at a tremendous loss if we do not know where we came from. understanding the federalist papers understand -- helps us understand what was going on when they wrote the constitution. we have to understand what it is we are trying to achieve so we can continue to become more perfect. the biggest challenge is the language. it is difficult to navigate. people are people but the way we talk changes. when we are thinking about what was written in the newspaper and compare it to a current newspaper articles they do not have much in common in terms of language and phrasing so getting the students t unpe language is one of the biggest challenges. what i want my students to understand is that these ordinary humans were extraordinary heroes.

we are having this national conversation about how we teach social science. the idea that multiple things can be true, we have people who struggled but also did great things and history connects, the things we experience now have lines back to the struggles from back then. peter: we want to thank the social science teacher for sharing her thoughts on teaching the federalist papers. charles from louisville, kentucky, thank you for holding. go ahead. >> my question is on the checks and balances on the constitution and politics we have today. it seems to me that legislation

was changed years ago when the democrats had full control and when they lost the house, they could not seem to pass any bills because they cannot get them on the floor because the democrats really had control of the house. peter: thank you. charles brought contemporary politics into our discussion. are they relevant to what we have been talking about? prof. sheehan: sure. even though we have political parties today, there is still separation of powers and checks and balances because ambition counteracts ambition. you see that in state legislatures and between and among the various branches of government.

democrats side with democrats and republicans side with -- democrats vie with democrats and republicans vie with republicans to be the next speaker of the house or president. one thing i wanted to mention was the question of choice in politics. because i think charles was sort of talking about the parties not really having a choice unless they have the majority. that is one of the things that i think is most important in politics today, to realize that even though it is tough to get things done because of separation of power and checks and balances on what people called deadlocks, congress needs to take responsibility for legislation and not abdicate the

responsibility to other branches of government, the judiciary has become more powerful partly in response to congress not doing their job. i do not think this is a partisan claim at all. it is a question about the role of those who represent the american people and standing up and actually doing the job of legislation. if they are not doing the job, the people are not being represented well in the united states. peter: the federalist was not the only book published from 1758 through 1800 in the united states. on the list, here are some of the otherseatured. >> the legend of sleepy hollow was published in 1820. the book of mormon for the church of jesus christ of latter day saints was published in 30. mcguffey's newly revised primer

published in 1836. children were taught geography and history with a book written in 1837. a selection of stories from edgar allen poe was published in 1845. here are more books from the library of congress list of books that shaped america. the scarlet letter, 1850. moby dick, 1851. uncle tom's cabin by harriet beecher stowe released in 1852. henry david thorough writing about nature and solitary -- solidarity in 1854 with his bo, lden. peter: if you go to c-span.g you will find the library of congress list of 100 books over the past 250 years or so that have influenced who we are

today, shaped public pic and made us who we are. u can find that full list. we have chosen 10 from the list for our series. you can create your own list on c-span.org, books that shaped america. at the top you can click a viewer input and sending your videos about how you think books have shaped america, specicly if you have a book on your list that is not related to the one we are talking about. click on the button and send in aideo and we might use it. we want to show you some of the viewer videos now. >> my name is david. i think a book that shaped america is where the wild things grow. for so many of us it is one of

the first books we ever read. we run it with our parents and it created enthusiasm and excitement for reading and we kept wanting to turn the next page, which is still part of the reading journey for so many of us. >> i am sarah baldwin. i live and work in washington, d.c. and the book i think that shaped america is the souls of black folks by w ide the boy. -- wb deploy. he discusses the issues around race in the country and how we can resolve them. that is the book i think should be part of this series. >> i am grant from chattanooga, tennessee. the book i think shaped america is beloved by toni morrison. it explores race in america in cool and interesting ways. it is very atmospheric.

thank you. >> my name is ryan donaldson and a man washington, d.c. and the book that shaped the country is [indiscernible] and it shapes the u.s. because [inaudible] it informs the viewer to get to the ballot box. >> blue highways shaped america. it showcases the part of america that is not often seen in most modern or major literary works and i think it is a very important piece of americana and culture. peter: there is the website. books that shaped america at c-span.org. find all 10 books we will feature in the series and you can find additional videos on each book, plus we have a

podcast talking about the authors of each book. you can get the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. mark from bridgewater, massachusetts, please go ahead. >> good evening and distinguished guests. when i think about the contribution of the founding fathers on the work of a have done with the federalist papers, i am also thinking about the 18th century americans were interested in preserving the liberty for which they had fought virtually loosely -- virtuously during the revolution. each individual state had specific needs and it is understanding why they had reservations about potentially sacrificing liberties to a central government. my question is, must americans be prepared to sacrifice

additional liberties as our world becomes increasingly complex? thank you very much. peter: gregory? judge maggs: he has a premise on a question. i agree with the premise. one of the biggest concerns they had to address is now we will have a more powerful central government which means the states will be less powerful which means you might not have as much liberty as you might otherwise have. one of the biggest challenges the authors faced was how to explain that this was actually going to be an improvement. they talked about a lot of different things. they talked about the fact that if the union fell apart, every individual state would have to have their own standing army to defend itself but if we had a union we would not need a standing army of this kind. if you had a federal government and state government to check each other.

you mentioned today, is it the case that we have to sacrifice liberty in order to have a successful government. i hope not. as a judge i do not really get into politics but i do not think this is a new debate. it is very similar to the debate you pointed out occurred back then. peter: colleen from arizona state university, you have 30 seconds. did the federalist impact who we are today? prof. sheehan: yes. yes. i think the most important of the papers is federalist 51, or medicine proclaims justice is the end of government, of civil society. it will never be pursued until

liberty be lost in its pursuit. that is my answer to the last caller's question. judge maggs: it definitely has and watching that fabulous high school with the teacher and enthusiasm of students i think it would be hard to deny the impact of the papers have had on america. peter: thank you both so much for spending the last 90 minutes with us on c-span's books that shaped america. and thank you, callers. ♪

today. it's my pleasure to welcome to vanderbilt law school steven hale author of an extraordinary new book about capital

punishment in tennessee death row. welcomes you hours in the shadow of the execution chamber. i read the book in manuscript last fall and ever since i've thinking about the story that it tells of people marked by pain, trauma and inescapable trans aggression and what happens when they find friendship an, unconditional love. it's truly a masterpiece of crime, punishment and redemption. and it's on sale outside. and stephen will be signing copies after the talk. steven hale, a reporter for the nashville banner and one of our city's sharpest working journalists. he spent years as a staff reporter covering criminal justice and for the nashville scene, he's written extensively about tennessee's death row, and he's won an association of alternative news media best reporting award in 19 2020.

his works also appear appeared at the appeal the daily beast and the washington post. joining him in conversation is alvaro andric, a chair director of the immigration practice clinic here, the law school, who has a deep to hale's story. so please join me in welcoming steven hale to vanderbilt. thank you. let me turn this on very go now i'm standing. thank you so much for being here. it's such an amazing kind of journey that has brought all the way here. yes, i think that we haven't talked much since we last saw each other back 2000, i think 19 or 20 about that time. thank you for being here. i'm really honored to be able to share this you and be able to be here with you and i want to

start and we haven't practice. there's too much we haven't done much of like a plan for this because i think he's going to come up very naturally. but i wanted to start by reading just one fragment from your book that i just started reading recently haven't finished. if i may be completely honest, but i wanted to to start with with a small chapter and small paragraph here it says the people experiences and that make up this book have changed my life. i hope that by presenting them here i can contribute in some small way. today are that we are all of us capable of terrible and beautiful things that people are so often harmed before their are others and that as a lawyer and activist, stevenson says each of us, is more than with the worst thing we've ever done. and with that, i wanted to start by asking you, how did you find your way to unity? yes. thank you very much for here. thank you, everyone, for coming.

i've never been to vanderbilt law school, so is a bit of an achievement for me. thank you? yeah, it's very special. you're here, alvaro and our friend is here because the two of you actually are the way that i made my way. unit two tennessee's death row in 2018. tennessee was gearing up for its first execu ation in nearly decade, and that was the execution. a man named billy ray eric alvaro was had become quite close with and as i was covering that case in the run up to that started asking around about i might be able to get in touch with some of the men on death row to try to interview them or see if they wanted to make a statement of any kind. these executions were approaching and as i was kind of asking around about that, i got put in touch with a man named david bass, who was here in the audience and met up with him and told me this extraordinary thing, that there are these

people who go to riverbend maximum security about, you know, 15 minutes from here and go to death row and sit around and hang out and visit the men. on tennessee's death row. and he said, in fact, i know the man who visits billy ray eric. and so he introduced me to you and everyone we talked know on the phone and, i ended up interviewing alvaro in the run up to that execution. and then after billy ray eric's execution. i was able to go out to the prison myself, to unit two, to the visitation there, which is a very surreal place. and sit in a small with, you know, ten men from death row. and about that many visitors, share some popcorn and have a sort of extraordinarily normal time, which really was unforgettable and led me to writing this book, basically.

and so i guess when you like when you first got there, was there an idea of this is going to happen? how i how did that when did the book in it? well, the i think after i two things as you know some of the folks who on death row held a memorial service, a funeral for billy ray eric and i ended up going to that and was very moved by it. some of billy's paintings were there and. some folks spoke, including alvaro, about and about the time they'd spent with him. and then i also so that experience and then getting to go myself to the visitation gallery and visit of these men and see the community existed out there in a place which is almost by definition supposed to eliminate community was when i there was probably more of a story there that a long time ago now but at the time it seemed

like a good idea to try to write a book it but yeah and i know and i know in the book you talk about your your first visit which for me personally extremely i guess it was a learning experience go into into the prison itself and and all the things i'm curious to know more about how it was for you like how when you've had you ever been to a jail or prison before you know. i don't have to think i don't know if that i had i think i had been to a prison once before. maybe not, not in this kind of context, certainly not to talk to anyone. it was very it was very interesting experience. i'd actually love for you to tell your story as well, which i happen to know is a good one. but and maybe folks have been out to the prison, but yeah, you know, we we showed there, i want to say 515 and kind of waited outside, mingling around with some folks and right away.

there's a sense of this very kind of unusual and overlooked community because people there waiting outside the prison, some of them were there to go visit, people on death row, but others were family members of other people at the prison who are just waiting to go visit their ones and so there's this kind of group of people are either carrying the weight of that. they're going to visit people who have been kind of shunned from society. it's a very unusual kind group and, you know, there a lot of funny things about it, though. the first being that there is is kind of a almost. almost a game of chicken between visitors there to see who would go. and first meet anyone who's been out to this morning. yes, i'm lauren killeen. i'm a second year litigation associate at our d.c. office. i do. on general capturing the back from another inmate with the voice of which is generally referred to defense work in our

enforcement and defense investigations practice. so so that's very interesting interesting. i think we're good then i think we're cool now the. end turned around like as if someone was back just deciding to give their own lecture. yeah yeah. what i was saying that there was this almost this game of chicken between the visitors of who was going to go in first because the corporal who is sort of over the security apparatus there at riverbend, which is i always say, feels it's a security checkpoint and. actually, it feels a lot more like a kind of going through security at some like small, hostile, foreign nation. it's not very elaborate. there's a few people there who are just kind of curt with you. and sometimes nice sometimes not. not in a hurry to do much of anything. but if you walk in before they want you to, they will just send you back outside. so i know i remember david and some of the folks who were there kind of giving each other a hard

time, who was going to go in first. and of course, there's a there's a whole process making sure you're not wearing some article of clothing you're not allowed to wear and going through metal detectors and scanners and whatnot and but think the thing the thing that really did stick with me and i mentioned this before and you and i have talked about it alvaro this thing to me about going to the prison that i had not thought of, even myself, i had gone there. but i say everyone now, which is that one of the strangest experiences of going into a prison is that as you sort of move deeper, the prison, you can never go through the door in front of you until the door behind you. and so there's this the it's not metaphorical. i mean, you really are. it's a real sense of that. you're being kind of locked in there in a way and even though it's sort of embarrassing to say in hindsight, but in the moment, it does kind of make you feel a little anxious, you know, even

though, you know, of course, that you're you will just walk back out. it doesn't quite feel that way. and that's a weird way to enter into this world. and then feel kind of this elevated and then go into this room and feel it all sort of pass as you have this remarkably normal inner interaction with with the men on death. but but yeah. what, what about yours? i think. yeah, yeah, i and i'll definitely say that and think that, that it was part of the thing that was so surreal to me. and i'm curious to know and i know it will be tough to come out of it. can you raise your hand if you've been to the jail prison already or at some point you go, so we got some folks up in there. so yeah, the closing and the opening of the doors. so it just gives you this like, you know, just feels really weird in it. just going in there. remember, it's actually beautiful landscaping place like

a river van. if you have been it's like at 5 p.m. the summer day. it looks really beautiful, very calm, really quiet. the silence is just something that is really it gets kind my nerves and then going to visit especially when i went to see billy you know you talk about it in the book and you capture i, i made a point not to research who billy eric was, what had happened to him at all, to the point that, you know, how he looked like. and so the first time i went there, i, you know, you get escorted all the way through to. and then on the way there, i was like thinking, my gosh, like, i don't know who this person, like what this person was like, how will i know who this person is and walking into a unit to there's this cool glass window door. and then and then i saw somebody wait, like peeking in, seeing really pensively. and i realized, okay, that's probably billion. you know, we sat down and chatted, but it was so for somebody was coming in visiting for the first time. and i had no experience at all coming. that was my first time going into into the prison i had no

clue what to talk to him about. and i'm curious for to share a little bit about what you found when you went there and who is that. yeah. so when went the first time i went with with david to a reference to the man named allie injuries and we went see the man that they had been visiting regularly. he was a man named terry king and and who same as you. i had not? you know, i think i probably had read maybe a bit of a court or something like this, but i hadn't done the kind of deep googling that you might do. and i'm not really sure why. normally that is what i would do, but i guess i just decided i'm going to go out here and, you know, meet this person and without kind of researching them the way that i wouldn't do to you when we met or whatever. and we you know we went out there and. terry kind of emerged from this

from this back back in the unit into the visitation gallery, just wearing a white t shirt and the sort of doc pants and this manila folder, manila envelope and produced a bag of microwave popcorn from it and gave me a hug and was just like, you know, i have this popcorn and i know it's for some reason i think about that quite a bit because it was it was a very i think, maybe imagined something more formal or more kind of serious. you know, it's a very sort of heavy place, but it was not a heavy interaction. it was a very light, you know, kind of friendly experience. and, you know, a little microwave there in the corner and a cooler of water and some toys for kids if that if they come and he popped his popcorn and poured it out on napkins for all of us to share and we just sat there probably an hour and a half, you know, two, 2 hours, whatever it ends up being and talking and from the very

beginning, the thing i think i think terry and me and some of the other guys who are out there that have had visitors, the sort of the free world, as they call it, was very, i think, aware that people that come to visit him have a lot of questions that they're uncomfortable asking. you know because it's a it's a it's a very sort of relationship. at the beginning, you know, everything about this person and they don't anything about you. so it's it's it can be sort of strange. and he just kept repeating me, you know, ask anything you want and you can ask me anything you want. and. the one thing i always laugh about is about, you know, middle midway through our conversation, i started to feel really comfortable. you know, i told him stuff about my life. you know, we're talking about, i don't know, and family and this kind of thing and i, i was kind of just overwhelmed by how like,