ability -- perseverance ofthe disability community. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are joined now by zoom by bishop william barber,

president of the breach founding director at the center for public theology at yale. we call him reverend, he's an author. his latest book is entitled reverend, what got you interested in writing about white poverty in america? guest: first of all, thank you for having me. my editor, harsh world, we have been writing this book: our lives. as we look at the reality of poverty in america now, one third of america is unified by the reality of poverty and low wages. you are talking about 140,000,004 and low-wage persons in this country. you are talking about 58%, 68% of african-americans, 26 million.

but then you talk about 30% of white brothers and sisters, over 66 million are poor and low-wage , all the way from economic ruin. oftentimes what we see in the way we judge policy is mythology guiding the conversation rather than the truth. that poverty is not that big of an issue. if you look at the wit -- the way that measures politics is to look at is a better way and a measurement that must be used. policy as a black issue, often we talk about it and we show a black woman on welfare, which is racist towards black people but it dismisses tens of millions of white brothers and sisters who our poor in this country. we are united by this policy.

the mythology, for instance, that pale skin is a shared interest. that only black people want change in america. the mythology that poverty is only a black issue and that we cannot overcome our divisions. we thought we had to write a book that challenges those mythologies and calls on the nation to stop ignoring 140 million people. 43% of their adult population 61% of and poverty in this country, hundreds die every day from poverty and low wages. that's 290 something thousand people per year. that's epidemic levels. if anyone else was killing some money, we don't talk about it

and we tend to racialized or diminish it host: these myths, how long has this mythology in america been with us? guest: well, it has a long history. you know, back in the 60's there was it called the white southern strategy and a part of that strategy was to turn black-and-white people against each other. 1965, at the end of the montgomery march on the steps of the alabama state house, dr. king said the greatest fear of the greedy oligarchs in this country is what the masses of poor knee grows and white people coming together to form a voting block that could fundamentally shift the economic architecture of the country. down through the years there has been this attempt to ensure

separation. one book, called "a time of evolution," said that the book was about positive polarization, to say that black poverty was the cause of personal morality and failure, and that white poverty was the cause of black people getting things, brown people getting things and created no housing. but at the same time the policies were hurting both. it's really been driven by a policy because in the country right now the first side of those numbers is that poor people, poor low-wage people now make up 30% of the electorate. in so-called battleground states where the margin of victory was 3% in the presidential race in the last election, poor and low-wage people make up 40% to

43%. in those states, for instance, in wisconsin, the presidential election was 20,000 votes. one million low-wage people did not vote. in north carolina, 174,000, over one million didn't vote in fact poor and low-wage people of all races, creeds, and color came together around an agenda for wages and health care, demanded fully funded public education and wages to lift people out of poverty immediately, if they said we could end and abolish povey, if they came together around an agenda like that, i think in fact the numbers say in most states, battleground

states, it would just be 3% to 5% of low-wage people united together, the largest swing vote in the country. those that don't want to engage in these kinds of progressive policies and would rather engage in trickle-down economics and blame poor whites and low-wage black people for their problems, they might look at the systemic reasons and are afraid of the block coming together. what we say, we open the book with a solution. we come together, fusion politics, talking about why we cannot ignore the crisis are at times it makes all of us to shame, the level of death is us

tremble. all of it's not necessary. what we know is that the greedy, those who would rather have tax cuts for corporations rather than lifting up the poor are very powerful and want to see the division. what we are honoring is coming together across the lines of race and class. not denying race, but not denying the truth either, because that is a power block that can fundamentally shift the electoral realities of this country. thereby fundamentally addressing and shifting the policy of the country. guest: the book again -- host: the book again, they came out last month. i want to give the viewer the phone lines for calling in. (202) 748-8000, democrats.

republicans, (202) 748-8001 we'll get to your calls as you're calling in. reverend barber, the new republican vice presidential pick by donald trump, j.d. vance, has written a lot about white poverty in his time. specifically in his book, "hillbilly he will ji." did you read that book? what did you think about how he describes this issue? guest: not only did we read it but we have a major piece in that in end white poverty. my co-editor writes a piece about that and i have a comment that one of the problems with vance's presentation, he starts out you think saying that he wantses to lift up those in poverty, particularly what he calls hillbillies. but then if you keep reading he basically blames the poor for their poverty. and said -- in the book he actually goes against trump in his book, but -- and in later comments. but then he says that the

problem is that white poor brothers and sisters are not religious enough, have walked away from religion, have walked away from their morality. and basically he then becomes a cover for those who don't want to shift policy but want to blame people for their problem. what we're saying in our book is that is all wrong. in this country, we've not raised the minimum wage for 15 years, since 2009. income for c.e.o.'s has gone up. prices have gone up. people have been required to do more work. but we've not raised the minimum wage for 15 years. $7.25. $2.13 for waiters. it doesn't matter what your color is, if you make $7.25 an hour, there's not a county in this country where you can work a minimum wage job, a federal minimum wage job, and afford a basic two bedroom apartment.

health care in this country, there are more than 87 million people who are without health care or who are underinsured. health care should not be connected to your job. it should be connected to your humanity. what we know is that in every state that is led by republicans, or extremist, i don't like to say republicans because my grandfather was a lincoln republican, an eisenhower republican, but everyone is led by extremists who call themselves republican. they're anti-raising minimum wage. anti-health care. anti-fully funding public education. and they are anti-labor rights. the very things that have been proven that lift people out of poverty. it's not a handout, it's making the playing field more level so that people can rise up. i've been in appalachia, in kentucky, east kentucky, and met people like from sturgil who

died from black lung disease, he was a coal miner. he talked about how politicians allowed the coal mines to be taken over by multinational countries and then steal their labor rights, they didn't grandfather their labor right, they messed over their pensions. he died in our movement. i met with people like pam in west virginia who introduced me to poor white women who are working hard every day but less than a basic minimum wage of $15 an hour, they can't even afford basic needs for women during the month. they have to sell tacos on tuesdays to exist. i met pam down in bell haven, north carolina. before she died in a high school parking lot because the politicians in north carolina refused to expand medicaid, it caused rural hospitals to close. pam, a white woman, was the first casualty of that closing. she died in a high school

parking lot only five minutes away from the former hospital. this is who we're talking about when we talk about the poor. and j.d. vance, what he does is basically blames people. which is the old line. blames people. people used to call poor white, white trash and those kinds of things. we're saying no. no, no, no. that is not right. poverty is created by immoral policies. we don't have a lack of resources, we don't have a lack of problem solving realities. we could to abolish and end poverty. if you passed today and we almost did it, except for eight democrats, and every republican in 2020, voted against raising the minimum wage. i want my listeners to hear that. eight democrats and every republican voted against raising the minimum wage to a basic living wage of $15 an hour. which was a request of the civil

rights movement in 1963. to raise the minimum wage of $2 an hour, index it with inflation which would make it about $17, $18 today. if that had been passed, then 52 million poor and low income, not black, but poor and low wage people, black, white, brown, would have been lifted out of poverty with one piece of legislation that would have pumped $330 billion into the economy. but people would rather give a tax break to the corporations that are already making gross amounts of money than to simply raise the minimum wage that we have not raised since 2009. you don't see vance talking about these issues. instead he kind of turns in on poor and low-wage people, his own people, rather than lift up the kind of policies that would make a difference. again, -- host: i have plenty of callers waiting to chat with you. i only have 45 minutes with you. the lines are full. so i don't think i'll even be

able to get to the ones we have on the lines right now. let me try to get them in because they're happy to chat with you. this is marcus in columbus, ohio, a democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. i want to thank reverend barber for being here and really continuing on like a lot of the legacy of what martin luther king has passed on and i appreciate the clarity in which you deliver the message because it's not just about seeing people and not saying slurs. there's an economic rights that have to also be delivered to make sure everybody, black, white, indigenous, doesn't matter, everybody has a chance to what people should have. and my question is not so much towards all the things that you're doing now, but more towards organizing, to making a difference for the future and also trying to connect this to the international struggle. so i do want to ask, you know,

what is the poor people's campaign's position on the genocide in gaza, but also how do we start moving towards the international as well and not just focusing on making demands for the people in power now, in the election cycle, but organizing in between those election cycles to actually build power to connect communities in ways that the government isn't doing, so that we can help our people now. i'm curious as to what do we do in between time for the election? guest: along with my co-chair, and others, we've been mobilizing for years now, since 2018. we started with a study called the souls of poor folk. and we looked at five interlocking injustices that continue to exacerbate poverty. and this was before covid. because covid didn't create

poverty, it exacerbated and exposed it. those five areas are systemic -- policies of systemic racism, systemic poverty, ecological devastation, denial of health care, the war economy and the false narrative of religious nationalism that continues to take religion and turn it and use it as a weapon of hate and anti-poor rather than a faith of love and justice for all and lifting up the poor and good news to the poor. now we've mobilized over 40 some coordinating committees around the country and on june 29, we had one of the largest tkpwragt, of poor and low-wage brothers and sisters and faith leaders, tens of thousands of people showed up in washington, d.c. several million online. and we announced that we were putting out a 17-point agenda and that we were going to mobilize and touch 15 million of the 30 million poor and low wage infrequent voters across the

country with an agenda. telling them to look at candidates, not based on just their innuendos and their personality, but on their policy record. where do they stand on certain issues? and part of that agenda was we call for peace around the world. we stood against what happened on october 7 and innocent people, women and children were killed. we also said we were against what was happening with netanyahu and the gross retaliation against the palestinian innocent people, weupg and children. but -- women and children. but more so, a plan of peace. what we said was, we could not ignore 295,000 people dying every year from poverty and low wages and then be concerned about other issues. we also said we're concerned about genocide of poor people in congo and in yemen and somalia. around the world. but we have to deal with the reality here, otherwise we don't have credibility.

and we believe, we're mobilizing and organizing people across racial lines and, again, when i talk about the poor, i'm talking about that woman, not just asking for spare change, but the person who bags your groceries but can't even hardly afford food in that same place. the person who works in a manufacturing place and then sleeps in their carat night. the person who does health care but can't afford to go to the hospital or maybe doesn't even have health insurance. we must expand our understanding of who we're talking about when we're talking about poor and low-wage people. and we must mobilize and what we're saying to poor, low-wage folk, it's time to go on the offensive now and rise. because we have this powerful voting block that can fundamentally transform the american electorate. host: on the wage issue, tony writes in, as you were making your comments via twitter, saying, minimum --

guest: well, there is this argument that wage inflation creates inflation. inflation comes by the gross activity of price gouging and war and what we recently went through, the pandemic, and what it cost. when you say minimum wage, we're saying the federal minimum wage ought to be at least $15. the federal minimum wage. of course in other states, that's going to require wages to be looked at based on cost of living in those particular states. but isn't it amazing that the only place we tend to say, people having more money won't work, is when it comes to poor and low wage working people. everybody else money is good. corporations, good. give us more. give us $2 trillion in tax cuts. c.e.o.'s, good, give us millions

of dollars in parachutes for when we retire. but when it comes to people who are striving hard every day, remember whether we talk about raising a living wage, we're talking about poor and low-wage working people, and among which the majority are white. in fact, the majority of poor and low-wage people are women. so over 73 million of the people we're talking about are white women in this country. and so -- not white women, they're women. and a large majority of them are white women. who are the largest majority of the poor and low-wage in this country. we have to stop living in these mythologies. to me it boggles my mind that people would fight people that are working, having a living wage instead would argue that the wage -- $7.25 an hour, basically is about 13*dz,000 a year -- $13,000 a year. there are politicians that argue

that a living wage is only about -- that you're out of poverty if you make above $13,000 a year. so they argue that if you make $7.25 an hour, you are in the lower, lower middle class. you're not poor or low wage. that's absolutel ridiculous and none of them would attempt to live off of that amount. host: let me go to north carolina. bob's waiting in wax hall, north carolina, republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for taking my call. i have a couple years ago i read an article by walter williams and he made four points about accumulating wealth and helping people get out of poverty. four items. i'd just like to speak about real quickly. very quickly. number one, when you're young, get some type of a job. any type of a job. it will teach you self-esteem. number two, stay in school.

get at least your high school degree. number three, and this can be a tough one with all the peer pressure that there is among young people, and that's to keep your nose clean. avoid committing crimes. and number four, avoid having children until you're married. because you got two people living together, being married and having kids, that is a good way to develop some responsibility. host: bring me to the question. caller: i'm listening. guest: i appreciate your comments. in fact, you know, most people who have babies out of wedlock are whraoeut and you say get a job. but if you don't have a job that's less than a living wage, if you have a low-wage job, a job that doesn't have benefits, a job that doesn't have paid

family leave, a job that doesn't have health care, then that's what's wrong about the system. we're not against work. we're talking about poor and low-wage people. who's to say that poor people don't keep their noses clean? poor and low-wage people are some of the most moral people in the world. they're working too hard to be doing anything else. remember what we're talking about is -- we're talking about even graduate students who make poverty wages. we're talking about secretaries who make poverty wages and sometimes pay more taxes than the c.e.o.'s. some of what you're listing are the mythologies. come go with me to appalachia. i'd love for you to go. come go to places where we see people living in poverty, who are struggling and working hard every day. and then be mindful that it was theodore roosevelt, a republican, who first said in 1912, when he challenged both parties, he said that we ought to have a moral agenda, that moral agenda ought to include health care, it ought to include

a minimum living wage, it ought to include taking care of the environment. this was a republican that said that. eisenhower, who is a republican, said we ought to put more investment in public education and we ought to be leery, he said, of the military industrial complex that would soak up all the money from the people that actually need it in the country. so i encourage you to read this book because what you might find is something that is not rooted in the mythologies but is rooted in the truth. we're talking about 140 million people, the majority of which are white, among black people, over 60%. and to suggest that those 140 million people are somehow immoral, didn't keep their nose clean, didn't get jobs, some of them are working two and three jobs, they still can't make it, and all are poor because they had babies out of wedlock is

just not the truth. it doesn't line up with the data. it lines up with mythology. host: let me take you to pennsylvania. this is tony, independent. good morning. caller: yes, good morning. can you guys hear me? host: yes, sir, what's your question or comment? caller: just wanted to make sure it was this tony. so, yeah, i really appreciate the perspective of this guest and this focus on poverty. i feel like the country, i would say the oligarchs, the billionaires that are in charge, they do a really good job of dividing us by gender, by race, by skin tone and they often neglect, diminish and hide this perspective. i would say this was the perspective of martin luther king and it has strong roots that we need to get back to. i would say the republican party

has in many ways captured the symbol of jesus, but don't represent jesus, you know, jesus talked about the least among us. i would say the democratic party has captured martin luther king but don't share his values. they're not anti-war, they don't talk about poverty. it's a very whitewashed, commercialized, corporate martin luther king that is a part of the democratic party. host: bishop barber, let meifice you a chance to weigh in. guest: even a renowned economist talks about the price of inequality. yes, it was dr. king, but it was many others. black and white. it was welfare right, women, actually that started the poor people's campaign. it was women who started and invited dr. king and others into it. women of all different races,

creeds and colors back in the 1960's. but the caller is right. we are united, over 1/3 of the country is united by this reality every day. they experience the death, they experience the lack, they experience the unnecessary abolishable lack and hurt. and it can be changed. that's the point. and what we're arguing also in the book is that what we have done in our political debate, we have 15 or so debates in the last presidential election and not one of those debates focused on what is impacting 1/3 of the country. we cannot have that. we had, as i said, eight democrats and all the republicans in the senate blocked a living wage of $15 an hour that came to the senate, having been passed in the house, that we have pushed for. we cannot have that go on and continue. we cannot just let people languish in poverty and low wages in the richest nation in the country. we need to change our political

conversation, we need to stop the mythology. we had a recent debate and there's been a lot of argument about, you know, trump lying and what some said was biden being slow in his responses. and they call it failure. what we saw as failure is that not 30 minutes of that debate focused on what 140 million people face in this country. and asked each person, you're running for president, what is going to be your goal, what is going to be your policy? what are you going to push for and fight for, if you get the majority in the house and in the senate and the presidency? what are you going to do? are you going to call the name of the poor? host: you have had a chance to ask that question of kamala harris? guest: we will ask it. kamala harris is on record in -- i think it was 2019, coming to our more poverty action congress, of actually saying that she saw this issue as critical and the other day in

delaware she mentioned right off, her dream of a world is a world where child poverty does not exist. one of the greatest moral failings, 51% of our children live in poverty and low wages, unnecessarily. we want to be pushing that to every candidate. both sides of the aisle, we're mobilizing, as i said, and touching 15 million poor and low-wage voters who are going to come to the electorate saying, if you want these votes, talk to us, talk about the issues that are impacting our lives. and they're across all the different races, colors and geographies. that's what white poverty is talking about. i'm a black man. and i know i'm a black man. but i also have in my d.n.a. indian, i have persons who are caucasian as well in my d.n.a. my father's side of the family comes from a free community, was free even during the days of slavery. and my father taught me, you have to own all of who you are and out of that experience i'm saying to america, you have to

own all of who you are. you cannot have this level of poverty and hurt, you cannot have over 50 million people working for less than a minimum living wake, and just ignore it in your political discussions and your political policies and you also can't be happy with just minimum increases here and there. just a little bit of change here and there. when in fact we could have fund mental change -- fundamental change. host: this is joseph in houston, texas. line democrats. go ahead. caller: good morning, bishop. my question is, for the sake of time, is what can we do about encouraging those two are discouraged to vote with this platform you are promoting, can you lift the top three actions to convince more involvement in the political process? thank you. guest: thank you so much for that question. one of the mythologies also that exists is that poor and low-wage people have been told they don't

matter politically. and they've been told that they don't vote. the fact of the matter, 87 million poor and low-wage voted in the last election. but the problem is they voted several percentage points lower than middle and upper class, upper high class persons. if they voted at the same rate as middle class and upper middle class persons in this country, we would see a very different outcome in our election. whether you tell people that they have that kind of power, that the stones that the builders reject ready not just victims, they don't have to be victims of the system, they don't have to be impacted by the system, they can change the system, they have the power to come together, the power to unite around agenda, that transforms how people understand who they are and what they can do. that's number one. number two, then you must actively engage in mobilizing that community. if politicians and others don't talk to them, we have to talk to

them. our leaders have to talk to them. peer to peer conversations have to happen to mobilize people. that's why we're engaging in this practical mobilization going on right now. and then thirdly, you can't leave after elections. you have to stay engaged between elections. you have to constantly push, constantly be in the presence, in the face, nonviolently, of course, but constantly be in the face because when we talk about these policies, we're talking about a handout. we're talking about america being what she said she would be on paper. to quote dr. king. in the preamble of our constitution we say you must establish justice. there is nothing just about people not having a minimum living wage and not raising the minimum wage for 15 years. there's nothing just about people languishing in poverty, particularly children, when could you use the child tax credit and actually lift children out of poverty and families out of poverty. and earned income tax credit. these are things reagan

interestingly enough agreed to. there's nothing just about health care, if you're a congress person, you get free health care the moment you get elected and go to congress. but then you fight people having that same opportunity for health care. there's nothing just about that. and lastly, it doesn't promote the general welfare of all people, which is what every person has to do when they get elected. they say, i swear to uphold this constitution, which means to promote the general welfare of all people. so we must let people know what their power is. we must help them mobilize in that power and build unity, fusion coalitions across geographic areas and across race and exercise that power, both during elections and after elections, and refuse to take no for an answer because really addressing poverty is a matter of life and death. 290,000-plus people die every year from poverty and low wages. 800 people a day.

when we got 500 people dieing a day from covid, we called it an epidemic. we have an epidemic of poverty and low wages in this country. the surgeon general really ought to put on every low wage job that it's hazardous to your health and we should fight to change this in this country. host: just a couple minutes left. another question from twitter via deb saying, do you think illegal -- guest: first of all, this issue of immigration is used as a wedge issue. immigration is not illegal. it is a process that we have, we are a country of immigrants. we're a country of immigrants. what hurts this country is to have a process that actually burdens those who would desire to come in this country, the vitriol that we see. in fact, remember now, we've had -- the job of immigrants coming

to this country is interesting. i come from the south. there was a time when we didn't have a problem with immigrants coming. we wanted to crack down on the people that came, of course after they did the work. what we should have is a just immigration policy. we should not just blame immigrants for the problem and create wedge issues. and irregardless of the immigration issue, that still does not change the minimum wage. that still does not address the issue of health care. that still does not address fully funding public education. let's stop trying to find a way to blame somebody for poverty and low wages and really address the issues that impact the poverty, impact the poor and low wage. that still doesn't address having strong safety nets for people, especially for people who are disabled and hurting and fall into poverty. we have got to come to a place in this country where we say things like, i remember doing

one of the times we were going through economic trouble and we said companies were too big to fail. well, i'm a preacher. in my bible it says every person is made in the image of god. which means people are too human and too created by god to fail. and we should address the policies that create and cause poverty and not try to find a way around them or a way to change the subject matter. host: again the book, "white poverty: how exposing myths about race and class can reconstruct american democracy," the co-author is bishop william barber, the president of re-- co-chair of the poor people's campaign, founding director of the center for public policy and public theology at yale and we do always appreciate your time, sir. guest: thanki want to highlightl

before we get started, there's a previous book dr. carle wrote called the land was ours, and i you should check that out, too. but