right now, everything should be on the table, and i think that some states are taking it on themselves to try to provide that kind of everything on the table approach, and that's really how we see school choice programs being able to provide all those options, everything on the table for families to do what they can for their children's needs, and hopefully will be able to recover and address those learning losses

over time. >> how old are your kids? and are there charter schools and private school options in zionsville, indiana, where you are? and how did you decide that public school was the right choice for them? >> our sixth and eighth graders, we have sixth grade and eighth graders, they are in the public district school. so we found that this was the best learning environment for them. they have certain needs that are being met well so far and in our schools. but i emphasize for anyone, and for any parent i think can relate to this, what is happening right now, what is great today, what is going well today may not be going well a month from now, six months from

now, a year from now or next school year. so i think that indiana, fortunately we live in a state that does provide a lot of options through an education savings account program, for nearly universal choice scholarship program. we have charter schools in the indianapolis area, where we are living, but other states don't have those types of options. we also have open enrollment so that students have a little more flexibility to cross district lines, to attend another type of public school. but some states don't have some of those options or any of those options. and so that's something that drives us in a choice and with our partners to try to bring more understanding and awareness of the school choice : programs that have launched in the last few years and provide

more opportunities for kids. >> ed choice.org is about 10 minutes left. paul diperna, vice president of research and innovation at ed choice and this is vicki out of baldwin, missouri. line for parents, good morning. >> good morning, wow, i have a comment and a question. my comment is i live in baldwin, missouri, which is a suburb of saint louis. the schools are really good out in the suburbs but once you get in the city, they closed down i think 11 schools in the city last year. so we do have a lot of students coming out to the west side of st. louis, which is great because it makes the schools more diverse, and i like that. on number two, i'm a single parent. that is on disability, and i don't care how much of a school

voucher you give me, i will never, ever be able to afford for my kid to go to a private school. and so, when you start taking all of those dollars out of the public school system, where parents really need a good system for their kids to go to, so they can keep up with the private school, you are just taking more and more dollars ch away, and that's why i have a real problem with the school choice. because some parents like me as myself are on a single budget and can never -- i don't care how much of a voucher you give me, i am never, ever going to reach that threshold for my kid to go to a private school. >> pulled diperna? >> what we see right now i guess a couple points i'd like to address, and i think this is something that often comes up about the fiscal effects of school choice programs, and

there's been a lot of research done. one of my colleagues, marty luken, he's the director of our fiscal research center, he's studied these programs for years and in our annual review, to this point about there have been 74 studies looking at the fiscal effects of private school programs. 68 of those 74 show positive effects and actually that net positive gains in terms of the funding that is staying in the public school district for the public schools, and so the vast majority of the high quality research on the fiscal effects of programs is positive, and a large part of that is because the values of the scholarships or the education savings accounts are set at such a way that it's below the state per student funding for that student and so it's written into the law or the rules and

regulations to ensure that there is some, at least at a minimum, a neutral effect, but often times what we've seen in our research is that there's actually a positive, when more money is staying around $3500 per students on average savings for every child who uses a scholarship program or other type of school choice program. so to note the other comment of about the ability to pay for the tuition of a private school, most of the educational savings account programs and choice scholarship programs, the values of those scholarships and the essays are

at around the average, if not above the average for a private school in those states, so at least at the starting point when you look at the programs being enacted and being implemented at this stage, they are meeting at least the average of the private school tuition or at the k-8 level or at the high school level. >> to avon, ohio, this is cheryl. good morning, you're next. >> good morning. i just have a comment to make as far as some of the private schools for special education. when the public school cannot provide what the child needs as far as dyslexia, there programs aren't sufficient for the child and the child has to go to a specialized school. the tuition is outrageous. it's 7 to 10 times what the cost per capita in a public school would be for the private school. but when you come even for most of the charters are for low

income. well what happens when you're middle income and the tuition, say, is $35,000 a year for your child to learn how to read? it's not enough. i just have a problem with that, that the private schools are charging so much more than what they're giving to the public school. that was just my comment. thank you. >> mr. diperna? >> so what we've seen in our surveys of private schools is the average tuition is around $5000, $6000 roughly, to be even less in some states . so what the caller had brought up is clearly certainly an outlier0 and an exception to what we found to be the average. for high schools it tends to be in that $9000-$12,000 range

nationally, per student, and it could be higher or lower depending on which state, and particularly even if it's in an urban area, suburban or rural and small town area. that could also be a factor. >> a question from meeker on twitter, saying if a private school receives money from school vouchers, with that private school then have to abide by title ix and be forced to allow students, no matter their background, i.e. a catholic school couldn't deny a trans student. >> so there are rules and regulations among private schools and in the code -- so before there are any program enacted in a state, all states have some regulations, rules on private schools to start out

with, and a lot of those involve addressing discrimination, and then on top of those rules and regulations, in that context of a school choice program, there can be additional rules and regulations put on those private schools. that varies from state to state. >> time for just a couple more phone calls here, less than five minutes left before we end our program today. this is richard on that line for teachers and educators, out of little rock, arkansas. good morning. >> yes. we've been through all kinds of drama in little rock, as you know, which schools, populations trying to separate themselves. i just don't understand. we are creating a parallel school system, is what we are doing. in reality, if you succeed and

every child that wants to pull out, pulls out, whatever, we're going to be left with two school systems. i just don't understand, sir, why you don't put all of your efforts, not just you but the people that are pushing on this, all their efforts into improving our public schools for the common good, and you danced around trying to describe schools that don't do well, why are they that way? what's that problem? we need to solve that problem, not just create a place to escape. we need to think about the common good. i'll listen to your response. >> mr. diperna? >> i think we are all in this for the common good, and what i would say, though, is that we've been trying that for years and decades, that approach. and things have stalled. there are still a lot of students who are trapped in

schools and that may not be serving them well. so i think a lot of parents would feel we already have separate systems and separate opportunities, and segregated opportunities among -- they've had that for many years. so coming out of the pandemic, what we see in our polling signals that parents and educators are ready for something different, and you had mentioned at the beginning, the comments about a lot of frustration and hard times. something has come out in our surveys about teachers and most recently what we published about a month ago is that teacher morale is at this extremely low, and it is half of what it was right before the

pandemic. our first survey of teachers was in march of 2020, and we have seen the percentage of teachers who think that k-12 education is going in the right direction, has been cut in half, and so, educators, teachers are ready for change, and i'm not sure if the same way of doing things is going to address that. that's something that we will continue to survey and ask questions about. two teachers, two parents, to better understand what their concerns are today. and how things can change and to try different approaches, multiple approaches, and not have one, just one approach that's rigid for parents and educators alike. >> we'll end it there for now.

poll diperna is vice president of research and education at ed choice. it's ed choice.org. appreciate your time this ey morning. >> thank you for having me, it's been fun. >> open forum, what's on your mind? richard is first in tsparta, ne jersey. democrat, good morning. >> good morning, first i wanted to explain all politics in one minute. politics is about people getting along and moving forward. they have to be nda little empathetic to people. one of the great things about humans is the empathy they have. some people have lots of empathy. they have a person who would give their left kidney to someone they don't even know. other people are not empathetic. they are very non-empathetic. they don't want to give anybody anything, and that's the definition of social, by the way, very non-empaet