come the courage and the strength to really push forward and you really educate the the next generation who come through this community. and so i really appreciate you sharing your words. thank you. you reminded of the interviews that i did down there. when i want to thank you, i want to thank you, mr. cardwell, for honoring the legacy of san felipe. i only knew that through stories my dad actually and from my mom and reading the book evoked many of those times that we were in the driving or that he, as we were going into rio, he would explain about the schools, about the golf team. right. the state state award winners, its opening weekend for the movie the long game. but i want to thank you for giving voice to a community to many individuals outside of san felipe in that region and the legacy that mr. cardwell mentioned. i want to thank you all for being here for a poignant

afternoon and you've told us what's coming next as a scholar and historian, and also that if we are to by your book, which we all should buy several copies, we can do that through where there was the university of oklahoma press or you press dot org and you can also do it through amazon. you're okay with using amazon make purchases. well thank we want to thank dr. jesús jesse esparza tsai. we want to thank c-span tv. we want to thank all of you. and the author will be available for for some conversation for just few minutes because we do have the next event that's coming in in 15 minutes. let's give dr. katz, a round of applause. thank you. thank.

tonight on c-span.

>> in partnership with the library of congress, c-span brings you books that shaped america. our series explores key works of literature that have had a profound impact on the country. in this program, thomas payne's common sense from 1776. as the american revolution entered its second year, many colonists were divided over whether to reconcile with great britain or seek independence. but in january 1776 a pamphlet titled common sense was published in philadelphia. it penned anonymously by an englishman the author was thomas payne, a recent immigrant with

connections to founding fathers benjamin franklin and benjamin rush. the pamphlet laid out arguments and persuasive language for not only resisting british rule but casting it off. payne argued the colonists had an opportunity to create a new nation based on self-rule. the cause of america is the cause of all mankind payne wrote adding that the nearer any government approaches to a republic it -- republic the less business there is. common sense sold hundreds of thousands of copies and was distributed widely across the 13 colonies, it was off and read aloud in taverns and meeting houses which helped spread the patriot cause. in july 1776, six months after common sense was published, the continental congress signed the declaration of independence. host: welcome to books that shaped america a special c-span series that looks at how throughout our history, books have influenced who we are today.

this 10 week series will focus on different eras, different topics and different viewpoints. we are glad you are with us, joining us through this walk through history. tonight our focus is thomas payne and his 1776 common sense. joining us is richard bell, a university of maryland history professor who teaches common sense in his classes. professor bell it is january 1776, what is going on in the american colonies. >> it is a busy time, thank you for having me here. we can go all the way back to the stamp act of 1765 but that seems too far back so why don't we say 1774 it might be where we want to start this conversation. there has just been the boston tea party in december of 1773, and the british king of parliament who retaliated with a series of very coercive

draconian responses against the people of austin, the people of massachusetts. a set of acts known as the coercive acts or the citizens of boston call them the intolerable act. that is caused a lot of uproar, not just in boston massachusetts where these acts are being enforced but in many other colonies as well. so a sense of grievance spreading in 1774. in 1775 we saw the outbreak of hostilities, armed hostilities from lexington and concorde in april of 1775, the battle of bunker hill, the formation of the continental army and in november of 1775 two months before common sense hits philadelphia bookstores we see a royally appointed governor in virginia by the name of lord dunmore offering an extraordinary proclamation to enslaved men of fighting age if

they come and join royal forces to cross -- crush these rebels. now calling themselves patriots and he will grant them lifelong freedom so gradually slowly but surely tensions have been ramping up and what began as some modest political disagreements now seems on the verge of breaking open into something much more trying. peter: how strong was the loyalist sentiment at the point when common sense was published? richard: it is been hard to get a that question because we know what happens next, we know that the patriots will rise and rise and gather and we know that they will win by 1783 when the treaty of paris is signed it so it is important that we scroll back and realize that when this is all starting, it is no sure thing that a movement for separate nationhood, for american nationalism, for independence is going to gather

any supporters at all. we don't have accurate estimates of how many patriots are loyalists or neutrals there were. any single moment in time, but in january of 1776 when tom payne will publish this extraordinary pro independent pamphlet, very few other american colonists were talking openly, let alone loudly about independence. so the default position was for those who felt aggrieved by all of britain's policies, that something must be done. but that something did not yet have a name, and that name was not yet independence. so a redress of grievances was perhaps the order of the day for most aggrieved american colonists. peter: so professor richard bell, this 48 page pamphlet was published. how was it published and what did it contain? richard: oh my goodness.

it was published by a publisher with a very similar last name to mind, robert bell, no relation. unlike robert i am a u.s. citizen. robert bell was a philadelphia publisher with a reputation for publishing things which might make some of his competitors are customers angry. a sort of broad agenda politically speaking. thomas payne it had been scribbling the document we now know to be common sense in the fall of 1775, and shopped it around. robert bell was happy to publish it in part because thomas payne had developed a reputation very rapidly in recent months. as an anti-british flamethrower. agitator. so robert thought he probably might cause a little stir with a pamphlet with such a prominent thesis. he certainly did not know a war for independence would be

carried on the back of this pro independent pamphlet but he certainly hoped to make a buck or two. peter: let's read from common sense, in short monarchy and succession have laid not this or that kingdom only but the world in blood and ashes. small islands not capable of protecting themselves are the proper objects for kingdoms to take under their care, but there is something absurd in supposing a continent to be perpetually governed by an island. how subversive was this? richard: in so many ways very subversive indeed. there are people on both sides of the atlantic ocean who have criticized their king or queen before. there are people on both sides of the ocean who have criticized the monarchy as an institution before. but rarely with the vitality,

the energy, the command of the english language, the confidence that this relatively unknown writer thomas payne brought to the task. it is a rare and unusual thing for a public print like this pamphlet, this 48 page un-staged, unbound pamphlet, to say not just that the author has a bone to pick with the king but that all kings everywhere are and by nature will always be illegitimate. and a moral and unscrupulous. it takes extraordinary confidence at the very least to say something like that in public albeit anonymously when the pamphlet was first published. peter: so thomas payne was not writing abstract political philosophy. richard: it is a great question because he is drawing i think on an intellectual, political,

cultural well of what we might call republican with a small r, anti-monetary -- monarchy, stretching back 100 years. there have been an english civil war in england in the 16 40's which seemed anti-monarchist, the cut off the head of the king there. charles the first and that produced writing about why he would do such a thing. it's a pain it may or may not have been familiar with the some of that anti-monarchal writing of 100 years earlier. we certainly know that ever -- other revolutionaries like jefferson or reading and drinking and that well of ideas but i think you could also see payne's own personal politics coming through as well. peter: professor bell, was common sense a common phrase at that time? richard: i'm going to leave it to our friends at the oxford english dictionary to put a particular date on that sort of usage but one thing i did learn in reading some of the wonderful scholarship on thomas payne is that in an earlier phase of his

life when he had been a journalist and debater in england he sometimes published pieces in local newspapers in britain. he did not use his own name to sign those pieces, he used a pseudonym. a made up name or phrase. for the federalist papers for instance. but the one he chose back in england in the 1770's was common sense, so he saw that as a name to plume. a pen name. richard: what was the immediate reaction when common sense hit philadelphia? richard: if found a readership very quickly. we know that not because everyone who bought one wrote down what they bought one and told historians, reading documents in the labors of congress with a thought. but because we know from printing records just how many copies were printed and how many more additions had to rapidly be rushed into print.

not just by robert bell in philadelphia but by rival printers basically ignoring any sort of copyright claims in publishing their own bootleg versions in philadelphia. and then printers in other towns and cities from boston and providence to new york and charleston rushing their own bootleg versions of common sense into print within a matter of weeks. and lots of pamphlets by lots of different authors were published in 1776 but none have the sort of rapid take-up in sales that common sense did. by the end of that first year, 1776, it was published in january, it was the best-selling political pamphlet of the year. there were plenty of readers who hated it and plenty who did not want to read it at all but among those who read it, many found that they were very sympathetic to it. peter: when you read common sense it reads kind of like the declaration of independence. here is a statement and then a

diatribe against the king of england. richard: i love that observation. i am hoping we can talk more about the declaration of independence in this conversation because that is a parallel i've been thinking about as well. when we think about the declaration of independence written after common sense in july of 1776, we often think about that list of grievances that thomas jefferson wrote about king george. all those 25, 27, however many grievances. that he has, he has, taking one charge and leveling it to the king of england after another. i would argue that jefferson must have gotten that idea of personifying the enemy from thomas payne. as you point out, to read common sense is to watch thomas payne say all of the grievances the american colonists are experiencing. they are one man's fault. in that one man is george the third. so there is a same sense of prosecuting in a murder trial in both of those documents. peter: we are talking about 1776

and common sense. we want to give you a snapshot of what the colonies, america was like in 1776. common sense was published in january of that year, about 2.5 one million, or if you estimate the population of economies -- colonies, with economies based on for trapping -- the second continental congress governed them at the time and john hancock was president of the congress. the revolutionary war started 4/19/1775. an independence from britain was declared six months after common sense on july 4 1776 and the taxation rate, this is the number that surprises me, was 1.5%. and there was protest against that. richard: times have changed somewhat haven't they? we could talk in depth about taxation and british policy but

i -- let me make two points about the taxes. one is why is britain imposing all of these taxes over the previous 10 or 13 years on these hapless american colonists who don't like having their taxes raised? one thing to bear in mind is that britain in those colonies had just fought a major global war in the 1750's and 1760's called the seven years war. we in the united states sometimes call it the french and indian war which is its local name. but this global war against the french empire had almost bankrupted the english treasury and so there was a massive national debt in britain. as far as the ministers there were concerned it needed to be paid down. taxation is a way to do that. what many fakes -- folks may not know is it was not just the american colonists who were being handed new taxes to pay down this imperial war that. 20 a british subjects in england itself, scotland and wales were

facing higher taxation to but they did not have the same tools at their disposal as people 3000 miles across the sea to register their discontent about taxation with inadequate representation. peter: so nearly 250 years later richard bell, does thomas payne's common sense hold up and still have an impact? richard: of course, i reread it today. and you did too. there are passages, so many which leap off the page as if they are the sort of political writing that would animate people at any time in any place. the document has some different sections serving different purposes, one part early on is the writings of a very animated constitutional scholar. and they may strike some readers without any familiarity with english constitutionalism as less vivacious as other parts

but once you get into the heart of this document, especially the long section were pain dismantles monarchies as legitimate institutions, then pain seems to find his vibe. his groove in the writing really starts to soar both in terms of his rhetoric but also interestingly in the language choices he uses. he starts to talk at you much more directly and clearly. you feel like he is next to you and you are talking with someone very smart and very opinionated who is going to win you over. that is payne's genius. to use the plain spoken language of a tavern go are really to engage ordinary people. he is not writing for the thomas jefferson's of the world he is writing for the man and woman in the street who can be persuaded by a well reasoned yet clear and

accessible prose. peter: take it forward, where would you put him on today's political spectrum? richard: his politics are completely fascinating. to understand his politics you need to realize that common sense is not all there is to thomas payne. i would argue that tom payne wrote three masterpieces for which he is remembered. in some ways they are very different from one another their names are common sense, the rights of man, and the age of reason. he wrote the other two in the 1790's about two years apart and they have a lot to do with the context of the french revolution which was unfolding by that time. what we can say at the general level is that payne knew what he thought and that his ideology was consistently pro-republic with a small r and pro-democracy. of course with a small d.

he wants ordinary people to have responsive, elective, accountable, transparent, representative -- he is suspicious of organized or ancient power structures like monarchies and organized religion. and so he was one-of-a-kind but i see a lot of lead during any in those ideas. peter: good evening and thank you for joining us for the this book shaping america a kick off of a 10 week series here on c-span looking at books that shaped america. shaped our history, made us who we are today. this list from a longer list put up by the library of congress in 2013. we chose 10 books from that list , you can find all of this information on our website dedicated to this series c-span.org/books that shaped america. this is an interactive series

and we want to hear from you. tonight we are talking about thomas payne and common sense will put the phone numbers up on the screen in case he would like to participate in our conversation here with professor richard bell of the university of maryland. 202798 -- for those in the mountain and pacific time zones and if you can't get to the phones and would still like to make a comment or question try the text number. this is for text messages, 202, 748 8003. if you do send a text please include your first name and your city. we will begin taking those calls in just a few minutes. i have mentioned that our partners in this endeavor is the library of congress we are using some of their materials. we are going up and shooting some materials of first

manuscripts etc.. a lot of the books that we will be covering in this series and we want to show you this video. this is one of their archivists with an original copy of common sense. >> i am a curator in the rare book and special collections division at the library of congress. we have here thomas payne's common sense. the first edition. it was printed in january 1776 in philadelphia. it is a 47 page pamphlet in which pain who was a recent immigrant to the colonies, argued for separation from great britain. up until this time americans consider themselves to be part of great britain. even though it there had already been some battles between the american colonies and great britain, most americans wanted

reconciliation. this pamphlet change their attitudes towards the monarchy and the abuses of great britain towards the american colonies. and encouraged and persuaded them to establish a new government. it's divided into four parts. the first is on the history of government and the second part deals with monarchy and hereditary succession. the third part deals with the current state of american affairs, and the fourth part talks about the ability of america to govern itself into form a navy that could challenge the royal navy. this is a first edition and i don't know exactly how many

copies were printed in the first edition. there were several additions printed very quickly because it was a very popular pamphlet. there have been estimates of around 75,000 to 100,000 printed within the first few months. eventually i have seen figures that suggest there were around half a million copies printed in total. at the time, the colonies consisted of about 2.5 million inhabitants and that makes it the best selling book in all of american history. they would have purchased this pamphlet from local booksellers or the printer, in terms of the technical production it uses probably handmade paper that was created on a chain line type paper. and it would have been issued without its binding. it is a pamphlet.

people were expected to bind their own books at the time. this particular book or pamphlet is part of our american imprints collection. with this collection at the american imprints collection, we tried to document the early printing history of the united states and preserve that for posterity. peter: richard bell, are curator at the library of congress was talking about the four sections of the book. why is it important to note how thomas payne divided this book? richard: we don't have payne's own inside baseball account of why he structured it this way. we are sort of left to read the tea leaves a little bit. but i would say he is sort of taking us back to first principles. the first section talks about what governments are for which is not a question many would

pause to reflect on. he takes us back to basics and he says governments are intended for a limited number of purposes. one of which is security, that they have resources to protect us from external threat and quickly and his survey of the history of governments across this planet over several thousand years, which is all done very tightly in a few pages, he makes the argument that governments -- most of them have lost their way. they have exceeded their original purposes and responsibilities and in some way or other, either become bloated and inefficient or become tyrannical and dangerous. those are the two choices. that is setting himself up to then look at one particular

government which is the british government under charles the third which he will do in the third part but in the interim he tackles monarchies. a particular form of government and it would be quite the understatement to say that thomas payne is not a fan. i would be happy to lay out a little more of that, pain sees hereditary monarch is as fundamentally problematic. again in ways that many of us today, especially those of us with a british accent may not always reflect upon. he sees what is unnatural, what is odd about hereditary monarchies. that we concentrate lots of power individuals who we then do not let it in parliament directly would have to sit outside of parliament therefore not knowing what the other hand of government is doing. necessarily. the royal families are people who in payne's words have come

to those positions of power not by any great intellectual advantage or political acuity, but because either they were born into a dynastic line by accident or birth they end up ruling millions of people. or because they are the upstart young man who has killed the previous dynasty of kings and said i think i can do better. which is how every new dynasty at least in the british royal family is often started. so payne appoints all these things out to american readers and labels them and frames them as absurdities. so problem is sizing the conventional wisdom, the status quo and saying we don't have to accept the way it is, we have it in our power to begin the world over again. which of course then takes us into the current state of affairs between america and the british government, which by january of