but then cnn financial news closed down and i joined the main station. but i also then started hosting cnn show that was co-hosted out of london and hong kong and produced in hong kong, which sort of segway me into a little bit of international affairs and then al jazeera hired me. i was still an economics, but i was much more in international affairs, affairs kind of guy. and at cnn, i had done a lot of higher risk stuff, hurricanes and things like. so when you morph it all together, i've become the sort of this different person. but then i joined msnbc and the reason i did it was right before the election of 2016. i literally two weeks before the election i think was october end of october. and the thinking was that the prevailing wisdom at the time was that hillary clinton was going to be the president of the united states and there would be a lot of policy oriented stuff that administration and i had

become adept at breaking and explaining policies. i had read the whole affordable care act, for instance, and, you know, dug into it. i like this kind stuff. so they thought that's what i would do at msnbc. and i write about the fact that they hired me because there was an anchor slot very very early in the morning and it was 5 a.m. or something like that. but i had built that show at cnn for the woman, who was now my boss at msnbc. she said, can you help us fix the show up? and i said, but that meant going to bed very early election night. i go home before polls close and i take a nice hearty little ambien and go to sleep. and i write about this in the book where suddenly my phone rings and it's my boss. she says, i need you in the office now. and i said, why? and said, because markets a markets are tanking. futures are taking worldwide. i said, why? and they said, because donald trump is winning. and i said along the lines of this is b.s. and i hung up phone and call me back and said, turn on your tv. so was very sleepy guy that i in office an hour later the so look

i mean so you are in this this new transition into doing not business journalism right but doing more political journalism and you're getting around seeing the world seeing people in their communities. and when does strike you like how does it strike that you know, you are doing a different type job in a job that you in other parts you relate back more to this idea understanding citizenship in a different way it it it probably started in that post to 2016 era when fundamental issues about our society became to us. but i wouldn't say that was entirely obvious to me. it really struck me literally. it's how i opened the book in minneapolis on on may 30th, 2020, when i literally struck with a rubber bullet in my leg. got shot. i got shot and and that's when

it occurred to. me a few things occurred to me all at once that that my parents arrived on these shores some 50 years earlier. and that marked the end of their quest for democracy. and i thought that we put that in a drawer that's over. that's a piece of ancient history we don't talk about anymore. and i'm thinking, i seem to be in the middle of quest for democracy all of a sudden wasn't hundred percent clear to me, but it was starting to gel that something else was going here and that i was hit by an armed agent of, the state, into what was subsequently described as a violent rally. i was there. i was one of the reasons i go to these hurricanes and i go to these things as i'm there, and i was able to say that's simply not what happened. that's simply not true. and donald trump decided he would campaign on this issue for a little while about that particular night and my my getting hit and what was going. it just wasn't true. his story is much more compelling than mine is, but but it wasn't true.

and the third thing that occurred to me is that people talk to me and i'm sure you about what an interesting job you have, you have a front row to what is unfolding in the world. the front row history. and i realized there that not it we're not in the front row. we're in the arena. once you get in shot, you're in the arena, you're in it, you're in it. and so are all of you. we are all in this thing. this is an fight for the preservation of democracy in which we all exist. now we have slightly different roles to play in. it but we have to decide to play it. and it's okay for me. be an activist in favor. democracy is okay. it's sort of like being an activist in favor of peace or activist in favor of of a safer climate. that's not a partizan, politically partizan thing. it is a is saying democracy exists because of an informed electorate it. and my role is to help that electorate be informed. hence i am a tool of democracy. i'm a part of democracy. i exist of democracy and

democracy hopefully flourishes because of the type of work that i do. and so that connection to citizenship as an obligation as opposed to a series of rights started become clearer to me and i was sort of for citizenship is the right to vote the right to do this it's an obligation to uphold democracy. and you became an american citizen. i did become an american citizen based around that. yeah. and, you know, i was sort of ambivalent about the whole thing. i don't think it was a you know, i treated it with such such a casual approach that i don't think i didn't tell anybody. nobody even came to the swearing in. i didn't think it was an important matter. there's a selfie of me that i took thinking maybe i should just memorialize this. but i did realize. in that citizenship swearing in ceremony ceremony. there are a number of students in the room here and i had little conversation with them earlier about this that i treat some things very casually because the kind of life i live so i'm on planes all the time. so i don't, you know, to me it's a it's like taking a bus. and i started realizing it. sometimes you get on a plane and that's somebody's first trip.

that's some kid's first trip. i remember my first trip on an airplane. it was life or that somebody's going to meet spouse or somebody going to see a sick relative or say goodbye to a sick relative or somebody's honeymoon. and i needed to start to think about fact that these things we share all mean different things to all of us. and so i finally, because in the citizenship court room, they take your phone away, which i think is nonsense so here i am sitting there for like it's like 2 hours long. they're filing everybody. i haven't i don't have any on the phone with me, but they they give you a constitution and i read the constitution cover to cover three times in that time. it's nice it's a good document and and i was never cause to sit and do it. but between reading the constitution and saying, well, we don't live up to all the things that are written in this thing, it's pretty meet the things that are written in and all of these people in all of the different reasons why they might be in this room with me swearing for their citizenship. maybe it is to marry someone. maybe it is because they married someone. it is to pursue their dreams.

or maybe this marks the end of their their escape from some other place. i don't know. but it struck me that this should be treated more importantly than i've been treating it. and then came the idea that not only should this be treated, more importantly, but i have obligations toward citizenship and the upholding of democracy. it doesn't just exist around me. and you can't just sit in 2024 and say, what is me? this is looking really bad? you have ways to make it the outcome bad and we have to engage in them. so in the 7 minutes that we have with us today, i i'm going to ask you two questions fundamentally because i mean this is a bit of a synopsis of some of the comments from the audience is one is the state journalism. and the second is the state of democracy. i wonder if you'd say about democracy here in this country particularly, but also democracy around the world. yeah. and also what your sense of the election, you know, and we're in the middle of this is mega

election year around the world. yeah. but particularly the the us election is and so we start backwards is the election last year i think any of us can remember more people are going the polls, more than half of the world's voters are going the polls some of those elections are fair. some of them are not. some of them are predetermined, some of them are not. some of them should be worrisome, including the one in india that's underway right now. because india, turkey, hungary are all examples of what we need to worry about. and that is not dictatorship or autocracy coming born of revolution, the kind in which you change all the airport names on the main streets and the schools and all that kind of stuff. but but this the soft thing where you as voters of your frustration with the way certain are going hand over certain rights to people who will tell that they have a better solution or a more obvious solution than the difficult work of democracy and. that's where we are around the world. and the president of the united states likes to say that democracy is growing around the world and autocracy is

shrinking. i take exception to that. don't think he's right. i think it's wishful. i think i wish he were right, but i don't think he is right so a, we need our democracy in america and we need to prevent erosions when half the country is at risk of losing their reproductive rights. that's actually a problem for. the other half, too, right? this is when you when you need clarity on that one look at south africa, where 6% of the population voted in apartheid days. their democracy was fantastic. it was fantastic for the 6%. they had all the choice in the world. they had different candidates they could choose from. it was neat. it didn't occur to them that the 94% needed democracy too. so for us in america, we have realize that that this not a women's reproductive rights problem this is an our rights problem. and we need to we need to step up and deal with that. but so we need our own rights. but the world and you know, this is the beauty of talking to you

as who are not americans. the world likes to talk about america the world likes to talk smack about america. the world likes it when america takes one on the chin every now and then. but they don't want it to fail. they do not want this democratic to fail. it would be bad because the influence the world who would be influenced by the negatively influenced by the failure of american democracy, they're ready to pounce. there are a number of bad actors in the world right now, who are just waiting to see if they can wait out the biden administration and some of their hijinx. there may be their valid arguments about america not being the policeman to the except car star crashing into each other when america is not not there. sometimes there are many people who say america's role in the middle east has not been as robust as it should have been. it certainly isn't going to get better without america there, believe it or so. we have to take that seriously. save your democracy the sake of saving your democracy. but save your democracy, the

sake of saving global democracy and the role of journalism is complicated in this. i would say this that cable news has contributed to. and and social media has has finished the job in complexity from matters that are inherently complex. right. the thing you and i did growing up, as we argued and debated about political ideas that were that were in front of us at the time, we now live in a world where embracing complexity on issue is seen as a moral failure not able to immediately have a take on very complicated things that are going on in the world is seen as a moral failure, not engaging one side or the other. only seems like a moral failure. and i would like to get it. i would like to help us get away from that and am trying in my journalism, in my waning days of my career, to do that, to have

us engage with each other respectfully. through empathy, understand ending pluralism and understanding these matters are all really complicated. if they weren't complicated, we'd have solved them for television journalism. you know, you can sort of point the finger at television journalism. you know, clearly you've pointed out this kind of crossfire, which might have started, you know, networks that you might have. i was an intern, worked with the us and and the medium clearly has its its own message in this instance. yeah. and it's own mode and it's got limitations but actually the old crossfire wasn't terrible environment because people were really debating things that they came by honestly they weren't gaslighting. right our our danger in media today is that people are to you it's not that they have opinions. everybody's got opinions and we have we are we are not squirrels we are humans. we can discern people's opinions

and we can say, well, i know where he's coming from this. but he articulated that very well and i need to think about that and learn how to debate. we're going away from that. we're not looking to engage, debate other people. we're just looking for the we don't have to with whom we don't have to debate. that is not what going to create a healthy society. it does create lot of viewers. it does create a lot of followers on social media. but would rather do the opposite. i would rather that if you are operating in good faith and you truly believe what you believe and we can have a basic that we're on the same side of preserving democracy as our as a as the structure within we within which we exist. then on and let's have a debate and i bring those people on to my show and my viewers don't all love what i do but but i'm not here to protect your sensitivities i'm here to allow you to understand the breadth of opinion that that is out there. and that is our role. that's what we should be doing, allowing breadth of opinion to be out there and to be debated on every issue, on every issue. our role and society's role is

not to keep people intellectually comfortable. it is not keep them intellectually safe and. so we need to lean into that in the coming months, the coming days and the coming years to remind people. this country was built on some discussion and it needs to continue to move forward on the basis of a robust discussion. hot takes.

lindsay clemons debut novel what we lose was a finalist for the aspen words literary prize, the california book, a hurston wright legacy award, and the national book critics circle, leonard prize. she is a 2017 national book award. five under 35 honoree. and her new essay collection at freedom is forthcoming from viking. lindsay is professor of english at the university of california davis. nell irvin painter is the author of books of history, including the new york times bestseller the history of white people, sojourner truth, a life, a

symbol, and the national book critics circle finalist, old in art school, a memoir of starting over. she is the edwards professor of american history emerita at princeton university and a fellow of the american academy of arts and sciences. she has also received honorary degrees from yale wesleyan and the university of north carolina at hill and dartmouth after a ph.d. in history from harvard, she earned degrees in, painting from mason gross school of the arts at rutgers and the rhode island school design. now lives and works in east orange, new jersey. of course, this evening we're here to celebrate in elle's new book, i just keep talking a life in essays. this comprehensive new collection of essays spans art, politics and the legacy of racism that shapes american history as we know it. assembling her writing for the time into a single volume i just keep talking displays the, breadth and depth of nell's decades long historical inquiry and the evolution of black political thought.

henry louis gates jr had this to say no. irvin painter is one of the towering black of the last half century. i just keep talking. is more than an odyssey for the senses. it's a revelation. and that will inspire courage in anyone seeking to express their truth. we are honored to welcome nelsons and zee to the midtown scholar this evening. so without further ado, please join me in giving them a warm harrisburg welcome. thank you. and hello. okay. hi, everyone. it's to see you all. no it's hello city. it's a wonderful deal to be here

and truly an honor to share this dangerous music here. thank you so much for inviting me, kay. so. i'm very happy to be here to celebrate this book with you. i just keep talking. there are really few writers who can speak with equal depth about history, about the craft of writing and literature about politics, popular culture and visual art. but in unique collection, you managed to do all of that. and then some painters a capacious thinker whose curiosity has never been constrained by genre or discipline and whose courage has led her to distinguished careers in academe here in writing and visual arts, by collecting writing on multiple subjects together alongside her artwork,

a full picture of painter's genius, which is not just a sum its parts but is characterized by her ability to think within and between where in each part deepened by their ability to to each other for its depth. i just keep talking is remarkably readable funny and intelligent without down or pandering to an audience. for those of us familiar with painter's work, the book a celebration of her genius, and for those new to her, this is a delightful entry point into her esteemed and capacious body of work. in the essay, long divisions, which is about the growing recognition of black writers from james baldwin to, toni morrison to toni tanahashi coates painter mentions the 1988 new york times letter signed by 48 black writers demanding the recognition of morrison's work. and it struck me while reading this that perhaps this work

might also argue for the recognition of painter as one of this nation's great seers. a person in possession of striking onto the country's and an implicit understanding of the mechanisms of racism classism and sexism and whose body of work forms an excellent basis to understand our country. so with that said, i'm going to i'm going to let you talk as much as possible. and i want to start the process of assembling this book as we started talking about backstage, because it's both an book and an essay collection. and i wondered how you arrived at this format and tell us a little bit about the process of putting it together. yeah. thank you so much. what a lovely introduction.

i'm fortunate to have such thoughtful introduction and so complete. thank you. the process of a publication is something i could talk about forever. i've been very interested in the history of the book, which is material history and the history of book is a field that is very old, but for longest time it didn't take account of black authors and black writing. it tended toward sort of european elizabethan and so on and the granular history of books made often in britain, but one of the wonderful things that's happened in the current times in the 21st century is

that fields have opened up to other. so for. oh yes. is a chance for me to brag about another new book. second edition of truth hope, think, publish it. two days ago. congratulations. wait. all. you thought i was just carrying this for my lunch. oh, wow. already? wow. and this is the third edition of standing armageddon. the united states at the turn of the 20th century. so the old books are coming back and coming back and coming back. so i wanted you to know about that. at any rate, one of the things that's happened in the 21st

century really in the second decade of the 21st century, is that what we think of as the archive, what we think of as our techniques of knowing society and the past? this is opened up tremendously. so i mentioned the history, the book i use that with sojourner truth. so i mentioned securing in truth. so this book, this was published a quarter of a century ago and worked as hard as i could with the tools i had at that time. i did not have tool like the history of the book with me and. i know we want to talk about paper and printing and so forth, but what the history the book was done for me is to say so or truth as an author, as self-published author of and as

told to autobiography that she had printed. she marketed. she destroyed, muted herself. and when she went to akron, ohio. she was on her own book tour. so that's something that's going to go into my new book on sojourner truth called sojourner truth, which seemed new york. oh, didn't say that. so that's the new we can do with the discourse. but you ask about publishing and printing. so if you have, i just talking in your hand, the first thing you'll notice is the book is really heavy. yeah. and the reason it's heavy is because it has this wonderful paper that you can see full

color often full page images of my artwork. yeah. so i started being interested in paper and printing and publishing in 2005, as i finishing up creating black, which is a narrative of black americans. but it's a history. but all the images black fine art, which means i needed color, i needed reproduction that were big enough for you to see, which meant luckily i had an editor who knew a lot about people and he was able to understand the need for paper to answer the need for paper and to have the book printed. at that time, which was 2005,

had a printer who could deal with the paper and the color. so that's where i first started understanding. and then with aldon school, the memoir, it had, it's full of images, again, my own artwork. it's of works in progress. so you see how i doing as i go along. and so once again, we needed full page, we needed good sized. we need throughout not just insert and again we needed good paper. now the publisher was an independent publisher called counterpoint in berkeley. and they were able to do that. so when it came time for i just keep talking and we were talking about the the contract. i said, i want to be able to put in full color, full page images

throughout. and they said, oh, i don't know, we can't do that. the vocal costs $40. it'll be prohibited. nobody will buy it. and i thought of my little publisher in berkeley, and i said, if they can do it in berkeley, you can do it in new york york. so i said, go talk to your graphics people. they and they talk to their graphics people and the technology is not the same technology. from 1996. yeah, not the same as 2500. so they back and they say, yeah, we can do it. so the book does not cost $40. and it's very heavy. so all of you writers out here insist. absolutely. put it in the contract. put it in the contract. yeah, literally.

thank. i want to now go to the title of the book. yeah. so the title comes from you tell a story in the introduction. about an editor at knopf. i believe, who rejected a biography. joseph hudson. yes, just because he was a stolid artist and the conversation went something like. hudson doesn't tug at the heartstrings. right. and you replied, well, neither do i. i just keep talking. and you say, feisty mouthy, unrepentant is how you describe both him and yourself, which i find highly accurate. i just. i just keep talking. you said. and writing and publishing books that their way haltingly, bringing me just enough of a following for a very nice career.