ai powered such a pleasure to be

here. congratulations on your book and i'm so excited that it is out in

the world and to be able to have this conversation with you. thank you so much. i always say this. i've learned so much from from your reporting. it's really helped guide my own journey. and so i'm just grateful that you're doing this with me. thank you. and i'm learned a lot from this book. and i would love to start just with something really simple, which is tell us why you decided to write this book. yes. the why for me, actually starts in 2016. and so during the 2016 presidential campaign, actually before getting into the world of journalism, i was the deputy director of hispanic press for the hillary clinton campaign. and so, so much and i think about this constant, like so much of the theory of change or of like the winning formula back then was around this idea that in the face of someone like donald trump know that latinos would show up and rise in these like unprecedented numbers. right. like the symbol that was allegedly supposed to reflect the like antithesis of latinos

and immigrants like that was a winning formula. and so i don't have to tell you now, come november 2016, the reality was that less than 50% of latinos showed up to the polls. and then fast forward four years. here comes 2020. there's another presidential election and donald trump after four years of trumpism, after four years of the latino community, seeing him, he does between 8 to 10 points better with latinos and he did in 2016 getting around between 36 and 38% of the latino vote. and so from that moment on, and i know that you and your own reporting, you've you've hinted at this as well from moment on. i started noticing these like subtle things, that racial times for me, you know, this idea of latinos warming up to mass deportations or latino evangelicals warming up to christian nationalism, sort of very subtle references of like anti-immigrant sentiments, anti-blackness. and so root of this story is to try and understand, like, what

is at the heart of this alleged right war shift among a very small but growing group of latinos that i think in this moment are trying to send us a very different message. and so it really starts in 2016 and then it's sort of solidifies in 2020. and until now. yeah, i'd love to stay on 2020 for a second. and how surprised were you personally in 2020 when when i look at in in the historical context, it wasn't that dramatic in terms of historical notorious right. that was i mean, surely you write about this, the republicans have always had some support among latinos. why do you think that was such a seismic shift in perception? i mean, i think the what's interesting, right, is that right after the november 2020 election, the story was not this. the story was that usual like democrats had won the latino vote and that that latino support was overwhelming. and but that's what i found

alarming, you know, that there weren't enough democrats and progressives alarmed at the idea that someone like donald trump who had gone through family separations and zero tolerance policy and the public charge rule on someone like donald trump that had led this country to see images of ice raids, a massive scale work ice raids. and someone, him who had said very discriminated tory and racist remarks around immigrants and latinos that someone like him would get to that 38% threshold. and that's what i found, no less so than small increase in percentage points by donald trump, and more so the idea that democrats seemed so complacent at that idea that someone like him would do well among the latino bloc, that i think in many ways, like i was saying about this, this this latino voting bloc was supposed to be the heart of the democratic

party success. the idea and i remember like being a young staffer and like the obama campaign and the hillary clinton campaign, like i remember so much of the theory was that come 2045, when this country is majority minority, it would be latinos that would be at the heart of that multiracial, multiethnic coalition that would lead this country and lead the democratic party to that future. so that's what i found alarming, that here we are now in 2020, facing something that perhaps on the surface doesn't seem to your point, like so dramatic, but something that at least starts to hint to this idea that that coalition is more fractured than what we ever believed in. and so that that honesty is what really, really was alarming to me. there's so many things i want to unpack and understand more from your perspective there. yeah. let me start with let me start with something sort of maybe simple or at least partizan. do you think the alarm bells have started to go off in the democratic party and if so, when? and if not, why not?

i do i? do i do that democrats even even though and you you know, colleagues of mine and folks in the industry were sort of trying to not just neglect, but like in underestimate sort of the gains that donald trump was making. i do think internally from conversations, folks, we're trying to get a sense of of this, which is the idea that donald trump did better in a place like miami dade county know where there's a massive cuban-american population that has historically sided with republicans like that story. they understood that that was always expected. but then i think what really was alarming for them is a place like which i know you've spent so much time there. a place like the rio grande valley now in south texas. and then to understand that just inches away from the border, you know, inches away from this place where, the country had spent so much time sort of

reporting on and seeing the seeing the really painful images of families separation that in a place like that, donald trump did. so, i mean, it's so much better in 2020 than in 2016. and so i think that then leads you to to the midterm elections. know and to sort of the rise of people like myself. flores in in south texas and money guy la cruz and the rise of these, you know, conservative latinas and latinos that are starting to change the republican party. and so i do i do know that they were alarmed and the best way to understand it was the way that democrats started investing so much more money during the 2022 midterm elections. now, understand that something could happen. and so that's why you see them sort of stopping this so-called like red wave that was supposed to happen in 2022. that's why you see them right now finally investing in latino voters not a month before the election, but at least two years before the election. right. the amount of investments that

the democrats have put in spanish language radio, spanish, in which tv ads in their own campaigns. i see that as a reflection of the way that they were so alarmed in 2020 and understanding that something had to change. mm hmm. i want to zoom out now a little bit and ask you about the title. what do you think the people that you were writing about are defecting from are there? but, you know, principles in your mind. tell me about choosing the title and and your thinking behind it. so i thought about this a lot and so to fact, the idea of defecting and that in essence means sort of to walk away from a presumed loyalty. the abandonment of loyalty to walk away from from alleged solidarity to a group of people. and i think of this idea that when the world and pollsters and

democratic strategies strategists look at latino voters, the framing around us is around this idea of the linked fate phenomenon. and that is this idea that a group of multiracial, multiethnic communities that have similar backgrounds and similar stories will sort of act and vote in similar ways. now, in many ways, that has been used a framing has been used, of course, to explain the black vote, not this understanding of that, obviously that painful, common history has led black voters to vote in a very cohesive way, unified way. and so it's so here, here. then we go to the idea of latinos defecting and yes, of course, we can argue and we've seen time and time again, latinos do have this collective solidarity. but that as opposed to black folks and black voters, there's a very more natural tendency to defect between us, not to sort of turn turn our backs around us. and that's because i believe that we can buy into sort of

american individualism in the way that it intersects with whiteness in, capitalism and christian believes we can make that dance in and out of whiteness in a way easier way than other communities in this country. and so when you start to zoom into our history, the real story is, of course, we've we've voted in unified ways, you know, there's so many things we have in common. but then if you start to really, really look into some of the things and they use this example in the book, i go back to like the civil war, not a it's not a new story, but i think it sort of reflects the essence of what i was trying to get at with this title of defecting during the war. of course, the majority of of, you know, mexican-americans, indigenous were with the union. but then suddenly, you understand that there was over 2500 mexicans, mostly tejanos, that were with the confederacy. and so among them, the highest ranking confederate general they had in general was called santos benavides. and he was known around town for

being a racist. and they them, quote unquote, this, you know, someone that would go and catch enslaved folks. and so that that act of sort of deviating a to where the majority is. i've been i've been guilty of that myself know of doing that dancing. i'm part of this marginalized community. but i've been taught and sort of conditioned in my history has also taught and conditioned me to try and go where the majority is. and so that's kind of where i where i went with the idea of defect ignore that it is kind of in our system. and to walk away from that presumed loyalty and solidarity. and that, i think is what needs to be inspected. yeah, it's such interesting point. it makes me think one of my favorite lines, i think it comes pretty early in the book where you say you quote somebody, he says himself, there's nothing racist about. a guy called gabriel garcia. yeah and it just such it's such simple, plain spoken quote. and i love hear, you know, why

isn't that true? you you spend so much time unpacking how that isn't and yeah. yeah you break out that definitely you bring a lot in garcia and so so so people understand so well garcia is a cuban-american. he lives south florida. and gabriel garcia and participated in the january six insurrection. now a there's videos of him storming the capitol, videos of him inside the capitol, violent videos of him making violent and in some moments, even seeing him underneath the dome calling for nancy pelosi, no, things like this is our house. and so i met gabrielle garcia in about a year after the january six insurrection. and one of the things that he kept justifying to me and to to other outlets was this idea that because his name was gabriel, no. because he spoke spanish, because came from cuban-american roots and from hispanic roots,

that there that would mean that there's no way that someone like him could be a white and warring extremists and. i think that kind of mindset is is very common around us know that because we can sort claim our brownness when we want to. and also claim our sort of direct line aim to to to spain and to the spanish colonizers, because we get to sort of do we get to hide under the guise of being hispanic? we get to hide sort of the racism and the internalized under this guise of what hispanic know, we can claim being in the minority. we want to. and i think that's and i always want to be super clear like that is extreme example that that that the majority of us have you see aren't gabriel garcia ame but that tendency to sort of dance between those two concepts and hide a under latino hispanic latin x label in that sort of gives us permission and to to

hide and to not really question what is in someone like gabriela garcia's case of someone that is buying into white supremacy is someone that felt in his words, such a big rush when he was in the cabinet. i know someone who wanted so badly to be part of the white mob and. yeah, and why is that. yeah, i mean, it's such an interesting thing. it's like using as a shield right inside your identity as a shield. i wonder how much you think about this as assimilation and there's so many conversations, oh, latinos are are just like the irish of yesterday or just the italians of yesterday. and i wonder how you think about that, that after spending so much time with these folks, how they think about that. no, that's so i think i don't think there's a i think to convey anything about this subject and you know this better than anyone that. there's there's there's never

like a clear answer to anything, you know? and i think we're all sort of trying to figure it out right now. we're laughing because we know one of the most fun parts of it. the most fun parts, but it truly is such a beautiful miss and complex community. and i think what we're all facing right now is a community that is so fundamentally different from what it was like 20, 30 years ago. and i'm even thinking about like our parents and and we're facing now a latino community that has completely americanized no a i mean, mike madrid does is has spent so much time studying that phenomenon. like, what does it mean to have americanize in the united states, to have assimilated like part of the latino story in this country is that in that quest for the american dream and that part of that journey to that goal entails assimilating no. and so now we're we're staring at this voting bloc that is the majority is us born. the majority of us are under age

of 50. the majority of us don't spanish or almost even spanglish. we mostly speaking speak in english. we consume our news and our content in english. and within this latino blog, you understand that it is third generation latinos that are the fastest growing segment within the latino community. and so i think about what you just said when you say, so what is what is assimilation mean? and i think trumpism understood that really well, where they're betting on this idea, that the latino community now is so americanized that they, too, can buy into the nativism, that they too can buy into the sort of anti-immigrant sentiment that they, too, can feel, that there's some power in other izing, others in other izing immigrants and even otherwise, they're like dark skinned latinos and that's what i think about now when i think of the way the sort of trump campaign has understood it. how do you how do you explain that like assimilation that's happening among latinos? it's in that. and that's why i think it's so

interesting now. like the trump campaign now, when they're talking about latino voters. they don't just say it's latinos for trump. they specifically insert the word american it is latino americans for trump. no, no. long. it's very rare not to hear people in the trump campaign just say it's those latinos, it's latino americans. and that, i think, carries a lot of weight. no, absolutely. i mean, i think the latino america can shift. it's such a subtle language, but it's fascinating. it's happening. it's sort of like the republican answer in this cycle to democrats really embracing the term latin that exactly last cycle, the word that everyone hates having to write, the word that everybody now has walked away with, not everybody, but that the democratic party as an institution has essentially abandoned. exactly. it's and it's so interesting, danny, because i think one one of the things that that i think the campaign and i, i talk a lot about this in the book, but all of this also comes down to two

myths and misinformation a and the ability sort of change the meaning of words. now to the point that if, you know, the word latin x right now. is a a a symbolism of being a radical left. you know, the word democrat means a socialist and. the word obamacare means being a and and so woke. yeah. and even even even like let's talk about like immigration the word migrant and immigrant means being a criminal and so the ability to change the significance of words and that into the psyche of latinos. i think initially going back to the beginning of this conversation initiative, initially the idea that we can also sort of buy into that narrative seemed absurd, know how how could it be that some latinos, the first second generation latinos would, you know, would think that there's an invasion at the southern border, that is fundamentally threatening their, you know,

their being. how how could they sort of fall in the lines of trumpism? and here we are. and the answer is, it can't. right, right i that makes me think of something else. i constantly wonder and wonder how you think about how much of this is about the maga movement, how much of this would be happening without trump? do you think so? i think so that was that was a big part of of kind of approaching this book. no, i think my gut was to to think of sort of this the small rightward shift in approach it from a purely political lens now and trying to understand how much of that was a result of of maga and trumpism. yeah. and of course, like, you know, so much of this story comes down to that and like the appeal of trump's words and the way republicans have been targeting and fear mongering and why why that works fine. that's one part of the story. but then i thought that that the

real the real difficult homework that we have as journalists and as members of this committee and honestly, all americans is to understand. and that this is so much more than just about politics and that to understand voters now in the latino community, now means to sort of we have to take us back across the border. and we have to understand historical, the cultural and the psychological forces that are sort of playing in this moment in this country and. what i mean by that is we have to understand sort of the racial baggage that we carry from latin america. no, we have to understand. the consequences of what the colonial times meant in latin america. we have to understand political traumas. how does all of that manifest in american politics? and so it goes beyond it goes way beyond trumpism and maga. and it has so much more to do with us now with sort of all of this baggage in that we carry as latinos a regardless of how far

removed we are, you know, from the first time that our parents came here and migrated to this country that that sort of trauma is recycled. one of the best things about this book and journey for me was not just talking two political scientists, but to psychologist and historian to sort of grounded me and made me see things like right now as you asked me that question, i'm thinking about a psychologist that that reminded me. she said, look, over 70% of migrants and seekers that are coming to this country carry trauma. no. and she said and that that trauma that generational trauma is recycled now. and that, i think, is kind of what's playing out now. know and you can help explain that way in. many of the things that we're seeing whether, it's, you know, answering the question of why an afro-latino in the bronx likes trump or whether that's understanding why you know so of the reporting that you've done around like latino evangelicals and what they find so appealing about trumpism it all comes down i think to to the history right

i mean you outlined that history so clearly and beautifully as tribalism tradition and trauma. yeah and i wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you came up with that framework and and how everything fit in to one of those buckets to speak. yeah. so, so yeah, so, so folks understand, right. so the book itself is, is divided in three sections and as you said, journey, it's tribal traditionalism and trauma and the way came up with them was honestly just of like taking a step back and understand like who have i interviewed in the last four or five years? and how i how can i explain their behavior? and so i thought about know some of the folks that i interviewed at the border in el paso or in arizona that were sort of buying into anti-immigrant sentiment. i thought about the anti-blackness that i had seen in the bronx. and so then i put under the bucket of tribalism the idea of

tribalism being. sort of the internalized racism and the racial baggage that many latinos in this country and i thought about the sort of latino evangelical movement and way beyond that, i thought about the way that so many of the latinos i had met found something so appealing in the anti-transgender culture worries this fascination with this one subject and so much hate that transgender folks elicited a this sort of curiosity around christian nationalism that it put under the bucket of traditionalism being the way in we carry sort of these like colonized values and colonized mindsets in the united states. and then finally, i thought about this idea of of the appeal that some latinos have with strongmen, you know, even with someone like nayib bukele from el salvador or even this obvious hatred visceral hatred, of course, towards communism not towards the very painful journey

that so many have felt towards communism in that i put under trauma. so that's sort of how i came up with aim with those three buckets. yeah. to help give me a framework and to understand like i said something that i went beyond politics, not right. right. can we talk a little bit more? you've alluded to it a couple times. can we talk a little bit more race, racism, anti-blackness and nativism? i mean, i, i find it fascinating, difficult to explain being somebody who is not from the latino community, sort of how complicated that is. yeah. and you write about it quite explicit and clearly i'm talk a little bit about how you racism skin. yeah, immigration status, generational status playing out here. yeah. let's think about again, i think one of the best ways to think about it is this way.

right. so when, when donald trump and goes to the bronx and so many people were laughing at the idea that trump would even dare going to the bronx. right. that he would dare even stepping into this neighborhood that is so diverse, not only just so diverse and full of latinos, but specifically he's so full of a of a rich history of black latinos and afro-latinos. and there he goes and he has this campaign event in the bronx. and again, if you zoom in to the pictures, you see that there's a lot of afro-latinos, dominican latinos waving the trump flags. and again and people were laughing. but then let's remember that in 2020, of course, donald does not win the bronx, but he does make some inroads in a like the bronx. and so this takes me back to a conversation that i have in the book, which is in the in the bronx. and i step into a hair salon. the hair salon owner is an afro latino. we start having a conversation and in that the idea race comes up and mind you, i should have

said this before this afro-latina hair salon owner is a huge trump supporter loves trump. we'll vote for trump voted for trump before we'll vote for him. as you told me many, many, many times more and in the conversation and i ask her, well, how do you identify? and she said, well, i'm hispanic. and then we're keep talking. and then i and what is your race? and she said, my race is hispanic. and then around her, her colleagues were yelling at her and they were like, you're black. and she's like, no, i'm hispanic. being hispanic has nothing to do with being black. and so that sort of takes me to to the heart of what this is not in her sort of in stubbornness to talk about blackness now in her to identify as blackness that takes us to the heart of of what so many of us carrying, which is the way that colonial times sort of not only ingrained, institutionalized a caste system in latin america,

obviously were enslaved folks were all the way at the end of the ladder, followed by indigenous folks, followed by folks. but in that caste, says caste system, that also led to the racial mixing and that racial mixing, i think for centuries gave the illusion the very false illusion that latin america a racist place. no. and within that idea of this racist latin america, every single one of us was also given the permission, regardless of our skin color, regardless of how we identified everyone was giving the permission to make a direct line to the spanish colonizers, into our whiteness. and so this hair salon owner in, the bronx, like the way that she identified in the way that many in family were identifying, was actually through the lens of whiteness, through the lens of the spanish colonizers, because so much of her identity as a black dominican was built around sort of the spanish colonizers, but also built around this idea

of defining blackness vis a vis haiti, vis a vis african-americans in this country, that for years and years and decades have been so criminalized. and so all this to say that that idea of race so different in latin america, that it is in the united states, where we're talking about race and now we're here in this country, you're either black or white. so what that means, going back to what you and i were just talking about, jenny, what that means is that for many latinos under guise of hispanic being latino and under the idea that there's no race in latin america, they will opt for whiteness if they given a choice. and that i think, is sort of like part of the dynamic. so many that so many people are wrestling with now. mm mm. do you can we talk a little bit about the nativism piece. i mean, you said something i thought was so interesting a few minutes ago about that. now many voters are so americanized they can buy in to

nativism. and i'm thinking in particular about the rio grande valley, as you mentioned, and as you write about are two women who are first or second generation, i believe, correct me if i'm wrong, who run for. yeah. very explicitly. on a message of nativism. that's right. and i'm just curious how how do you think that is? how did you see that play out? yes, i so i think there's there's like a couple of forces happening at the same time. and i would say this, right, a, to be latino, even to be an immigrant does not make you immune from being xenophobic or from holding anti-immigrant sentiments. right. like xenophobia and the anti-immigrant sentiment in this country is so powerful, particularly when it's layered with myths and disinformation and fear mongering. and i say this all the time, no one is immune to that. no. being latino does not make you immune to that. but i think there's a couple things happening. and the first is that as we just talked right now, the latino

committee that we're staring at is a community that feels very americanized as i said, it's its third generation. latinos are the fastest growing segment within the community. and so what is happening among many things is that here you have a group of latinos that feel more detached and more distanced from their immigrant backgrounds, from their immigrant stories. yet at the same time, among the small, small group of them, there is this unconscious fear of being sort of by white america. these like perpetual foreigners. now. and the reason why i think there's fear makes a lot of logical sense, if you think about it, right. there's multiple studies even one from cambridge university that show that, for instance, as rate of mexican immigration increase is in certain counties, white people's attitudes, their black neighbors becomes more positive and their attitudes, their latino neighbors becomes more negative. so all this to say that sometimes times that

anti-immigrant sentiment can be so powerful, no one so visceral, that at times it can even sort of subdue, you know, this anti-blackness, that it obviously is very persistent in this country. and so what that means is that there is a group of latinos that not only sort of believe some of the anti-immigrant rhetoric, but on top of that journey, they have to sort of prove their belonging in this country. they have to prove that they, too, are american, that they, too, should be considered american, even though, as you and i know they're as american as anyone else is. i think that's of the formula. no, of into the anti-immigrant sentiment. but then also having to prove a sense of belonging in a white america that has a tendency to sort of discriminate against latinos, then that at times can turn into people like monica la cruz, a congresswoman in texas, and who not only buys into trump ism, but who has also had sort of campaign emails that hint at the great replacement theory and she's gone. now you have a they might

offload was not in congress anymore but so much of her campaign in the rio grande valley was around building the wall and sometimes formula can also lead you to sort of people like anthony, our widow that i interviewed this book that are sort of so obsessed with this anti-immigrant rhetoric. they kind of start acting like these de facto border vigilantes. so it's it's so complicated. know a bit it doesn't surprise me when you start to understand it through that sort of like of of the sense of belonging you're just using the term subconscious that it's for many of these folks this idea of trying to prove how american they are by adopting these these beliefs and these and these methods campaigning. did you ask them about did you ask them directly? you know how much of this is about wanting to prove americanness and how did they talk about that? you know, i didn't i didn't have

to ask them. and you that's the beauty of these stories that when when giving the time and the privilege to just there. no, you just let people talk once once they feel comfortable and once they feel they don't have to talk to you. and, like you know, soundbites in right. when you have a couple of people just talking, they feel comfortable. and so so i'm thinking of a conversation that i had in el paso and i had this, um, this sort of like roundtable discussion in el paso, in texas, steps away from juarez and. it was among a group of mostly republican latinos and many former democrats that had just sort of decided that they were going to go vote for trump and, you know, we were talking about immigration and. one of the things that kept coming organically was this idea of like, well, those immigrants, they have to assimilate to america, know this is america and so it goes like that kept coming like that. nope. in this country, you know, you have to be proud to to sort of

to have the the blue, red and white flag, like on their own it organic sort of the conversation led to to talk about like the pride they had in being american and almost to the point that it it almost became too much. and because my question was like, where are you trying to prove this? no like i know you're american. of course you're american. right? but it was almost language of like there's this can constant sort of idea, like they have to prove that they're american. and i think glimpses of that happen like throughout the country, you know, in different ways from just constantly like waving the flag to the vocabulary to this idea of, you know, well, migrants. they they're they're really, really a, you know, like breaking with american culture. and so i honestly didn't didn't have to ask that question, jenny, and just kind of write it. it came up for them. but that was always my question. like, i know you're american. like, who is it that you think that you have to prove, to to be

an american? right, right. and why do you think that being american has to play out in this particular way? right. like, what is it that you think what is it that they think it is that that's what it means. be an american that what it means to be american is to be nativist is to say assimilate. this is our i'm thinking a lot of you you brought up monica de la cruz who i find really fascinating and i'm thinking about native flores who won in a special election for congress and then later lost. you spend time with her with her pastor who i've also spent time with, who talks about making america again. right. and i'm curious how you see religion playing a role and the evangelical church and maybe to some extent the catholic church. yeah. a role in cultivating these kind of identities, an ideas. yeah. i mean, i think that's i think that's really interesting

because i think i mean, you've you've done so much more reporting on this than i have. but the the little sort of window that i that i have into that and i it goes like this. and i think that there are so many latinos that in these evangelical churches found found a sense of belonging and refuge in a safe space. and then i think what's interesting if you if you if you take a step back so the audience understands like latino evangelicals in this moment are the fastest growing group of evangelicals in the united states. we're talking about latino. i always think it's so interesting, right? because they're so fundamentally different. white evangelicals, we're talking about first and second generation immigrants. we're talking about spanish. we're talking in many cases of folks that have just come from latin america holding evangelical these. but we're also talking about many latino catholics that are converting to in jellicle ism. we're talking about the children of a lot of these families that after years are now also

stepping into this evangelical church. and so i think the beginning of that story for for many years was, you know, you felt safe. no, there was no politics. and this was your community and this was your i've heard this from so many families now in one family in miami said, well, the first thing i did when i migrate to this country is i found my church. not that i wanted to find my community and then i think in the last what like maybe like 5 to 10 years this safe spaces have increasingly politicized. and i keep thinking about this idea that in 2020, where does donald trump launch evangelicals for trump campaign? no, it's not in pennsylvania it's not in virginia. it's not in ohio. he specifically goes to south florida among a group of latinos. and that's where he launches, not even latino evangelicals. for trump, the evangelicals for trumpism campaign in 2020 starts in miami-dade county.

so all this to say that, i think a lot of republicans is and trumpism as as well as the christian right has understood that in order to survive. no. as the rate of white evangelicals and white is declining in this country, they have to tap into latino. they have to do that in order to survive. and so here we go. and you start seeing these these spaces that were once safe, being politicized, folks like pastor. and we scouted out who you meant journey and being politicized by it by pastors and you know in different places in nevada and in arizona and in pennsylvania is i think that i think is is what's happening is sort of this this these two forces of of you know republicans understanding they have to campaign in these places and that they can exploit of the religious foundation that a lot of latinos carry in that that they can turn that sort of devotion. they can politicize that devotion. and many times not always but in

many times, inject a level mis and disinformation, particularly it comes to the lgbtq narrative. and through that politicize more latinos to sort of opt for trumpism. and i think that's kind of what's happening right now, it's so fast and and one of the things i find most fascinating about these communities is that it is a place where people really hold on to their hispanic, to their latino identity. i mean, you said a lot of these services are happening in spanish. these are not people. that's right. when we tend to think about assimilation when we think about sort of quote unquote fitting in. exactly. these are not people who are shedding their hispanic identity, their hobbies and identity. they're venezuelan. right. exactly. and yet they are simultaneously embracing trumpism. and it makes me wonder one of the things that i kept thinking about as i was reading is do you when you were thinking about again, going back to the to the title, using the term defectors, do you think that all latino

republicans defecting, like how much of this is extremism? how much of this is just sort of simple partizanship like where do we get so much on the. i think it's so i think that's an interesting question. i think it's so much more simple than we think. i think also the idea behind defecting is that it it kind of brings up this question right now as you're this like i one point and why and who made the decision and presumed that latinos were these inherent natural democratic voters know and i here we are right now and when i when think of reagan's for instance, latino evangelicals defecting to trumpism in the republican perhaps perhaps we have to rethink this. you know, perhaps it's this idea that many evangelicals, they carry centuries in the foundation of not just sort of the doctrine of discovery, but also decades of american

evangelical missionaries in latin america and centuries of sort colonial times in latin america, where gender norms were, where sexual norms were ingrained in were stereotypes and biases were ingrained, including myself, like, what is that? what does it mean to carry all of that in there into the united states, into american politics? and if give latinos again, i want to be very clear. we're talking about a small group here. but if you give a permission to choose their homes, to choose their political homes, it may be the case that that freedom to choose particular early when you're being sort of targeted and, you know, a campaign by republicans, it may be the case that the natural idea, an option for some of them is to go to trumpism now and so is it like i

think that's an interesting question that you posed and like who who are they? who are they defecting now? is it republicans? is it democrats? it's i think that's kind of the idea of the book. like let's all kind of like rethink, aim, who, who's loyal, whom, knowing who decided right at any point that even a bloc like latino evangelicals, i have to say in the past did vote for clinton and at one point did vote for obama and here they are finding something very in trumpism. and the last thing i'll say about that, i asked that same question to them. jenny, many latino evangelicals, i said, like, what about your christian morals and believes in? what do they find appealing in like donald trump? no, a convicted felon, someone that's been a, you know, accused of things, someone with a criminal record. what do you see in trump? and the answer was that they saw and trumpism as a vehicle aim to sort of ensure the survival of

their christian beliefs. and they saw the long term game. it was less about the politics for them and less about what he had said or not. and less about his sort of criminal record and more about the idea of the longevity. and how do you ensure the longevity of christianity? you know, and yeah it makes me think about something else that you about in and you point out that many of the people who you talking to are these bombast stick leaders who have cultivate this larger than life personality online, mostly online. and then when you meet them in person, they end up being slightly more timid. yeah. or maybe more thoughtful or maybe more nuanced. absolutely. yeah. i don't know. remember, you know, putting words in your mouth. why did you think that was? how did you see that play out? just. yeah, let me hear a little more about that. definitely. look i think, um, i think you so many, so many that people that i, that i interviewed in the

book and were folks that i was like following online or folks that i had read about know whether they had stormed the capitol or whether they were the leaders of gays against rumors or whether there were these pastors with followings or whether it was like moms liberty. but it was it was people that am in many ways, i have to say, like felt intimidating to me. no, im not just intimidating by their online personas but by their words i mean i think also like as a queer latina sort of like stepping those spaces and yes are reporters and we're there to ask questions and were there to like understand a but there is a level of vulnerability. not always. and and you feel sort of like the weight and the tension, but more, more often than not, it was the case that they seemed so much smaller in person and by smaller, i mean softer and more vulnerable and i'll, i'll see the word more human and and i

think that's part the hard exercise of of our jobs any kind of sort of this this book is that i think there there is a there is a tendon. and i understand that there's a tendency to and to go to this question. right. which why would you give sort of far right folks and extremists and sort of like, you know, these these you know, some of these people like why would you give them a platform? and to me, the exercise is, i think it's really important to understand root cause of that defection or the root cause of their right worship and that requires me to humanize them. and in that process, i understood that there was so much pain, like so much real pain in almost across the board in all of these people's stories, you know, when i think about one of the leaders of gays against groomers him and i saw eye to eye in the way that he came out and how painful that was. know, when i think about the latinas and moms for liberty, i

understood sort of the deep paranoia that one of the leaders of human is felt around the idea of communism. and that paranoia came from from her from from what her father had her. and she was sort of like breaking break down in tears when she thought about her father. and i, you know, i understood when i talked to some latino evangelicals the idea that, like, feel safe and secure those four walls and it doesn't is kind of like what people are telling you, that idea of safety. i understand. and i can keep going. even someone like enrique, dario know the former leader of the proud boys a an extremely dangerous person. there were there were small glimpses where i could see how, you know how hard he was trying to fit the mold of the proud boys, you know. and yet it was kind of weird to see him, like, so fascinated the idea of the proud boys and yet feeling so comfortable now as a cuban as a latino, as a spanish speaker in miami know. and it was kind of like, how do

you how do you make sense of it all? and and sorry, that was a long question. but all this to say like there was there was like a pain that i think is recognized in an element of humanness that of that that that drove me to them. it makes me think of i mean, one of the parts that i love about our job is these human to human interaction ins and realizing how complicated and vulnerable we all are. yeah. and i and i think about how these, how difficult these conversations are. i mean, you very and explicitly acknowledge in the writing that that you find these views repellant and and and in many cases personally dangerous to you as a queer. yeah. do you see that in the process of speaking to people how do you how do you talk with people on a person, a personal level? how much of yourself are you revealing to them and how much pushback are you giving to that, though, that some i will say,

i'll be honest, i, i rarely, i rarely feel like i can bring my full self. it is rarely the time where i can say openly and with pride in front of and i wish, i wish it was in the case. but where i can say like i have a partner now and i, i'm a i'm a, i'm a proud queer woman. i, i feel at times that i can't say that. and, and i'll tell you i'll tell you why. and it's not necessarily just kind of the the folks that i interviewed here. i'll give you an example. just a couple of days ago, i was in arizona and i was talking to a trump supporter, and we were sort of exchanging heated back and change. we were involved in a heated back and forth exchange. and suddenly i look to my left and there was a man, an armed man. he just kept staring at me and he just kept staring me. and i sort of felt the weight of his stare and i was just trying to do my interview.

and he interrupted the interview and he said and he looked at he said, you're just a radical lefty. and i like i said, i look back and i said, but sir, and why would you say that? and he was like well, there's something just about the way you look. you just look a certain way. and that those words are hard to describe and go back to something that i that i try and write about in this book, which is the sort of sense of disgust that that is being sort of spread in this country. and that sense of disgust is a science and disgust is stronger than anger and it's stronger than fear. and it is a driving force that leads to dehumanizing is i think there is a ability among some of my peers and my colleagues and among some latinos to dehumanize people and i have and i of course, i have i have into situations where i am standing in front of people that fundamentally, like, respect me as a woman, don't respect the

power dynamics that we bring in as female reporters, don't want the challenges to, want you to question them. do not believe in the way that i love and the way that i look and that is yes, that's like that's that is that that's that's part of it. yeah. yeah, it's interesting because part of what you're to do is humanize. is that right? in a way, a lot of what you're trying to do seems like to me. but. but please feel free to push back is is show empathy for where these folks are coming from or show some maybe empathy might not be the right word so some understanding or some nuance and some perspective of these folks are coming from. yeah, yeah, we were saying now is you're not you know, you're not you don't feel like it's possible to get that maybe and i'm okay with the uncertainty you know i'm okay with the uncertainty. i think it's i think we're at a time where we're we're all sort of working in these like, media silos ecosystems. we're at a time where like the violence and the rhetoric so

tense. and i still believe in the important case of of of going beyond just these like political explanations and the like maga explanations and like purdue, when it comes to latinos, i'm like, that's like my fixation when it comes to us. like i, i am still very driven by the curiosity of what would make someone stormed the us capitol because i believe that it goes beyond donald trump knowing i beat, i believe that it goes back to i think kind of like the essence of our conversation, which is like where do people find a sense of belonging? and that question is really, really hard. and i think that question deserves to be studied in research and that entails. and that that the means that we have to have these difficult conversations and the truth is the difficult conversations shouldn't just be had this honestly a book about sort of these latino far right folks this a book that i hope that inspire progressives and democrats and independents and

americans understand that latinos are very common. plex human beings know that we, too, can be progressives and democrats or independents and republicans and at the same time hold a lot of complex, internalized racism now and hold a very complicated relationship with latin america and hold a lot of political traumas. and i think honestly. right. that wait, that exercise should be for democrats understand. absolutely i mean, i think what you just said is where do we find belonging? and i think about contradictions that that all people have including and maybe especially latinos. that's right. in this country, many contradictions. and, you know, this time is actually flown by. i don't know. is that crazy question for you? i mean, i want to think about forward, right. regardless of what happens in a couple of months, what do you see as the way forward? will having a majority minority

country change our politics or will it? i. i, i still i think look, i the most important thing is, is if people are open, is to understand that, you know, the most simple which is, which is when we say that latinos are not a monolith. and what we by that is that we are like i said before, we're very we're very complex and that that in that will force us to have come placated in difficult and very uncomfortable conversations about about what that means. but i still i'm driven by the belief and because i've met people throughout this journey of writing defectors, i've met people that have gone to far right know that have gone towards extremism that were once a christian nationalist groups and were once a really driven by the belief that white was the north star and. i've also seen them come back

not to towards the progressive wing, towards democrats, but i've seen them sort of come back and be grounded and ask themselves that question again, like, where do i belong why did i feel so uncomfortable around that around that idea of white power and i do believe that particularly now in an environment is full of anti-immigrant sentiment. and i believe if if we do a better job sort of taking pride around what it means to have immigrant roots, and to your point, journey of redefining like what doesn't mean to be american. no. and who gets to define that? no, it's not around what trump ism says, but it's around what we know. the second largest minority voting bloc like. we get to define that and i think we're of in the process of understanding what that means, understanding that you can be a black latina immigrant and be as american as anyone else know, that you can be even an undocumented immigrant that has been here for 12 or 20 years, that has been paying taxes and be as american as anyone is.

so i think we have to normalize that. and so i think that gives me hope, you know, this idea that i think if we're able to cut through the politics, the stereotypes and the bipartisanship, a i believe that latinos can can get us there. and we hope so. and thank you so much. thank you. is a really an honor and privilege to be able to have this conversation with you. and i hope many, many people read your book. help us get somewhere forward. thank you. and thank you for for taking the time to do this. i said it as i was stepping into this studio. you have been a guiding rug for me, for i think so many other younger latino reporters and so on, to see so much of this work is thank you to to people like you. so thank you. and

i'm here to raise colin. i'm the executive director of the dc public library. i'm thrilled to welcome you all here to the historic martin luther king junior memorial library for this truly special event. first, let me recognize a few individuals whose work has contributed to d.c. public library recently